LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

Varig: MAD Is Back!

Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:02 pm

Considering information now available on their website as well as Amadeus, VARIG will be back to MAD effective December 17th with 2 daily flights from São Paulo with Boeing 767-300ER:

First, an overnight GRU-MAD and daylight MAD-GRU

Eff. December 17
8714 GRU 0010 MAD 1330
8715 MAD 1455 GRU 2235

And a second plane will be added to the route producing an overnight MAD-GRU and the first daylight GRU-MAD.

Eff. December 21
8710 GRU 1050 MAD 2359
8711 MAD 0115 GRU 0855

With this, in a short period of weeks, GRU-MAD come from a 14x weekly route (IB 12x plus CA 2x) to an amazing 38x weekly route (IB 14x CA 3x JJ 7x RG 14x) or almost 3 times higher.

Considering additional services to FRA (TAM and also now LH flies GRU-FRA and EZE-FRA), LIS (TP GIG-LIS +5x weekly, TP GRU-LIS +2x weekly and TP BSB-LIS 5x weekly new service), CDG (AF GIG-CDG +7x plus new service RG GIG-GRU-CDG-FCO daily), LHR (seasonal BA +3x weekly), as well as upgrades like LH (MUC to A346 from A343), KL (77W from 772), LX (+1 weekly flight), seems that fares will really become lower after January.


Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:11 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
seems that fares will really become lower after January.

Felipe, I already observe this. When I quote AMS-GRU or BRU-GRU for March I get fares for 600€ all-in. Never saw that before.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:19 pm

Good to see them in Madrid, but 2x daily is overkill. Better use of planes, I guess. Supposedly, when they resume MIA and JFK in March, they will both be 2x daily as well.
a.
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:44 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Considering information now available on their website as well as Amadeus, VARIG will be back to MAD effective December 17th with 2 daily flights from São Paulo with Boeing 767-300ER:

Something tells me these won't last much longer. I can see RG trying to make 1 daily flight work, but 2 is totally over capacity for them. I wonder how low would they sell it??

Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead??? I guess they have to secure their frequencies, after all, profitability is not a GOL/RG priority.
 
Pu752
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:20 am



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 3):
Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead???

If IB doesnt even fly a daily GIG-MAD how come RG could sostain that service?
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:09 am



Quoting PU752 (Reply 4):
If IB doesnt even fly a daily GIG-MAD how come RG could sostain that service?

IB not flying GIG-MAD daily led UX to fly to GIG as well...

The thing is that IB is playing around, since TP flies 15x weekly to GIG and AF 14x.

[Edited 2007-11-19 18:11:45]
 
Avianca
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Eff. December 17
8714 GRU 0010 MAD 1330
8715 MAD 1455 GRU 2235

And a second plane will be added to the route producing an overnight MAD-GRU and the first daylight GRU-MAD.

Eff. December 21
8710 GRU 1050 MAD 2359
8711 MAD 0115 GRU 0855

will they have any interline agreements ex MAD to onforward passengers... ?? well the 8710 is very limited for conecting passengers...
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:32 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Good to see them in Madrid, but 2x daily is overkill. Better use of planes, I guess. Supposedly, when they resume MIA and JFK in March, they will both be 2x daily as well.

Right, MIA should return on March and EWR (not JFK) on April. Seems that they should face some problems with JFK (connected with old-RG or even excessive congestion).

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 3):
Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead??? I guess they have to secure their frequencies, after all, profitability is not a GOL/RG priority.

Good question, but i don't have a reply. Seems that they like to waste money.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:10 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Right, MIA should return on March and EWR (not JFK) on April. Seems that they should face some problems with JFK (connected with old-RG or even excessive congestion).

I don't think there are any problems with JFK, since either JFK and EWR are run by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:54 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):

Right, MIA should return on March and EWR (not JFK) on April. Seems that they should face some problems with JFK (connected with old-RG or even excessive congestion).

Do you know if VARIG will be smart and serve MIA from GRU and GIG (GRU redeye/GIG daylight), or will both flights be from GRU?
a.
 
laca773
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:52 am

Will RG reinstate LAX service or is it still undecided who will pick up this route they used to fly?

LACA773
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:38 am



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 10):
Will RG reinstate LAX service or is it still undecided who will pick up this route they used to fly?

VARIG has no plans to resume to LAX. If a Brazilian airline flies to LAX, TAM is more likely.
a.
 
laca773
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:21 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
VARIG has no plans to resume to LAX. If a Brazilian airline flies to LAX, TAM is more likely.

That's what I was thinking as well. Any thoughts as to when JJ might start service to LAX? What a/c would they use?

LACA773
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:31 am



Quoting PU752 (Reply 4):
If IB doesnt even fly a daily GIG-MAD how come RG could sostain that service?

It will be as of Jan 08.

Also there were rumors of Air Europa increasing their flights to GIG.

I think it would be much better if they offered GIG-MAD. Or else, they could use the aircraft for non-stop GRU-FCO.
 
aaexp
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:36 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:42 pm

Isn't TAM also starting GIG/GRU-MAD (DEC 07)?
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:20 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Do you know if VARIG will be smart and serve MIA from GRU and GIG (GRU redeye/GIG daylight), or will both flights be from GRU?

Both from GRU by the first moment. RG GIG-MIA service is expected for July or August/08 with 1 or 2 flights, but not decided yet. TAM is also focusing to begin GIG-MIA by October 2008 and GIG-JFK between the end of 2008/begin 2009.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
VARIG has no plans to resume to LAX. If a Brazilian airline flies to LAX, TAM is more likely.

Correct ! RG destinations in US will be limited to EWR and MIA. The one with plans for LAX is JJ.

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 14):
Isn't TAM also starting GIG/GRU-MAD (DEC 07)?

Yes, will begin by December 07 (also) with a daily service.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
SAOAP
Posts: 142
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:21 pm



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):

As far as I know the reason VRG has decided to start GRU-MAD double daily is simply so that they wouldn't loose the slots. Italy will be served non-stop in the future though it'll have to wait until more planes become available - for now, the slots have been secured and I suppose that there could be some local traffic between Paris and Rome which VRG could use for their advantage.

Right now Varig needs to re-establish itself in São Paulo before moving on. Once that's done, I'm positive they will turn their attention to Rio again. While the yield might not be that interesting as the yields in São Paulo (though I suspect we'll be seeing a major drop due to the extremely agressive capacity increase), the volume is certainly there and in a time where volume could make the difference at the end of the day, it could be just what they need.

Cheers,

Marcelo
"When it's dark enough, you can see the stars" - Charles A. Beard
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:55 pm



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 3):
Something tells me these won't last much longer. I can see RG trying to make 1 daily flight work, but 2 is totally over capacity for them. I wonder how low would they sell it??

Why don't they go for non-stop GIG-MAD instead??? I guess they have to secure their frequencies, after all, profitability is not a GOL/RG priority.

The new Varig is going against another Brazilian competitor - TAM - which has several handicaps. It has expanded slowly into international markets to fill the void of the old Varig. TAM is hardly established in service to Europe and has a culture of risk aversion. Service to Paris was started in June 1999. In 2001 it tried GRU-FRA-ZRH but that service lasted for only a few months. When it decided to expand again, it added more Paris service. It was not until October 2006 that TAM added a second destination in Europe, London. The market is up for grabs and Varig/Gol wants to be the largest airline in the market.

Step #1 is to secure frequencies in the environment of restrictive bilaterals. This is difficult with a fleet that cannot be expanded quickly enough. Varig then ends up bizarre schedules because it has to keep airplanes in the air pretty much all the time. After Varig is done with securing frequencies where it risks losing them to competitors, it will move on to step #2, which is to offer an attractive schedule to business travelers, especially in nonstop markets like GRU-MAD. Then Varig will focus on building connections between domestic and international services.

As for GIG-MAD, Iberia already has service there and GRU-MAD is a very large market.

Then TAM has an issue of costs and fleet flexibility. A330s, a couple of A340s, three MD11s, 777-300s for delivery next year and A350s down the road. The cost of keeping spare parts and trained personel for all those fleet types is going to be very high. Varig on the other hand is setting up a poor man's fleet of widebodies with 767s. As long as the interiors are new and standard, passengers will not care. Actually the 767 is great in coach because only 1 out of 7 seats is a middle seat. Varig will likely have a considerable cost advantage over TAM.
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AF022
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:58 pm

Has RG started using the B767-200ER yet? If not, when?
 
MAH4546
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:38 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Both from GRU by the first moment. RG GIG-MIA service is expected for July or August/08 with 1 or 2 flights,

So are you saying that Varig might be offering as many as four daily flights to MIA? Wow.
a.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:40 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):

All what you said makes perfect sense, but the problem is the fleet. VARIG's fleet will grow very slowly and there is no way that will be able to expand domestic services like you are saying. They will either have to rely on GOL for the connections at GRU or they will have to decrease service at CGH. The other problem is the small widebody fleet. They will not be able to run so many frequencies with good schedules, if they are planning so many routes. RG is expected to have only 14 767 and only 22 737 frames in 2008.

What can be flown with the 767?

2x MAD - 2 frames
1x CDG - 2 frames
2x FRA - 4 frames
1x LHR - 2 frames
1x FCO - 2 frames
1x EWR - 1 frame
1x MIA - 1 frame

I guess that they can use the returning planes from FCO and CDG to run flights to MIA and leave the dedicated frame to have EWR twice daily. The thing is that the aircraft utilization will be high and there will be no spare.
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:14 pm



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
2x MAD - 2 frames
1x CDG - 2 frames
2x FRA - 4 frames
1x LHR - 2 frames
1x FCO - 2 frames
1x EWR - 1 frame
1x MIA - 1 frame


+ MEX 1 Frame, though 762
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
What can be flown with the 767?

Your schedule will return about 14:30h daily utilization, which is not out of the ordinary.
If Varig flies all overnight sectors where it can, this schedule would likely generate a maintenance problem because no aircraft would be on the ground long enough to go through a long check. But, all it takes is to schedule a daylight out of FRA and the problem is solved. It is unlikely Varig can run two flights to FRA profitably, but hogging that market is a good way to pester TAM.

Varig may be able to use new 737s to add service to the US as well, in markets like BSB-MIA and MAO-EWR.
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FCFONTESTORRES
Posts: 11
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:55 pm

Finally!!! Next time...BRAZIL by VARIG, VARIG, VARIG!! Thanks GOD!!! I'm sick of flying only TAP and IBERIA!! It will be cheaper take an EasyJet to Barajas and than take a VARIG plane to Brazil rather than go by TAP or IBERIA!! Thanks God!!

Although VARIG planes are older by the moment, their pitch are good and their service much better than those two European carriers.

Nice ladies as well

Best Regards,

Fernando C. Fontes Torres
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:01 pm



Quoting LH506 (Reply 21):
+ MEX 1 Frame, though 762

Oh yes! I forgot! It gets even worse.
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:15 pm

Sorry to some of you but some things really makes me laugh......

This fantastic company is using fantastic B763s and they have plenty of them to operate to all destinations they want. Their loads are also fantastic. Also fantastic is their advantage over all competitors and more fantastic is their ability to waste money like already said above.

And please, I beg to some of your here, interested in make a personal attack to me, thinking this is another thread between JJ and G3, please don´t waste time. This has nothing to do with this, but an opinion.

They are weak, with poor fleet, still internal conflicts, making G3 loose more money than expected.

During the peak of their crisis, I was very critisized for some post I did because some never believed their fate. Time told and time will tell again.
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:19 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
The new Varig is going against another Brazilian competitor - TAM - which has several handicaps. It has expanded slowly into international markets to fill the void of the old Varig. TAM is hardly established in service to Europe and has a culture of risk aversion. Service to Paris was started in June 1999. In 2001 it tried GRU-FRA-ZRH but that service lasted for only a few months. When it decided to expand again, it added more Paris service. It was not until October 2006 that TAM added a second destination in Europe, London. The market is up for grabs and Varig/Gol wants to be the largest airline in the market.

While RG is trying to come back to Europe, TAM has already established itself in the main markets, which are CDG & LHR, apart from MXP. There is no way RG is going to threat JJ in the CDG market.

I do agree RG is going head to head against JJ in MAD and even has an small advantage in FRA (although after LH&JJ code share things will be tougher for RG).

Keep in mind that even RG setting its goal towards JJ, the market is much tougher now. Almost all European airlines have increased considerably their presence in Brazil. RG may have very ambitious plans, but one thing is putting all those plans in the air, another one is actually making a profit out of it. That in the end is what matters. So far we've seen only one side of the story.
 
C010T3
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:32 pm



Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 25):
Sorry to some of you but some things really makes me laugh......

This fantastic company is using fantastic B763s and they have plenty of them to operate to all destinations they want. Their loads are also fantastic. Also fantastic is their advantage over all competitors and more fantastic is their ability to waste money like already said above.

And please, I beg to some of your here, interested in make a personal attack to me, thinking this is another thread between JJ and G3, please don´t waste time. This has nothing to do with this, but an opinion.

They are weak, with poor fleet, still internal conflicts, making G3 loose more money than expected.

During the peak of their crisis, I was very critisized for some post I did because some never believed their fate. Time told and time will tell again.

I think your mixing up old RG with new RG. I do not see a reason for the sarcasm here. If you think RG+G3 doesn't pose a threat to JJ, why did you waste your time on it?
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:44 pm



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 27):
I think your mixing up old RG with new RG. I do not see a reason for the sarcasm here. If you think RG+G3 doesn't pose a threat to JJ, why did you waste your time on it?

Sorry but your thoughts are wrong. First I don´t think they are a threat to JJ nor to anybody else.

To me there is no difference between the old and the new one unless a judge in the middle.

I agree with you 100%. I really wasted my time. I promised my self months ago not to enter into any VARIG bull* again and I betrayed myself.

Sorry.
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:25 pm

I wonder if G3 will operate interlines for those RG's international services.
 
wfm
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:14 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:16 pm

The competition is big between Europe and Brazil. When I make a search for tickets from CPH to somewhere in Brazil I usually get TAM as the cheapest. Especialy to the northern part of Brazil. Also if I am looking for tickets from Brazil to CPH, TAM is cheapest and with the best connections either in CDG or FRA.

If Varig is going to take passengers from other airlines they have to get some better fares and equipment.

And Varig should be more visible in the various search engines for airline tickets, like Airtiki.com or Momondo.com which many people uses here in Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland.

It would be great to TAM here in CPH, now that Varig is long gone from Scandinavia. There is a market for flights from Scandinavian to Brazil, especially Sao Paulo and Rio, but also Salvador. Companies like Maersk, Novo Nordisk, Scania, Volvo and Ericsson are well established in Brazil, so I would think that flights to Brazil from Scandinavia could work, maybe with a stop somewhere.

And here in the end; Only time can tell how Varig will do......
That's all.....

- Michael
EIDW-EKCH
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1406
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:27 pm

That's if the flight operates. The Varig flight into LHR has been very hit and miss of late.
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:50 pm



Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 28):
Sorry but your thoughts are wrong. First I don´t think they are a threat to JJ nor to anybody else.

To me there is no difference between the old and the new one unless a judge in the middle.

I agree with you 100%. I really wasted my time. I promised my self months ago not to enter into any VARIG bull* again and I betrayed myself.

Sorry.

Very well said!!!

Some members think that with RG relaunching all of those flights just over 4-6 months, they are going to rule the skies and become the greatest airline it once was. Fortunately, not everyone has this poor idea!!! It takes more than a bunch of aircrafts and routes to make a strong airline. Why is so hard to be realistic????

Anyways, I'm not gonna keep this RG x TAM fight that so many love........ Enough is enough.........Let's move on, shall we???
 
C010T3
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RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:22 pm

Some people cannot live with criticism. I don't know why Incitatus' comments led to these harsh posts with indirect but personal messages.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:48 pm



Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 25):
This fantastic company is using fantastic B763s and they have plenty of them to operate to all destinations they want. Their loads are also fantastic. Also fantastic is their advantage over all competitors and more fantastic is their ability to waste money like already said above.

Isn't it great to have such thoughtful comments from an unbiased source?  Wink

Now if you cared to comment on the difficulty at TAM about running a mish-mash of fleet types that would be enlightning to all of us.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 32):
Some members think that with RG relaunching all of those flights just over 4-6 months, they are going to rule the skies and become the greatest airline it once was.

I never said that. I said Varig is looking for a position of strength in the presence of a competitor who has several problems, and whose acquired leadership is merely accidental.
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LipeGIG
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:04 am



Quoting SAOAP (Reply 16):

Well, a single flight to GIG (a place where MAD is serviced just 11 weekly) makes more sense to me than add 2 new flights to a destination already serviced 24x weekly. One flight to each market works better. May be Varig will capture good loads (not yields) on both overnight legs, but very poor on daylights.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
So are you saying that Varig might be offering as many as four daily flights to MIA? Wow.

It's their desire. Lets see how the European will perform in near future. Now it's just terrible !

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 25):
This fantastic company is using fantastic B763s and they have plenty of them to operate to all destinations they want. Their loads are also fantastic. Also fantastic is their advantage over all competitors and more fantastic is their ability to waste money like already said above.

Agree

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 25):
They are weak, with poor fleet, still internal conflicts, making G3 loose more money than expected.

Agree again.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
glennpower
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:41 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:24 am

LipeGIG/JJMNGR,


What can i say,you two have always made constructive comments that as a frequent flyer to Brasil over the last 17 years,i almost totally agree with your opinions,i once was a huge fan/admirer?passenger of RG,but recent events have not instilled any new confidence,okay i totally understand that they are resuming as quick as possible old slots,so as they will not lose them,but let me just say this with JJ as there main Brasilian competitor they have absolutely no chance in the near future to make any headway( and thats without all the other carriers ,old 767/200s/300s is certainly not going to help them,plus very few and/connections here in Brasil will also be a handicap for them,not to mention most of the sites thst i use,RG do not compare to favourably in price,and thats just in Y class,the prices quoted for C class also are very expensive if you take into account cost/benefit,old style seats,and lets not forget that most J class passengers are not in anyway like Y class passengers,they are generally seasoned travellers who know the difference between what is available with other carriers,so will make an informed decision accordingly,
how long will G3 bank RG,i have know idea,they have a lot of disposable cash,but also they have shareholders,so i think it will be not to long before they open there eyes,that in fact they have made a bad decision,(obviously i could be totally wrong,as i am just a humble person/passenger,with no real knowledge of business),but i will add that they will not see any new metal until at least 2012 if not later as all slots are long gone:re 787/350.(so as to offer something to be competetive,re state of the art seats/ife/etc).

Just my 2 Penny's worth.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:20 am

The fact that people ignore the fact that the 767's interiors will be retrofitted just amazes me. I'm not defending their current situation, but the fact that people think that their plan won't result in good results in the end, when interline agreements are all resumed, G3 and RG become complimentary networks and the planes are retrofitted is really beyond me.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2396
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:22 am



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):
I don't think there are any problems with JFK, since either JFK and EWR are run by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

Despite the fact posted out previously, those flights to New York City area may involve JFK instead EWR due merely to marketing reasons, based on the recent interline agreement established between DL and VARIG, taking into account that JFK is a base for Delta Air Lines that allows traffic to their stations.



.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):
they could use the aircraft for non-stop GRU-FCO.

VARIG would need to utilize better their partnership deals later.
The usage of dedicated flights to FCO in the future makes sense in order to enable easy connections through Air One network.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:25 am



Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 25):
Sorry to some of you but some things really makes me laugh......

This fantastic company is using fantastic B763s and they have plenty of them to operate to all destinations they want. Their loads are also fantastic. Also fantastic is their advantage over all competitors and more fantastic is their ability to waste money like already said above.

And please, I beg to some of your here, interested in make a personal attack to me, thinking this is another thread between JJ and G3, please don´t waste time. This has nothing to do with this, but an opinion.

They are weak, with poor fleet, still internal conflicts, making G3 loose more money than expected.

During the peak of their crisis, I was very critisized for some post I did because some never believed their fate. Time told and time will tell again.

How can you comfortably mock VARIG’s fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan?

How dare you jeer VARIG ability to return as a strong competitor whereas TAM has quite a long way to go to learn with VARIG about costumer service quality?

How can you point out VARIG-GOL huge investments in VARIG whereas TAM is having quite of extra expenses to maintain a varied fleet as unproportionate as it may be?

How could you explain to us why TAM is increasing their cost of maintenance by operating short legs as GIG-GRU?
Oh, this is nothing? Remember that when VARIG used to operate widebodies in such short legs you blamed it as a very poor use of aircraft that increased engine cycles drastically, now that it’s TAM it is ok.

VARIG is expected to run a fleet of retrofitted widebodies as large as TAM’s by next year, with connectivity in domestic using GOL’s network. Let’s then make some comparison when both airlines are in similar situation.

By the way, TAM is going to fly to Frankfurt approximately 7 months without code-share with Lufthansa. Maybe an interline agreement, but no code-share at all. Let’s look it closely how it works.

Maybe you are going to repeat your thesis about “mankind opinion rights” for the thousandth time over years to entitle legitimacy to your biased criticism about your employer’s rival, but think and rethink before criticising something not proportionally.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:35 am



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 39):
How can you comfortably mock VARIG’s fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan?

How dare you jeer VARIG ability to return as a strong competitor whereas TAM has quite a long way to go to learn with VARIG about costumer service quality?

How can you point out VARIG-GOL huge investments in VARIG whereas TAM is having quite of extra expenses to maintain a varied fleet as unproportionate as it may be?

How could you explain to us why TAM is increasing their cost of maintenance by operating short legs as GIG-GRU?
Oh, this is nothing? Remember that when VARIG used to operate widebodies in such short legs you blamed it as a very poor use of aircraft that increased engine cycles drastically, now that it’s TAM it is ok.

VARIG is expected to run a fleet of retrofitted widebodies as large as TAM’s by next year, with connectivity in domestic using GOL’s network. Let’s then make some comparison when both airlines are in similar situation.

By the way, TAM is going to fly to Frankfurt approximately 7 months without code-share with Lufthansa. Maybe an interline agreement, but no code-share at all. Let’s look it closely how it works.

Maybe you are going to repeat your thesis about “mankind opinion rights” for the thousandth time over years to entitle legitimacy to your biased criticism about your employer’s rival, but think and rethink before criticising something not proportionally.

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Copacabana
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 10:56 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:32 pm



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 39):
How can you comfortably mock VARIG’s fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan?

As of 2008 TAM will be flying brand new 777-300ER, while Varig will still operate a bunch of old 767s.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 39):
How dare you jeer VARIG ability to return as a strong competitor whereas TAM has quite a long way to go to learn with VARIG about costumer service quality?

I f you mean the quality of service offered by RG lately then there is no comparison. BTW, RG still has a very bad reputation over the 2005 crisis, which pretty much set the standard of RG service to terrible!!!!

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 39):
How can you point out VARIG-GOL huge investments in VARIG whereas TAM is having quite of extra expenses to maintain a varied fleet as unproportionate as it may be?

The expenses that JJ is having with their fleet types, doesn't come close to what GOL is loosing with RG just to be able grab a handful of 767s, having to retrofit their entire wide body fleet to even compete, opening several new stations abroad, securing their beloved European slots, new image & marketing campaigns and so on. All that with poor loads, on most of their new international destinations. How dare can you even compare JJ's situation with RG??? I'd say you gotta be pretty optimistic, to say the least!!!!!!! Smile Smile

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 39):
VARIG is expected to run a fleet of retrofitted widebodies as large as TAM’s by next year, with connectivity in domestic using GOL’s network. Let’s then make some comparison when both airlines are in similar situation.

Am I supposed to laugh??? You really think RG is gonna be in the same position of JJ next year? No comments...
 
glennpower
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:41 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoteing Brasuca,,,, How can you comfortably mock VARIG’s fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan?

Ex Rg MD11s,quite ironic really,but as is widely known only a stop gap measure until those 773s arrive next year,then its conversion to freighters and off to Fedex,JJ had no choice as there are simply no slots for anything new for sometime,as RG has also found out,hence old 767s.



How could you explain to us why TAM is increasing their cost of maintenance by operating short legs as GIG-GRU?
Oh, this is nothing? Remember that when VARIG used to operate widebodies in such short legs you blamed it as a very poor use of aircraft that increased engine cycles drastically, now that it’s TAM it is ok.

Okay,i do remember JJMNGR saying this too,but proberbly they have good loads to fill these birds,but as you rightly point out its an expensive cost on cycle useage.

Well i hope that when RG refits its interiors on these 767s,that it is a job well done,i can imagine J class being very up to date,but in Y not so sure,and as i mostly travel in Y class,this is of more importance to me,will these seats have AVOD IFE,i doubt it,as the cost on all those 767s is going to be HUGE,hope i am wrong though.

Let me say,i am in general a big JJ fan,(although,believe me they have there faults as well),but until a couple of years ago i was also a huge RG fan (for more than 14 years),i have taken about 7 or 8 rtn trips each year from LHR/JFK/MIA to SSA over the last 17 years,so i think i have the right to easily compare RG/JJ,plus i take a lot of other flights each year with my work,have flown with more than 60 airlines over the years.

Anyway i am not bashing RG,just making statements regarding there present situation,and i hope that they can make a strong comeback,and you know why ?????,because its good for the flying public,''' MORE COMPETITION'''',which means better service with lower fares,so the consumer is the winner.

I will keep reading trip reports on www.airlinequality.com ,and when there is a marked improvement with RG i will be only to happy to give them a try.

By the way i have just bought 2 rtn SSA to LHR via LIS with TP over DEC/JAN,(first time i have flown with them in about 14 years,after i said never again),but everyone deserves a second chance,so lets wait and see.(will collect my JJ fidelidade points though,so no problem),

Good luck JJ as well as the same to RG.
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:41 pm

Copacabana,

If we lean against something with passion or fundamentalist thoughts, we will hold nothing else than a biased view thereupon.
That's what I don't agree with, i.e. undermine a set of decent and the best qualified employers in the market without any sound argument other than passion.

I see you object some points, let's take them...
1 - Flying newer aircraft doesn't necessarily entail gains upon its competitor, as long as competition offers a suitable product in its cabin. If you take CO, AA, TP, BA, BA, KL, UA, AC (etc) you'll realise all of them have put off the retirement of their older aircraft in favour of an updated product in their cabin.
Don't be shocked to find out that VARIG's upcoming aircraft (current PR-VAA, PR-VBB inclusively) have better internal comfort than TAM's MD11 (PT-MSH, MSI, MSJ).

2 - As long as reputation and prestige are concerned, TAM itself acknowledges their service is spoiled, how can someone deny it?
Moreover, undeniable figures: they have one of the worst safety records in the world (despite their newish aircraft), faulty costumer service and their recklessness in last year's Brazilian christmas crisis begotten by TAM should've been taken into account.

3 - Expenses can be disguised as "investment". TAM's management lack of advance planning brought them about to work with expensive contingent plans.
If VARIG were as costly as some deduce, one can infer that TAM's last quarterly results indicate they are having a worse management cost than GOL's, because GOL justify their losses by investing in VARIG, but what are TAM's reasons herein to account their losses?
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:38 pm



Quoting Glennpower (Reply 36):
and thats without all the other carriers ,old 767/200s/300s is certainly not going to help them

FACT: Most passengers have no clue what kind of aircraft they are flying on.

Quoting Glennpower (Reply 36):
lets not forget that most J class passengers are not in anyway like Y class passengers,they are generally seasoned travellers who know the difference between what is available with other carriers,so will make an informed decision accordingly,

FACT: Most J class passengers are traveling for business and have limited choice of airline due to corporate discounts, availability of nonstop service at convenient times or corporate travel rules (e.g., if airline XX fare is $5995 and airline YY fare is $5990, one must fly YY).

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 43):
but what are TAM's reasons herein to account their losses?

10% of their traffic evaporated after the Congonhas accident.
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LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:13 pm



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 38):
Despite the fact posted out previously, those flights to New York City area may involve JFK instead EWR due merely to marketing reasons, based on the recent interline agreement established between DL and VARIG, taking into account that JFK is a base for Delta Air Lines that allows traffic to their stations.

SJOtoLIR, the reason i heard is that JFK is now under FAA discussions to cut flights during the peak times. Slots are not available and as the flight will be to São Paulo, already well served from JFK, the slot request was denied. So they begin discussions with EWR.

And about RG/DL agreement, it's just an interline, not a code-share, and JFK is not a huge DL base, plus DL has it's own service GRU-JFK and also both T2 and T3 are now really overcrowded on rush hours.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 39):
How can you comfortably mock VARIG's fleet whereas TAM is flying old MD11s from the old VARIG to top markets Paris and Milan?

You're right about this, but i consider only Milan as a problem, as they fly 3x daily to CDG, 2 of them with their A332. I use to be one of the top complainers about the "mix" on their A332 fleet. Some "top" (5 of them) and others behind a good level.
Also, be in mind M11 are from... RG and as you know, are on the same standards (49C for example).
I'm not here defending JJ, i'm just saying that RG focused on "hold the slots", and this is the price to pay: worst planes. If they focus on product and not on rush flying into all destinations, may be they got sometime to obtain better planes or even to prepare their fleet better.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 43):
Don't be shocked to find out that VARIG's upcoming aircraft (current PR-VAA, PR-VBB inclusively) have better internal comfort than TAM's MD11 (PT-MSH, MSI, MSJ).

Again M11's are from RG, and as explained, a matter of time to be replaced by brand new and updated 77W frames.
Please be in mind: 220 pax into a 763 is far from being comfortable. AA and DL for example uses less than this and none could receive a "better comfort than RG" status.

Quoting Glennpower (Reply 42):
Well i hope that when RG refits its interiors on these 767s,that it is a job well done,i can imagine J class being very up to date,but in Y not so sure,and as i mostly travel in Y class,this is of more importance to me,will these seats have AVOD IFE,i doubt it,as the cost on all those 767s is going to be HUGE,hope i am wrong though.

You're right, C will be fine, Y will not receive any PTV.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:38 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 44):
Quoting Brasuca (Reply 43):
but what are TAM's reasons herein to account their losses?

10% of their traffic evaporated after the Congonhas accident.

IIRC, the aforementioned losses of TAM and GOL are referred to before TAM's fatal accident, thus before their flights cutback in CGH.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:42 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 45):
i'm just saying that RG focused on "hold the slots", and this is the price to pay: worst planes. If they focus on product and not on rush flying into all destinations, may be they got sometime to obtain better planes or even to prepare their fleet better.

But is it not the correct business logic? Holding rights (not slots) should be first priority. Without the rights, there is no Varig service, good or bad. If Varig is not quick, then eventually TAM will have the market covered.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 45):
220 pax into a 763 is far from being comfortable. AA and DL for example uses less than this and none could receive a "better comfort than RG" status.

The AA configuration is J30Y195, 225 seats, the DL configuration is J36Y178, 214 seats. Though both are far from being comfortable indeed - comfortable is 80 in pitch!
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LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 47):
But is it not the correct business logic? Holding rights (not slots) should be first priority. Without the rights, there is no Varig service, good or bad. If Varig is not quick, then eventually TAM will have the market covered.

If you're looking for business customers, i don't think so. And the strategy seems to be wrong because ANAC managed to increase bilaterals with France, Italy, Germany and Spain in order to allow JJ and others to fly. There's no destinations at this time in Europe where RG now is the sole Brazilian player (i can't consider FCO because of the one stop flight), so the strategy of hold slots (because they hold the airport slots also) shows innefective.
They could just apply now for the same right given to JJ (i.e. increasing the bilateral to accomodate more flights) with better product to offer to business market.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 47):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 45):
220 pax into a 763 is far from being comfortable. AA and DL for example uses less than this and none could receive a "better comfort than RG" status.

The AA configuration is J30Y195, 225 seats, the DL configuration is J36Y178, 214 seats. Though both are far from being comfortable indeed - comfortable is 80 in pitch!

Varig is even worst IIRC, believe me!
Old RG 767 has 240 seats. Don't know exactly the VAA.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Varig: MAD Is Back!

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 48):
If you're looking for business customers, i don't think so. And the strategy seems to be wrong because ANAC managed to increase bilaterals with France, Italy, Germany and Spain in order to allow JJ and others to fly. There's no destinations at this time in Europe where RG now is the sole Brazilian player (i can't consider FCO because of the one stop flight), so the strategy of hold slots (because they hold the airport slots also) shows innefective.
They could just apply now for the same right given to JJ (i.e. increasing the bilateral to accomodate more flights) with better product to offer to business market.

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This is what I've been saying for quite sometime...... FRA is the best example!!

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 43):
Don't be shocked to find out that VARIG's upcoming aircraft (current PR-VAA, PR-VBB inclusively) have better internal comfort than TAM's MD11 (PT-MSH, MSI, MSJ).

I don't understand why are you using this as an comparison. RG will have in its fleet around 12 767 or more, while JJ is using only 3 old RG MD-11 temporarily untill the new Boeings arrive. It's completely un-proportional measure, since RG has more than triple of the "same" category aircraft. No matter where you fly RG, you get the 767, whether with JJ unless you're going to CDG or MXP, you get better aircraft.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 43):
If VARIG were as costly as some deduce, one can infer that TAM's last quarterly results indicate they are having a worse management cost than GOL's, because GOL justify their losses by investing in VARIG, but what are TAM's reasons herein to account their losses?

Most of JJ losses come from the downfall in the domestic market due to its crisis, initiated by GOL's crash in Sep 2006, and severely aggravated by JJ accident in CGH this year. Thus for JJ is putting most of its efforts in the International market, where they are having much better returns and still hold good performance numbers, despite all that's happened. I know this was not the only factor, but contributed a lot for the decrease in JJ profits.