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Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Thu Aug 24, 2000 10:00 pm


Now that the airplanes that could make the long, long way are about to come, what do you think. Is there a demand for routes like SYD - FRA, SYD - LHR ???
If so, how often ?? How long would it appr. take ?? Will the A340-500 also be so 'slow' like the others ???

Cheers, B737-700
 
koopas
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Thu Aug 24, 2000 10:22 pm

Actually, Air France started with ORY-SYD service a while back on 747. Don't know if it's still available though.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Thu Aug 24, 2000 11:20 pm

Actually, LHR-SYD is one of the world's most popular international routes! However, due to the limits of the 747-400, flights by BA, QF and VS usually make a fuel stop at either BKK or SIN flying both directions.

The Airbus A340-500 or Boeing 777-200 Longer-Range could probably fly LHR-SYD non-stop, but so far BA, QF and VS hasn't ordered these planes yet.
 
AFa340-300E
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Sure There Is.

Fri Aug 25, 2000 4:37 am

Hello,

Koopas, I think you're wrong about the Air France service to Australia. They had a service to Australia (SYD) from 1991 until 1995 using a 747-400 departing CDG, after their merger with UTA.

There sure is a market between Europe and Australia. The best example being the Kangaroo Routes (the routes linking the UK and Australia), which are really profitable for both freight and passengers.

For example: Qantas Airways will soon offer three daily flights between SYD and LHR using 747-400s.

Qantas operates flights to some European destinations like LHR, CDG, FRA and AMS if I'm correct.

European airlines present in Australia (with their own aircraft) are British Airways, Alitalia*, KLM, Olympic Airways and AOM.

* using a KLM aircraft, if the deal is still worth.

People from Australia, or anywhere else, will surely give you some details about this market.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
dia77
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RE: Sure There Is.

Fri Aug 25, 2000 4:57 am

Melbourne has an immense Greek population. I'm sure it could support a nonstop flight to Athens. Surprisingly enough, Olympic plans to pull out of Australia.
 
QF747
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RE: Sure There Is.

Fri Aug 25, 2000 8:01 am

Hi,

You are right DIA77. I think it might be the third largest greek population in the world or something like that.
I have been on the viewing deck when Olympic Airways flights are departing and I can tell you there is very little room on the deck due to the people who have come to send off their friends and relatives.

Perhaps they are experiencing the problems because people don't want large number of stopovers and OA fly:
ATH-BKK-SYD-MEL and then MEL-SYD-BKK-ATH.

Perhaps they might want to fly through MEL and SYD only one Eg. ATH-BKK-SYD-MEL and then MEL-BKK-ATH. Anyway this is only my opinion.


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tullamarine
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 9:20 am

The A345 and 777LR will not be able to fly SYD-LHR. PER-LHR is easily achievable as are flight from MEL and SYD to Eastern Europe. SYD-FRA is possible though I don't know if there will be any seasonal load restrictions on the westbound flights.
717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
 
cedarjet
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All The Airlines On The Route

Fri Aug 25, 2000 10:35 am

OA indeed fly a triangular route: Athens - BKK - Sydney - Melbourne - BKK - Athens. Since they fly to Aus twice a week, one flight goes to MEL first and the other to SYD first.

Lauda also fly 777s twice or three times a week to Sydney and Melbourne via BKK from Vienna, and like OA, it's a triangular route.

Don't forget that many (perhaps more than 50%) pax on the route use airlines based somewhere along the route. Options for travel from London to Sydney include the following (airline, equipment outbound first leg + equipment outbound second leg, hub city and tech stops):

BA 747-400 tech stop BKK
QF 747-400 tech stop BKK
KLM EQV + 747-400 change in AMS tech stop BKK or SIN
Alitalia EQV + 747-200 change in Milan tech stop BKK
Olympic A300 + A340 change in ATH tech stop BKK
JAT until the Balkans war 727 + DC10 change in Belgrade 2 stops en route
Lauda 737 + 777 change in Vienna tech stop BKK
MEA til they sold 747s (occasionally still with A310) change in Beirut tech stop KL
Gulf Air A330 + 767/A340 change in Bahrein tech stop SIN
Emirates 777 + 777/A330 change in DXB tech stop ?
Air-India 747-400 change in BOM
Thai 747-400 + MD11 change in BKK
Singapore 747-400s change in SIN
Malaysia 747-400s change in KL
Philippines (not sure if serving London now) 747-200s change in Manila
Garuda 747-200/-400/MD11 change in Jakarta misc stops incl Mideast and Bali
SAA 747-400 change in Jo'burg tech stop PER
Egyptair EQV + EQV change in Cairo tech stop BKK
United EQV + 747-400 change in LA or SFO
JAL 747-400 + 747-200 change in Narita or Osaka
All Nippon 747-400 + 747-200 change in Narita or Osaka
Aeroflot (may have discontinued SYD) A310 + A310 change in Moscow tech stop KL
Virgin/Ansett interchange A340 + 747-400 change in HK
Koreanair 747-400 + MD11 change in Seoul
Cathay Pacific 747-400 + 747-400 change in HK
Aerolineas Argentinas 747-200 + 747-200 change in Buenos Aires tech stop Auckland
Air New Zealand 747-400 + 747-400 tech stop LAX change in Auckland
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cedarjet
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Forgot Both Chinas And Brunei - D'oh!

Fri Aug 25, 2000 10:42 am

Forgot the Taiwanese, Chinese and Brunei

1. I think Eva fly to Sydney, certainly do London (747-400 LHR-VIE-BKK-TPE).

2. China Air Lines don't fly to the UK but sell loads of seats feeding into their AMS-BKK-TPE service (747-400 or MD11) using British Midland, Air UK et al.

3. Of course Air China fly Heathrow to Beijing (747-200 or -400) and Beijing to Sydney (747-200). No tech stops.

4. Royal Brunei fly LHR-FRA-DXB-SIN-Brunei (something Seri Begawan?!) with connections on to Brisbane, Darwin and possibly Sydney (all 767-300 except Darwin is 757).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 3:02 pm

Right now, the big goal is for the first airliner that can fly LHR-SYD in both directions year-round non-stop.

Because the A3XX-100R has a range of 16,400 km (8840 nautical miles), it may become the first plane to actually achieve this, though QF and VS may have to reduce the pax/cargo load slightly (from 555 to 510 pax) and replace it with larger fuel tanks to achieve this.

Remember, that Boeing 747-400 has demonstrated it can fly LHR-SYD non-stop on an near-empty plane (the flight time was just under 18 hours); given the longer range of the A3XX-100R the dream of flying from London to Sydney non-stop may become reality within seven years.
 
Guest

RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 3:06 pm


Cool, a LH flight from FRA to SYD nonstop with an A340-500 would really be great !!!
 
B727-200
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 4:00 pm


The flight from LHR-SYD took 20 hours, 9 minutes and 5 seconds to be precise. It was an 18,001km trip (youch!!).

There is no doubt that the potential for Europe-Australia non-stop is huge. As has been stated above, you only have to look at the number of connections or stopovers via BKK, NRT, HKG, KUL to see what potential lies there. There is also a lot of business traffic filling the more comfy chairs toward the front ($cher-ching$).

My question is always on just how long can you put 400 to 500 people in a steel tube at 40,000 feet before they go nuts? Air-rage is becoming almost as big a social problem as road-rage these days.

Oh, one more thing, Melbourne is touted as having the second largest Greek population behind Athens. Quite happy with that too as Greek food is superb!!!!!

Have a good weekend everybody,
B727-200.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 4:37 pm

If a LHR-SYD flight is going to take 20 hours non-stop flying, we may run into a problem of the flight crew and cabin crew being able to operate for 20 hours (even in shifts) and the big issue of having serve what amounts to THREE meals on one flight. Gawd, I hate to imagine how they're going to figure out the in-flight catering for such a incredibly long flight!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 7:29 pm

I think you overestimate the demand for nonstop Europe - Aus traffic. Most people I know who fly the route like to get off for an hour and stretch their legs in Singapore or BKK. There are health problems with having elderly people sit down that long - a friend who's a QF flight attendent on the route says they offload someone at BKK on every single flight she's ever done (hundreds) because of chest pains or other problems. The crew thing is a very good point as well.

Plus, many tourists only make such a big trip once in their lives, and take advantage of it by stopping over for a few days in Hong Kong or Bangkok. I would say a third of leisure travellers between Europe and Aus see something of SE Asia on their way through. And for a company, it's expensive to send an executive all that way, so it is often combined with another country. And for those travelling to Adelaide or Darwin, they can change planes up there in Asia and don't have to fly to Sydney then west again to their destination.

There is a market for nonstop service but it is not the dominant market. Assuming crew duty problems can be overcome, the ideal size for a nonstop aircraft would be a 777, no bigger. The A3XX will stop in Asia.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Joni
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RE: Cedarjet

Fri Aug 25, 2000 7:48 pm


You may have a point, besides a LHR-SYD route probably could not carry a full load of passengers, which tends to make a ticket more expensive.

A 345 or 772LR might be very good on that route, if they can fly it. (And they'll be available sooner than 3X1R, too)

I vaguely remember Singapore plans to seat only about 250 pax on their 345s, does anyone know how much this would affect the range? Airbus reports a range of just over 16000km with 313 pax.

 
Guest

RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 9:08 pm

The Europe - Australia air market is arguably the most competitive in the world.

Current Euro-Australia operators are...

British Airways *(eff Oct 27) SYD-SIN-LHR daily 744 / SYD-BKK-LHR daily 744

Qantas (eff Oct 27) SYD-BKK-LHR daily 744/SYD-MEL-SIN-LHR daily 744#/MEL-SIN-LHR daily 744/SYD-BKK-FRA 4 a week 744 /SYD-SIN-FRA 3 a week 744 /SYD-MEL-BKK-FCO 3 a week 743 /SYD-SIN-CDG 3 a week 744

KLM SYD-SIN-AMS 3 a week 744

Alitalia SYD-BKK-MXP 3 a week 742

AOM French Airlines NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY 2 a week D10

Lauda Air SYD-MEL-KUL-VIE 3 a week / SYD-BKK-VIE 1 a week 777

Olympic Airways SYD-MEL-BKK-ATH 1 a week/MEL-SYD-BKK-ATH 1 a week 340

plus....

interline connections with:

Singapore Airlines
Malaysia Airlines
Cathay Pacific
Thai
SriLankan
Emirates
Gulf Air
Garuda Indonesia
Royal Brunei
JAL
ANA
EVA Air
China Airlines
China Eastern
Air China
Egypt Air
SAA
Aerolineas Argentinas
United Airlines
Air New Zealand
Canadi>n Airlines / Air Canada
Canada3000
Air Mauritius
Finnair (codeshare with Qantas)
Swissair (codeshare with Qantas)
Lufthansa (codeshare with SQ & TG)
Austrian Airlines (codeshare with Lauda)
Virgin Atlantic (codeshare with Malaysian)
Ansett Australia (codeshare with SQ)

Now, I know you're thinking "huh?" well all the above airlines have published Australia-Europe fares (yes! even Canada3000!!) There are even more like Air France & SAS that have no codeshare services to Australia but still publish fares in conjunction with other carriers.

Cheers  

* = until October 27 2000, BA flights operate 3 a week LHR-SIN-SYD/4 a week LHR-SIN-BNE/daily LHR-BKK-SYD
# = until October 27 2000, QF31/32 op's 3 a week, becoming daily after this date.
 
Guest

RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 9:21 pm

XQF

Scrub Alitalia as they have announced they are ceasing operations to Sydney and Bangkok as of (I think) October 30, and concentrating on other destinations, including increasing frequencies to Delhi.

Cheers
 
Guest

RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Fri Aug 25, 2000 9:36 pm

I think that Olympic could do ATH to SYD non-stop if they buy 345s or 772lrs in the future. They are much closer than most of Europe.

Cheers Gregg
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Sat Aug 26, 2000 11:04 am

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think the airlines may not want to fly LHR/LGW-SYD on what amounts to a 20 hour non-stop flight.

The reasons are this:

1. They'll need more space for lavatory holding tanks and larger trash bins, and that adds to the weight of the plane.

2. They'll need more space for food because they may have to serve what amounts to THREE meals on a 20-hour flight. Again, that adds to the weight of the plane.

3. Passengers do NOT want to be cooped up in a plane for 20 hours straight, even in the roomier First and Business classes.

4. Flight crews and cabin crews--even working in shifts--also do not want to be cooped up for 20 hours straight.

5. I'm not sure if the airlines want to reduce their pax/cargo capacity and add more fuel capacity to A345's, A3X1R's, 772LR's and 747X's just to do such a flight.

In short, I think the "technical stops" at DXB, BKK, SIN and HKG will continue. The reasons are as follows:

1. Passengers will want to get off the plane to take a walk and stretch out their limbs, especially when flight is longer than 10 hours.

2. There is less demand for larger lavatory tanks, larger trash bins, and more space to store food for in-flight meals.

3. Flight crews and cabin crews can be changed at the "technical stop."

4. Because the flights are shorter, there is not a compromise on passenger and cargo load. An A3XX-100 can easily fly LHR/LGW-BKK-SYD on a full 555-575 passenger/cargo load with no limitations regardless of weather and prevailing winds.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Sat Aug 26, 2000 10:03 pm

XQF, you should read the thread before posting - see my identical but more detailed post above yours. Thank you, however, for reminding me of AOM, Air Mauritius, SriLankan and the Canadians. Are you a regular on this route as well?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Aware
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RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Sat Aug 26, 2000 10:05 pm

Just a correction to the QF schedule above:
SYD-SIN-FRA: 4 times a week (not SYD-BKK-FRA)
MEL-BKK-FRA: 3 times a week (not SYD-SIN-FRA)
 
Guest

RE: Is There A Demand For Sydney - Europe?

Sat Aug 26, 2000 10:21 pm

Cedarjet;
I am a perfectionist, and I will be pedantic and point out that: the tech. stop for EK on the DXB-SYD sector is SIN with, as you said, a 777 or A330.

You can fly AR to SYD, ex-LHR, but the EZE-SYD sector is normally operated by an A340, not a 742.

Regards,
Picard

PS-You're dead right about people wanting a stop-over en-route-I choose SIN over BKK though.

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