jumpjet
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The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:11 pm

I just wondered what happened to the old chestnut of a fifth airport for London? I appreciate that this is something that has been rumbling around perhaps for as long as I have, but unless I've missed something, I think it must have died a death, suffocated beneath a huge mound of red tape and nimbyism!

However, I've had a brainwave.  idea 

How about the Royal Air Force base at Lyneham in Wiltshire, which is set to close in the not too distant future? It's got long runways, it's within spitting distance of the M4 Motorway and the London - Bristol mainline railway is within a mile or so. What do you think the practicalities of Lyneham becoming London's fifth airport are?

Lyneham's 88 miles from central London, in the overall scheme of things, is that simply too far away? Are there any other major airports miles away from the centre of the city they're supposed to serve?

Your thoughts...?  crazy 
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:18 pm

Well 88 miles is near enough for FR to entitle it London Lyneham; but in all probability its probably just a little bit too far away. There's other sites available for major expansion closer to London; Manston is one, and the other one that springs to mind is the former RAe Bedford
 
vv701
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:28 pm



Quoting JumpJet (Thread starter):
I just wondered what happened to the old chestnut of a fifth airport for London?

Or even London's sixth airport to join LHR, LGW, STN, LTN and LCY?  Wink
 
jumpjet
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
Or even London's sixth airport to join LHR, LGW, STN, LTN and LCY?

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about LCY - I'm in your debt VV701 - and suitably chastened!  blush 
 
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moo
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:48 pm



Quoting JumpJet (Thread starter):

How about the Royal Air Force base at Lyneham in Wiltshire, which is set to close in the not too distant future?

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

And I live in a prime spotting location for Lyneham as well, but my answer would still be a resounding 'NO!'.
 
GCT64
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:49 pm

The Government's extant policy is as follows:

(taken from The White Paper 'The Future of Air Transport', published on 16 December 2003)

* There is an urgent need for additional runway capacity in the South East.
* There is no strong case for the development of a second international hub airport alongside Heathrow.
* The first priority is to make best use of the existing runways, including the remaining capacity at Stansted and Luton.
* Provision should be made for two new runways in the South East by 2030.
* The first new runway should be at Stansted, to be delivered as soon as possible (around 2011 or 2012).
* The further development of Heathrow is supported, including a further new runway and additional terminal capacity to be delivered as soon as possible (within the 2015-2020 period) after the new runway at Stansted, but only if stringent environmental limits can be met. An urgent programme of work and consultation will be started to examine this issue further and to consider how best use can be made of the existing airport.
* The Government will not seek to overturn the 1979 planning agreement preventing construction of a second runway at Gatwick before 2019.
* In case the conditions attached to the construction of a third Heathrow runway cannot be met, and since there is a strong case on its own merits for a new wide-spaced runway at Gatwick after 2019, land should be safeguarded for this.

it then goes on to say that no other proposals are supported.
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cornish
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:49 pm



Quoting JumpJet (Thread starter):
Your thoughts...?

Its potential use as a civil airport is already being looked at by certain people  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:56 pm



Quoting Cornish (Reply 6):
Its potential use as a civil airport is already being looked at by certain people

Namely Sid and Doris Bonkers, "Bide-a-wee" Rest Home, Lyneham, Wiltshire. They are hoping to get the duty-free concession  Smile
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GCT64
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:56 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
Or even London's sixth airport to join LHR, LGW, STN, LTN and LCY?

or even London's eighth airport to join:

LHR, LGW, STN, LTN, LCY, "London Southend" & "London Biggin Hill"
 Wink
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vv701
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:59 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 8):
or even London's eighth airport to join:

LHR, LGW, STN, LTN, LCY, "London Southend" & "London Biggin Hill"

Not forgetting London Manston!
 
GCT64
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:02 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
Not forgetting London Manston!

How could I! - OK, so the question is: "How many airports claim to be London Something Airport"?
We have 8 already.
Are there any more?
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GCT64
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:04 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 10):
Are there any more?

Answered my own question ...

London Ashford Airport - known to most as Lydd.
any more?
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vfw614
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:07 pm

"London Ashford Airport" - the self-proclaimed "future of aviation in south east england"


Stocktaking:

London Heathrow
London Gatwick
London Luton
London Stansted
London City
London Southend
London Manston
London Biggin Hill
London Ashford

That makes 9, so a tenth would nicely round it off. Maybe you should ask Ryanair for some ideas, they are usually rather creative when it comes to these matters.
 
cornish
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:07 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 11):
any more?

Battersea Heliport, depending on your definition of airports  Wink
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jumpjet
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:22 pm

It's great to see that the art of sarcasm is alive and so very well!!

Well done team...  Big grin  Big grin

How about London Ontario?
 
tepidhalibut
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:47 pm



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 12):
Maybe you should ask Ryanair for some ideas, they are usually rather creative when it comes to these matters.

Are you referring to London Prestwick ??

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/arc...06/02/09/a_wee_trip_to_london.html
 
antonovman
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:40 pm



Quoting JumpJet (Reply 3):
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about LCY - I'm in your debt VV701 - and suitably chastened! blush

Yes we all forget about LCY and its the only one officially in London  Smile
 
vfw614
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:45 pm

These are the travel distances (road) from Trafalgar Square:

London City - 8,6 miles
London Heathrow - 16,8 miles
London Biggin Hill - 18 miles
London Gatwick - 30,3 miles
London Luton - 34,1 miles
London Stansted - 37,7 miles
London Southend - 42 miles
London Manston - 75,5 miles
London Ashford - 73,3 miles


Given that apparently a distance of no more than 80 miles from Trafalgar Square is London'ish enough to call your airport "London", we should lobby for having those airports renamed as well:

London Oxford - 58 miles
London Shoreham - 57,6 miles
London Southampton - 78,6 miles
London Lasham - 54,3 miles
 
GCT64
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:07 pm

Probably the most surprising one that isn't London Something Airport is Northolt.
I would have thought the exec operators there would have renamed RAF Northolt to LondonWest ExecPort (or something equally tacky!).
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cornish
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:22 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 18):
Probably the most surprising one that isn't London Something Airport is Northolt.
I would have thought the exec operators there would have renamed RAF Northolt to LondonWest ExecPort (or something equally tacky!).

what about Farnborough too ? That certainly serves London primarily.

oh and not forgetting London - Woking (i.e. Fairoaks) Big grin
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phlwok
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:51 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 5):
* The Government will not seek to overturn the 1979 planning agreement preventing construction of a second runway at Gatwick before 2019.
* In case the conditions attached to the construction of a third Heathrow runway cannot be met, and since there is a strong case on its own merits for a new wide-spaced runway at Gatwick after 2019, land should be safeguarded for this.

Thanks for this. I didn't realize that the lack of expansion at LGW was due to a planning agreement rather than local neighbor opposition. (Though I assume the latter will materialize when they start moving towards additional runways.)
 
mandala499
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:00 pm



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 12):
London Heathrow
London Gatwick
London Luton
London Stansted
London City
London Southend
London Manston
London Biggin Hill
London Ashford

Is London Northolt still open guys? Would it count as the 10th London Airport? (reason is: since Biggin is counted, why not this one... isn't it for the biz jets too?)

London Ashford... LOL, We could campaign for London-Shoreham Airport for all the small regional flights... with a nice rail link to Central London... via LGW too! LOL

Mandala499
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N1120A
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:12 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 5):

* There is an urgent need for additional runway capacity in the South East.

Given that they designed Stansted to take 4 runways, they should live up to that plan.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 5):
* The first new runway should be at Stansted, to be delivered as soon as possible (around 2011 or 2012).

They should just build all 3 now.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 5):
* The Government will not seek to overturn the 1979 planning agreement preventing construction of a second runway at Gatwick before 2019.

Question. Would classifying construction as a "move" of the current emergency runway count as construction of a second runway?

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 17):
Given that apparently a distance of no more than 80 miles from Trafalgar Square is London'ish enough to call your airport "London", we should lobby for having those airports renamed as well:

How about London Cambridge?  Silly
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dhhornet
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:27 pm

London Blackbushe, Just right for LCY type aircaft
 
BCAL
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 21):
Is London Northolt still open guys?

From their website

Quote:
RAF Northolt is a VIP Military Airfield to the West of London, which handles Government, Military and Civil flights. It provides a no hassle, rapid gateway for destinations to the North and West of London including the Thames Valley.

With a runway or 1,684m, the airport is ideal for all corporate aircraft up to and including Boeing and Airbus Business Jets and with a maximum capacity of 30 seats but excluding single engined aircraft. Helicopters are also accepted.

RAF Northolt is restricted to 3,500 flights a year (7000 Movements) so access is at a premium.

Interestingly BEA (a predecessor of BA) started operations from Northolt before LHR opened.

How far is Brize Norton from Trafalgar Square?
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N1120A
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:16 pm



Quoting BCAL (Reply 24):

How far is Brize Norton from Trafalgar Square?

72.60 miles according to Mapquest.
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BCAL
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:22 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
72.60 miles according to Mapquest.

Thanks  bigthumbsup 

Bit far out to be London's sixth airport should the UK Government ever decide to decommission it, but still within FR's parameters.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
N1120A
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:29 pm



Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
but still within FR's parameters.

And still a joke. Hell, Brize Norton is 10 miles closer to Bristol than to London.
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flipdewaf
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:37 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):

Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
but still within FR's parameters.

And still a joke. Hell, Brize Norton is 10 miles closer to Bristol than to London.

Im sure they'd call it london lulsgate aswell if they thought more people would use it.

Fred
Image
 
extspotter
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:25 pm

Here are some more examples of FR-yness:

Valladolid (VLL/LEMD), Spain was supposed to partly serve Madrid, over 100 miles away.

Then you always have Barcelona - Girona and Barcelona - Reus

Venice - Trevisio
Oslo - Torp
Helsinki - Tampere
Vienna - Bratislava (The capital of Slovakia serving the capital of Austria!)
Stockholm - Vasteras and Stockholm - Skavsta
Paris - Beauvais
Brussels - Charleroi
Hamburg - Lubeck
Dusseldorf - Wheeze
Frankfurt - Hahn
Liepzig - Altenburg
Santander - Bilbao
Pisa - Florence
Verona - Brescia
Bologna - Forli...........

I am waiting for T/A service where they will serve:
Boston - Bangor
Montreal - Quebec City
Toronto - Hamilton
Seattle/Vancouver - Bellingham
Chicago - Rockford
Atlanta - Birmingham
Houston - Hobby
Los Angeles - Tijuana
San Fransico - Sacremento
New York - Islip

I can definately see those coming from London Prestwick! :p
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f4f3a
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:39 pm

how about london farnborough?
 
heathrow
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:41 pm

I think STN and LTN have a lot of potential (Not just saying this to bennifit my East Anglia estate!) and I'd love to see some quality carriers (Not FR)
 
gsosbee
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:43 pm



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 21):
Is London Northolt still open guys?

It was open 6 months ago when I flew into it. It is for business jest and has movement time restrictions.
 
threepoint
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:51 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
And I live in a prime spotting location for Lyneham as well, but my answer would still be a resounding 'NO!'.

Is this due to nimbyism or more practical opposition?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
fraspotter
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:51 pm



Quoting JumpJet (Reply 14):
How about London Ontario?

Or London, Kentucky....  Smile
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WestJetYQQ
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:47 am



Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 34):
Quoting JumpJet (Reply 14):
How about London Ontario?

Or London, Kentucky....

Both just a little farther away than Lyneham.  Wink
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mandala499
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:13 am

So, what goes as the ten London Airport?
But throw out London Lulsgate, London Rhoose, London Brize Norton, London Eastleigh... otherwise we'll end up with London Turnhouse, London Ringway, Manchester Gatwick, Brighton Ringway, Land's End Manston...

Mandala499
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WarRI1
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:37 am

I would hate to take a taxi from the airport 83 miles outside London. the taxi driver told us about 55 pounds to go to Trafalgar Square from LHR and would not take four people in one cab. It would have cost us 220 dollars for two cabs and what is the distance, about 20 miles? we took the train and it was not bad at all.
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BCAL
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:21 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 37):
the taxi driver told us about 55 pounds to go to Trafalgar Square from LHR and would not take four people in one cab

If you had taken a Hackney cab from the official rank and the vehicle had displayed the badge "Licensed to carry four passengers", once you hired the cab the driver could not refuse to carry you and 3 others to any point within the Metropolitan Boundaries of London. If he did, or said he would not carry four people (unless they had excessive luggage making it difficult to carry four safely, or any member of the party was drunk/disorderly), you can report him to the licensing authorities.
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N1120A
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:18 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 37):
I would hate to take a taxi from the airport 83 miles outside London. the taxi driver told us about 55 pounds to go to Trafalgar Square from LHR and would not take four people in one cab.

That is a bit steep. The general rate they charge tends to be more like 40 quid.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 37):
we took the train and it was not bad at all.

The Tube would have been even cheaper.
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GCT64
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:31 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
The Tube would have been even cheaper.

and, if you start on the right tube line or are going to somewhere on the right tube line, the tube is often much quicker than a taxi (especially in the morning and evening rush hours).

I can never understand why people take taxis between LHR and Central London.
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N1120A
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:50 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 40):

and, if you start on the right tube line or are going to somewhere on the right tube line, the tube is often much quicker than a taxi (especially in the morning and evening rush hours).

This is very true.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 40):

I can never understand why people take taxis between LHR and Central London.

There is one real reason I can see and that is luggage. If you have 4 people and all their bags going into town, taking a cab means a significant savings over the HEX and less hassle than the Tube. Also, if you call ahead of time, a licensed mini cab will be even cheaper.
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WarRI1
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:26 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

When we took the taxi from the train station to the hotels, we took one and the others took another one to their hotel, (separate hotels) the cabbie told us that he could have carried four people, I guess inexperiance was in play here, our first trip to London. Thanks for the advice.
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moo
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:07 pm



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 33):

Is this due to nimbyism or more practical opposition?

The locals (myself included) want the military to remain at Lyneham for the forseeable future - the RAF C-130 wings are moving to Brize Norton sometime around 2012 - 2015, and the current plan, if accepted, is to move the joint forces helicopter transport wing to Lyneham as its base.

If the base were to become London Lyneham, then this would preclude the military staying.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:56 pm



Quoting JumpJet (Thread starter):
Lyneham's 88 miles from central London, in the overall scheme of things, is that simply too far away?

Well if Ryanair operated here they would probably advertise it as "Central London"...

But seriously Manston could make a good airport.. It has a long runway and is close to a railway line.. However EUjet failed to make any money there an subsequently went bust... Although the management of the company was also pretty substandard...

Biggin Hill would be ok as a regional airport but the runway isn't very long and the airport is in a pretty urban area.. But only a stone's throw from central London... they would need to improve public transport though.. But it could help relieve some of the congestion at LCY..

There is another airport near to where i grew up that could work... Lasham.. If public transport was improved and road access it could become a good base for low cost carriers as it is only 50 miles south west of London and not far from rail connections in Alton and Basingstoke... It already has a pretty long runway and i often saw airlines landing and taking off there after maintenance etc.. What do you think??
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
vv701
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:24 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Given that they designed Stansted to take 4 runways, they should live up to that plan.

STN - or at least its main and only runway is American in origin. The runway was laid in 1943 by the US Army 817, 825 and 850 Engineering Battalions. It was handed over to the 30th US Army Air Force Air Depot Group on 7 August of that year. In the following October it became the base of the US Ninth Army Air Force Group. On 6 July 1944 this Group had the honour of flying from what was then RAF Stansted Mountfitchet Airfield on a bombing raid to Cherbourg, France. This raid was the first Allied salvo of D-Day, the Allied invasion of mainland Europe.

I doubt that the USAAF was planning for RAF Stansted Mountfitchet Airfield to have four runways. If they did even number two has been a long time coming.  Wink
 
r2rho
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RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:52 pm

The situation of the London airports is completely hopeless and could only be changed through an ambitious global initiative led and fully supported by the British goverment - the lack thereof in the past 20 years has led to the situation there is today.

LHR: Forget it. It's a hopeless case. Even if they ever do get the third runway, it will only solve today's problems, not tomorrow's. The London airport situation will only improve once airport planners and politicians cease to have their minds fixed exclusively on LHR and start seeing the big picture.

LGW: In 1979 an agreement was reached with the local council not to expand further before 2019. This is yet another ridiculous example of the shortsightedness of British authorities. LGW can't get its much needed second runway due to an agreement from 1979. Good job, guys.

STN: Offers the greatest potential. It can and should be expanded to 4 runways, to become London's main international gateway in the mid-term. It's the only chance left for London, and it should not enter the list of missed opportunities. Yes, that would mean that the great LHR would no longer be London's main airport. So what?

LTN: plans for a second runway were scrapped in 2006. Yet another missed opportunity.

My conclusion - London could learn a thing or two from Madrid:

Two New Airports For Madrid Approved (by R2rho Nov 13 2007 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2007-11-18 05:53:03]
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:34 pm

Airport expansion is almost impossible in many parts of the world, and of course in the London area. 'NIMBY', serious and frivolous environmental issues, bad politics, too much building up of areas around airports, overall costs, how to pay for expansion (taxpayers or fees on travelers) and security needs.
Perhaps what may have to happen soon in the London region, is to eliminate flights of less than 200-300 miles to/from the regions airports, with huge taxes/fees/penalties and shifting those travelers to high speed trains. Other current airports could use more reasonably priced high speed train service. Still, until a major crises occurs and the economy of the UK is affected seriously by restricted airport access, then nothing will happen.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:25 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 45):

I doubt that the USAAF was planning for RAF Stansted Mountfitchet Airfield to have four runways.

I am aware of Stansted's beginnings, but the planning and land acquisition has been for a major, 4 runway airport. It is just a matter of building it.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 44):
only 50 miles south west of London

"Only", sheesh. 50 miles is too far for a reliever airport, unless you build a fast and reliable rail link. That would mean even more spending on infrastructure when airport expansion is available
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
GCT64
Posts: 1257
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: The Future Of London's Fifth Airport?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:46 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 47):
Perhaps what may have to happen soon in the London region, is to eliminate flights of less than 200-300 miles to/from the regions airports

I wondered what effect this would have so went and looked at the flights on a typical recent day (15 Nov 07):

12% of LHR movements were to/from UK Airports on the mainland UK (i.e. excluding Belfast, Jersey etc.) but this includes some quite distant airports e.g. ABZ

10% of LHR movements were to/from the Netherlands, Belgium and Paris.

So, in extremis, and wiping out all air connections to airports in these areas, you could free up 22% of LHR's slots by using high speed rail as a replacement (completely ignoring the practicalities of properly connecting LHR to the rail network).

The real issue across anywhere that could house a new or highly expanded London Airport is population density. The UK's average population density is almost 2.5 times that of France and 8 times that of the US. Specifically in London, South East England and East Anglia, the population density is more twice the national average (at 526 per sq km). Any major airport expansion is bound to affect a large number of people and, hence, result in a long drawn out process.

The Government's "expand STN, LHR and LGW" policy is probably about the only solution that has any chance of successfully being pursued within any reasonable distance of London.
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