skuertz
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Cost Of Winglets

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:49 pm

I understand winglets are used for fuel efficiency; can anyone give me an idea what the cost is to install these on all types of aircrafts? Thanks.
 
Captain.MD-11
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:57 pm

$500,000 usd on the 737 as a retro-fit. Expensive option, but can reduce fuel burn, creating a saving of approx 1,000KG per 6 block hours.
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HT
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting Skuertz (Thread starter):
can anyone give me an idea what the cost is to install these

From http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm for a B737 (-700, -800):
Winglets cost about $725,000 USD and take about 1 week to install which costs an extra $25-80,000 USD.

Quoting Skuertz (Thread starter):
on all types of aircrafts?

Not available for ALL types of a/c ...
-HT
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miamiair
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:01 pm

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skuertz
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:53 pm

Thanks for the responses...
 
BooDog
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:50 am

They are currently offered for the:

737-300
737-500
737-700
737-800
737-900
757-200

Alaska Airlines is performing the first 737-900 retrofits. The first plane should be finished before Thanksgiving.

Delta was the 'launch customer' for the 767-300 winglets. IIRC, they ordered 25 sets for their 767-300ER's. Will be available in late 2008.

Approximate cost to retrofit the plane BEFORE labor costs
737-300 and -500 = $500,000 usd

Quoting HT (Reply 2):
From http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm for a B737 (-700, -800):
Winglets cost about $725,000 USD and take about 1 week to install which costs an extra $25-80,000 USD.

I believe they're up to about $800,000 (before installation) usd for 737-700, 800, and 900.

757-200; about $1 million usd

767-300ER: are gonna be between $1.5 and $2 million usd a pair.

Installation costs? Don't know much about it. Boeing made some kind of slight wing change design to the 737NG's; It takes longer to install winglets on the pre-switch 737NG planes than the post-switch 737NG planes. Hopefully someone else can shed some light on this.
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rampguy
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:39 am

How are winglets installed on an aircraft that did not orginally come with them? DL just installed winglets on Ship 3744 (737-800) recently. How was it that this particular aircraft was chosen to be the first to get these winglets?
 
AviationNut
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:58 am

I apologise for my ignorance and I don't want to "Hijack" the thead subject, but can someone tell me the Name Of The Triangular Structures on the end of some Airbus Aircraft (A380, A321, A320, A319, A318, A310 and it seems some later manufatured A300s) . I understand they are designed to stablise the aircraft in flight, but I have never heard them refered to by name.

I remember an A380 having contact with a Hangar in Bangkok and the "Triangular Structure" was simply removed and the aircraft continued on it way.


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Quoting HT (Reply 2):
HT

Thanks for the information on the Winglets HT, it is well appreciated.

Kind Regards,

AviationNut  Big grin
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seabosdca
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:11 am



Quoting AviationNut (Reply 7):
the Name Of The Triangular Structures on the end of some Airbus Aircraft (A380, A321, A320, A319, A318, A310 and it seems some later manufatured A300s)

Wingtip fences. Less effective than true winglets for most applications, but far lighter (requiring less wing reinforcement) and cheaper. Airbus recently determined that the net benefit of switching to winglets on the A320, after necessary wing reinforcement, would not be worthwhile. By contrast, the 737NGs were designed to accommodate winglets, and the 757-200 wing has enough extra strength to do so.

Quoting AviationNut (Reply 7):
I remember an A380 having contact with a Hangar in Bangkok and the "Triangular Structure" was simply removed and the aircraft continued on it way.

747-400s, A330s, and A340s, at least, can also fly safely without a winglet. There is a fuel burn penalty for doing so.
 
BooDog
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting RampGuy (Reply 6):
How was it that this particular aircraft was chosen to be the first to get these winglets?

It could be a wide range of things... #3744 could have been in for an extended maintenance, etc. Also It could've been random, too. The plane was overnighting at the airport where the retrofits take place. You'll need a Delta insider to answer that question.

(deleted the raked wingtips section because the post above explains it better.  Smile )

[Edited 2007-11-16 21:20:36]
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AviationNut
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:55 am



Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 8):
747-400s, A330s, and A340s, at least, can also fly safely without a winglet. There is a fuel burn penalty for doing so.

Thanks mate, appreciate your reply. It cuts out just a little more ignorance from my life!

Kind Regards

aviationNut  Big grin
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:42 am



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Alaska Airlines is performing the first 737-900 retrofits. The first plane should be finished before Thanksgiving.

You got a valid source for this? The last time I checked, AS put the 739 winglet retrofit plans on indefinate hold. But this was last August. There were numerous threads about it.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
BigJimFX
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:44 am



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
They are currently offered for the:

737-300
737-500
737-700
737-800
737-900
757-200

I remember reading an article where AA planned on putting them on their 763's. Any info on that?
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Joost
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:37 am



Quoting BigJimFX (Reply 12):

I remember reading an article where AA planned on putting them on their 763's. Any info on that?

They will be available soon, and expensive.

From http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products/programlistprices.html

737-700/800/900: $850,000
737-300/500: $550,000
757-200: $900,000
767-300ER/FL $1,850,000

For the 737NG aircraft, the downtime differs greately between the first aircraft produced (LN 1-778 for -800) and the more recent aircraft (LN 778 and up for the -800). The more recent aircraft have a provisioned wing, and winglets can be installed in 4 days. The earlier aircraft need wing reinforcements and they have a typical downtime of 6 days (-700) to 8 days (-800).
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:41 am

Don't forget the cost of downtime unless its going to be out of service for other needed work at the same time. Taking an aircraft out of service for a week or more can have a heavy impact on the bottom line.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:03 am

I might be wrong,but i remember the 777 when they first came out there was an idea there to add winglets.
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Aleksandar
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:07 am



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
They are currently offered for the:

737-300
737-500
737-700
737-800
737-900
757-200

What about 737-400 and 737-600?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 16):
What about 737-400...

There are not very many 734's to sustain a retrofit, the only two carriers in the US that operate the 734 is US & AS. There as another thread about it as well. The 734 wouldn't really have a signifant return if winglets were slapped onto them. I forgot as to why, I think it has to do with the length of the fuse perpendicular to the wings length?? I forgot.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
BooDog
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:14 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Alaska Airlines is performing the first 737-900 retrofits. The first plane should be finished before Thanksgiving.

You got a valid source for this? The last time I checked, AS put the 739 winglet retrofit plans on indefinate hold. But this was last August. There were numerous threads about it.



Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
From http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.co....html

found it on that website. Turns out AS is already done...

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.co...s/pdf/news/07.11.15_APB_Alaska.pdf

Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
For the 737NG aircraft, the downtime differs greately between the first aircraft produced (LN 1-778 for -800) and the more recent aircraft (LN 778 and up for the -800). The more recent aircraft have a provisioned wing, and winglets can be installed in 4 days. The earlier aircraft need wing reinforcements and they have a typical downtime of 6 days (-700) to 8 days (-800).

yeah. that's what I was referring to. I hope someone can give us more info on what the "provisioned wings" are.

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 16):
What about 737-400 and 737-600?

the reason why is probably what Airframe said. Not enough of a market.

Quoting BigJimFX (Reply 12):
remember reading an article where AA planned on putting them on their 763's. Any info on that?

Always read the entire post first!  Smile Go back and finish reading Reply #5.
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AAR90
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:18 pm

I had the pleasure of AA's "Fuel Czar" on my jumpseat last week and we discussed this subject briefly.

Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Boeing made some kind of slight wing change design to the 737NG's; It takes longer to install winglets on the pre-switch 737NG planes than the post-switch 737NG planes. Hopefully someone else can shed some light on this.

BAP offered installation in 21 days originally. AA Maint. was doing them in 9 days. BAP has now adopted the AA procedure and will install (complete retrofit) in 9 days. Note: time frames are for a complete retrofit to an early model -800 with L.A.S. (significantly beef up the outer wing structure), newer delivery planes are built with the stronger wing structure so less modification is required and therefore, less time to install winglets.

Quoting BigJimFX (Reply 12):
I remember reading an article where AA planned on putting them on their 763's. Any info on that?

Tentatively scheduled to begin flight testing later this year and into next year. AA & Boeing are hoping for delivery in late 2008 or early 2009.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting BooDog (Reply 18):
...found it on that website. Turns out AS is already done...

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.co...a.pdf

Thank you for that article. But you said your reply #5:

Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Alaska Airlines is performing the first 737-900 retrofits. The first plane should be finished before Thanksgiving.

The latter is incorrect. The article states:

Quoting Aviation Partners Boeing website:
Alaska Airlines already operates winglets on its 737-700 and 737-800 fleets, and plans to retrofit most of its 737-900 winglets by late 2008.

That doesn't mean by thanksgiving, nor does it mean by Christmas. Late 2008 could mean anytime between August through December of 2008. (Edit add: N302AS and N305AS will be the only two that will not recieve the retrofit because the wing isn't strong enough for the retrofit or something along those lines, IIRC.)

Also, the article title is a bit misleading. Lion Air is currently flying the first 739 with winglets, but it is an ER version.

[Edited 2007-11-17 07:47:40]
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:11 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Also, the article title is a bit misleading. Lion Air is currently flying the first 739 with winglets, but it is an ER version.

The 739 and 739ER are two different models.

Much like the 737-700 and 737-700ER are NOT interchangable as far as ownership goes. Same with the 777-200ER and 777-200LR. Seem like the same thing at a glance but the differences are profound if you are the
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:13 pm



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 21):
The 739 and 739ER are two different models

I am very, very well aware of that. They use the same wing, IIRC.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:51 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
I might be wrong,but i remember the 777 when they first came out there was an idea there to add winglets.

No, originally Boeing was offering that folding wing option on the B-777-200 and B-777-200ER. No one ever ordered that option because of the weight penalty.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 21):
Much like the 737-700 and 737-700ER are NOT interchangable as far as ownership goes. Same with the 777-200ER and 777-200LR. Seem like the same thing at a glance but the differences are profound

True. But the big external difference for the B-777-200ER and B-777-200LR is the LR sports raked wingtips.

Is there anyone looking at retrofitting winglets or raked wingtips for the B-777-200ER /-300ER?
 
masseybrown
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:00 pm



Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
They will be available soon, and expensive.

In the quaint old days when oil was less than $50/bbl, the airlines were estimating that winglets would pay for themselves in a year to a year and a half. Since then oil has doubled and AP/B have raised their prices a bit, so now winglets probably pay back the investment in less than a year.

Depending on balance sheet needs, an airline could now classify them an expense, not an investment. Another tool in managing the profit numbers.  Smile
 
rootsair
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:50 pm

Which winglets are most expensive. Raked wingtips, winglets or wingtip fences

 airplane  wave 
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AAR90
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:21 pm



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 24):
Since then oil has doubled and AP/B have raised their prices a bit, so now winglets probably pay back the investment in less than a year.

According to that same Fuel Czar conversation, AA's 738 winglet "payback" is "less than 7 months."
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albird87
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:33 pm



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Delta was the 'launch customer' for the 767-300 winglets. IIRC, they ordered 25 sets for their 767-300ER's. Will be available in late 2008

I think AA are the launch customer actually.... Well just saying this as i do beleive that AA are using one of their 763s for tests. Delta soon jumped onto this band wagon and said they would install the winglets on their aircraft.
 
justplanesmart
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:11 am



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Alaska Airlines is performing the first 737-900 retrofits. The first plane should be finished before Thanksgiving.

I saw one last Wednesday (11/14) morning coming into SEA. Thought it was one of their 737-800's until I took a closer look and discovered otherwise. I am pretty sure the aircraft was N318AS, but holding the binoculars steady in the morning chill is not an easy task, so it might have been N319AS.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
BooDog
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:30 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):

 blush   blush  Lesson learned. Before I try to back up an IIRC with an article, I'll make sure to read the article first!!! LOL.
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:19 pm



Quoting BooDog (Reply 29):

Please re-read the latter part of reply 20. I know what the article says, dude. What lesson was learned?? You provided an article, I read it and paraphrased it.....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:54 am



Quoting BooDog (Reply 5):
Boeing made some kind of slight wing change design to the 737NG's; It takes longer to install winglets on the pre-switch 737NG planes than the post-switch 737NG planes. Hopefully someone else can shed some light on this.

The original 737NG wasn't designed to have APB winglets (the wing has the strength for other reasons but the attachment fittings aren't there). As a result, the regular wingtip is essentially non-structural. To put a winglet on those aircraft you have to take off the original wingtip, do some structural reinforcement so that what's left can carry the loads from the winglet, put on the winglet attachment bits, and then install the winglet.

More recent builds have winglet provisions from the factory. That means the structural reinforcement and most of the attachment bits are already there. It's basically just pull off the wingtip and bolt on the winglet. Obviously, there's a lot more detail than that, but that's the gist of it.

Quoting RampGuy (Reply 6):
How are winglets installed on an aircraft that did not orginally come with them? DL just installed winglets on Ship 3744 (737-800) recently. How was it that this particular aircraft was chosen to be the first to get these winglets?

It's usually whichever aircraft happens to be in heavy check at the time they're ready to do the first modification. I've done a lot of "first of" installs and we usually know when we'll be ready and just look at the heavy check scheduled and pick an airplane that falls in the window. It's not unusual to slide from airplane to airplane once or twice as things shuffle around.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
The 734 wouldn't really have a signifant return if winglets were slapped onto them. I forgot as to why, I think it has to do with the length of the fuse perpendicular to the wings length??

The 734 is the heaviest of the 737 classics but has the same wing. As a result, I don't think the wing has enough residual strength to support winglets.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 25):
Which winglets are most expensive. Raked wingtips, winglets or wingtip fences

Wingtip fences are cheapest, then raked wingtips, then winglets. Fences are easy to build and easy to engineer. Raked wingtips are harder to build but still relatively easy to engineer (since they're basically extensions to the existing wing). Winglets are even harder to build and they have the hardest engineering.

Tom.
 
RyDawg82
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:01 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
You got a valid source for this? The last time I checked, AS put the 739 winglet retrofit plans on indefinate hold. But this was last August. There were numerous threads about it.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
That doesn't mean by thanksgiving, nor does it mean by Christmas. Late 2008 could mean anytime between August through December of 2008. (Edit add: N302AS and N305AS will be the only two that will not recieve the retrofit because the wing isn't strong enough for the retrofit or something along those lines, IIRC.)

Also, the article title is a bit misleading. Lion Air is currently flying the first 739 with winglets, but it is an ER version.

Not sure where the confusion is, Alaska *has* introduced its first 737-900 with winglets before the holidays.

Sources:
http://www.alaskasworld.com/newsroom...s/asstories/AS_20071115_080921.asp
http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.co...s/pdf/news/07.11.15_APB_Alaska.pdf (already quoted)

Also, as Lion Air was the first to fly the 737-900ER with winglets, Alaska is the first (of the 3 airlines to order winglets for the the standard -900) to fly the 737-900 with winglets.

-R
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
pilotboi
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:18 am

What about the cost of winglets on a CRJ? Of course I know that they come standard - but there's still a price that they cost (i.e. if they need to be replaced). So does anyone know how much a pair would cost?
 
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fxramper
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:33 am

Toured TUL; it's worth it for AA.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c291/ringo3727/738winglet-4.jpg


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c291/ringo3727/738winglet-2.jpg

I've posted before on this topic, AA among others, uses winglets well.

 twocents 
 
nema
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:40 pm

Found this a really interesting thread with some qualified answers.

It has surprised me particularly regarding the cost of fitting winglets, mainly because i had not considered that wing strengthening was needed. We live and learn.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:13 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
The 734 is the heaviest of the 737 classics but has the same wing. As a result, I don't think the wing has enough residual strength to support winglets

Ah, now I remember. Thanks TdScanuck!

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 32):
Not sure where the confusion is, Alaska *has* introduced its first 737-900 with winglets before the holidays.

Read the APB article....and it will tell you.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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RobK
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:59 pm

Up to $800k a piece ?!?! Get me some shares in APB, they must be absolutely coining it in at those prices.  Wow!

R
 
RyDawg82
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RE: Cost Of Winglets

Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:17 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Read the APB article....and it will tell you.

I posted two press releases that state the first AS 739 with winglets is in operation. Additionally, a fellow a.neter has spotted the bird and commented on it. Why do you insist this isn't true?
-R
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.

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