Indy
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Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:39 pm

I remember hearing about the wayport concept many years ago but nothing seems to have come of it. I did a little looking around on the net and it seems the FAA may be interested in this concept as a means of relieving pressure from city airports by moving connecting passengers away from the city to basically rural airports. This isn't like building a baseball field out in the middle of a corn field. I just don't think anyone would use it. You can pull this off with cargo hubs but passenger hubs not so much. There is actually a website dedicated to this. http://wayports.com/index.html

What are your thoughts on this?
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graphic
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:44 pm

It would pretty much double the amount of commercial flights in the U.S. today, why would the FAA crying "Overscheduling! Overcrowding!" even think of wanting something like this?
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Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:51 pm

I don't think its about the number of flights but rather where the flights are going to/from. For example under the current system you'd see.... (remember these numbers are hypothetical)

10x daily ORD-LAX - mainline
8x daily ORD-JFK - mainline
3x daily ORD-some small airport - rj
3x daily ORD-some small airport - rj
3x daily ORD-some small airport - rj
3x daily ORD-some small airport - rj

Under the wayport system it would be...
10x daily ORD-LAX - mainline
8x daily ORD-JFK - mainline
6x daily ORD-BFE wayport - mainline

Let some middle of nowhere facility handle all that rj traffic and then route them to the big city/hub via mainline. To me where would be absolutely no point routing LAX and JFK passengers through a wayport. I wonder how much ORD would benefit from cleaning out all that rj traffic?
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phlwok
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:06 pm

One of the reasons why some passengers hubs work better than others is that the more successful ones have a mix of both O&D and connecting traffic. Rural airports would depend almost exclusively on the latter, and most airlines wouldn't prefer that as there's more risk their loads would be lower. Even places like PIT, which was heavily dependent upon connecting traffic but has a moderate-sized metro area and, at least in theory, a good location to relieve some of the congestion in the NE US, isn't working as a hub these days. MCI and STL (and, lest we forget, BLV, MidAmerica "St Louis" Airport) are also geographically good locations for connecting hubs, but are overshadowed by the likes of DEN, DFW and ORD.
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:11 pm

Would the problem correct itself if the airlines and airports were required to pay for all the expansion work on their own instead of hitting up taxpayers? How would this play out if airlines were told that you either pay for the full cost of expansion at ORD or you use a taxpayer funded wayport? Also with the wayports I believe they would be exclusively connecting traffic.
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BAKJet
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:13 pm

I don't really understand the idea of wayports, could someone please explain then to me.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:21 pm



Quoting Indy (Reply 4):
Would the problem correct itself if the airlines and airports were required to pay for all the expansion work on their own instead of hitting up taxpayers?

We wouldn't have much expansion at airports if carriers were required to pay for it. If that's your definition of the problem correcting itself then yes, the problem would be corrected.

Quoting Indy (Reply 4):
How would this play out if airlines were told that you either pay for the full cost of expansion at ORD or you use a taxpayer funded wayport?

Then, carriers would take a third option: keep the status quo.
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cloudboy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:42 pm



Quoting BAKJet (Reply 5):
I don't really understand the idea of wayports, could someone please explain then to me.

From what I gather, a Wayport is simply a hub airport, but one that is not actually associated with a city. It's one of those quick-thought not really thought out ideas. The theory is that you move the connecting flights from an airport in a city to an airport out in the boonies. Some how they seem to think this would somehow reduce traffic at airports.

It doesn't make much sense, though. The only place it reduces traffic is at hubs, and it's not like every airport is a hub. For that matter, those airports that are hubs and are overcrowded are overcrowded simply because they are hubs. You are just going to move the connection problem somewhere else, and on top of it you will now have to add flights back to the city that was the original hub. Quite frankly, there are plenty of cities that have more than adequate space to support hub flying, but currently are well underutilized.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
BAKJet
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 7):


Quoting BAKJet (Reply 5):
I don't really understand the idea of wayports, could someone please explain then to me.

From what I gather, a Wayport is simply a hub airport, but one that is not actually associated with a city. It's one of those quick-thought not really thought out ideas. The theory is that you move the connecting flights from an airport in a city to an airport out in the boonies. Some how they seem to think this would somehow reduce traffic at airports.

It doesn't make much sense, though. The only place it reduces traffic is at hubs, and it's not like every airport is a hub. For that matter, those airports that are hubs and are overcrowded are overcrowded simply because they are hubs. You are just going to move the connection problem somewhere else, and on top of it you will now have to add flights back to the city that was the original hub. Quite frankly, there are plenty of cities that have more than adequate space to support hub flying, but currently are well underutilized.

I get it now. The idea is cool, at first. But, then you realize airports won't be anyless crowded. It is still a hub.

BTW-Waht would they be called if they are not associated with a city (Wayport 12A???)   . Could a wayport be your destination if was the closes place to your destination.

[Edited 2007-11-17 14:46:53]

[Edited 2007-11-17 14:48:03]
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:03 pm

I wondered myself how the wayport system would work if it happened to be where you wanted to go. If you opened it up to o/d then you'd be starting the problem all over again. The problem really isn't airport crowding but rather aircraft congestion. Using ORD as an example a wayport could be used as a RJ hub basically. Bring the regional jets to the wayport and combine the passengers on a mainline flight to ORD. So you'd have 1 flight then instead of 2 or 3. If the person arriving on the RJ was heading to another RJ destination they'd just skip ORD completely. Those going to Chicago or a mid size or large airport would go to ORD and either terminate their trip or connect on a mainline flight to another destination. Basically its using your limited space at ORD a bit more wisely. Why bring in 40 people in a jet when you can bring in over 120? Building a wayport would likely cost far less than expansion at a large airport where even adding a runway costs a billion dollars.
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cloudboy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:13 am

But people wouldn't connect through ORD anymore in your scenario. You would be adding extra stops, which is already a big issue. All you are doing is shifting the traffic away from one airport, in this case ORD, and shifting it somewhere else. You still will be accommodating the same number of passengers traveling through, but now you have to add Chicago traffic on top of that. While in theory you can say you can expand infinitely out in the suburbs, the reality is that there aren't going to be many places people are going to let you build these huge airports. And there comes a point when you can't just keep adding runways - traffic starts interfering with itself. It also doesn't address the main issue - congestion, both with the number of people in the airport as well as the number of planes waiting to land and take off.

Fact is, if you are willing to make concessions, the easy thing to do is use larger planes, but there are a whole raft of arguments against that as well. The idea is noble, but the reality is uncooperative.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
ram025
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:46 am

Wouldnt this be like regulation all over again?
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:28 am

You are handling the same number of passengers but you are doing it with fewer flights in and out of ORD. If the USA Today report is correct that ORD is nearly half regional jet service now using a wayport would relieve a great deal of pressure. You could take for example 200 of those daily regional jet flights and move them to the wayport. That is a reduction of 400 actions daily. Now run 70 daily mainline flights between the wayport and ORD. Thats an increase of 140 actions. The result is a net decrease of 260 daily actions at ORD. So you would need a wayport with a pair of runways to handle the traffic of 270 daily departures.

So what would cutting 130 daily departures from ORD do to delays?
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silentbob
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:39 am

You're still running all of those RJ flights to the wayport and now adding a mainline flight from that wayport to ORD.
The problems I see: (yes some have been covered already)
Passengers will not want an additional connection where luggage and time is lost
Airlines will not want to add additional legs that passengers don't want to fly
Airlines will not want to add all of the additional staff at the new wayport
Airlines will not want to buy all of the new ground equipment required at the new wayport
Nobody will want to pay the billions of dollars for the new wayport
 
Vctony
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:44 am

This has already been tried. MEM serves, in a sense, as a waypoint for NW. CVG serves, in a sense, as a waypoint for DL. PIT used to serve this function for US. MEM and CVG were cut dramatically when the industry went sour and the PIT hub was eliminated altogether. It seems that the money isn't made with the connections, it's made with the O/D passengers. I can't see how airlines would make money in the waypoint system. If anything, the major airlines would just stop serving the smaller destinations and it is conceivable that you could see only service from ORD to other large O/D destinations. If such a system was implemented, kiss most air service to metro areas with populations less than 750,000 goodbye, IMHO.
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:56 am



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
Nobody will want to pay the billions of dollars for the new wayport

Then let them pay countless billions to expand places like ORD. And by them I mean the airlines and the passengers that use those airlines.
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Vctony
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:00 am

What theoretically should happen is that we develop some sort of high speed train system to link these wayports to the main airport/cities. I've always thought high speed rail and airline system would work well. For example, what if a wayport was built in Rochelle, IL that had high speed train links to downtown Chicago, as well as ORD, MDW, and RFD. In that sense, the traffic between the waypoint and main airport (as well as city) would all be via the train.
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:13 am

Something like maglev maybe where the service is hundreds of miles per hour?
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PanHAM
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:02 am

Without O&D traffic there is no hub. Simple as that. It has to be a good mix of business and leisure traffic to which the transfer passengers add.

There are "Wayports existing today, they are calles secondary or tertiary hubs, Without local traffic, they cannot exist.
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Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:04 am

You have to look at this wayport concept as basically a package hub much like what FX runs in MEM and IND. Basically they are nothing more than connection only hubs. It sounds like that is what they are shooting for with this wayport concept.
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PanHAM
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:48 am

There is a big difference between cargo and self loading cargo. What works for freight, doesn ot work for passengers. Freight does not care where it is distributed, the criteria are cut-off and delivery times. What happens between these two key times does not affect shipper and consignee.

Passengers need a wide variety of offers, some are time sensitive only, most are cost sensitive as well and for the carrier, the yield mix is most important. A hub without local traffic is not sustainable.

There are some well equipped, under used airports in the centre of America, MCI, STL If an airline sees an opportunity there, they will take it.

No need to build new facilities in Rochelle IL, or other places, when there is existing, underused infrastructure.

.
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Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:10 pm

How would you resolve this issue without costing the taxpayers endless billions of dollars? It just seems we'll be seeing so little return on tax dollar by attempting to rework ORD. Look what happened in ATL. They spent $1.2 billion for a 5th runway and it accomplished what? ATL was ranked dead last in departure delays in September of 2007.

http://www.avoiddelays.com/worst-off...ost-delayed-departure-airports.asp

They were dead last/worst in departure delays. What is the hope for them now?
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brucek
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:35 pm

This is an interesting topic.

Despite the call for better technology and airspace management for the FAA (which is still needed for other reasons), the cause of delays will still be limited (in my opinion) by airport runway infrastrcture capacity. These hubs that we now have at places like ORD do have a significant amount of local traffic to support them, however perhaps limited options in expanding runways. I live near DEN and occasionally do a practice ILS into there at night time when traffic levels are less, and it's obvious that not only is there runway layout really efficient (all 6 runways can be almost operated in isolation to each other- no crossing runways, and very good for converging approaches and diverging departures); but even further runway expansion is really achievable. DEN is built a long way from the city, which to some extent led to the forced closure of Stapleton and no airline access to the feeder airports at BJC and APA, so travellers are forced to drive the 20-30 miles to DEN from the city. This seems to be a compromise between Wayports and the older more traditional (as in ORD) hib airports, and is high;y successful here at DEN- with no curfews to boot as it's so far from any population centers.

Bruce.
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:53 pm

Is it even possible to do in Atlanta and/or Chicago what was done in Denver? Or on a larger scale what is being done in Dubai? Build a brand new ATL & ORD far outside of the city. Just a thought.
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Vctony
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:58 pm

Rural Illinois and Rural Georgia likely have enough room for large airports. However, and I know this sounds like I should be posting this on railroads.net (don't know if that exists or not) a better, more sustainable, solution would be to develop a high speed rail network up and down the east coast/Midwest. Use the airports for long distance travel (as well as some regional travel inaccessible by the rail network) and use the train for the high capacity routes.
 
ScottB
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:22 pm



Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
Look what happened in ATL. They spent $1.2 billion for a 5th runway and it accomplished what? ATL was ranked dead last in departure delays in September of 2007.

Departure delays aren't as relevant as arrival delays, and ATL did do somewhat better for arrival delays. The fact that EV has about 1/3 of the operations in and out of ATL doesn't help, either. In any event, if a new $1.2 billion runway at ATL reduces costs for AirTran and Delta by only 1% annually, it actually is an excellent investment. Or, in other words, with close to 100 million passengers annually, saving a buck or two on the average passenger adds up very, very quickly. The same goes for ORD.

Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
How would you resolve this issue without costing the taxpayers endless billions of dollars?

It's not "costing the taxpayers endless billions of dollars." The people who are paying for these projects are the people who are seeing the benefits from these projects -- airline passengers. The money that pays for the new ATL runway, the ORD reconfiguration, IAH's new runway, etc. comes from the aviation trust fund (which itself comes from taxes on airline tickets) and from rents and fees at the airports themselves.

Quoting Brucek (Reply 22):
This seems to be a compromise between Wayports and the older more traditional (as in ORD) hib airports, and is high;y successful here at DEN- with no curfews to boot as it's so far from any population centers.

Unfortunately, the cost of building the new DEN was probably as much as or more than the cost of reconfiguring ORD -- and that was over a decade ago. And there is a cost associated with making people travel an extra 30 minutes or hour to and from a new airport.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:39 pm

Better management of airports can significantly reduce this.

Look at any "Second airport for ATL" thread and you'll see the same theme come up over and over again, "Delta would fight against it", "It would hurt Delta, a political non-starter", this and that, yadda yadda, which won't ever end up in anything.

The problem: politicians and lobbyist. So long government has a say in this, nothing will be fixed. At best temporarily patched up. Privatize Hartsfield would be a major help.

[Edited 2007-11-18 10:57:55]
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MKE22
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:49 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
There are some well equipped, under used airports in the centre of America, MCI, STL If an airline sees an opportunity there, they will take it.

YX operates a secondary hub at MCI.  Cool
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:20 pm



Quoting BAKJet (Reply 5):
I don't really understand the idea of wayports, could someone please explain then to me.

The "oldschool" definitions based on OUTBOUND traffic source (O&D or connecting from an inbound flight):

0 to 30% connecting traffic: Spoke. Examples BOS and anything that only sees RJ's
30% to 70% connecting traffic: Hub. Examples ORD, LAX
70% or more outbound is connecting traffic: Wayport, examples DXB at ATL was briefly 70.1% (IIRC)  Wink

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Without O&D traffic there is no hub. Simple as that. It has to be a good mix of business and leisure traffic to which the transfer passengers add.

Exactly.
RASM is driven by convenience. If a city can support nonstop to XXX, business travelers will preferentially take it. Why stop in a wayport? By definition its somewhere where most of the travelers don't want to stop. Better to add more parallel runways where people want to fly and bypass the hubs. (e.g., in the US SFO, JFK, ORD (planned), PHX, LAS2), etc.

From a west coast perspective, wayports just don't make sense. PHX, LAS2, DEN, IAH and other airports are expanding. We won't have a shortage of hub space. What will be lacking is slots at certain east coast airports. But with IAD expanding... why consider a wayport? That will offload ATL and in some cases ORD (not many). But for what IAD cannot offload ORD, you have DEN.  spin 

What's needed is more parallel runways at the destinations. e.g., SAN2, LAS2...

Quoting ScottB (Reply 25):

Unfortunately, the cost of building the new DEN was probably as much as or more than the cost of reconfiguring ORD

True, but ORD will fill the demand.  Wink Should Chicago get a 3rd airport? Sure, if it can be started cheap enough. It can then grow into a hub.  hyper  Starting a Wayport off... doesn't usually work. Let's put it this way, there is a reason Dubai is trying to grow their O&D traffic (currently hotel room limited, amazingly enough). But EK went for being the middle-east's dominant hub at the right time. They must convert a wayport into a hub or hub-bypass by 9W, IT, and even AI will make them valueless.

Let's put it this way. I think EK is growing dramatically partially due to the lack of long haul widebody aircraft. Now, its another thread on the long term there... but is there a shortage of trans-continental aircraft in the US? At today's yields, I would say no. So any domestic wayport is going to be killed by hub-bypass. International? No point. No wayport will get that traffic. Look at the smaller hubs, they're begging for international traffic and do not get it as they cannot support it. It takes a mega-hub like DFW to attract international flights driven by the connecting traffic.

Quoting Indy (Reply 23):
Is it even possible to do in Atlanta and/or Chicago what was done in Denver? Or on a larger scale what is being done in Dubai? Build a brand new ATL & ORD far outside of the city. Just a thought.

For Chicago there is a proposal to do it to the south. Plenty of farmland if you get far enough away from the city. ATL? Maybe... But it will be like IAD. The new airport will struggle for 15 years until enough businesses build up around it. e.g., ONT is still struggling to get enough flights to be a true alternative to LAX.

Lightsaber
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BAe146
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:58 pm



Quoting Vctony (Reply 24):
I should be posting this on railroads.net (don't know if that exists or not)

Close, there's http://www.railpictures.net/
 
Indy
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:01 pm



Quoting ScottB (Reply 25):

Departure delays aren't as relevant as arrival delays, and ATL did do somewhat better for arrival delays.

Their arrival delays were bad too. Better than 1 in 5 arrivals in ATL were delayed. And that is as good as it is going to get. They've built their new runway and it didn't fix anything. Now what?
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windstepper
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:35 pm

Just my  twocents . Build RJ aiports to relieve congestion at the ORD's and ATL's and connect the airports with a
rail system like the one going from HKG to downtown. Could even have stations along the way where people can
check-in without having to go to the main airport and then ride the train. Would relieve airport ground traffic as well.
 
iaddca
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:05 am

the wayport concept was an academic, knee-jerk, 1980s response to all the hubbing that took place right after de-reg

plenty of other ridiculous ideas about aviation have popped out of the ivory tower, only this one found its way into the mainstream media, before all the legacies starting giving elite status to O&D travelers who lived near the hubs
 
avek00
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:09 am



Quoting Vctony (Reply 14):
CVG serves, in a sense, as a waypoint for DL

I greatly beg to differ on this. CVG is still a sizeable hub in its own right, with a number of daily departures that rivals CO at EWR.
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rampart
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:21 am



Quoting Brucek (Reply 22):
DEN is built a long way from the city, which to some extent led to the forced closure of Stapleton and no airline access to the feeder airports at BJC and APA, so travellers are forced to drive the 20-30 miles to DEN from the city. This seems to be a compromise between Wayports and the older more traditional (as in ORD) hib airports, and is high;y successful here at DEN- with no curfews to boot as it's so far from any population centers.

When regional planners were scoping a new site for what was to become DIA, in the early 80s, the "wayport" idea was a consideration. Several distant sites were considered: east and equidistant between Colorado Springs and Denver (that's >40 miles from either city's center), or way out in Elbert County to the southeast, or way north toward Greeley and Fort Collins. There was a flurry of real estate speculation in those areas. Planners were possibly considering keeping Stapleton open if a distant airport became reality. At the time, three airlines had hubs at DEN, plus AA had some discussions about establishing a new hub there. Removing connecting traffic to a remote airport was an idea worth exploring.

Like you say, though, DIA was the better solution.

-Rampart
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:31 am

Basically there's a Wayport waiting to happen. The PIT Airport is built for a connecting hub but isn't in the big cities like NYC, PHL, ORD.

It's been built, will they come?
 
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:48 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
Basically there's a Wayport waiting to happen. The PIT Airport is built for a connecting hub but isn't in the big cities like NYC, PHL, ORD.

It's been built, will they come?

 rotfl 

Not to mention STL, ICT... and as I noted before, IAD, DEN, and IAH will be ready to take on more traffic as well as PHX, LAS2 and a few others. No need to build a wayport.


We don't need another new airport. We need runways for the existing ones. (Ok, LAS and SAN need new airports... what we don't need is a wayport.)

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Vctony
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:30 am



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 36):
Not to mention STL, ICT... and as I noted before, IAD, DEN, and IAH will be ready to take on more traffic as well as PHX, LAS2 and a few others. No need to build a wayport.

I beg to differ with PHX. PHX is located in the heart of the urban core (only about 3 miles from downtown Phoenix and about the same distance from downtown Tempe). With I-10 to the West and AZ 143 to the East and a host of dense development to the north and the Salt River to the south, PHX will max out before IAD, DEN, and IAH. I know that all of the hangers to the north of Runway 08/26 could possibly be demolished to make a 4th parallel runway (but I doubt that this will ever get built due to NIMBY opposition). Honestly, IWA/AZA may have a major role in about 10-15 years. This is why Phoenix invested in IWA/AZA as that airport holds the future of the area's aviation needs.
 
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:58 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
Basically there's a Wayport waiting to happen. The PIT Airport is built for a connecting hub but isn't in the big cities like NYC, PHL, ORD.

It's been built, will they come?

They came, they saw, they demanded, they under-delivered, they ripped us off blind, they left.  crazy 
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avek00
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:12 pm



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
It's been built, will they come?

Nope. PIT wasted its money.
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ScottB
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:57 pm



Quoting Indy (Reply 30):
Better than 1 in 5 arrivals in ATL were delayed. And that is as good as it is going to get. They've built their new runway and it didn't fix anything. Now what?

Actually, I don't think it is as simple as "[t]hey've built their new runway and it didn't fix anything." We don't know what the delays would have been like in ATL without the new runway; i.e. if 40% of flights would have arrived late without the fifth runway having been built.
 
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:36 pm



Quoting ScottB (Reply 40):
Actually, I don't think it is as simple as "[t]hey've built their new runway and it didn't fix anything." We don't know what the delays would have been like in ATL without the new runway; i.e. if 40% of flights would have arrived late without the fifth runway having been built.

It doesn't really matter in this case what it would have been. The point is they have their 5th runway and it wasn't any better than this and it will likely never get any better than this. At least without cutting flights.
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Tornado82
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting ZTagged (Reply 38):


They came, they saw, they demanded, they under-delivered, they ripped us off blind, they left. crazy

Agreed... then they whine when our politicians call them out for these very truths.
 
N1120A
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:02 am



Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
You can pull this off with cargo hubs but passenger hubs not so much.

With this point I agree. Cargo doesn't care where it gets off, as long as there are roads and rail lines connecting to the place. This is why ONT is such an important cargo airport.

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
I wonder how much ORD would benefit from cleaning out all that rj traffic?

ORD would benefit from bringing back props combined with an increase in mainline replacement of RJ traffic.

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 3):
One of the reasons why some passengers hubs work better than others is that the more successful ones have a mix of both O&D and connecting traffic.

ATL anyone? You don't need a whole lot of O&D to create a mega hub

Quoting Ram025 (Reply 11):
Wouldnt this be like regulation all over again?

Not really

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):

Then let them pay countless billions to expand places like ORD. And by them I mean the airlines and the passengers that use those airlines.



Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
How would you resolve this issue without costing the taxpayers endless billions of dollars?

The taxpayers receive a lot of benefit in the form of increased tax revenues.

Quoting Indy (Reply 23):
Is it even possible to do in Atlanta and/or Chicago what was done in Denver?

Atlanta, perhaps, but I don't think Chicago has enough land that close in to do such a thing. Remember, DEN really isn't all that far out.

Quoting Vctony (Reply 24):
However, and I know this sounds like I should be posting this on railroads.net (don't know if that exists or not) a better, more sustainable, solution would be to develop a high speed rail network up and down the east coast/Midwest.

Not to mention on the West Coast as well. In reality, a hub to hub system that criss crossed the US could make HSR really viable.
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:24 am



Quoting Vctony (Reply 37):
I beg to differ with PHX.

Please do. I'd love to see Ted Williams International gateway take off. But I'm also reading about terminal and runway expansion at PHX. Yes, the 4th runway would plow down a lot of homes... But it is an option. Let's just say there is a reason no one will let me plan the LHR expansion.  Wink

But even if PHX airport doesn't expand, Phoenix as a city will have its demand met... somewhere. And thus that new airport could itself grow into a hub.  spin 

Lightsaber
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contrails
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:43 am

I've been interested in this concept since Congress held hearings on it back in the 90's. It sounds good, in theory, but I see two big problems with it:

1. Where will these wayports be? The only real estate I can think of that's available is in the west, most of which is owned by the U.S. government. The NIMBY crowd would hold up any airport construction anywhere else. Would the land owned by the government be suitable for an airport? There aren't any roads, much less people. I just can't see where these wayports could be put.

2. The costs would be astronomical. New runways, terminals, gates, radar installations, you name it. The price would run into the trillions. Plus you'd have to hire hundreds of new people to run these airports.

A great theory, but not practical, imo.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
ORD would benefit from bringing back props combined with an increase in mainline replacement of RJ traffic.

The problem with props at ORD is that, for a time, all-jet was a HUGE selling point for MQ versus UA Express (in fact, there's still some MQ advertising around ORD boasting about all jet service). Unless the government forces them, neither UA nor AA is going to be first to take the plunge.

[Edited 2007-11-20 10:23:17]
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N1120A
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:45 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):

The problem with props at ORD is that, for a time, all-jet was a HUGE selling point for MQ versus UA Express (in fact, there's still some MQ advertising around ORD boasting about all jet service).

I realize that was the flawed reasoning behind it, but it may well be a negotiating point with the FAA against a reduction in runway capacity.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):

I realize that was the flawed reasoning behind it, but it may well be a negotiating point with the FAA against a reduction in runway capacity.

Tough to say... I sense that the threat not to increase runway capacity when the new runway comes online was an empty one.
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RE: Will Wayports Ever Happen In The U.S.?

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:04 am

yields would be very low due to the lack of local traffic......given places like PIT, CVG and MEM all with populations over 1 million barely survive as hubs, I dont see a wayport sitting inthe middle of Kansas anytime soon.