USADreamliner
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EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:00 pm

Over half of Europe's airlines including Ryanair (RYA.I: Quote, Profile, Research) could be forced to close their Web sites next year if they fail to remedy problems shown by the EU consumer affairs watchdog in a probe carried out in September.
"over 50 percent of all Web sites showed irregularities, in particular relating to price indications, contract terms and clarity of proposed conditions".

Those airlines at fault were found guilty of practices including the following:
- The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees
- Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them
- Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.
- General terms of sales are not provided in the language version used by the consumer during the booking procedure - or not available at all in any language
- No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Belgium had the worst number of incidents, with 46 of 48 Web sites investigated found to be at fault. Of the 20 Web sites probed in Austria, none was found to break EU consumer rules.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKL1361181820071113?rpc=44
 
airbazar
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:08 pm

I just hope this is the beginning of the end for all those taxes and fees not in cluded in the advertised fares.
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe? That's just misleading advertisement.
 
Analog
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:12 pm



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Belgium had the worst number of incidents, with 46 of 48 Web sites investigated found to be at fault. Of the 20 Web sites probed in Austria, none was found to break EU consumer rules.

This is a bit odd. Aren't the websites the same, or almost the same? Or do consumer protection laws only apply to offers made in the local language?
 
zTagged
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:13 pm

They should do what WN does. Put a really nice sized disclaimer that says "FARES DO NOT INCLUDE AIRPORT FEES AND A 9/11 REGULATION FEE OF UP TO $xxx", or whatever it says. That would save their skin, and it would dodge the consumer watchdog bullet.
Something awful.
 
kl911
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:14 pm



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it? Those people shouldn't be allowed to fly at all..

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Every site makes you tick the general conditions button, with a link next to showing what it is. Those boxes are never 'ticked' but people are just to lazy to read them..
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:18 pm



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them

Sounds like they are going at FR here, but FR's site clearly states the blackout dates and that there are limited numbers of seats. People can't complain if they were too slow to act on the sale.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

*cough* Easyjet *cough*
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icarus75
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:23 pm



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees

Wrong with AF : the prices when you book are with taxes so no surprises

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them

Tickets for free on AF, IB, LH, BA, KL....?????

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

Wrong again, at least with AF.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- General terms of sales are not provided in the language version used by the consumer during the booking procedure - or not available at all in any language

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:27 pm

Ryanair's website being forced to close for a bit? Well, I'm not a fan of Ryanair so....

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both

Not blind, but stupid and naive such is the average consumer. One cannot blame the European Comission or whatever for protecting the majority.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 5):
Sounds like they are going at FR here, but FR's site clearly states the blackout dates and that there are limited numbers of seats.

I think the problem is more FR continual to advertise when the seats have gone. Or the problem is that the advertising should be more specific, (Free seats to ABC, CBS, CNN but none left for KBBL and NBC - get yours now!") or similar.

[Edited 2007-11-13 11:28:39]
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varig md-11
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:27 pm



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

that's the most annoying I believe
Easyjet.fr is a specialist for this trick: the box for 1 piece of bag is ticked by default - +9€ - and so is an insurance if memory serves me right.

also quite annoying is when everything is in your mother tongue except when a pop up opens in English in the middle of the transaction! this is not fair to EU buyers who don't master English

High Speed Train tickets (Thalys competing planes on CDG-AMS) sold on French top website voyages-sncf should be targetted too because they tick by default an insurance for train tickets (+5€)

Quoting Analog (Reply 2):
Aren't the websites the same, or almost the same?

it might sound odd to an American but the sites are quite different in most cases
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Analog
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:24 pm



Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):

Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it? Those people shouldn't be allowed to fly at all..

When buying X they don't expect to have Y added to their bill without requesting it. It's like when a supermarket price tag has small print under the price label for a piece of ham that they'll add insurance to your total at the checkout and people don't have the cashier take it off.
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:20 pm

Airline websites should show the TOTAL incl credit card fee on the very first page of the screen showing the flights and price. Aer Lingus seem to have 99% of theirs compliant as do BMI. Also airlines should not be allowed to advertise fares for EUR20 when the real price incl tax and fuel charges is EUR80. Its misleading to advertise such low fares .

When I book a ticket I want to know what is going to come off my credit card as soon as I put my dates in !!! With amedments to certain airlines websites if can be done easily so there is NO excuse.
 
kl911
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:57 pm

Ah well, whatever. I just booked my 20 euro return incl taxes ticket again. This time EIN-CIA .. No hidden fee's on that one..  Smile
 
GBan
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:39 am



Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Every site makes you tick the general conditions button, with a link next to showing what it is. Those boxes are never 'ticked' but people are just to lazy to read them..

Did you check every site?

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it? Those people shouldn't be allowed to fly at all..

Disagree: Airlines not able or willing to follow some very simple rules (show full ticket price from the beginning etc.) should not be allowed to sell tickets at all..  Wink
 
commavia
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:51 am

Some of this is, I suppose, good for consumers. But I just find it scary that the government is so tightly regulating the free (or not-so-free, apparently) conduct of business. We're rapidly moving towards an unelected European federal super-state, and I'm just concerned about what they are going to try to regulate next.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees

This is the only point on here that I think has some merit. Developing an industry standard where either everyone only advertises fares with taxes, or only advertises fares without, is in concept a good idea. But I don't like that it's government-regulated. And, regardless of whether its voluntary or regulated, I think people are ultimately smart enough to figure things out on their own.

After all, if you go onto Ryanair.com and see an ad for £1 return, but then when you go to book, the total actually ends up being £70 with all the taxes and fees added in, you can end the booking process right there and go over to, say, EasyJet (just an example, not sure how they advertise fares) who is offering £65 return taxes included. It's not as if once you log onto the Ryanair website and your eyes catch sight of that £1 fare, a hand reaches out of the computer and holds a gun to your head to force you to buy the ticket. You know what you're buying before you give your credit card, or at least you should.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Offers promising tickets for free or at a low price, but such tickets are unavailable when the consumer wants to buy them

So what, now? Are we moving towards communism? Does everyone have to pay the same price for something, or are airlines now going to be responsible for changing ads - everywhere - each time a fare bucket fills up? This is just ridiculous - this is one of the fundamentals of modern business: if you had to change your advertising every time the price changed with supply and demand, you'd be changing ads every 10 seconds.

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Tick boxes for insurance or additional services are ticked "yes" by default, trapping the consumer into buying unwanted items or being included on spam mailing lists.

Well, this one I find a bit confusing. If it's a "tick box" for insurance or additional services, that tends to imply - at least to me - that it can be un-ticked.

Again, what happened to personal responsibility? If you are stupid enough to buy something without ensuring that you know exactly what you're buying (insurance, additional services and all) that's your problem. Besides, even if airlines might try and "fool" you by automatically checking boxes to opt you into email lists, to buy insurance, etc., I don't know of any airline in the western world that doesn't have that "confirmation" page at the end before you book the ticket that lists all the charges that will go on your credit card. Perhaps I'm wrong, but every ticket I've ever bought on the website of any European airline has always given you that final "confirmation" page that itemizes the base far, taxes, additional charges, etc.

You're only "trapped" as a consumer if you allow yourself to be. Again, especially on the internet, it's not as if anyone is standing there holding a gun to your head: if you put your credit card number into the website, and press "go," and you aren't absolutely 100% sure of what you're buying, that's your problem, not the airline's, and certainly not the EU's.
 
ikramerica
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:58 am



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe?

This is a myth. At most airline websites in the USA, the fare quoted contains most of the fees, other than segment/airport specific taxes that are included once you actually choose your flights.

At places like travelocity, the full price is quoted right off the bat as they price things based on your route before hand.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
varig md-11
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:25 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
Again, what happened to personal responsibility? If you are stupid enough to buy something without ensuring that you know exactly what you're buying (insurance, additional services and all) that's your problem.

might be cultural differences but I absolutely disagree
when you order a car does the dealer ticks automatically all the extra paying options for your F-150 or Honda accord waiting for you to untick them?
or is the CSA at Starbucks adding an extra 50 cent cream and 50 cent caramel by default to your beveradge waiting for you to react??
why should this apply to airfares then??
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commavia
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:32 am



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 15):
why should this apply to airfares then??

Because that's life. Businesses try and get whatever they can get out of people, and as such, some have now resorted to automatically putting passengers down for travel options they don't want/need.

It happens everywhere. I just recently tried to book a ticket on a low-fare airline here in Asia, and, just like with the examples cited in the article, the website automatically defaulted to charging me for insurance I didn't want.

But you know what? Rather than complaining or depending on the government to "protect" me, I just un-ticked the box and, once again, made sure - checked, double-checked and then rechecked again - that I knew exactly what I was getting before I inputted my credit card.

Personal responsibility. It's a good thing.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:32 am

[

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 6):
Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
The price of the ticket is first indicated without airport taxes and additional fees

Wrong with AF : the prices when you book are with taxes so no surprises



Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 6):
Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
- General terms of sales are not provided in the language version used by the consumer during the booking procedure - or not available at all in any language

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.

[quote=Icarus75,reply=6]Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
No information is given about the rights and procedures of cancellation, transferability and ability to change dates.

Wrong again, at least with AF.And I've tried several sites.

I quite like how you defend our national carrier /sarcasm.

Here are some screenshots from www.airfrance.ie (Eire is the EU, right?) :
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g220/UTA_flyinghigh/lying_pouh.jpg

Note how they advertise the "low" fare.

Also no information on the general terms of sales is provided; and info on the fare rules is not readily available, you have to search for it long and hard.

UTA  checkeredflag 
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RebelDJ
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:18 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
This is a myth.

I think what Airbazar was refering to was the practice of adding sales tax at the cashdesk for every regular purchase in stores in the US. I see this as no different to what the LCCs do with their websites.

However, regarding the rest of this topic, I also do not see how the including of taxes and charges can be done at the very start of a transaction (without making the whole process very unwieldy) - because what you pay will depend on what you buy. For instance, if you choose to buy the airlines insurance, there will be a tax on the insurance premium (at least in the UK). Also, fees and charges from airports may vary depending on travel dates. I recently booked several return flights on TUIFly at €25 return including taxes and charges on a route that regularly shows airport charges as being between €50 and €70. Obviously the airline struck a deal with the airport for my particular travel dates - but that would be such a difficule thing to put on page one of a website. People must accept some sort of personnal responsibility for what they choose to spend their money on - beware of too much government regulation.

Also, there are so many other fields where price comparison is left up to the individual - try comparing car insurance, computers especially any sort of service contract - what is included and excluded is often hidden away in the small print - well away from any check boxes! Yet people manage to choose which goods and services they want to buy every day without the government making these industries price their products in the same way.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:25 pm



Quoting RebelDJ (Reply 18):
Also, fees and charges from airports may vary depending on travel dates. I recently booked several return flights on TUIFly at €25 return including taxes and charges on a route that regularly shows airport charges as being between €50 and €70.

It is likely that the "airport charge" in question was actually an airline fuel surcharge, which appears as part of taxes and fees but is actually a cunning mechanism to charge more for the ticket. This is why this EU regulation is a good thing, airlines can no longer hide behing YQ surcharges to inflate their fares.
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OA260
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:26 pm



Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 17):
(Eire is the EU, right?) :

No but the ''Republic of Ireland'' Is  Wink
 
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zeke
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:46 pm



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I just hope this is the beginning of the end for all those taxes and fees not in cluded in the advertised fares.
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe? That's just misleading advertisement.

I find it misleading when I walk into a shop in North America, when I try and buy something. I pay more than the listed price, they add tax ontop of the listed price. And because they don't pay their staff properly or at all, I then have to tip the people to prop up their wages.

I see a double standard here, a practice which stems from North America, is being called misleading advertising by a North American.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
commavia
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:50 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 21):
I see a double standard here, a practice which stems from North America, is being called misleading advertising

Woh, woh, let's slow down there.

This is hardly a "North American" phenomena at all. It's nothing of the sort. This "misleading advertising" is done all over the world, in virtually every place I've ever been - it's hardly an export from the U.S. or North America. In fact, I'd say it's far, far more worse (more misleading) in Europe, as it's a rarity in the U.S. to find $1 round-trip fares advertised, only to later find that there are actually $70 in taxes. That happens all the time in Europe, on the other hand. Just ask Ryanair.
 
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zeke
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:56 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
In fact, I'd say it's far, far more worse (more misleading) in Europe, as it's a rarity in the U.S. to find $1 round-trip fares advertised, only to later find that there are actually $70 in taxes.

Every time I walk into any shop in north america (except in ANC), I always seem to pay tax ontop of goods purchased, Canada and the lower 48 seem to be the same.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
BDKLEZ
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:05 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
No but the ''Republic of Ireland'' Is

Oh, I have these sorts of conversations, especially with a fellow countryman. But if we want to get to the nitty gritty, then although Éire is widely, and incorrectly used in reference to the Republic of Ireland, the term in fact refers to the island of Ireland as a whole and as such it can be argued that Éire (in geographical terms, not political) is within the EU, although separated by a land border between two member states of the EU.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both???? Before booking you go over the total amount, details, and then you have to press 'confirm' again..... not so difficult is it?

I agree. Furthermore, I am very much of the opinion of supporting the carriers in this respect. Why should they in fact be required to advertise all-inclusive fares, when in certain cases the majority of the fees are not charged by the airline but are required to be collected by the carrier on behalf of national/regional governments, airport authorities etc.

Diligence when making a reservation on-line, is all that is required to ensure a full understanding of how much and why you are paying for the various elements which make up what will eventually appear on your credit card statement.
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davescj
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:08 pm



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I understand the practice in the US

I agree. The best I've found for complete disclosure is ORBITZ. They give BOTH the price AND (under the base fare) the total cost with fees/taxes included.

As to websites, I would think that they would be down less than 24 hrs before they are up with the "new" regulations what ever they are.

What I find strange are these CC fees. When I book BA.com, I don't get one. Perhaps cause I"m booking from the states?


Dave
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BCAL
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:22 pm

Why the EU regulators are singling out airlines, and not other service industries, is a case of double standards.

Like it has been mentioned in an earlier thread, purchase many items in North America and they add sales tax at the till. If you buy over the web from US, chances are that not only will they add sales tax and packaging/delivery/shipping charges but you will also get an invoice from FedEx or UPS after delivery saying that they have "paid" the import duties for you and you now owe them money. Why was this information not given when you originally placed your order? It might have been in the small print, just in the same way that an airline has small print in their terms and conditions.

The above example might be beyond the jurisdiction of the EU but closer to home when you go out to a restaurant for a meal that is advertised at say GBP15, is that the price you pay? By the time they add drinks, extra courses, service charges, cover charges etc the bill is closer to GBP30. Drinks are optional (in the same way as the LCCs now say putting baggage in the hold is 'optional') but service and cover charges are just the same as airport, security and fuel surcharges, yet is there any fuss about the prices displayed by restaurants?
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theginge
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:34 pm

How are the EU going to force sites to close down? I think I can guess what Ryan Airs response to that would be. Begins and ends with F!!!
 
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distanthorizon
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:48 pm



Quoting Theginge (Reply 27):
How are the EU going to force sites to close down? I think I can guess what Ryan Airs response to that would be. Begins and ends with F!!!

If it's illegal (and IT IS, at least in the EU), than a court order (or a simple administrative one) should end these "smart" practices.

DH
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varig md-11
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:55 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Because that's life.

jeez, I never thought about this obvious answer  faint 

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Businesses try and get whatever they can get out of people, and as such, some have now resorted to automatically putting passengers down for travel options they don't want/need.

yeah....you might call it "Personal responsibility" of the buyers I call it crookery attempt from the seller

it reminds me of this selling technique at Foot Locker's : if you buy a pair of Nike they try to convince you buying socks and soles  sarcastic  only difference, they don't add it to the total sum by default

anyways, I won't convince you but apparently the EU see it MY way  laughing 
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sstsomeday
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:56 pm



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
I understand the practice in the US (but don't approve of it), where almost nothing includes the tax in the listed price, but in Europe? That's just misleading advertisement.

In Canada as well... Zoom, on their Canadian website, can advertise fares from Canada to the UK which are about a third! of what the consumer actually has to pay, once taxes, fees and fuel charges are added. Also it's exasperating to continually be bombarded with deceitful "specials" from Air Canada, because it is lawful in Canada for them to quote false prices which do not include these hidden fees.

I would further opine that the practice of advertising a one way fare, but base it on a round trip ticket, is completely false advertising because it suggests a figure that no one would ever pay. It's completely non-sensical, and is designed only to catch consumer attention but has NOTHING to do with reality. Are we supposed to WALK back...?

If someone advertised a car for sale, would it be at all logical to advertise half the price of the car, so long as you also buy the other half? Nobody would put up with that.

I'm glad the watchdogs are becoming so strict in the EU. I wish it would happen in North America.
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BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:05 pm

The extent to which the EU sticks it's nose in absolutely everything never ceases to amaze me. We must be the most over legislated people on the planet. Has everyone lost the ability for independent thought or individual responsibilty? Now our masters in Brussels need to protect us from the internet.  Yeah sure

If you had to stick your credit card details in at the beginning without any chance to cancel, I could see the point, but you don't. Only at the very end do you do so. Handy hint = too expensive, don't buy. The choice is 100% your own.
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varig md-11
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:14 pm



Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 31):
The extent to which the EU sticks it's nose in absolutely everything never ceases to amaze me

if the EU is sticking its nose in this, it is certainly because they received tons of complaints from people not as smart as you could be with your " individual responsibility"

human society is not (or should not be) the survival of the fittest and/or the smartest

therefore antitrust laws or other regulations: why do you believe junk credit is not allowed by EU regulators? it is to avoid a $400 billion disaster which is happening somewhere else now due to "personnal responsibility" ending up in "everybody will PAY"
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:45 pm



Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
Like it has been mentioned in an earlier thread, purchase many items in North America and they add sales tax at the till.

That's not so bad, since it's done for every taxable item and even the dumbest consumers know about it. OTOH it would be better to require advertising the total price.

However, if the standard practice was to advertise prices inclusive of sales tax, then advertising a price w/o sales tax would be wrong.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 30):
I would further opine that the practice of advertising a one way fare, but base it on a round trip ticket, is completely false advertising because it suggests a figure that no one would ever pay. It's completely non-sensical, and is designed only to catch consumer attention but has NOTHING to do with reality. Are we supposed to WALK back...?

Well there's nothing wrong with advertising a one-way fare, if the fare is for one-way travel. Advertising one-way prices that require a r/t purchase should be stopped.

I purchase one way fares all the time. This allows flexibility on the return. Pretty much the only times I buy r/t fares is when it's required by the fare rules.
 
icarus75
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:10 pm



Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 17):
I quite like how you defend our national carrier

I gave AF example because I know it very well : I fly with AF every week ends.
I find the site clear and before giving the examples, I've checked!  Smile

If I said something wrong, my apologize!  Wink
Flying is amazing!
 
runway24r
Posts: 20
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:28 pm

From a customer's perspective, I don't really care one bit how much of my ticket cost is tax, security charges, fuel surcharges, etc. All I care about is how much money I hand over to the airline in return for a ticket. What the airline then does with that money is up to their management.

I think that statement speaks on behalf of 99% of passengers.

If the ticket costs £150, I'd rather select it for that cost on the first page of booking, rather than select it for £95 + tax + security + blah, blah, blah, and then 10 minutes later you finally find out how much the ticket actually costs having trawled through pages of "optional" extras, etc.

Although I'm politically opposed to the EU usually, I am all in favour of them stamping out the false advertising and force airlines to adopt a WHAT YOU SEE, IS WHAT YOU PAY system. This would enable me to quickly and easily compare the ticket cost of several airlines on the same/similar routes and then chose the best one for me (without dealing with third party search engines, as I prefer to book directly with airlines from experience.)

Just my 2c!!

Regards, Rob
A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A346, 732, 733, 736, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, CRJ700, MD80
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3633
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:53 pm

I think the reason there is such an outcry against "hidden" fees and last-minute surchages for airline tickets is that, generally speaking, retail pricing is all-inclusive in Europe. Someone correct me if I am wrong (I certainly don't pretend to know retail practices everywhere), but when you book a hotel room, buy a meal, shop for shoes or acquire a TV, the price you are quoted is the price you pay. The price changes only if you choose to add on extra, such as upgrading to a suite, tipping your waitress, buying shoe shine or requesting home delivery.

Accordingly, passengers expect and assume airline fares to follow the same model. The price you see upfront should be the price you pay, not including optional items such as travel insurance.

If they chose to, airlines could display an all-inclusive fare without optional extras on their web site, but they choose not to (technical excuses are just BS). This fare should reflect all mandated charges as well as the charges that are not technically mandatory, but that (nearly) everyone pays anyhow (specifically, credit card processing fee).

Instead, they'd rather display the lowest fare possible to attract customers, but also to make comparison shopping that much harder. How many web sites will a customer check if he has to enter his personal detail and almost complete a transaction to get the full and complete price of a trip, versus having the same information available upfront from each carrier ? How many times does it happen that Ryanair isn't so cheaper than another carrier once all the fees, taxes, etc... are computed, especially on last minute tickets, but you can't quite tell until you're ready to press the Buy This Now button ?

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both????

Yes, but airlines generally do not fall over themselves trying to educate consumers either...

Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Belgium had the worst number of incidents, with 46 of 48 Web sites investigated found to be at fault



Quoting Analog (Reply 2):
This is a bit odd. Aren't the websites the same, or almost the same?

If the EU wants to be anal, Belgium has three official languages, so I guess any web site that does not translate everything in all three languages could be in violation.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
vv701
Posts: 5774
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:59 pm



Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Are consumers blind, stupid, or both????

Consumers expect reputable companies like FR, BA and LH to operate on a level playing field. If they look at the first price on a web site for an air ticket they expect it to be directly comparable to the first price for the same trip on another web site. If they choose the cheapest of the two first viewed prices on a web site and five pages later just as about the time they are going to click the pay button they find the price is significantly above that they were first quoted on that site they have the right to expect that the same would have happened on the other site.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 5):
Sounds like they are going at FR here

Yes.

Quoting Theginge (Reply 27):
How are the EU going to force sites to close down?

FR was in breach of UK (as well as EU) law from last January. The British government gave them until 30 April to comply with British law. Otherwise they threatened possible closure of the airline's operations in the UK.

FR failed to meet the 30 April deadline. They explained that changing their web site was a complex operation. So the British government extended the deadline until 31 July.

FR failed to meet the revised 31 July deadline. They explained that changing their web site was a very complex operation. So the British government extended the deadline until 28 February 2008.

Of course the problem for FR is that changing their web site is a very complex operation. So we will have to wait and see whether they can negotiate another extension out of the British government that is clearly worried about their electoral popularity if they were forced to closer down low cost airline routes. In the meantime to the occasional traveller FR fares continue to look even better value than they are.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 31):
Has everyone lost the ability for independent thought or individual responsibility?

But why should we be at the mercy of false advertising, which wastes our time and SEEKS to deceit consumers? Why should there not be accountability in advertising, just as there are laws ensuring free speech, yet making defamation of character and hate mongering still illegal? The dog-eat-dog consumer environment you seem to advocate would be unpalatable.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 32):
human society is not (or should not be) the survival of the fittest and/or the smartest

I agree.

Quoting Analog (Reply 33):
Well there's nothing wrong with advertising a one-way fare, if the fare is for one-way travel. Advertising one-way prices that require a r/t purchase should be stopped.

I agree. I'm talking about one-way fares based on round trip purchase. They are NOT one way fares because they are not available one-way. It's false advertising so that the airline can quote a smaller dollar figure, which is not based on reality, and is blatantly misleading. A one way fare based on round trip purchase is not an actual figure that anyone could ever pay.

Quoting Runway24R (Reply 35):
If the ticket costs £150, I'd rather select it for that cost on the first page of booking, rather than select it for £95 + tax + security + blah, blah, blah, and then 10 minutes later you finally find out how much the ticket actually costs having trawled through pages of "optional" extras, etc.

Exactly - Why should I be required to waste 10 minutes navigating through an airlines website only to FINALLY get the actual price just before I click "purchase." The onus should be on the airlines to be honest and forthcoming, not on the consumer to "beware."

If all airlines are held to the same standard, then they can still compete on the basis of price (but not on the basis of deceit), and consumers can readily see what that price is.
I come in peace
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18997
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RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:17 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
In fact, I'd say it's far, far more worse (more misleading) in Europe, as it's a rarity in the U.S. to find $1 round-trip fares advertised, only to later find that there are actually $70 in taxes. That happens all the time in Europe, on the other hand. Just ask Ryanair.

In my experience, your statement is incorrect that the practice is more widespread in Europe. I find the opposite. Airlines in many if not most countries in Europe now quote and advertise the all-inclusive price including all taxes, fuel surcharges etc. That's certainly true in Switzerland although the change is fairly recent, about a year or so ago. Check most major airline websites for travel commencing in Europe and I think you'll find it's the same.

The US (and Canada) are much worse than Europe in not quoting all-inclusive prices for other products and services. In Europe, the advertised price is almost always inclusive of all VAT and any other taxes, and in many countries that's a legal requirement. Your cash register receipt breaks out the taxes but that's about the only time you see them shown separately. In the US and Canada, local state/provincial sales taxes (and GST in Canada) are virtually never included in the advertised price. That's definitely not the case anywhere I've been in Europe.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:58 am



Quoting VV701 (Reply 37):
Of course the problem for FR is that changing their web site is a very complex operation

Rubbish. It's the standard Navitaire product, isn't it ? It's a tweak to the pricing parameters, that's all. These are not complex pricing transactions after all, one-way or one-way combinable, one fare only - how tough can it be ? I'm amazed the UK government fell for that line.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13763
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:27 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 21):
I find it misleading when I walk into a shop in North America, when I try and buy something. I pay more than the listed price, they add tax ontop of the listed price. And because they don't pay their staff properly or at all, I then have to tip the people to prop up their wages.

That's just silliness. There is not one person in this country who is not fully aware that sales tax is not included in most prices. Not only that, it's clearly marked in advertisements (and if it's not, the company can be sued), and it's also clearly indicated when it is included. And one major reason it's not is because we have no national tax. Sales tax does not go to some federal entity that then doles it back out to the cities and towns. We have state and municipal sales taxes, and they are all different, so it would make advertising really difficult if the prices included tax.

As for your problems with tipping and underpayment and such, that's completely cultural. It's a different way of doing things, but it's like any other cultural difference.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:46 pm

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:35 am



Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 34):
I gave AF example because I know it very well : I fly with AF every week ends.
I find the site clear and before giving the examples, I've checked!

If I said something wrong, my apologize!

Bonjour

Just read yesterday's post and I may have sounded a bit agressive.
Apologies from my part too.

It's just that being a FB PE (and F+ rouge before that) I feel AF nous prend pour des cons quite a lot  Wink

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2289
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:52 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
And, regardless of whether its voluntary or regulated, I think people are ultimately smart enough to figure things out on their own.

That is quite an assumption!

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Because that's life. Businesses try and get whatever they can get out of people, and as such, some have now resorted to automatically putting passengers down for travel options they don't want/need.

That's why regulators exist - that's life too.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Personal responsibility. It's a good thing.

Absolutely, but this responsibility extends to airlines too - and that's why we have regulators to make companies aware of their responsibilities and if necessary enforce those.

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 17):
Here are some screenshots from www.airfrance.ie (Eire is the EU, right?) :



Quoting Analog (Reply 33):
Advertising one-way prices that require a r/t purchase should be stopped.

Very interesting! I just checked a ticket price on aifrance.pt and it did include all taxes and charges right away.

Quoting Runway24R (Reply 35):
All I care about is how much money I hand over to the airline in return for a ticket. What the airline then does with that money is up to their management.

I think that statement speaks on behalf of 99% of passengers.

Completely agree.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 36):
I think the reason there is such an outcry against "hidden" fees and last-minute surchages for airline tickets is that, generally speaking, retail pricing is all-inclusive in Europe.

It is, and that's

Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
Why the EU regulators are singling out airlines,

Another annoying point:

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 38):
I agree. I'm talking about one-way fares based on round trip purchase. They are NOT one way fares because they are not available one-way. It's false advertising so that the airline can quote a smaller dollar figure, which is not based on reality, and is blatantly misleading. A one way fare based on round trip purchase is not an actual figure that anyone could ever pay

The AF site, although quoting inclusive prices, was still guilty of that. Have you ever gone to a shoe shop (assuming you have two legs), to see the price quoted per shoe assuming that you buy a pair of shoes? Deceptive advertising is terribly annoying, and I think the EC is doing a great job in protecting consumer rights.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: EU Airlines Could Be Forced To Close Website

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:56 am



Quoting USADreamliner (Thread starter):
Of the 20 Web sites probed in Austria, none was found to break EU consumer rules.

The reason for that it a ruling by the Austrian highest court that it is by Austrian law forbidden to advertise any price without all taxes included. If you advertise a price 79 EUR in Austria the customer only pays 79EUR and no additional service or whatever fee. A very good ruling if you ask me!  Smile

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