dbo861
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Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:41 pm

I flew LGA to DSM today on Pinnacle. It was a 50 seat CRJ and there were only 9 people on board (10 including myself but I was non rev-ing). I understand that this route just began 11/4 and this is also a slow time of year for airlines..but still 9 people has got to be painful for NW.

Eagle seems to do pretty well on this route. There have been multiple times when I was trying to jumpseat on the flight and I was turned away because the flight was full/over weight. But at the same time, I haven't had a chance to fly Eagle since Pinnacle started flying this route so I don't know how they're doing now that there's competition in town.

I question if the DSM market will be able to sustain 2 daily NYC flights. I would like to think so and hopefully NW will be able to generate the traffic (as this extra New York flight really helps my commute to work). Makes you wonder if Northwest really saw potential on this route or if they were just trying to run American Eagle out of town.
 
aa777lvr
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:35 am

Same scenario out of MSN. Airlink has the early morning outbound MSN-LGA with late evening return LGA-MSN. Eagle is running an early afternoon turn. I know that most days the Eagle flight is full or nearly full in and out...often oversold. Granted Airlink is running this with a 50-seater and Eagle with a 37-seat E135.

NW knew they could never win the DFW-LGA battle and pulled out before it even began (as I recall). Then they elected to fight their battles elsewhere in these smaller markets.

I just hope that they don't run Eagle out (if that's what happens) and then drop the service themselves. MSN was thrilled when Allegiant began LAS-MSN service years ago. NW decided to compete in the same market offering n/s service to match, G4 pulls out and surrendered to NW, then a few months later NW drops the service and now no N/S service. I'm sure the NW supporters out there will claim the market couldn't sustain the service and that's why both pulled out....IMO, I disagree...that's my perrogative. Those of us in the biz who have observed NW's tactics realize all you need to do is change the city pairs in the above scenario for it to describe other service that has come and gone.

-AA777LVR
 
Vorticity
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:35 am

I never fly from the east coast, but it would be nice if DSM had more capacity, so I didn't have to fly into CID, MLI, OMA, MCI, or MSP... or that could be all the reasons DSM can't support that capacity.  Sad
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
iowaman
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:35 am



Quoting Dbo861 (Thread starter):
I understand that this route just began 11/4 and this is also a slow time of year for airlines..but still 9 people has got to be painful for NW.

Losing money for sure. The times are the icing on the cake, which allow for basically zero business travel. Not to mention today is a Tuesday and as you said, a slow time of the year.

Quoting Dbo861 (Thread starter):
Makes you wonder if Northwest really saw potential on this route or if they were just trying to run American Eagle out of town.

IIRC this and a few other routes were retaliation for AA launching MSP-LGA with MD-80's.

Quoting Dbo861 (Thread starter):
I question if the DSM market will be able to sustain 2 daily NYC flights

I'm confident the DSM market can support 2 daily flights. Whether NW's pricing, timing, and aircraft type flown on this route can survive is another story. As you mentioned, Eagles daily flight (which allows for a day of business in LGA and return the same day) does very well. Fares average $202 each way on AA between DSM and LGA, with an average of 242 passengers a day.

If NW would add a CR9, priced correctly, early morning departure, I could see this being more successful money and load wise than a poorly timed, 3 hour, CRJ-200 flight.
 
planespotting
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:50 am

Hard to say if it can stick or not - the flights timing is certainly not an advantage. That is probably the kicker - it seems very unlikely that there are many folks in the afternoon to afternoon DSM-LGA market. Eagle's is much more aptly timed.


Hey Dbo - are you gonna be back in DBQ this weekend? it's Dieter's wedding and quite a few people are gonna be back in town.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:14 am



Quoting Iowaman (Reply 3):
If NW would add a CR9, priced correctly, early morning departure, I could see this being more successful money and load wise than a poorly timed, 3 hour, CRJ-200 flight.

So, you want to put a bigger plane on a route that you dont think is doing well to begin with?
Leave it a CR2 and move it to a morning departure, evening arrival and see what happens. No need to upgrade untill loads and yields permit. Also, it looks to be much closer to 2 hours than 3.
 
warszawa
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:36 am

No different situation here in FNT. MQ started FNT-LGA with the E135, soon afterwards, 9E entered the picture with the CRJ-200. Virtually same times, plus minus 30 minutes or so.

Guaranteed, if the primary carrier that intiated the route surrenders to NW, NW will pull out of the route. FL started FNT-LAS a couple years ago, NW started FNT-LAS. FL left, NW left. FL's back on the FNT-LAS route (thankfully, I just flew it last week actually roundtrip - both flights at least 95% full). NW surprisingly hasnt retaliated. Also surprised NW hasnt started FNT-DFW in retaliation to MQ either.

I'm hoping MQ will stick it out with LGA and their other routes competing with NW/9E. Currently, loads around this time of the year are pretty low. Give it a month or two, especially for the holidays, and i'd expect these LGA routes to fill up pretty well.

9E will obviously have a harder time with the 50 seat CR2, versus MQ's 37 seat E135, but hopefully all the flights into LGA will pickup in loads and profits. I'm hoping MQ wins (simply because, if they bail out, 9E will certainly bail also, but not the other way around). 9E can tag along for the ride, I suppose.
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
commavia
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:41 am



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 6):
No different situation here in FNT. MQ started FNT-LGA with the E135, soon afterwards, 9E entered the picture with the CRJ-200. Virtually same times, plus minus 30 minutes or so.

If I remember correctly, FNT was one of the "Midwest Three" (DSM/FNT/MSN) that was the most vocal about the sh*t NW is pulling. I seem to recall a thread here on A.net a few months back quoting some FNT official as basically saying, "We don't want NW flying LGA [and thus driving Eagle out]." Looks like FNT has NW's number.
 
iowaman
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:00 am



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 5):
So, you want to put a bigger plane on a route that you dont think is doing well to begin with?
Leave it a CR2 and move it to a morning departure, evening arrival and see what happens. No need to upgrade untill loads and yields permit.

CR9 morning departure, which actually has the legs to do the flight, and has a first class advantage over Eagle. I'm confident this would work much better. Where there is room for Eagle and CR9 to fill both flights with similar times is a good question.

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 5):
Also, it looks to be much closer to 2 hours than 3.

With ground time and winter winds, the block time for the eagle flight is commonly close to three hours.
 
Super80DFW
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:10 am

Well, MQ Flt. 4821, DSM-LGA has 15 open seats tommorow. 9E Flt. 2851 DSM-LGA has 25 open seats tommorow. Nearly half or half of each plane is empty.
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
DLX737200
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:21 am

Dang! Two DSM-LGA flights and OMA can't even get one. Bring one over here! PLEASE!

-Justin
 
warszawa
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
I seem to recall a thread here on A.net a few months back quoting some FNT official as basically saying, "We don't want NW flying LGA [and thus driving Eagle out]." Looks like FNT has NW's number.

I believe it, especially with how aggressive our airport director is. Jim Rice probably worked damn hard to finally get service to LGA. MQ is finally here, and 9E is about to bury his efforts. I will say, the MQ flights are pretty well promoted, both on FNT's website, and on the local radio here. I was in FNT last week and MQ had a large banner/poster promoting service to New York. IIRC, NW didnt have anything (just your standard NW checkin counter). I get the impression that 9E somewhat went under the radar on this route. I wonder how it would have been if MQ started FNT-JFK, that'd be interesting.

9E likely will not leave any of these routes, whether it be DSM, FNT, or wherever, for as long as MQ is on them, but all I can say is I hope both carriers can successfully operate these routes with profitable loads. Otherwise, the only losers in the end are the general public. While I cant speak for DSM, I feel as if FNT has a pretty good chance with both 9E and MQ on LGA. Hell, if DL, NW, CO, NK, MQ can all sustain DTW-NYC, then I cant see why FNT cant.

Also, did 9E rid themselves of the CR4's? I dont see the seatmaps anywhere on NW's site nor seatguru for these aircraft. If the loads are poor for 9E, why not place some of the CL44's (40 seat CRJ's) on the LGA routes?

[Edited 2007-11-13 18:53:25]
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
airbusaddict
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:56 am

How about we just move the Airlink LGA flight up north to FSD????? lol.
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planespotting
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:59 am

Speaking of Des Moines - any word on how Mesaba 3404 is going?

That's the 6:50 - 9:45 in the morning flight from DSM - DCA.

They upgraded it to a CR9 after they came on board - but that seems like an awful lot of seats for an east coast destination out of DSM. Maybe it works though ... anybody seen it/flown on it/have info on that one? When I'm in DSM I'm usually flying in Friday night and out Sunday night, so I don't see either of them (the one going out or coming in).
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iowaman
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:32 am



Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 12):
How about we just move the Airlink LGA flight up north to FSD????? lol.

Can't see that working.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 13):
Speaking of Des Moines - any word on how Mesaba 3404 is going?

That's the 6:50 - 9:45 in the morning flight from DSM - DCA.

They upgraded it to a CR9 after they came on board - but that seems like an awful lot of seats for an east coast destination out of DSM

I heard the reason it was upgraded was for the First Class seats. A CR9 should also have less restrictions as well.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:57 am

we couldn't even get our DSM-EWR flight to work 2 years ago..........so I'm not sure I see DSM-LGA working.
 
commavia
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:03 am



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 15):
so I'm not sure I see DSM-LGA working.

Eagle was actually making quite a good go of it, and it was working well. The demand might just be there more for LGA than EWR. Now with NW muddying the waters, I'm not sure, though.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:45 am

The bigger problem isn't supporting two daily flights, IMO, the big problem is more in supporting two different airlines. Not only for DSM-LGA, but FNT-LGA and MSN-LGA too.
a.
 
warszawa
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:10 am

" I heard the reason it was upgraded was for the First Class seats. A CR9 should also have less restrictions as well. "

The first class seats would be the reason. However, once the CR2's get First Class installed, i'd be willing to bet the CR9's will be removed from DSM-DCA.
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
planespotting
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:46 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
However, once the CR2's get First Class installed, i

They're putting first class in a CR2!?
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tjwgrr
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:57 pm



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 6):
No different situation here in FNT. MQ started FNT-LGA with the E135, soon afterwards, 9E entered the picture with the CRJ-200. Virtually same times, plus minus 30 minutes or so.

Here in GRR MQ started GRR-LGA service with 2 daily flights. Not too long afterward 9E started GRR-LGA with one daily flight. MQ dropped to one daily flight, and eventually cancelled the flight all together. I wouldn't be surprised if 9E eventually dumps the route too with all the games NWA plays in the midwest.......

Good luck DSM and MSN.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:57 pm



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 11):
Also, did 9E rid themselves of the CR4's? I dont see the seatmaps anywhere on NW's site nor seatguru for these aircraft. If the loads are poor for 9E, why not place some of the CL44's (40 seat CRJ's) on the LGA routes?

All of the 44 seat (CR4)'s have been converted to 50 seat CRJs. They are the exact same aircraft that had a different seat configuration due to scope restrictions. With the new concessionary contract, NW won the ability to eliminate the 44 seat restriction. Hence, all aircraft have had the closets removed and additional seats installed. The 44-seaters actually had WORSE economics than the 50-seaters due being unable to capture the additional 6 seats of revenue.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 13):
They upgraded it to a CR9 after they came on board - but that seems like an awful lot of seats for an east coast destination out of DSM.

This route initially started with the 69-seat Avro's before going CRJ with their retirement.

Quoting Warszawa (Reply 18):
The first class seats would be the reason. However, once the CR2's get First Class installed, i'd be willing to bet the CR9's will be removed from DSM-DCA.

The CR2 first class is not happening. The initiative was studied and they even did a passenger study, but the economics don't justify it, and it was recently determined to not proceed.

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 20):
I wouldn't be surprised if 9E eventually dumps the route too with all the games NWA plays in the midwest.......

They aren't going to dump GRR-LGA. Remember NW has the slots in LGA - they came from the LGA-MKE service. Remember that NW has very strong loyalty in all 3 of these Midwest markets. I would venture that a number of people in FNT will use NWA to LGA simply because of their FF accounts.

That said, depending on how things shake out with the NYC congestion reduction programs some, or all 3 of these markets could become unsustainable.

Don't read too much into the loads this week. Traffic is extremely light across the board due to the time of the year, particularly midweek. Heck, I flew on a NW PHX-DTW flight last week with 40 people on a 757,
 
dbo861
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RE: Is DSM Able To Sustain 2 Daily Flights To LGA?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:22 pm



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 21):
Quoting Planespotting (Reply 13):
They upgraded it to a CR9 after they came on board - but that seems like an awful lot of seats for an east coast destination out of DSM.

This route initially started with the 69-seat Avro's before going CRJ with their retirement.

Actually, it started out on the CRJ but soon was upgraded to the Avro. I seem to remember reading that it wasn't upgraded because the route demanded more seats..but rather NW was pressured to have first class seats on the route. Obviously it had to be switched back to the CRJ when the Avros were retired. I'm not so sure if the route really demands the CR9, or if they were pressured once again to put first class seats on the route. Also, when the Mesaba maintenance base eventually opens in DSM, this creates another option for rotating aircraft thru DSM for mx.