ASEFlyer
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DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:39 pm

Pretty cool! I think this will make it the longest commercial flight to operate regularly out of ASE.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/827831/

Any tech experts out there know what kind of restrictions these flights will operate under?
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:50 pm



Quoting ASEFlyer (Thread starter):
Any tech experts out there know what kind of restrictions these flights will operate under?

Yeah, weight restrictions. They will really hurt during the summer, but not enough people fly to ASE in the summer to see any difference. Since it's a weekend only service, it's most likely an overflow for SLC.
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ASEFlyer
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:58 pm

I doubt it will operate in the summer. I think it is more geared to arriving European passengers in ATL, offering them a one-stop connecting opportunity. We are expecting a LOT of euro visitors this year given currency strength.
 
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United_fan
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:55 pm

I wonder how ski storage is on a CR7?
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747fan
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:10 pm

If I'm not mistaken, this flight will be weight-restricted due to single-engine climb out requirements. Even though the runway is 7000ft. long at a 7800ft. elevation, I don't think the CR7 will have too much of an issue with the short runway (at least not in the winter/spring/fall) due to their great takeoff performance and leading-edge slats (which the CRJ and ERJ lack). I'm curious to whether this route will operate during the summer.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:18 pm

This will also mark SkyWest's first CR7 flight at ATL.
Good goes around!
 
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United_fan
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:20 pm

I also know that the runway has to be totally free of snow in ASE for the CR7 vs the RJ85 , which was the perfect ASE plane!
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Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:39 pm



Quote:
Quoting United_Fan (Reply 6):
I also know that the runway has to be totally free of snow in ASE for the CR7 vs the RJ85

Incorrect. The runway can't be contaminated; the presence of snow on the runway does not constitute contamination.

[Edited 2007-11-15 08:49:47]
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EXAAUADL
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:51 pm

cuz it is skywest and not ASA or Comair the timings arent great, especially out of ASE. I think youd want to do a ASE turn not an ATL turn. Who wants to spend $$$$$ for an extra night in ASE only to leave at 0800 the next day.
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:45 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):

Agreed. It makes no sense, by the look of the flights, the Skywest crew will probably layover in Aspen, which can't be cheap. It would make alot more sense for the times to be reversed, leaving ATL at 8am and leaving ASE at 1:55p.
 
apodino
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:46 pm



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 6):
I also know that the runway has to be totally free of snow in ASE for the CR7 vs the RJ85 , which was the perfect ASE plane!

The 146 was also the perfect plane for ASE.

I still think the CR7 in ASE is an accident waiting to happen. The restrictions on the CR7 are so much more than the 146, plus SkyWest has taken a beating in the local Aspen Media about their reliability. The big thing I worry about is if a CR7 landing on 15 has to go missed, and then loses an engine on the missed. I have heard that their 10-7 page says that terrain clearance is not guaranteed on a single engine balked landing. And ASE-ATL will be severely weight restricted, even in the winter time. You think SkyWest has problems getting bags just to DEN (ASE-DEN tends to have a lot of lost bags, and SkyWest is the handling agent in both cities), ATL will be ten times worse, because you have to pull bags to get people on.

Truth be told, with the RJ85 and 146's gone, the perfect plane for ASE right now is the Q400. Thats what should be doing all the ASE flying. However, the "beautiful people" in ASE want their jets, and they pay big bucks to fly on Jets. If only they knew what most of us insiders know about the difficulties of operating into ASE. I know I would never put my family on a CR7 into ASE. If I had to fly, I would actually take Mesa with the Dash 8's. I think thats safer.
 
pilotboi
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:48 pm



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 3):
I wonder how ski storage is on a CR7?

There's plently of room in the bin, and it's long enough both width way and length way, and even height too in some places.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:13 pm



Quoting Apodino (Reply 10):
I still think the CR7 in ASE is an accident waiting to happen. The restrictions on the CR7 are so much more than the 146, plus SkyWest has taken a beating in the local Aspen Media about their reliability. . . . However, the "beautiful people" in ASE want their jets, and they pay big bucks to fly on Jets. If only they knew what most of us insiders know about the difficulties of operating into ASE.

There's a win/lose to everything. You want jets, great. We'll give them to you, but you must be willing to sacrifice 100% guaranteed availability. We don't control the weather, there's nothing we can do about it. The airlines don't control nasty gusty winds, heavy snow, the national weather service, or Jack Frost, and the feds and self-conservation take precedence over your arrival.

Quote:
I know I would never put my family on a CR7 into ASE. If I had to fly, I would actually take Mesa with the Dash 8's. I think thats safer.

I don't think I'll ever set foot on a DC-10; They always blow their cargo doors. The 737 has a long history of rudder problems; I refuse to fly on them. The engine on the CRJ-200 can jam up in-flight; They are unsafe to fly on.
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United_fan
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 12):
There's a win/lose to everything. You want jets, great. We'll give them to you, but you must be willing to sacrifice 100% guaranteed availability. We don't control the weather, there's nothing we can do about it. The airlines don't control nasty gusty winds, heavy snow, the national weather service, or Jack Frost, and the feds and self-conservation take precedence over your arrival.

Yes,well,we all know that the 'beautiful people' of ASE (or anywhere else) totally understand this  Smile . Too bad the RJ85/146 wasn't kept around for this duty.
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ORD2PHL
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):
cuz it is skywest and not ASA or Comair the timings arent great, especially out of ASE. I think youd want to do a ASE turn not an ATL turn. Who wants to spend $$$$$ for an extra night in ASE only to leave at 0800 the next day.

People who want to spend their last full day in Aspen on the slopes.....?

I've gone to DEN or EGE at least once a year for the last 20 years and always have flown out the following day/morning. Especially from EGE when you can get out first thing, I welcome it.

ORD2PHL
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:13 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):
cuz it is skywest and not ASA or Comair the timings arent great, especially out of ASE. I think youd want to do a ASE turn not an ATL turn. Who wants to spend $$$$$ for an extra night in ASE only to leave at 0800 the next day.

This flight is much better for european connections. Otherwise, people on the way from europe would have to spend the night in ATL if the flight left ATL in the morning... Whether you leave ASE at 8:00 AM or 3PM, you're not going to be skiing that day, so might as well leave at 8AM and then connect to the rest of the world through ATL. This flight will probably do really well at these times.
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Tornado82
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:50 pm



Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 9):

Agreed. It makes no sense, by the look of the flights, the Skywest crew will probably layover in Aspen, which can't be cheap. It would make alot more sense for the times to be reversed, leaving ATL at 8am and leaving ASE at 1:55p.

Can't they just hit one of the other flights out of ASE on Skywest... considering Skywest as a whole will probably be up to a dozen a day or so in the peak season.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 12):

There's a win/lose to everything. You want jets, great. We'll give them to you, but you must be willing to sacrifice 100% guaranteed availability.

...nothing has great availability at ASE because of the high mins. That's nowhere near a standard 200-1/2 ILS.
 
ASEFlyer
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:45 am



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 12):
I don't think I'll ever set foot on a DC-10; They always blow their cargo doors. The 737 has a long history of rudder problems; I refuse to fly on them. The engine on the CRJ-200 can jam up in-flight; They are unsafe to fly on.

Hysterical  Smile

CR7 is a rocketship.

I really don't think it is fair to say we aspenites ALL require jet service...air travelers in general all fall into this category. The "beautiful people," as you all have come to call them, fly G4s and Falcons etc when they want jet service...not DL or even United first class. Have you seen this place on a long weekend?

I really think this flight is timed for European arrivals. MOST major cities have a direct SLC connection and SLC is quite a pleasant place to connect. I think this flight is to compete with the UA ORD - ASE flight and their international connection opportunities, not to get someone from Chattanooga to ASE on a 2 leg flight.
 
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United_fan
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:25 am



Quoting ASEFlyer (Reply 17):
The "beautiful people," as you all have come to call them, fly G4s and Falcons etc when they want jet service...not DL or even United first class. Have you seen this place on a long weekend?

There are always the wanna-bee's  Smile Same way in LAS. The real money comes in on their own metal.
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EXAAUADL
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:30 pm



Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 15):
This flight is much better for european connections

you think there are that many Europeans going to ASE to justify a flight that is timed poorly for the local and US market?

It wouldnt seem like it. It isnt like LH and BA dont fly to DEN. And Germans and Brtis are the ones who would ski in ASE, not Spaniards or Belgians.
 
OOer
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Most european flight arrive in from europe between 1:30pm and 3:00pm, so even a 1:55pm departure from ATL is not very good timing!!!!!


Ok, I used to work for Skywest and have nothing against them...but come on...a CR7 from ATL to ASE???? What are they planning to carry....30 people???
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:22 am



Quoting OOer (Reply 20):

Ok, I used to work for Skywest and have nothing against them...but come on...a CR7 from ATL to ASE???? What are they planning to carry....30 people???

It's better than nothing, and since the next closest DL hub is LAX, they can't go there because of exclusivity. CVG is a lost cause, so that leaves ATL and JFK, and I sure as hell don't want to deal with JFK.
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SpencerII
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:35 am



Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Ok, I used to work for Skywest and have nothing against them...but come on...a CR7 from ATL to ASE???? What are they planning to carry....30 people???

thats kind of like OO at SUN. They have a huge "bumped bag" problem there. When getting passengers out of SUN, if it wasn't for QX and their Q-400's , & the EXPEDITE bag tag, OO would have a never ending sea of bumped bags on a continual basis. But then on the delivery charges both INbound & OUtbound to deliver the bumped bags, OO just charges it to DL, and DL is never the wiser...that always baffles me.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:42 am



Quoting Spencerii (Reply 22):
They have a huge "bumped bag" problem there.

That's a weight problem there due to the higher passenger weights (and apparently, SUN not wanting to delay PAX.)
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dispatchguy
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:50 pm

So, I wonder how many fuel stops they'll make in DEN to accommodate the load...

With the ASE CRJ7 climb limits, I can see them only being able to carry like 10 pax on a ASEATL nonstop in an RJ...
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IADLHR
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:00 pm



Quoting 747fan (Reply 4):
If I'm not mistaken, this flight will be weight-restricted due to single-engine climb out requirements

What is a single engine climb out? I hope it isnt what I think it is.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:07 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 24):
With the ASE CRJ7 climb limits, I can see them only being able to carry like 10 pax on a ASEATL nonstop in an RJ...

In the summer, I'd be inclined to agree with you; I haven't checked those numbers, though. However, assuming no alternate and 0 C, it'll be closer to 45+.
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dispatchguy
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:28 pm

Here are some numbers I ran a few years back when I was at a CRJ7 operator. These are not from AeroData, so they may be a bit overconservative:

Temp-C / Rnwy 33 / Climb
0 / 68484 / 73282
4 / 67906 / 73234
10 / 67092 / 73161
20 / 64763 / 70495

Looks like one killer, and the reason for the runway limit being most limiting, is that the runway is sloped -1.99%, and with the engine-out climb path required, my guess is that the available takeoff length is pretty short

DS
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Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:39 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 27):
These are not from AeroData, so they may be a bit overconservative:

Those are about right for bleeds open.

The ultimate limitation is the field length there. Obstacle limitations does play a part, but it's not as limiting as field length. Second stage climb isn't prohibiting.
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dispatchguy
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:08 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 26):
I haven't checked those numbers, though. However, assuming no alternate and 0 C, it'll be closer to 45+.

Yeah, I just ran a test, and came up with a nonstop payload of about 10800 lbs.

To be honest, I am a bit surprised, I wouldve figured the max payload was much lower; that is based on the 0C max runway limit, nil wind (which hardly ever happens there).

When I was at AWI, we had one BA46 with a 15kt tailwind limitation, and there were several times that it was the only thing able to operate at ASE.

DS
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Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:18 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 29):
15kt tailwind limitation,

And I'm sure that was with a pretty sizeable hit, too. Of course, it's all about the Benjamins in this industry.
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dispatchguy
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:27 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 30):
it's all about the Benjamins in this industry

Truer words never spoken
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 19):
you think there are that many Europeans going to ASE to justify a flight that is timed poorly for the local and US market?

Yes.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 19):
It wouldnt seem like it. It isnt like LH and BA dont fly to DEN. And Germans and Brtis are the ones who would ski in ASE, not Spaniards or Belgians.

Have you ever done the drive from DEN to Aspen? That can be one awful drive, especially if it's snowing in the rockies. I'd much rather fly in, especially if the price is similar or only slightly more, and DL has enough feed from Germany and the UK right into Atlanta.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:58 pm



Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 32):
Have you ever done the drive from DEN to Aspen? That can be one awful drive, especially if it's snowing in the rockies. I'd much rather fly in, especially if the price is similar or only slightly more, and DL has enough feed from Germany and the UK right into Atlanta.

Untied flies from DEN to ASE you know.

Sorry I am skeptical that the timings for this flight are better than a 0800 timing especially when you add in the fact that the crews must overnight in ASE.


I think this is mostly fantasy that there wil lbe high yield europeans on this flight that more than offset the extra costs and poor ATL timings
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:03 pm

I would say the real reason this is being flown with the published schedule is that there was no fee Comair or ASA CR7 free time only Skywest.
 
727forever
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:33 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 12):

I don't think I'll ever set foot on a DC-10; They always blow their cargo doors. The 737 has a long history of rudder problems; I refuse to fly on them. The engine on the CRJ-200 can jam up in-flight; They are unsafe to fly on.

Do you fly often?

Don't think you have to worry too much about the DC-10 though you may find it interesting that the highest time airplane ever is a DC-10-30 formerly of NW and now TZ. She can't be too bad to acheive a record like that.

I feel way more comfy on a 737 than a lot of other airplanes. The rudder issue was fixed years ago. She's a tough bird with a lot of built in redundancy.

The CRJ-200, while not a Boeing, is a good airplane for what it does. The CF-34 is an awesome engine and only has core lock issues when it is completely mishandled. I'm more concerned about the migrating bushings in the wing box on a CRJ which I've been told many times over is completely okay despite that large pop that you hear during light turbulance. I suppose you would just have to call that character.

Anyway, back to the topic of ATL-ASE. That'll be interesting. They might as well just take 20 seats out and give everyone more legroom because that'll be about all they could take on challenging days.

727forever
727forever
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:38 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 34):
I would say the real reason this is being flown with the published schedule is that there was no fee Comair or ASA CR7 free time only Skywest.

IIRC, only Skywest has been qualified to run the CR7 into ASE. This is due to "creating" some Skywest-specific approach procedures and op specs. Doesn't say that Comair/Acey couldn't do it if they tried, but it would be a bit late to start working on the proving runs this late in the fall.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:25 pm



Quoting 727forever (Reply 35):
Do you fly often?

Ever heard of sarcasm?

Read the quote in the post, and then read the post again.
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ah414211
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:12 pm



Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Ok, I used to work for Skywest and have nothing against them...but come on...a CR7 from ATL to ASE???? What are they planning to carry....30 people???

It is actually Delta that chose to operate this flight--they do all of the planning and scheduling for the SkyWest CRJ/CR7/CR9 routes.....and they had a decision to make....Run the CR7 ATL-ASE or have no ATL-ASE at all since there is no other plane in the Delta/Delta Connection fleet that can fly into ASE. I'm sure Delta figures that the cost of operating the plane less than full will be made up by the higher fares they charge for flying into ASE.
 
apodino
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:10 pm



Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Ok, I used to work for Skywest and have nothing against them...but come on...a CR7 from ATL to ASE???? What are they planning to carry....30 people???

Its no different than USAirways running ZW CRJ-200's in and out of Key West even though the flights have to be severly weight restricted and min fueled to make it work. I don't think thats a good idea either myself.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 21):
It's better than nothing, and since the next closest DL hub is LAX, they can't go there because of exclusivity. CVG is a lost cause, so that leaves ATL and JFK, and I sure as hell don't want to deal with JFK.

Off Topic, but I notice that SkyWest runs CRJ's between CVG and ORD? How are they allowed to operate this flight with exclusivity in ORD, but not anything out of LAX?

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 30):
And I'm sure that was with a pretty sizeable hit, too. Of course, it's all about the Benjamins in this industry.

 checkmark  And they obviously found some FAA guy who they could give enough to just to approve the Ops Spec. I heard that they scared the you know what out of the ATC guys in the ASE tower during their proving runs for this operation.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 39):
I heard that they scared the you know what out of the ATC guys in the ASE tower during their proving runs for this operation.

That was the whole point of the proving runs: to push the limits of aircraft performance and establish limitations.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 39):
Off Topic, but I notice that SkyWest runs CRJ's between CVG and ORD? How are they allowed to operate this flight with exclusivity in ORD, but not anything out of LAX?

Exclusivity only plays for having hubs, not flying to them.

[Edited 2007-11-18 06:23:06]
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747fan
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:31 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 27):
Temp-C / Rnwy 33 / Climb
0 / 68484 / 73282
4 / 67906 / 73234
10 / 67092 / 73161
20 / 64763 / 70495
Looks like one killer, and the reason for the runway limit being most limiting, is that the runway is sloped -1.99%, and with the engine-out climb path required, my guess is that the available takeoff length is pretty short

Wow; due to this, I'm guessing this will be just a seasonal flight like many of the others from ASE and EGE, including DL's own ATL-EGE. If this flight did operate in the summer, it would be severely weight restricted (probably less than 25 passengers), which would probably make it unprofitable.

Quoting 727forever (Reply 35):
The CF-34 is an awesome engine

Its also an awesome-sounding engine, with its distinctive high-pitched fan whine on takeoff. And its defintiely very reliable - a great workhorse.
 
727forever
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:22 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 37):
Ever heard of sarcasm?

Read the quote in the post, and then read the post again.

Reread, still wasn't feeling the full extent of your sarcasm. Point taken though.
727forever
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:59 am



Quoting Apodino (Reply 39):
Off Topic, but I notice that SkyWest runs CRJ's between CVG and ORD? How are they allowed to operate this flight with exclusivity in ORD, but not anything out of LAX?

If I'm not mistaken, it's part of SkyWest's contract with United that they are only allowed to fly out of LAX for United, and not for anybody else...
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Goldenshield
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:27 am



Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 43):
If I'm not mistaken, it's part of SkyWest's contract with United that they are only allowed to fly out of LAX for United, and not for anybody else...

Only for hub operations; otherwise, SkyWest would not being LAX-SLC for both UAX and DLC. Same for SFO-SLC, DEN-SLC, and ORD-CVG for now.
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DocLightning
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:43 am



Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 15):
This flight is much better for european connections. Otherwise, people on the way from europe would have to spend the night in ATL if the flight left ATL in the morning... Whether

If I lived in Europe and felt like I should use DL to get to Aspen, I'd probably fly into SLC and then hop to ASE.

I remember the old Aspen Airways CV 580's? Now THOSE were reliable.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: DL To Start ATL - ASE

Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:49 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 44):
Only for hub operations; otherwise, SkyWest would not being LAX-SLC for both UAX and DLC. Same for SFO-SLC, DEN-SLC, and ORD-CVG for now.

I stand corrected, as usual!
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