seatback
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AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:24 am

I was surprised to see that AA mainline has topped United mainline service (in terms of pax carried) at LAX for the 12 month period ending in August. AA had 19.86 while UA had 19.52.

I always thought UA (w/out Express) was bigger.
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:39 am

While United has consistently beaten AA in mainline boardings the numbers have been quite close last several years. For instance in both in 2005 and 2006 the difference was only a little over 100,000.

Similarly this year thru September the difference between AA and UA mainline is mere 60,000 boardings. With 3 more months of statistics to go its probably too hard to call it either way quite yet.

Add in express operations however, and United soundly exceeds AA's boardings.

[Edited 2007-11-19 18:42:01]
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commavia
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:49 am

Well, we'll see if that trend continues.

But wow, I must say - I never thought I'd live to see the day when AA mainline would be moving more people through LAX than United.

It's also important to note, of course, that even with this, United + United Express is still far larger than AA + Eagle.
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:56 am

And to put things in perspective with about 10mil annual mainline boardings each, the 100,000 difference is merely a 1% swing either way. So its been very close these last couple years for the two.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
commavia
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:00 am



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
And to put things in perspective with about 10mil annual mainline boardings each, the 100,000 difference is merely a 1% swing either way. So its been very close these last couple years for the two.

Indeed. The difference is basically a rounding error, and has been for the last few years, although I remember back in the late 1990s and early 2000s when AA was #4 at LAX behind United, Southwest and Delta. Now they're #2.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:13 am

Im not surprised at all. UA has been switching service to RJ's for alot of flights that used to be mainline (ex. DFW and PDX). AA has flown the same amount of mainline consistantly here for a while now. UA fluxes more.
It is what it is...
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:17 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
I remember back in the late 1990s and early 2000s when AA was #4 at LAX behind United, Southwest and Delta. Now they're #2.

 checkmark  Indeed.

We all know what happened to DL (whom today is a distant #4), while SWA has been land locked and stuck at about 110-115 departures forever at LAX. United also shrunk a bit after 9/11, while AA has seen growth over the year (particularly after the Term-4 renovation) to jockey for the top mainline spot. However with AA somewhat shrinking as a corporation, they might have plateaued this year in LA.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
laca773
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:06 am

Do you think this might have to do with AA offering many more seats on the JFK flights than UA offers?

LACA773
 
commavia
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:43 am



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 7):
Do you think this might have to do with AA offering many more seats on the JFK flights than UA offers?

AA does offer substantial more capacity on LAX-JFK than United, but as we all know, the LAX market - for both AA and UA - is much larger than just JFK.

I think this has more to do with the relative steadiness of AA at LAX in the post-9/11 period, versus the continual decline of UA during the same timeframe. Since 9/11, AA has stayed relatively stagnant - not much growth - at LAX, while UA has cut nonstop service altogether to several markets they served pre-9/11 (ATL, IAH, MEL and AKL come to mind).

In the last few years, AA has subtracted some, including the second dailies to KOA, LIH and YYZ, along with reducing frequency/capacity in some markets like EWR and IAD. AA has also added some minimal mainline service back, including the second SJD flight, some more capacity to MIA, SAL and the seasonal SJO, both of which launched - IIRC - around 2003-2004.

In addition to that, I think what this really reflects more than anything else is the continually eroding level of UA mainline service in lots of markets that used to be dominated by it: I'm thinking of cities like OAK, SJC, SMF, PHX, TUS, etc. Pre-9/11, and right after the attacks, UA has all or mostly mainline to all these cities, whereas now many have been transitioned more or less to Express RJs. And, given that we're talking about these very high-density, high-frequency markets, the move from 125-seat 737s to 50-seat RJs has done an enormous amount to reduce UA's mainline boarding totals over the last few years.
 
laca773
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:18 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 8):

AA does offer substantial more capacity on LAX-JFK than United, but as we all know, the LAX market - for both AA and UA - is much larger than just JFK.

I think this has more to do with the relative steadiness of AA at LAX in the post-9/11 period, versus the continual decline of UA during the same timeframe. Since 9/11, AA has stayed relatively stagnant - not much growth - at LAX, while UA has cut nonstop service altogether to several markets they served pre-9/11 (ATL, IAH, MEL and AKL come to mind).

In the last few years, AA has subtracted some, including the second dailies to KOA, LIH and YYZ, along with reducing frequency/capacity in some markets like EWR and IAD. AA has also added some minimal mainline service back, including the second SJD flight, some more capacity to MIA, SAL and the seasonal SJO, both of which launched - IIRC - around 2003-2004.

In addition to that, I think what this really reflects more than anything else is the continually eroding level of UA mainline service in lots of markets that used to be dominated by it: I'm thinking of cities like OAK, SJC, SMF, PHX, TUS, etc. Pre-9/11, and right after the attacks, UA has all or mostly mainline to all these cities, whereas now many have been transitioned more or less to Express RJs. And, given that we're talking about these very high-density, high-frequency markets, the move from 125-seat 737s to 50-seat RJs has done an enormous amount to reduce UA's mainline boarding totals over the last few years.

You make some very good points, Commavia. It makes complete sense. Especially with all the discontinuation of all the mainline service to the cities you mentioned and transfering them over to UAX makes a remarkable difference.

I do see UA adding quite a few more seats with their new nonstops to HKG, & FRA.

Best
LACA773
 
commavia
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:24 am



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 9):
I do see UA adding quite a few more seats with their new nonstops to HKG, & FRA.

Indeed. HKG and FRA are going to add big time to those numbers, which is why I don't realistically see this rounding error of a difference lasting too long before shifting back in UA's favor.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:40 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
SWA has been land locked and stuck at about 110-115 departures forever at LAX. United also shrunk a bit after 9/11, while AA has seen growth over the year (particularly after the Term-4 renovation) to jockey for the top mainline spot. However with AA somewhat shrinking as a corporation, they might have plateaued this year in LA.

AA is also pretty much maxed out at T 4. Unless AA is able to get additional gates at T-5 (unlikely) or upgrades the equipment on some flights from MD-80s to 757s / 767s (equally unlikely), we're unlikely to see AA get any bigger at LAX any time soon.
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Cubsrule
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:27 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):

Indeed. HKG and FRA are going to add big time to those numbers, which is why I don't realistically see this rounding error of a difference lasting too long before shifting back in UA's favor.

...and I imagine that, even now, UA still has significantly more mainline ASMs than does AA.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
kanebear
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:36 pm

There's also the issue of UA having a decent-sized hub up at SFO... where AA has minimal presence. UA has gigantic presence in the west compared to AA.
 
HUbsnotDubs
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:42 pm

I know that the UA express operation is large at LAX but how large?
 
PanAm747
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:43 pm

An interesting caveat to all of this is that LAX is the largest O&D airport in the U.S., and possibly the world. This means the vast majority of seats offered are for people beginning or ending their trips at LAX.

I am impressed that both airlines offer so many mainline flights from LAX, but I think in terms of customer service, it would be more interesting to see where these mainline destinations are. For example, I'm quite certain that AA offers many daily MD80, 757, 767, and maybe an occasional 777 flight to JFK, DFW, ORD, BOS, and MIA, as well as a few others (someone help me out here). The shell of American Eagle adds a few Saabs and EMB RJ's to a few California locations, but I would imagine that UA's destination list - when one includes Express destinations - would easily outnumber AA's choices.

Quote:
There's also the issue of UA having a decent-sized hub up at SFO... where AA has minimal presence. UA has gigantic presence in the west compared to AA.

VERY true!! In the west, there's United, Southwest, and Alaska/Horizon. Intra-Pacific Time Zone flying is almost totally dominated by those three.
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AADC10
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:38 pm

UA's shrinkage at LAX was part of a deliberate post 9/11 strategy to shift flights to maintain the fortress hub at SFO. LAX is an impossible hub to defend and AA took the opposite approach and shrank SJC and RNO but maintained LAX. If WN had the gate space they would probably swamp UA and AA however.

Actually, UA never fully implemented its alleged LAX hub. At one time, LAX expansion plans included an additional runway and more gates but the new runway was dropped and all current terminal plans result in a reduction of gates. UA had planned to expand to use the new capacity but backed off when it became clear that it was not going to happen.
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:01 pm

Here is a profile of each airlines ops at LAX inclusive of express operations as of the 12 months ended Sept. 2006.

One interesting thing to note, is that AA uses LAX very much as an O&D station, while UA with its much larger express network and also international flying sees a much higher percentage of transfer traffic at LAX compared to AA.


American
Total boardings: 9,528,688
Avg Daily Dep - 84 (mainline)
Avg Daily Dep - 57(express)
% traffic O&D - 80.6%

Top markets(avg daily one-way pax)
DFW - 2179
JFK - 1548
ORD - 1393
MIA - 967
SFO - 660
HNL - 590
BOS - 501
STL - 469
SAN - 447
IAD - 356

United
Total boardings: 12,712,840
Avg Daily Dep - 96 (mainline)
Avg Daily Dep - 136 (express)
% traffic O&D - 65.8%

Top markets (avg daily one-way pax)
ORD - 1817
SFO - 1626
DEN - 1385
IAD - 1126
HNL - 796
LAS - 791
JFK - 622
OGG - 507
SEA - 456
SAN - 432


Lastly, if one looks at the "big picture" at LA's satellite airports, United presence and market share compared to AA increases even further.

source: LAWA & Aviation Daily stats.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:04 pm



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 15):
For example, I'm quite certain that AA offers many daily MD80, 757, 767, and maybe an occasional 777 flight to JFK, DFW, ORD, BOS, and MIA, as well as a few others (someone help me out here).

In terms of mainline service they offer an almost identical number of destinations - 25 on AA and 26 on UA. AA provides more trans-con capacity, especially with heavy lift to South Florida (nine daily flights, including a 777) and New York (15 daily flights, 12 on widebodies).

AA - Austin, Boston, Chicago/O'Hare, Dallas, Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Honolulu, Kona, Las Vegas, Lihue, London/Heathrow, Maui, Miami, Nashville, New York/JFK, Newark, Orlando, San Antonio, San Francisco, San José (Costa Rica), San Jose del Cabo, St. Louis, Tokyo, Toronto, Washington/Dulles

UA - Baltimore, Boston, Cancun, Chicago/O'Hare, Denver, Frankfurt, Guatemala City, Hong Kong, Honolulu, Kona, Lihue, London/Heathrow, Maui, Mexico City, New Orleans, New York/JFK, Newark, Orlando, Philadelphia, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Salvador, Seattle, Sydney, Tokyo, Washington/Dulles
a.
 
PanAm747
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:18 pm



Quote:
In terms of mainline service they offer an almost identical number of destinations - 25 on AA and 26 on UA. AA provides more trans-con capacity, especially with heavy lift to South Florida (nine daily flights, including a 777) and New York (15 daily flights, 12 on widebodies).

Thank you!! I did not know about some of AA's destinations from LAX. I stand corrected.

Including Express/Eagle destinations, I'd love to see statistics as to how many TOTAL destinations are served, including numbers of seats and destinations. Would UA win that battle?
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elmothehobo
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:19 pm



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 19):
Would UA win that battle?

Hands downs.

Eagle currently serves seven cities (Las Vegas, San Diego, Fresno, Monterey, San Luis Obispo, San Jose CA, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara), and will go up to eight in January when they launch their new Santa Fe weekend service.

United serves at least double, if not triple that number from Los Angeles.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):

26 flights on American if you include the seasonal Vail/Eagle flight. I was under the impression that American also serves San Salvador, turns out they don't. Since when has that been? In August they still had the signs up for San Salvador check in.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:25 pm



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 20):
26 flights on American if you include the seasonal Vail/Eagle flight. I was under the impression that American also serves San Salvador, turns out they don't. Since when has that been? In August they still had the signs up for San Salvador check in.

They do, daily. I left it out. That makes 27, more than UA.
a.
 
aa1818
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:32 pm

What about Int'l lift. Besides LHR, where else does AA serve.
I know US beats AA hands down on international lift, but how do they compare out of LAX??
Cheers
AA1818
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mm320cap
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:34 pm

You forgot PDX for UA.... And you should really count TED service to LAS as well

[Edited 2007-11-20 15:39:00]
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:44 pm



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 22):
What about Int'l lift. Besides LHR, where else does AA serve.

London, Tokyo, San Jose, San Salvador, and San Jose del Cabo.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 22):

I know US beats AA hands down on international lift, but how do they compare out of LAX??

By US do you mean UA? Overall, they don't. AA carriers more international passengers than any U.S. airline, hands down.

Quoting Mm320cap (Reply 23):
You forgot PDX for UA....

I did, but it's ending in a few weeks.
a.
 
aa1818
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:51 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 24):
By US do you mean UA? Overall, they don't. AA carriers more international passengers than any U.S. airline, hands down.

Yea- typo...should have been UA!!
Sorry!

I always assumed that UA was bigger Internationally! hmmm- learn something new everyday!!

Cheers
AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
commavia
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:24 am



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 15):
An interesting caveat to all of this is that LAX is the largest O&D airport in the U.S., and possibly the world. This means the vast majority of seats offered are for people beginning or ending their trips at LAX.

And this is an important point to remember. Much like at JFK and in New York where - similarly - several major airlines (both legacy and low-cost) are battling it out for market share, the AA vs UA at LAX situation is also very much a question of O&D vs connections. AA's operations at LAX are far more O&D focused, and far more centered around carrying local LAX customers, and are augmented only minimally (relatively) by some connections from Eagle and among mainline flights, and codeshare connections (AA probably connects more people to and from codeshare flights than to and from other AA/Eagle flights at LAX). The same is true of ORD - where United operates much more of a "hub" in the traditional massive connection sense, whereas AA's market there is far more O&D based with only some connections augmenting the local flying.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:08 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
and are augmented only minimally (relatively) by some connections from Eagle and among mainline flights, and codeshare connections (AA probably connects more people to and from codeshare flights than to and from other AA/Eagle flights at LAX)

Absolutely. American connects a huge number of transcon passengers onto Qantas flights alone. The Eagle flights also carry a dozen (probably more) codes, a lo of them being non-oneworld carriers (AS, CO, DL, NW, HA off the top of my head).
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:19 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 27):
Absolutely. American connects a huge number of transcon passengers onto Qantas flights alone.

True. Also a fair deal of LAX-SFO/LAS/Hawaii connections for OW

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 27):
The Eagle flights also carry a dozen (probably more) codes, a lo of them being non-oneworld carriers (AS, CO, DL, NW, HA off the top of my head).

However total AE annual boardings were only about about 500,000 annually while UAX boards 2m+.

So in other words even with all the codes, AA still has a much lower connectivity totals at LAX then UA which is shown by the O&D boarding percentage even if AE flights were to feed connections exclusively as poster have implied.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
eghansen
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:40 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 20):
Eagle currently serves seven cities (Las Vegas, San Diego, Fresno, Monterey, San Luis Obispo, San Jose CA, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara), and will go up to eight in January when they launch their new Santa Fe weekend service.

United serves at least double, if not triple that number from Los Angeles.

And American Eagle's service from LAX is terrible. You have to ride a bus from Terminal 5 to a dinky midfield terminal near the AA hanger. There is nothing there but bathrooms and one food service cart.

United at least has its Express gates in Terminal 8 where you are not so isolated.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
elmothehobo
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:35 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 29):
And American Eagle's service from LAX is terrible. You have to ride a bus from Terminal 5 to a dinky midfield terminal near the AA hanger. There is nothing there but bathrooms and one food service cart.

That may/will change with the new midfield concourse they're going to build where the commuter terminals stands. Sure it isn't the most convenient thing even, but its plenty better than getting bused out to a remote stand.

Having the computer terminal is also better for gate utilisation - you can shuttle more passengers through the big boy gates and not have to waste them on RJs and Turboprpops.
 
RyDawg82
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:49 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 24):
By US do you mean UA? Overall, they don't. AA carriers more international passengers than any U.S. airline, hands down.

Gotta correct this statement as it pertains to LAX as I understand from press releases and date found on LAWA's website itself...

Alaska Airlines (AS) serves more international passengers than any other airline *at* LAX. Shocking I know, but its something that has held true for a few years. While Alaska is LAX's 5th largest carrier, it is the top international carrier (Mexico/Canada).

Jan-Sep 2007:
1. Alaska 972,342 pax (compared to 1,288,942 domestic passengers)
2. Qantas 852,192 pax
3. United 674,699 pax
4. American 479,509 pax

Source: http://lawa.org/lax/statistics/pdf/aircarrier-2007.pdf

Looking at 2006:
1. Alaska 1,280,511 pax
2. Mexicana 1,255,902 pax
3. United 1,042,037 pax
4. American 613,492 pax

Source: http://lawa.org/lax/statistics/pdf/aircarrier-2006.pdf

Ryan
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 31):
Gotta correct this statement as it pertains to LAX as I understand from press releases and date found on LAWA's website itself...

I think he was speaking about the entire market overall, where AA is definitely - by far - the largest U.S. international carrier in terms of passengers carried. At LAX, though, yeah, Alaska is massive, and AA and United are also huge.
 
eghansen
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:19 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 30):
That may/will change with the new midfield concourse they're going to build where the commuter terminals stands. Sure it isn't the most convenient thing even, but its plenty better than getting bused out to a remote stand.

Sorry, brother, but the new midfield terminal at LAX ain't never gonna happen. Welcome to aviation in California.

The City of Los Angeles settled a lawsuit brought by nearby residents.

Among key provisions of the settlement, LA World Airports will:

-- Discontinue passenger operations at ten narrow-body gates at the rate of two gates per year starting in 2010. This requirement will be in effect until 2020 unless LAX is serving less than 75 million annual passengers or if, through amendments to the Master Plan, LAX has 153 gates or less.

-- Invite the Federal Aviation Administration, the Southern California Association of Governments, Southern California counties and airport operators to participate in a working group to plan for regional distribution of air traffic demand.

-- Develop a regional strategic planning initiative to encourage passenger and cargo activity at LAWA's other airports.

LAWA's other airports are Ontario and Palmdale.

You can read more at www.laxmasterplan.org
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:32 am



Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 31):

Gotta correct this statement as it pertains to LAX as I understand from press releases and date found on LAWA's website itself...

Alaska Airlines (AS) serves more international passengers than any other airline *at* LAX. Shocking I know, but its something that has held true for a few years. While Alaska is LAX's 5th largest carrier, it is the top international carrier (Mexico/Canada).

AA carries more international passengers than any other U.S. airline. That statement didn't pertain to just LAX. Though it is indeed surprising that AS carriers the most international passengers. That might change with UA's new SYD and FRA flights, though.
a.
 
Flighty
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:29 am

Can we see a rundown of AA's mainline operation at LAX?

What are their 757 cities? 737 or MD-80 cities? 767? 777, LHR only?

Thanks.
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:56 am



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 33):
Sorry, brother, but the new midfield terminal at LAX ain't never gonna happen.

Incorrect.

First phase of the midfield concourse was approved earlier this year and is planned to open January 2012.

Matter of fact on November 5th contractors were invited to bid on the project, with planned contract award by March 2008.
LAX-panel-asks-for-terminal-bids/1$15421" target=_blank>http://www.airportbusiness.com/web/o...nel-asks-for-terminal-bids/1$15421


The concourse was one of the green lighted project approved as part of the LAX Masterplan court settlement.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:19 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
777, LHR only?

Three daily 777 flights to LAX - one each to Heathrow, Miami, and Narita.
a.
 
eghansen
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RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:29 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
Incorrect.

First phase of the midfield concourse was approved earlier this year and is planned to open January 2012.

Matter of fact on November 5th contractors were invited to bid on the project, with planned contract award by March 2008.
LAX-panel-asks-for-terminal-bids/1$15421" target=_blank>http://www.airportbusiness.com/web/o...nel-asks-for-terminal-bids/1$15421


The concourse was one of the green lighted project approved as part of the LAX Masterplan court settlement.

I'll believe it when I see it. The contract is only to hire an architect. I worked for Landrum & Brown from 1989 to 1990 and did environmental studies for a terminal expansion back then that never happened. Since then, LAX has spent $150 million on design studies and plans that have resulted in not much beyond the southernmost runway being moved 55 feet south. To even get this project going, the airport had to claim that it did not actually expand the capacity of the airport, but was necessary only for safety reasons, as if the runway layout that the airport had been using with jets for the last 40 years was suddenly unsafe.

The problem with LAX is the the airport is owned by the City of Los Angeles. The LAWA is just a department in the City government and not an independent body like we have in San Diego or the Port Authority of New York. Any new terminal will have to be approved by the LA City Council over the objections of the council members from the areas surrounding the airport and that is where the process falls apart again and again and again.

The central problem is that the other airports in the area (LGB, BUR, SNA) all have capacity restrictions. SNA handles 8 million, BUR handles 4 million, and LGB handles maybe 2 million. Ontario is also owned by LAWA and handles about 6 million, although it could handle a lot more. As LAX handles 61 million the residents in the nearby area believe that they are already handling their fair share of greater LA traffic and want any increases moved somewhere else, such as Ontario.

It is possible since that this is a very scaled down terminal of only 8 to 10 gates, it might possibly be approved. I wouldn't be surprised if the Council requires that any gates added with the new midfield terminal be compensated by removing gates elsewhere, which the domestic airlines would oppose, and then the whole process starts going in circles again.

Or the City of El Segundo could file another lawsuit, which would be heard in LA County Superior Court which in the past has not been very sympathetic to Orange County using LAX as its primary air travel facility. I remember when residents of Orange County proudly declared they did not need a new airport at El Toro because they "didn't mind driving to LAX for their flights if it meant that the noise and pollution weren't in Orange County." The letters in the LA Times from LA county residents were downright vicious about what they thought of Orange County residents.

As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:08 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
Can we see a rundown of AA's mainline operation at LAX?

What are their 757 cities? 737 or MD-80 cities? 767? 777, LHR only?

A few-

IAD - 2x 738, 1x 757
BOS- 4x 757
EWR- 2x 757
BNA-1x 738
JFK- 12-13x 762
FLL- 2x 757
MCO- 1x 757
MIA- 2x 738, 3x 757, 2x 763, 1x 777
STL -5x M80, 1x 757
LAS- 1x M80 (3-4 RJs)
SFO - 7x M80
DEN- 3x M80
AUS- 3x M80
SAT- 1x M80
HNL- 2x 757, 2x 763
OGG- 1x 763, 1x 757
KOA- 1x 757
LIH- 1x 757
LHR- 1x 777 (2x 777 during summers, though this summer it won't run)
NRT- 1x 777
SAL- 1x 757
SJO- 1x 757
SJU- 1x 757

I'm sure I'm missing a few.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:26 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 39):
LHR- 1x 777 (2x 777 during summers, though this summer it won't run)

Not just this summer. That's a permanent cancellation.
a.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:04 pm



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
It is possible since that this is a very scaled down terminal of only 8 to 10 gates, it might possibly be approved.

Its not "might", it has been approved. Actually the near 25 gate facility is one one of the many green lighted projects as part of the 2005 LAX Masterplan settlement. Its simply being built in phases with the Northside wing commencing first.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
any gates added with the new midfield terminal be compensated by removing gates elsewhere

Correct. The 20 odd remote gates which will get closed as the midfield concourse comes to use in phases.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
Any new terminal will have to be approved by the LA City Council over the objections of the council members from the areas surrounding the airport and that is where the process falls apart again and again and again.

Not this time.

Both the LAX Masterplan settlement and this terminal construction which was voted on by the LA City Council in August received unanimous support from former area council member Ruth Galanter and current council member Bill Rosendahl, both of which are certainly not shy to speak up.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
To even get this project going, the airport had to claim that it did not actually expand the capacity of the airport, but was necessary only for safety reasons, as if the runway layout that the airport had been using with jets for the last 40 years was suddenly unsafe

The need for the terminal was clearly articulated to be based on requirement to expand international facilities at LAX to better compete in the global arena against other regional airports such as SFO and be fully ready for new generation of jets such as the A380. There was no safety argument for the terminal.

You might be thinking about the near completed Southside and now proposed Northside runway and taxiway reconfiguration which is being driven by a safety argument.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
Or the City of El Segundo could file another lawsuit

Why should they? They have specifically blessed the midfield concourse as one of the green lighted projects in the LAX Masterplan court settlement which they were a party to.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 38):
As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

Start believing soon.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
commavia
Posts: 9743
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:13 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41):
Its not "might", it has been approved. Actually the near 25 gate facility is one one of the many green lighted projects as part of the 2005 LAX Masterplan settlement. Its simply being built in phases with the Northside wing commencing first.

Okay, for those of us not knowing that much about LAX nor its Master Plan, can somebody help us out: what does this Midfield project have to do with AA/Eagle? Are AA/Eagle slated to be using part or all of it? If not, who will be using this midfield concourse? And where will it be? Is it going to be located across the enlarged two-way taxiway from the enlarged Bradley?

Thanks in advance.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:49 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 42):
Midfield project have to do with AA/Eagle?



Quoting Commavia (Reply 42):
Is it going to be located across the enlarged two-way taxiway from the enlarged Bradley?

The new midfield terminal will be located North-South along the back of the TBIT terminal and be connected under the taxiways via people mover system to TBIT.

AE terminal, along with ex TWA hangars, AA low and superbay hangars, fire station and some other miscellaneous facilities will be demolished. As part of the settlement AA has the right to build a single smaller 275,000sq ft hangar facility along with enclosed run up area, however I have not heard/seen if they will indeed pursue that. Additionaly no news on any replacement AE facilities -- the plan does not call for one.

For a visual see
http://www.laxmasterplan.org/pdf/Diagram_Alt-D_detailed_2015.pdf
Note however the projected redesign of northside T1-3 has not yet been approved and is pending a NASA/FAA study regarding runway relocation.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
commavia
Posts: 9743
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:04 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 43):
The new midfield terminal will be located North-South along the back of the TBIT terminal and be connected under the taxiways via people mover system to TBIT.

By the looks of that configuration sketch, it appears that midfield concourse is going to be pretty huge.

What are they planning to use all that space for? I realize that the plan also calls for consolidating all the north terminals into a long facility, which would leave much of those airlines without a home, but it would seem to be a west to, for example, put all-domestic Southwest or minimally-international Northwest into the brand new, international terminal.

If anything, I'd think it would make more sense to let either AA or United use it, but then again, who knows if either would want to part with their existing terminals. I must say though - wow - the idea of consolidating one of the alliances, either oneworld or Star, into a single terminal at a hub as busy and important as LAX, is incredible.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:21 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 44):
What are they planning to use all that space for?

International facility connected to TBIT. Basically replace the 20+ remote gates on the Westside of the airport with an actual terminal facility.

As previously stated, no decision has been made on any changes Terminal1-3 yet. The NASA/FAA Northside runway and taxiway study which only commenced in September is not planned to have recommendations on any airfield geometry changes for well over another year.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4454
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:44 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 40):
Not just this summer. That's a permanent cancellation.

LAX-LHR is still in schedule for AA to run 2x daily from April 7. Both LAX-LHR flights are bookable on AA.com.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 39):
I'm sure I'm missing a few.

You left out the biggest one: DFW.

DFW- 7x 738, 5x 757, 4x MD80, 2x 763.
It is what it is...
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:09 pm



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46):
LAX-LHR is still in schedule for AA to run 2x daily from April 7. Both LAX-LHR flights are bookable on AA.com.

Thanks for the correction. Looks like they changed their mind.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4454
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:14 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 47):
Thanks for the correction. Looks like they changed their mind.

Well more options for us anyway!  Wink
It is what it is...
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: AA Mainline Tops UA Mainline At LAX

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:38 pm



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46):
LAX-LHR is still in schedule for AA to run 2x daily from April 7. Both LAX-LHR flights are bookable on AA.com.

How are they pulling this off with the Heathrow slots they have? With JFK dropping to 5 daily from six, LAX was supposed to drop to daily to allow for the RDU-LGW and one DFW-LGW to move to Heathrow? Am I missing something? Or does the Gulf Air slot they picked up cover this?

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