OPNLguy
Topic Author
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Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:04 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071115/ap_on_go_pr_wh/airline_delays

Hearings in progress now...

Maybe they'll just mandate issuance of iPhones to all pilots...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:32 pm

Well increasing the denied boarding compensation will be a big step forward in reducing delays.

The White House said Bush would announce a series of decisions, including action to aid travelers whose flights are canceled or delayed. The Transportation Department has been drafting regulations to increase the bump fees for travelers who buy tickets but wind up without a seat. The department has been considering increasing the fee from $200 to more than $600.


I'd like to see what Bush can do that will reduce delays starting next week.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:45 pm

because afterall he's done such a bang up job at everyhting else he's touched.


maybe he could start by firing the head of the FAA and privitizing it.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:05 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
because afterall he's done such a bang up job at everyhting else he's touched.


maybe he could start by firing the head of the FAA and privitizing it.

Yeah, because Lockheed has given us such a stellar example of what happens when you privatize.
DMI
 
fxra
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:07 pm

I'm giddy with antcipation. I enjoyed the FoxNews report that just said the prez hopes to have new measures in place by the thanksgiving travel days. Obviously one of them (Bush or Fox) isn't aware how swiftly the airlines, FAA, ATC, DOT, and others implement change. We need proposals and studies and opinions and rulemaking committees.

I would love a picture of him in front of JFK with a big Missions Accomplished banner on Tuesday.
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:08 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
The department has been considering increasing the fee from $200 to more than $600.

I thought they already did that.  Confused
I love ASO!
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:50 pm



Quoting Fxra (Reply 4):
I would love a picture of him in front of JFK with a big Missions Accomplished banner on Tuesday.

It's scary to think about, but if there's good weather for Thanksgiving and Christmas (i.e. no blizzards and no other delay-producers like reduced cigs/vis in fog/rain), he could actually get out there and try to take credit for the lack of delays...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
nycfly75
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:58 pm

Unused Military Airspace will be opened up to commercial flights. http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/11/15/airline.delays.ap/index.html

[Edited 2007-11-15 10:01:01]
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
Yeah, because Lockheed has given us such a stellar example of what happens when you privatize.

Lockheed was always private..dont you mean a bailout?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:59 pm

The one I love was the airline industry association saying airlines are adding extra flights and more planes next week to cope with demand and minimize delays.

I thought they have been saying previously the delay issues were caused by too many planes flying - blaming all the bizjets which clog up the airways!!

So I guess airline extra planes don't stress the system.
 
joness0154
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:54 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):

Lockheed was always private..dont you mean a bailout?

No, he's talking about when the FAA started handing over FSS to Lockheed. They've had tons of problems, including missing flight plans, no 'local' knowledge, long wait times for briefers, etc. The problems still exist, however they are getting better.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
fxra
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 7):
Unused Military Airspace will be opened up to commercial flights

Without knowing which restricted areas are being opened, I wonder what "the plan" s for the airspace usage. Theres no way over the next week we can come up with and publish procedures (SID's, STARS, Pref routings) that can take advantage of these areas. Will i be able to flight plan through them or are they for strategic routing only by ATC?

Maybe this will allow us to have more places to hold while we wait to land at the NY Metros.

IMHO opinion, most of these measures are purely for the perception that we are doing something by the politcians. While the extra airspace will help some, it should have been done months ago and been able to be structured for better use. Unfortunately no one knew there was going to be a holiday travel rush around thanxgiving back in June.

[Edited 2007-11-15 11:59:04]
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PanAm747
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:01 pm



Quote:
I'm giddy with antcipation. I enjoyed the FoxNews report that just said the prez hopes to have new measures in place by the thanksgiving travel days. Obviously one of them (Bush or Fox) isn't aware how swiftly the airlines, FAA, ATC, DOT, and others implement change. We need proposals and studies and opinions and rulemaking committees.

I would love a picture of him in front of JFK with a big Missions Accomplished banner on Tuesday.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

And flying in on a fighter jet as well...

Quote:
Well increasing the denied boarding compensation will be a big step forward in reducing delays.

I'm not sure how, but I agree that is something the airlines need to do!!

Quote:
The one I love was the airline industry association saying airlines are adding extra flights and more planes next week to cope with demand and minimize delays.

I thought they have been saying previously the delay issues were caused by too many planes flying - blaming all the bizjets which clog up the airways!!

So I guess airline extra planes don't stress the system.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Welcome to the wonderful world of the airlines!! "But the market demands that we schedule 400 RJ flights out of LGA in a thirty minute time period!! If we don't, someone else will!!"
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
doug_or
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:02 pm



Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
Unfortunately no one knew there was going to be a holiday travel rush around thanxgiving back in June.

Its a good thing I wasn't drinking anything, because I garuntee it would have gone right out my nose!
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:47 pm



Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
IMHO opinion, most of these measures are purely for the perception that we are doing something by the politcians. While the extra airspace will help some, it should have been done months ago and been able to be structured for better use. Unfortunately no one knew there was going to be a holiday travel rush around thanxgiving back in June.

Concur... I was surprised not to hear Bush's plan for eliminating thunderstorms, and exactly how he had planned to increased th AAR at some of these delay-prone airports. Maybe he covered those aspects when I was in the bathroom barfing over the stuff he'd said earlier...  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
iahflyer
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:01 pm

Does anyone have a map of this?
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 15):
Does anyone have a map of this?

Somehow, I just can't seem to get the image of George drawing on a High chart with a box of crayons out of my mind. Hope the route doesn't run MIA..BDA..JFK!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 9):
The one I love was the airline industry association saying airlines are adding extra flights and more planes next week to cope with demand and minimize delays.

The is actually not true at all as over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, there is minimal difference the in the number of flights. In fact, on Thanksgiving Day, Friday, and Saturday, there are SIGNIFICANTLY LESS flights than during an average week as airlines reduce the number of flights into business markets and operate more on a holiday schedule. Where there may be a few leisure destinations that see additonal flights or increased aircraft sizes, it balances out the frequency reduction into other airports.

Every year it is the standard story about increased delays around Thanksgiving due to "demand." There is no material difference in the number of flights from most other non-holiday periods, still less than the typical number of flights operated during the airlines' peak summer schedules.

There are just more people flying than an ordinary November week, meaning that load factors are higher, there are more people at the airport, and more clueless relatives driving in circles around the airport roadways waiting to pick up Aunt Jean who called to say "she just landed" and is still on the plane taxiing in from 22R.


Take NW for example, they are essentially shutting down the airline around 5pm on Thanksgiving Day. They cut the last 2 banks at DTW & MSP and the last bank at MEM on Thanksgiving since very few people travel on Thanksgiving night. On that Friday morning, there are many flights that are not operating.

These "delays" don't just show up on Thankgiving or Christmas, it just usually appears more in the limelight where the government wants to have you believe they are doing something. If there are "delays" they will say that they warned us, if there aren't "delays" they will take credit for averting them (even if they played no part in it - i.e., it was a nice sunny day in ORD/PHL/LGA/JFK/EWR).

[Edited 2007-11-15 13:26:04]
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:29 pm

So what is this..the war on airlines? The war on Air Travel? The war on the sky? I'd suggest The war on passengers but NW already has a TM on that!
.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:38 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
I'd like to see what Bush can do that will reduce delays starting next week.

Big mistake, this will only put himself in more crosshairs of democrats and liberals, that "if" something was to go wrong concerning operations, it will be "Bush's fault". Like OPNLguy, Fxra, and others in the camp of "I can't wait to see how many people miss their thanksgivings because of this stupid plan", are just simply excited by seeing people angry, miserable and upset for purely political agenda driven purposes. The feral gov't usually keeps it's hands of things like this and only after a disaster like the Valentines Day B6, or the NW New Years 1999 debacles occur, that self-promoting lawmakers jump in front of the podium to demand the airlines take responsibility for what happened. Bush is only trying to make an honest attempt at averting possible incidents like this from happening again.

Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
IMHO opinion, most of these measures are purely for the perception that we are doing something by the politcians. While the extra airspace will help some, it should have been done months ago and been able to be structured for better use. Unfortunately no one knew there was going to be a holiday travel rush around thanxgiving back in June.

And who's to say just because this was announced that the groundworks weren't initially laid in the several months ago? It's not like the president can just make a phone call saying he want Military or restricted airspace made available tomorrow. It most likely takes discussion and planning to determine which airspace can be made available that won't threaten national security. I find youcynicism childish, borish and off-candor uninspired. It's just another preamble to obvious forthcoming Bush-bashing.
Made from jets!
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:42 pm

Only question is Does Haliburton or Blackwater get the no-bid contract for the "solution"
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 13):
Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
Unfortunately no one knew there was going to be a holiday travel rush around thanxgiving back in June.

Its a good thing I wasn't drinking anything, because I garuntee it would have gone right out my nose!

LMAO!!!!!

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 12):
But the market demands that we schedule 400 RJ flights out of LGA in a thirty minute time period!! If we don't, someone else will!!"

Sad but true I'm afraid.

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 18):
So what is this..the war on airlines? The war on Air Travel? The war on the sky?

LMAO again!!!

Nice to know Dubbya has nothing more pressing to be dealing with (such as World Poverty, the clusterf*ck in Iraq, the strength of the dollar etc) and has taken time out of his golf sessions to (deep breath)...

...appoint an appointment committee who will appoint a team of Governmental planners to form an analysis committee which will answer to the recommendation committee which will then report to the Congressional committee on implemention (subject to appeal due process, approval from the senate, and the whims of any Captains of Industry who didnt get appointed on any of the other committees), which will implement findings for the recommendation of the consideration of selection and appointment of a task force which will bring its action plan before a new committee (to be decided) which will discuss findings and go in front of the house to produce its findings, no later than 2019. These findings will then be used as the basis for the Congressional Enquiry.

Of course the enquiry, which will cost the US taxpayer US$400m, will find that the delays are caused by all those RJs and nobody can do anything about it as binning them will bankrupt the airlines.

Or they could have just asked A-net Big grin

[Edited 2007-11-15 13:47:50]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
BAKJet
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:46 pm



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
Bush is only trying to make an honest attempt at averting possible incidents like this from happening again.

Hasn't the FAA already taken this into their hands. Also I can't wait too see what his brilliant plan will be.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:14 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
Well increasing the denied boarding compensation will be a big step forward in reducing delays.

How is it going to help? The airlines won't have any problem passing that extra "compensation" on to the customers. At which point, the customers will complain. Moreover, if you're bumped off a flight, the LAST thing you'd want is a free drink at the airport.

Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
IMHO opinion, most of these measures are purely for the perception that we are doing something by the politcians.

AMEN!

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 18):
So what is this..the war on airlines? The war on Air Travel? The war on the sky? I'd suggest The war on passengers but NW already has a TM on that!

I'd be more ready to declare war on stupid passengers who slow security lines or who think they can go through JFK/ORD/LAX/SFO security half an hour early.

My point is if you don't want to fly, DON'T! There's always driving or the train. I don't think airlines do it on purpose to delay your flights. It is always easy for passengers to complain and for the government to impose stringier requirements on the airlines, but who picks up the tab when they're financially in the hole? Nobody. While I do agree delays and overbookings are a pain, I just accept it as being the flying times of today. You do your part like coming to the airport early, leave your "illegal" stuff at home, etc... and that's basically all you can do. The more you complain, the more time airlines will be spending on resolving your complain, instead of getting you to your destination earlier.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:15 pm



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Every year it is the standard story about increased delays around Thanksgiving due to "demand." There is no material difference in the number of flights from most other non-holiday periods, still less than the typical number of flights operated during the airlines' peak summer schedules.

The problem with your statement is that you appear to be just considering airline traffic, to the exclusion of other IFR traffic. I can assure you that nearly every bigwig with a personal or corporate bizjet has travel plans for the major "getaway" airports, Florida and Colorado destinations to name but a few. Try a search for Snowbirds" or check with Sid R. @ MSPDD.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
Like OPNLguy, Fxra, and others in the camp of "I can't wait to see how many people miss their thanksgivings because of this stupid plan", are just simply excited by seeing people angry, miserable and upset for purely political agenda driven purposes.

No, what I actually can't wait to see is the day when operational outsiders who don't have Clue-1 from frontline experience of how this stuff works, and should work will maybe start listening to the professionals in the trenches, without assuming that the comments and suggestions of those professionals are automatically for "purely political agenda driven purposes."

It's just damn wonderful that George has shaken some more military airspace loose, but without capacity improvements at the departure and arrival airports, it's tantamount to building a new 6-lane bridge across the river but doing nothing to expand the capacity of the 2-lane road that feeds the 6-lane bridge and feeds the traffic back into the 2-lane road on the other side of the bridge.

I'm not worried--I'm sure George understands all of it. including the fact that FAA has squandered years and billions on mis-managed projects. NextGen? Should have been here years ago...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
fxra
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
And who's to say just because this was announced that the groundworks weren't initially laid in the several months ago? It's not like the president can just make a phone call saying he want Military or restricted airspace made available tomorrow. It most likely takes discussion and planning to determine which airspace can be made available that won't threaten national security. I find youcynicism childish, borish and off-candor uninspired. It's just another preamble to obvious forthcoming Bush-bashing.

Ok I'll play. If there had been a plan in the works, it would need to b published. Airspace redesigned and redesignated on charts. New SID's and STARs issued for the NY airports to effectively route traffic and allow planning to take advantage of the opened airspace. No as one of the resident "manual revision specialists" in my office, no new charts have been issued by Jepp. No updated plates. There should have also been provisions to add these changes to the nav databases on the aircraft themselves. As we are mid-month its doubtful they were out at the first of November (again, the paper charts would need to be updated to match the databases). Maybe we'll do it by NOTAMs.

As as commander and chief, yes he can call up the military and open up restricted airspace. Not like we're fighting a war in the North Atlantic. Just tell the Navy no shooting at 747's.

I'm sure theres a plan for the TRACONS out there to deal with the additional airspace. But the real issues aren't addressed. A bad storm in the northeast and people are screwed. Probably even myself, as I'm one of those fine folks flying this holiday weekend (NRSA at that). And I'm sure OPNL isn't hoping for it to all fall apart, hes one of the people that has to deal with it and make it work.

While i'm o fan of the Prez, I'm less of a fan of how fast the FAA and government doesn't move. Example... in 1963 a FAA study concluded a new NOTAM dstribution system was needed. IN the wake of the LEX crash, its now a big deal. And still not online.

This airspace should have been opened a while back, at least partially. At any rate, its not unusual for commercial aircraft to be cleared through cold military airspace. Nothing new here.

Again, I say its all to make the poiliticians look like we're doing something. Both parties share the guilt IMHO. Now, I'm going to be childlike and play with my airplane.
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OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:19 pm



Quoting Fxra (Reply 25):
Just tell the Navy no shooting at 747's.

Ouch! (Waiting for the TWA 800-downed-by-a-missile crowd to show-up and take the thread off-topic...)  duck 

Quoting Fxra (Reply 25):
And I'm sure OPNL isn't hoping for it to all fall apart, hes one of the people that has to deal with it and make it work.

The only thing I hope for (and work towards) is that all the flights in my sector get safely from A to B with a minimum number of phone/radio cals and ACARS messages. Seems a pretty simple, common sense goal, and not the evil airline conspiracy that some to think.

Quoting Fxra (Reply 25):
Now, I'm going to be childlike and play with my airplane.

Remember, pointy-end first and oily side down...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:31 pm



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
In fact, on Thanksgiving Day, Friday, and Saturday, there are SIGNIFICANTLY LESS flights than during an average week as airlines reduce the number of flights into business markets and operate more on a holiday schedule.

Saturday I don't think you are right. Saturday often has fewer flights in any week, but on Thanksgiving, I've seen airlines add flights. But thursday and friday, it's very true.

I'm flying Friday because it was much cheaper and would be much less congested than flying wednesday, and returning the following wednesday for the same reason (instead of sunday or monday). I can watch football at home on thanksgiving (since we don't do a big dinner anymore anyway), then see family over the weekend when everyone else is scrambling to get back home.

If I flew on Thanksgiving, it would have even been cheaper by nearly $100, but I didn't want to do that.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AFGMEL
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:36 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
because after all he's done such a bang up job at everything else he's touched.

ROFL. Just blame err, lets see, who is left. Blame Vanuatu, it's Vanuatu that's causing delays.

Seriously, it sounds like the US needs a big overhaul with all options including slot restrictions on the table.
B 727-44/200 732/3/4/8/9 767-3 742/3/4, 772/3, A319/20/21 332/333 342/3 , DC3/4/10, F28/50/100, ATR72
 
Mir
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:45 pm

I have to say, for the first time in a long time, the guy covering this story for CNN really knew his stuff. What a refreshing few minutes that was.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyOakland2IAH
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:17 am



Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 7):
Unused Military Airspace will be opened up to commercial flights.

How much will this really help? I thought the problem was more airport/runway congestion, not airspace congestion.
 
tennis69
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:41 am



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):

Privitizing the FAA is the simpliest and only way to turn this around and eliminate delays. The only purpose of our gov't is to guarantee and protect it's citizens life and liberty. No where in our constitution does it address on time arrivals and departures.
 
jimpop
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:06 am



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
There are just more people flying than an ordinary November week

Not really "more people", just more inexperienced traveling people. Seasoned travelers know what/when to avoid during holiday seasons... that leaves mostly just the inexperienced milling around, missing flights, expecting the world, and generally pissing off gate agents with silly questions. Big grin
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:30 am



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
I'd like to see what Bush can do that will reduce delays starting next week.

Opening those express military air lanes will surly help but, I've got an additional idea. Seems popular amongst us airline folk. Everyone else will probably have kittens but, here goes!

That old economics 101 model of Supply and demand. Since the nasty northeast is so popular and populated, the demand for air travel is intense. Why not all of us (airlines) get together and jack up the prices for flights in and out of JFK, EWR, LGA and BOS. Those four airports even in perfect weather conditions during non holiday periods have trouble keeping up. Delays, delays and more delays. Charging premium fares for these airports would be profitable for the airlines. Therefore there could be less flights to those 4 gridlocked airports. In the psychotic northeast you have White Plains, Teterboro, Is lip New burgh, Providence, Manchester an Portland to name a few airports that are in the general area.
There's plenty of demand for international flights that would utilize the big bad four congested airports. And demographically, the New York and Boston areas are higher income and would pay premium rates for the convenience of service into those airports. Meanwhile, lets hope our government can spend some money and bring our air traffic control system into the 21st century and out of the I Love Lucy 1950s. Instead of plundering money abroad and being the watchdog of the third world.
And, does Uncle Sam really need to spend $500 on a toilet seat?
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:01 am



Quoting Tennis69 (Reply 31):
Privitizing the FAA is the simpliest and only way to turn this around and eliminate delays. The only purpose of our gov't is to guarantee and protect it's citizens life and liberty. No where in our constitution does it address on time arrivals and departures.

Privatizing the FAA is the WORST thing you can do! It will not take into consideration the best interest of the American people and will instead respond to investors and money. While I do agree the FAA should do something to rid themselves of the politics and bureaucracy, the FAA will never become privatized. It's like privatizing the IRS or INS. No way! That will never get approved by Congress.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:52 pm



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
It's just damn wonderful that George has shaken some more military airspace loose, but without capacity improvements at the departure and arrival airports, it's tantamount to building a new 6-lane bridge across the river but doing nothing to expand the capacity of the 2-lane road that feeds the 6-lane bridge and feeds the traffic back into the 2-lane road on the other side of the bridge.

True, but opening up more lanes on the East Coast may help reduce the number of AFP's being put in place. As you know, these AFP's right now can cause delay even for planes moving between airports that aren't congested (e.g. BDL to MCO). AFP's were run during both the Thanksgiving and Christmas Holidays last year.

Of course, there's no guarantee that opening up the extra lanes will help, but it really can't hurt.
 
nrcnyc
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:59 pm

Hmm. I'm no expert, but I'm skeptical of anything helping the delay problems if we don't build more airports, more runways and more gates. It's all well and good that there will be a "thanksgiving express lane" or whatever its called, but that still won't mean squat when my flight is number 30 to take off at JFK next Wednesday.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:05 pm



Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 36):
Hmm. I'm no expert, but I'm skeptical of anything helping the delay problems if we don't build more airports, more runways and more gates.

While I do agree more gates and runways are needed to even make a dent to this on-going problem, I think they should be built at the present airports and not at new airports. Furthermore, a big problem also lies in over-crowded skies and that, is not a black hole, it does have its limits. The key, I believe, is to find the optimal efficiency at each airport and try to operate under that optimum as much as possible.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:27 pm



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
True, but opening up more lanes on the East Coast may help reduce the number of AFP's being put in place. As you know, these AFP's right now can cause delay even for planes moving between airports that aren't congested (e.g. BDL to MCO). AFP's were run during both the Thanksgiving and Christmas Holidays last year.

Should we be anticipating alot of AFPs in the fall/winter months of November and December? Is that even relevant to the discussion?

The topic at hand was the opening of these routes (using freed-up military airspace) during the Thanksgiving and Christmas travel periods. While it may help, it doesn't resolve terminal-area or airport capacity issues, i.e. PHL will still be at a 36 rate no matter how many high level routes you have into the place. But then again. freeing up miitary airspace is a simplistic Presidential-looking action that plays into the notion that "enoute" is the phase of flight that is needing help, whilst ignoring the (lesser understood) terminal aspects. I can't envision George getting wrapped up in AARs and the weather that drives them... ("You mean every airport can't run 200 ops an hour?...)  Wink
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:33 pm



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 38):
The topic at hand was the opening of these routes (using freed-up military airspace) during the Thanksgiving and Christmas travel periods. While it may help, it doesn't resolve terminal-area or airport capacity issues, i.e. PHL will still be at a 36 rate no matter how many high level routes you have into the place.

Aww come on, that just means you get more time to hold over BUNTS1, everyone's favorite fix!
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:58 pm



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 38):
Should we be anticipating alot of AFPs in the fall/winter months of November and December? Is that even relevant to the discussion?

AFP's are relevant because that is where any gains from the extra military airspace would be felt. As you point out, you won't be getting any gains in the terminal airspace. Though while the "military airspace" is getting all the press, there are some other changes being made in the NYC/PHL airspace that will help out a little.
 
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:08 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
The Transportation Department has been drafting regulations to increase the bump fees for travelers who buy tickets but wind up without a seat. The department has been considering increasing the fee from $200 to more than $600.

The airlines would then say "No problem, we'll pass on that cost to the customers!!"  banghead 
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OPNLguy
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:09 pm



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 40):
AFP's are relevant because that is where any gains from the extra military airspace would be felt.

You think the need for AFPs during Thanksgiving and Christmas weeks are going to be there?
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
I'm not worried--I'm sure George understands all of it. including the fact that FAA has squandered years and billions on mis-managed projects. NextGen? Should have been here years ago...

Don't get the FAA apologists started man. They'll be in here talkign abotu airline overscheduling and how Southwest needs to buy 787's instead of 737's.

[Edited 2007-11-16 08:13:16]
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:30 pm

The extra lanes will help as there will be less compression.

Question: Will there be more air traffic controllers working or will be be delayed due to controller workload issues?

Was anyone on the Telecon this morning with the command center regarding the plan?


Now when we look at the stats after the holiday make sure that Thursday/Friday and Saturday are removed. Wed and Sun/Mon are the numbers we need to see.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 42):
You think the need for AFPs during Thanksgiving and Christmas weeks are going to be there?

Maybe...obviously the weather will probably be the largest determinant of that. Last year, on the the Sunday after Thanksgiving (heavy travel day), two AFP's ran (FCAA05, FCAA08). Those two AFP's combined created 42,282 minutes of delay spread over 895 flights (average delay of 47 minutes).
 
fxra
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:08 pm



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
Maybe...obviously the weather will probably be the largest determinant of that. Last year, on the the Sunday after Thanksgiving (heavy travel day), two AFP's ran (FCAA05, FCAA08). Those two AFP's combined created 42,282 minutes of delay spread over 895 flights (average delay of 47 minutes).

Take today for example, the only current AFP I see is for Cabo. However, JFK is on a GDP averaging 54 minute delays. Theres no enroute issues, and the given reason for the delays is Wind. currently blowing 29013G24KT. Thats a 30 or so degree the 31's and 70 of the 22's. And thats causing hour delays. EWR is running similar winds and averaging 115 minute delays.

In a simlar situation, ie not ideal but not bad weather, with no enroute constraints you still have 1-2 hour delays. I don;t see how opening space up off the coast wouldn't help this. And one of the AFP's you mention is located in Cleveland Center, the other in Washington airspace. So we may have cut the delays in half.

Does anyone out there have any reliable info on how much the VACAPES routes help when there's weather in KZDC? That seems to be an example of opening up military airspace that we could look back on.

Again, my opinion, opening the airspace may help some with space to manage airborne inventory, but who wants to fly in circles at $95/barrel? In the end its going to be a mess and frustrating for a lot of people, weather or no weather. You'd think we'd have this aviation thing down after 100 years.
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OPNLguy
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:33 pm



Quoting Fxra (Reply 46):
Again, my opinion, opening the airspace may help some with space to manage airborne inventory, but who wants to fly in circles at $95/barrel?

I'd have to agree. It's almost an "iPhone" kind of fix, i.e. hold a press conference that over-simplifies some aspects and that ignores others. Freed-up military airspace isn't going to help raise AARs or prevent the weather/winds that drive them. Doesn't really matter, since "something was done" in the eyes of many, and in today's world, the perception is the reality (if PR was the actual motive.)

Quoting Fxra (Reply 46):
In the end its going to be a mess and frustrating for a lot of people, weather or no weather. You'd think we'd have this aviation thing down after 100 years.

I don't think it's the aviation thing that's AFU, but more the political aspect that's AFU. One doesn't have to be ex-PATCO or current NATCA to wonder where all the money spent on promised upgrades over the last 10-15 years has gone. Mike Boyd (love him or hate him) has said much on that subject in recent years, but nobody in Congress or the public seems to have caught on, or care. Just wait until "NextGen" (really just the delayed "LastGen") gets here... Coming in 2020: NextNextGen!  Wink
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SPREE34
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:01 pm



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
Well increasing the denied boarding compensation will be a big step forward in reducing delays.

How are Denied Boarding and Delays related?

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
I'd like to see what Bush can do that will reduce delays starting next week.

Resign.

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 7):
Unused Military Airspace will be opened up to commercial flights.

This is such BS. This space is opened up on a regular basis. The military does not use it 24 hrs a day now, and they usually take the holiday off as well. It's political BS.

Quoting Fxra (Reply 11):
IMHO opinion, most of these measures are purely for the perception that we are doing something by the politcians.

DING DING DING....You, Sir, have the flick.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
Bush is only trying to make an honest attempt at averting possible incidents like this from happening again

%100 horse crap. He's selling everyday procedures as something new.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
No, what I actually can't wait to see is the day when operational outsiders who don't have Clue-1 from frontline experience of how this stuff works, and should work will maybe start listening to the professionals in the trenches, without assuming that the comments and suggestions of those professionals are automatically for "purely political agenda driven purposes."



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
It's just damn wonderful that George has shaken some more military airspace loose, but without capacity improvements at the departure and arrival airports, it's tantamount to building a new 6-lane bridge across the river but doing nothing to expand the capacity of the 2-lane road that feeds the 6-lane bridge and feeds the traffic back into the 2-lane road on the other side of the bridge.

You have saved me a lot of typing here. Read what this man (OPNLguy) has written folks. He has the flick.

Quoting FlyOakland2IAH (Reply 30):
thought the problem was more airport/runway congestion, not airspace congestion.

You think correctly. There are airspace issues that need fixing, but fixing those just gets the aircraft there earlier and still no runway to use.

Quoting Tennis69 (Reply 31):
Privitizing the FAA is the simpliest and only way to turn this around and eliminate delays. The only purpose of our gov't is to guarantee and protect it's citizens life and liberty. No where in our constitution does it address on time arrivals and departures.

You do not understand the US ATC system. I would ask you to research the privatization of the FAA Flight Service Stations. After that, let me know if you still want private ATC in the US.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 47):
I don't think it's the aviation thing that's AFU, but more the political aspect that's AFU. One doesn't have to be ex-PATCO or current NATCA to wonder where all the money spent on promised upgrades over the last 10-15 years has gone. Mike Boyd (love him or hate him) has said much on that subject in recent years, but nobody in Congress or the public seems to have caught on, or care. Just wait until "NextGen" (really just the delayed "LastGen") gets here... Coming in 2020: NextNextGen!  

I guess I'm going to have to pay you royalties OP.
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I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush To Take On Airline Delays

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:57 am



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 1):
Well increasing the denied boarding compensation will be a big step forward in reducing delays.

I presume that's sarcasm And this is for INVOLUNTARY denied boarding compensation, not when we get volunteers. And that doesn't happen all that much. And sure, why not give someone FOUR TIMES what their ticket is worth. A dumb idea.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
It's scary to think about, but if there's good weather for Thanksgiving and Christmas (i.e. no blizzards and no other delay-producers like reduced cigs/vis in fog/rain), he could actually get out there and try to take credit for the lack of delays...

Any politician would, to be fair. But he will, mark my word.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 9):
The one I love was the airline industry association saying airlines are adding extra flights and more planes next week to cope with demand and minimize delays.

Yes to the first, an "un, no" to the second.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
Big mistake, this will only put himself in more crosshairs of democrats and liberals, that "if" something was to go wrong concerning operations, it will be "Bush's fault". Like OPNLguy, Fxra, and others in the camp of "I can't wait to see how many people miss their thanksgivings because of this stupid plan", are just simply excited by seeing people angry, miserable and upset for purely political agenda driven purposes.

I don't see any political agenda here, really, and you're the only one making politics out of it, my friend.
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