LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:52 pm

Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:42 am

I have been hearing about DELTA's aircraft refurbishing plan and service upgrades for a long time and wonder when Delta will finally offer a consistent product and show what they have been promising for so long.

1 -- Aircraft interiors - -I have seen everything possible lately, half upgraded, totally upgraded, old and tired, etc...
2 -- Food service -- How worse can it get in Economy???? The international meal is soooo pathetic!!!!
3 -- Lie Flat seats -- I have been hearing about them for over 1 year. UA is now introducing theirs, and DL has yet to walk their talk on their plan.

I understand it takes a while to upgrade aircrafts, but geehh... someone have to have a measurable schedule and a plan!!!!

>> I just flew to Vienna in and OLD, TIRED, DIRTY 767-300, where the cloth seats were so dirty that i had to cover them with a blanket to be able to seat on them.
>> I flew from LA to ATL on a "converted" 767-400 that was actually half converted, with leather seats intermixed with cloth seats, no PVT's OLD dividing walls, it looked like a circus.
>> DL FA's seem to be have a great attitude, nice uniforms, and be proud of their airline. I just wish they would have a NICE and WORTHY product to back them up.. otherwise might soon lose their spirits! Flying in one of those old tired 767-300 must really dampen their enthusiasm.

I am a big fan of DL, but if it keeps like this I will take my business somewhere else -- Meaning -- to an European airline.
 
dalb777
Posts: 1698
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 9:35 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:50 am



Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
3 -- Lie Flat seats -- I have been hearing about them for over 1 year. UA is now introducing theirs, and DL has yet to walk their talk on their plan.

These will be introduced on the 777-200LR's. I think deliveries will begin in February/March '08??? These will be the same as AC's lie flat seats, but leather instead of cloth.

http://news.delta.com/photo_display.cfm?photo_id=160&view=low_res

http://news.delta.com/photo_display.cfm?photo_id=161&view=low_res

http://news.delta.com/photo_display.cfm?photo_id=162&view=low_res
Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
 
baw716
Posts: 1460
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:21 am

It is important to remember that DL hasn't been out of Chapter 11 all that long. It takes an enormous amount of capital to redo all the aircraft in their fleet; I would expect this to take years. As to their business class product, there are no plans to introduce the lie flat seat on the 767; it would cut the capacity of the aircraft by 1/3 in J class...and DLs business class has to be at least 50% full to make money (the Delta guys can tell us what the actual systemwide breakeven load factor is for J class).

I too am a Delta fan. However, no Amercan airline except Continental does a good job in Y class, in my opinion. The cost cutting has hit the international flights now as much as the domestic flights...and the offering on domestic flights at times and on some carriers is simply dreadful. Delta needs time to raise the capital needed to complete the overhaul of the fleet.

Just an aside, now that Delta is actively looking at acquiring another airline (United comes to mind), this tends to shift the thinking of management from fleet modernization to how to integrate two airlines into one...and United is a big animal in another alliance with huge debt issues. I'm not happy about the new changes to SkyMiles, but again, cost cutting is the be all and end all right now, especially with oil approaching $100/barrel and no limits to how high it might go.

In other words, we have to be a little patient. DL management has a lot on its plate right now and it really has to make the correct decisions to survive the immediate crisis and then deal with how to integrate two carriers the size of DL and UA if the deal actually comes to life. I still think flying DL is better than some other carriers domestically right now, but time will tell how that particular opinion will play out.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
ampropilot2b
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:04 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:08 pm

Actually, Richard Anderson recently told employees at a town-hall meeting that they were in the midst of making a decision about going all lie-flat on the 767 international fleet. It is very expensive, but Delta is pushing very hard to close the revenue gap between Delta and other carriers. Other features already decided on include better amenity kits, down blankets, better, food, and more. We should find out soon.
 
LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:52 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:29 pm



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 2):
In other words, we have to be a little patient. DL management has a lot on its plate right now and it really has to make the correct decisions to survive the immediate crisis and then deal with how to integrate two carriers the size of DL and UA if the deal actually comes to life

Thanks for your post Baw716. However, my relationship with DL is pure business, and if they do not get their act together I take my business somewhere else. If they have too many pressures in too many fronts, well, then learn how to manage them. I am also in the customer service line of business and I cannot tell my clients -- "Please have patience while i get my act together". This just does not work in real life.

Airlines elsewhere in the world manage to get their act together and offer decent service. Here in the US they have a victim consciousness and feel they can get along with anything. I hope customers realize they have an option!

Have you read the article on NPR news about "Airlines, listen, your passenger is speaking? Very interesting.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16352567
 
Iflewrepublic
Posts: 511
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:40 pm

LINATE, you mention that "airlines elsewhere in the world manage to get their act together and offer decent service..." You fail to mention (or is it realize?) that the carriers from foreign airlines are all subsidized by their governments. Since deregulation here in the States, the airlines have been on a "sink or swim" basis. Routes were eliminated, services were downgraded, etc., all because the airlines were forced into survival mode. With the deregulation came "merger-mania" of the 1980s. Granted, in some cases, the mergers were beneficial for both parties and for some they were anything but beneficial. The mergers saddled the surviving companies with huge amounts of debt, intregrating different corporate cultures, identities, fleets, on-ground and in-flight experiences, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Delta is doing what they can do within their means. Granted it takes time and money. To the layperson, who does not see the daily expenditures, Delta is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Considering that they are still around and are taking steps to improve their product, Delta is doing a phenomenal job. Flying on an "old, tired, dirty 767" is not "demoralizing" to the crew. Not being appreciated is demoralizing.

Thank your crew. They'll appreciate it.

Iflewrepublic.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
aviaction
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:21 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:03 pm



Quoting Iflewrepublic (Reply 5):
You fail to mention (or is it realize?) that the carriers from foreign airlines are all subsidized by their governments

Iflewrepublic - You can´t be serious about this ... while your statement was certainly true back in 70s and 80s, it doesn´t apply today anymore to the vast majority of "foreign airlines". Have a look at the real world.

Safe flying to all of us.
Aviaction
German by nationality, European by heart!
 
panamair
Posts: 3761
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
I understand it takes a while to upgrade aircrafts, but geehh... someone have to have a measurable schedule and a plan!!!!

You do realize that other airlines take just as long don't you? While it's nice that UA finally managed to get their first 763 with the lie-flat J seats off yesterday, do you realize that they only plan to have HALF of their 763 fleet done by September 2008? How long did it take AF to finally convert all of their 777/744/A343s to the NEV J pseudo-lie-flats?

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
Flying in one of those old tired 767-300 must really dampen their enthusiasm.

Well, they fly more than you so they have seen the 70% of 763ERs that have been refurbished with new leather seats nose-to-tail as well as the new AVOD system in J, so I think they will be OK....

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
I have been hearing about DELTA's aircraft refurbishing plan and service upgrades for a long time and wonder when Delta will finally offer a consistent product and show what they have been promising for so long.

Well, it really depends on where you fly mostly. For example, DL's focus on product improvements has been on JFK; hence if one flies out of JFK frequently, one would notice that most of the transcons are on newly-refurbished nose-to-tail AVOD planes; that the Y BOB is really quite good, that there are now proper cutlery and meal choices on JFK transcons in F, etc. Be patient, all these things take time to roll out on all carriers the size of Delta...
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:46 pm



Quoting Iflewrepublic (Reply 5):
LINATE, you mention that "airlines elsewhere in the world manage to get their act together and offer decent service..." You fail to mention (or is it realize?) that the carriers from foreign airlines are all subsidized by their governments.



Quoting The Waterworld Times:

In other news, British Airways will take a £5 million charge in the next quarter due to the unexplained catastrophic failure of computer displays company-wide. It's thought that a post on the internet site Airliners.net claiming all non-US airlines to be subsidised caused a massive reflexive action resulting in the forceful ejection of liquids by users which damaged the display devices en masse beyond repair.

Please do make sure to inform BA, SQ, CX, JL, LH, VS, BR, CI, LA, KE, OZ, DJ, QF, et al, of this. I'm sure they'll want to head down to their respective ministries of finance to pick up their cheques.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5446
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:15 pm



Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
2 -- Food service -- How worse can it get in Economy???? The international meal is soooo pathetic!!!!
3 -- Lie Flat seats -- I have been hearing about them for over 1 year. UA is now introducing theirs, and DL has yet to walk their talk on their plan.

I understand it takes a while to upgrade aircrafts, but geehh... someone have to have a measurable schedule and a plan!!!!

If you're flying in economy, does the presence or absence of lie-flat seats in business matter? By the same token, if you're in BusinessElite, do you care if the economy class meal is "pathetic?"

Delta does have a "measurable schedule" with respect to lie-flat seating -- when they announced the product, they were up-front in stating that it would arrive with the new 777-200LR's which would be delivered in early 2008. They're still (at least publicly) on track to meet that plan.

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
I just flew to Vienna in and OLD, TIRED, DIRTY 767-300, where the cloth seats were so dirty that i had to cover them with a blanket to be able to seat on them.

Some of the aircraft are going to have the old interiors until they can all go in for cabin refitting; that's just a fact of life. They've got 100+ 767's and they can only refit a few at a time. The things that can be changed more rapidly are being done; i.e. returning glassware to domestic F, decent quality buy-on-board on longer domestic flights, Breezeway boarding for elites, etc. Sure, getting a plane with a ratty old interior sucks, but they can't exactly park the planes until the refittings are done.

And even vaunted carriers like SQ have a hodgepodge of configurations in their premium cabins; will you get a "suite" or just a lie-flat seat in F? Will you get a lie-flat seat in J or a recliner seat? Do you get a "suite" in F on EK or just a recliner seat on the 777-200?
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
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Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:41 pm



Quoting LINATE (Reply 4):
I cannot tell my clients -- "Please have patience while i get my act together". This just does not work in real life.

Hasn't that however been, in real life, "The Never Ending Story" of the U.S. legacy airlines since the late 1990s? It is only so because the U.S. legacies have connected the dots that there is an essentially endless supply of customers who will keep coming and coming back again regardless of whether the airlines have their act together. For which customers are, if anything, even more to blame than the airlines.

Quoting Iflewrepublic (Reply 5):
the carriers from foreign airlines are all subsidized by their governments. Since deregulation here in the States, the airlines have been on a "sink or swim" basis.

Ever heard of the legalized scam called Chapter 11 abuse that has kept U.S. airlines "swimming" that should have been allowed to "sink?"

Quoting Aviaction (Reply 6):
while your statement was certainly true back in 70s and 80s, it doesn´t apply today anymore to the vast majority of "foreign airlines".

True indeed. At least none of the foreign airlines who are are relevant competitors to the U.S. legacies are government subsidized so far as I know. As for today ...in the real world... it is the U.S. legacy airlines who are government (ie taxpayer) subsidized albeit through the provebial back door.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:42 pm



Quoting LINATE (Reply 4):
Thanks for your post Baw716. However, my relationship with DL is pure business, and if they do not get their act together I take my business somewhere else.

Take your business elsewhere then. Compared to US carriers, many are impressed by Delta's service levels and aircraft interiors. 763 interiors are the worst of the fleet, but are being upgraded so just wait a bit. I bet Delta is getting more converts than leavers.

Lastly, Delta 763's are by no means OLD and.. TIRED. How did you come to that conclusion anyway? The average age of a Delta 763 is 11.8 years...
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:52 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:46 pm



Quoting Iflewrepublic (Reply 5):
You fail to mention (or is it realize?) that the carriers from foreign airlines are all subsidized by their governments. Since deregulation here in the States, the airlines have been on a "sink or swim" basis.

 Embarrassment -- Here we go with the same victim consciousness again. Sorry... it does not fly anymore... It would if we were in the 70'sor 80's. I am the customer, it is not my business why they do not have their act together. If they want my business they need to give me good service regardless of their economical situation or struggles. Otherwise I go somewhere else.

Quoting Iflewrepublic (Reply 5):
I guess what I'm trying to say is that Delta is doing what they can do within their means.

Again. I appreciate their efforts.. .but again, I cannot tell my clients -- "Please put up with my bad service while I get my act together" -- I would lose them.. They do not care. They want me to provide them with great service NOW!

Quoting Iflewrepublic (Reply 5):
Thank your crew. They'll appreciate it.

I do that all the time. I have been an FA for a great airline so I have been on the other side.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
How long did it take AF to finally convert all of their 777/744/A343s to the NEV J pseudo-lie-flats?

However, AF previous product was much better than DL's current one, so the discrepancy was not that HUGE.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
If you're flying in economy, does the presence or absence of lie-flat seats in business matter? By the same token, if you're in BusinessElite, do you care if the economy class meal is "pathetic?"

WOW... Your post does not even deserve an answer...
 
LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:49 pm



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 11):
Lastly, Delta 763's are by no means OLD and.. TIRED. How did you come to that conclusion anyway? The average age of a Delta 763 is 11.8 years...

Another DL die hard are you? I am a big fan of DL but being a fan does not prevent me from seeing reality. i came to that conclusion by flying in quite a few of those. The conclusion is EXPERIMENTAL. And I am fortunate enough to have flown several other airlines to be able to compare.
 
panamair
Posts: 3761
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:51 pm



Quoting LINATE (Reply 12):
However, AF previous product was much better than DL's current one, so the discrepancy was not that HUGE

Not at all...remember that AF's last J product before NEV was the L'Espace 127 seat (it started out as the seat with the 127 degree recline and then they realized it was ridiculous and then increased seat recline by a few more degrees) with 48 inch seat pitch. Yes. 48 inches. This was when DL was already offering the 160 degree recline and 60" pitch BE seat.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting LINATE (Reply 13):
Another DL die hard are you? I am a big fan of DL but being a fan does not prevent me from seeing reality.

Just stating the facts, buddy.

Once again, take your business elsewhere. Delta hates pissy customers.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
WindowSeat
Posts: 1198
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:54 pm

Hello LINATE,

First, I would like to point out to you that your initial post sounds more like a rant than anything else. And that's perfectly ok. After all you're human. It's ok to have a bad experience on the airline and we welcome the fact that you decided to share it with us. The question is, did you bring it to the attention of the airline? If so, what did they do?

Second, the fact that you are complaining about it, means you probably somewhere care that Delta should become a better airline, or had better expectations from it. That's wonderful. Delta needs well traveled people like you to critique them. That's the only way they will improve their onboard experience on all fronts.

Third, I completely agree with your theory of, "I'll take my business elsewhere". However, research shows that people who actually threaten that, DON'T want to go elsewhere, they just want things to get better where they are. Consciously or sub consciously, they have an allegiance to that business. If they really wanted to take their business elsewhere, they already would have, without a word. Now, just to prove you're not the statistic if you want to go somewhere else, then it would be pride and ego more than anything else.

Fourth, while playing a victim is not what you want to hear - please bear with us while we get our act together - the fact is that it is taking Delta some time to make all these changes in such a mammoth organisation. But, if you are a true businessman, as you say you are, then look where they were a year or two ago, look up what they promised to deliver by now and then evaluate whether they have kept good on their promises. Any good businessman will tell you that it might be a case for sticking with them, knowing that they will probably deliver on their future promises too. This happens routinely in business. If not, entrepreneurs would never stand a chance to make it big.

In the end, the decision is yours whether you stick to Delta or not. But know that you actually helped Delta be a better airline, one customer at a time.

cheers
WindowSeat

p.s. I routinely travel 250,000 miles in a year on various airlines worldwide and am also drawing on my experience just like you are.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
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fanoftristars
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:16 pm



Quoting LINATE (Reply 12):
WOW... Your post does not even deserve an answer...

Actually I think it does deserve an answer. I don't think the poster was being rude. If you're only flying economy, then why do you care about the lie flat seats? And if you're flying Business Elite and you want your lie flats, then who could really care about the food in economy? I know I don't.

Quoting LINATE (Reply 13):
Another DL die hard are you? I am a big fan of DL but being a fan does not prevent me from seeing reality. i came to that conclusion by flying in quite a few of those. The conclusion is EXPERIMENTAL. And I am fortunate enough to have flown several other airlines to be able to compare

Here are some photos I took in a "Tired old 767" a few months ago... Maybe I am easy to please, but it certainly didn't seem old and tired. It actually seemed pretty nice to me...





"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:43 am

And that's the OLD BizE cabin mind you.
If you want to find a US legacy carrier with a better overall experience, be my guest. Delta right now is above average, When all is said and done, they will be the best US legacy carrier out there.
-A
What now?
 
LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:52 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:57 am



Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 16):
And that's perfectly ok. After all you're human. It's ok to have a bad experience on the airline and we welcome the fact that you decided to share it with us.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your first paragraph sounded condescending and out of boundaries, I wish you had left it out. Would have given your post a bit more credibility. And yes, I did let the company know my comments.

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 17):
Actually I think it does deserve an answer.

I did not think he was being rude, I just did not see the point. If I am commenting on the general product it does not matter if it is in Y or C. And I do sometimes travel Y and sometimes C.

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 17):
"Tired old 767" a few months ago... Maybe I am easy to please, but it certainly didn't seem old and tired. It actually seemed pretty nice to me

When several seats are so dirty that one needs to put a blanket on them in order to seat... and the projectors do not line up with the screen and you can only see half of the movie, and the floor is full of stains, and the food tray is so small that you can eat it all in one bite, and the walls are all patched up, etc etc... That is OLD and TIRED to me, and sorry, I do expect more than that from an airline that I care for.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:09 am



Quoting LINATE (Reply 19):
When several seats are so dirty that one needs to put a blanket on them in order to seat... and the projectors do not line up with the screen and you can only see half of the movie, and the floor is full of stains, and the food tray is so small that you can eat it all in one bite, and the walls are all patched up, etc etc... That is OLD and TIRED to me, and sorry, I do expect more than that from an airline that I care for.

And Delta is working on that so calm down...

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
I understand it takes a while to upgrade aircrafts, but geehh... someone have to have a measurable schedule and a plan!!!!

Delta does have a plan. They are getting rid of the projectors on the 763's, getting new carpet, new seat covers, and an overall update. Note that this has already been done on 70% of the aircraft, getting rid of the projectors will come soon though.

Personally, I don't see the point of this thread if Delta is doing away with everything you complained of anyway. Perhaps a little research would've prevented this?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:52 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:52 am



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 20):
And Delta is working on that so calm down..

Please limit your comments to the topic and leave personal comments out -- I do not appreciate you telling me to calm down. Thank you.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 20):
Personally, I don't see the point of this thread if Delta is doing away with everything you complained of anyway.

You are not actually required to read it or post to it...
 
incitatus
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:04 am



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 18):
And that's the OLD BizE cabin mind you.

No, as far as the 767-300s are concerned, that is not the OLD BizE cabin. It is the CURRENT one.
Delta does not have a plan to phase out those seats yet and according to other posters is currently looking at the options.
So it will be a while before these seats are the OLD ones - except when compared to pretty much any other carrier.
Stop pop up ads
 
WindowSeat
Posts: 1198
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:01 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting LINATE (Reply 19):
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your first paragraph sounded condescending and out of boundaries, I wish you had left it out. Would have given your post a bit more credibility. And yes, I did let the company know my comments.

It certainly wasn't intended to be and I still believe it was not. My credibility won't falter for stating the obvious, but your ability to accept constructive criticism becomes painfully obvious.

Before you question the obvious...let's look at it, piece by piece shall we?

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
I have been hearing about DELTA's aircraft refurbishing plan and service upgrades for a long time and wonder when Delta will finally offer a consistent product and show what they have been promising for so long.

There is no 'measurable' timeline that you have stated here...clearly indicating your statement was not based on facts but on a 'feeling'. A perceived passage of time. Not a level headed businessman like statement...

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
1 -- Aircraft interiors - -I have seen everything possible lately, half upgraded, totally upgraded, old and tired, etc...

Again, 'lately' doesn't tell me anything. A statement like, 'lately we have been getting a good ontime performance' means nothing to me. Old and tired? what is that? People look old and tired. I don't see any reference to specifics here. Do you know the average age of the Delta 767 fleet?

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
2 -- Food service -- How worse can it get in Economy???? The international meal is soooo pathetic!!!!

I dare a single person on here, besides you of course, to question that this statement is not a rant.

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
3 -- Lie Flat seats -- I have been hearing about them for over 1 year. UA is now introducing theirs, and DL has yet to walk their talk on their plan.

They have always said it will be once when the 772LRs arrive. Did you have your facts wrong? They will walk their talk when they said they would. Were you expecting something different? being in customer service as you say, you should know what unrealistic expectations are...

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
I understand it takes a while to upgrade aircrafts, but geehh... someone have to have a measurable schedule and a plan!!!!

this deserves a good old...WTF?

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
>> I just flew to Vienna in and OLD, TIRED, DIRTY 767-300, where the cloth seats were so dirty that i had to cover them with a blanket to be able to seat on them.

that old and tired thing again...

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
>> I flew from LA to ATL on a "converted" 767-400 that was actually half converted, with leather seats intermixed with cloth seats, no PVT's OLD dividing walls, it looked like a circus.

circus, eh? yeah, this is a rant, try and prove it otherwise.

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
>> DL FA's seem to be have a great attitude, nice uniforms, and be proud of their airline. I just wish they would have a NICE and WORTHY product to back them up.. otherwise might soon lose their spirits! Flying in one of those old tired 767-300 must really dampen their enthusiasm.

Speculation...did you ASK the F/As if it dampens their enthusiasm? In fact, morale at Delta has never been higher and yes, I did ask the F/As on the very same old and tired 767 flights (20 of those this year, to Europe alone).


LINATE, this above post might seem mildly condascending, but then again, you asked for it. Look, is it so hard for you to accept that you are human, just like all of us - we all rant and rave at the same time about the things we like and dislike. I was merely saying, there is nothing wrong with it. [rant] There was no need to get your panties all twisted in a bunch. [/rant]  Wink

cheers
WindowSeat.

[Edited 2007-11-20 18:20:46]
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
beertrucker
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:19 am



Quoting LINATE (Reply 21):

LINATE I still can't see why you are getting so upset. Look how many aircraft Delta has. They have to bring them in such a way not to have to cancel flights. From all of your posts on this one topic, it feels like you want Delta to snap its fingers and have the whole upgrades done overnight. You know it does not work this way. Remember the NEW Delta only came out of chapter 11 not that long ago. Maybe to make you happy Delta needs to shut all operations down for a month and redo all of their planes so that no matter what plane you get on it is with the new style that you want. If you really do like delta and a die hard Delta fan you will be willing to give them the time to get the upgrades done. If you are not a Delta fan then do what you said you were going to do and go find another airline to fly. Just remember Delta along with the other airlines are not magicians they can't change an airline over in a night.
Fly HI
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:25 am



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 22):
No, as far as the 767-300s are concerned, that is not the OLD BizE cabin. It is the CURRENT one.

Old:

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The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:31 am



Quoting LINATE (Reply 19):
When several seats are so dirty that one needs to put a blanket on them in order to seat... and the projectors do not line up with the screen and you can only see half of the movie, and the floor is full of stains, and the food tray is so small that you can eat it all in one bite, and the walls are all patched up, etc etc... That is OLD and TIRED to me, and sorry, I do expect more than that from an airline that I care for.

Here's the difference between DL and UA, at least in coach. I flew from ATH to JFK in a 763 that was very similar to that described by Linate, although I don't recall the food being as bad as described. Dirty seats, dirty floors, toilets in disrepair, and only two of the three projector bulbs operating. I recently flew in a UA domestic 763, which are among their worst birds. Here's the difference. While UA's 763 was just as worn, it was at least clean. You can have a ratty, worn seat, but why does it have to be dirty?

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 23):
that old and tired thing again...

Well, it's true, at least in my experience.

When I walk onto an aircraft, cleanliness - or the lack thereof - is the first thing I notice. Call me picky, but when I pull out the in flight magazine and a boarding pass from the day before comes out with it, it's a pretty good indicator that the cabin cleaning crews aren't all that motivated.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
WindowSeat
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting LINATE (Reply 26):
Please keep your comments to the topic. I do not appreciate your comments about the panties in a bunch. You do not know me and I found that disrespectful. I am interested in discussing a topic but but appreciate you keeping healthy boundaries. If you cannot then i am really not interested in your input. Thank you WindowSeat.

I was very much on-topic in my initial reply. Boundaries go both ways, there was nothing condascending in my first reply and I would really appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of it.

My entire second post, however, was in response to yours. If you do make accusations, I would really appreciate it if you have the courtesy to accept criticism, and more importantly, decisive proof refuting it.

Please do not take something that I myself admitted to be a rant out of context. Thank you LINATE.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
LINATE
Topic Author
Posts: 71
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:01 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
You can have a ratty, worn seat, but why does it have to be dirty?

 checkmark 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
When I walk onto an aircraft, cleanliness - or the lack thereof - is the first thing I notice. Call me picky, but when I pull out the in flight magazine and a boarding pass from the day before comes out with it, it's a pretty good indicator that the cabin cleaning crews aren't all that motivated.

 checkmark 

Thanks for your post...

Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 24):
LINATE I still can't see why you are getting so upset.

Beertrucker, I am not upset at all. I am in Vienna now, can't sleep with the time change and am finding highly amusing and interesting to hear all the different opinions and how people get so defensive about a topic that for me is purely business.
...Even knowing that on Thursday I will have to fly back on that TIRED OLD 767 again... I hope they send a nicer machine...LOL
Cheers,
 
Mike89406
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:42 am

Linnate I understand youre frustration and I certainly don't have much of a history with DL. I recently flew DL for the 1st time on 5 different planes this last summer after the emergence from chapter 11 on MD-90, 757, MD-80, 767-400, and ERJ-145 RNO-SLC, SLC-DCA, DCA-ATL, ATL-LAX, LAX-RNO.

My experiance was different than yours the seats in Y were all leather and comfortable and. I havent flown DL TATL or TPAC however it does happen I have seen dirty aircraft and poor service. However I can assure you that DL form what I seen is better normally from what I seen in my limited experiance and reading various recent trip reports by people traveling DL.

As far as the food is concerned it wasn't a meal from SLC-DCA, ATL-LAX however it's more than I recieved on most airlines in the US these days in economy. Try flying UA I never recieved even peanuts or any type food in Y class ever on a UA flight even anywhere domestically on (only beverages) at least TED by UA gave me a couple of snacks on a short flight. DL just started up the BOB meals some airlines don't normally have those.

Not too mention UA's seats on the 737 are generally cramped and uncomfortable I'm not glorifying DL however since you might have had a bad experiance I dont think it reflects DL as a whole nowdays. I've also had my share of bad service on other airlines as well. CO is the only airline that I have high regards for from past experiance. Hot towels in Y class once, meals, comfortable seats in Y class etc.. But I digress US carriers have suffered the deterioration in service before 9/11 and more so since 9/11 I think its reflective of the industry as a whole here in America. I don't think DL is the worst but it's not much different than most legacy carriers in the US especially in Y. F or J class I havent flown so I cant judge that.

If you want great service then I recommend trying European Carriers when traveling across the pond.

DL is going through a huge transformation mind you while some pax may or may not be patient enough to wait it out some have seen big improvements and some may have not. DL is upgrading a lot of the interiors of aircraft in the last year yes it may be slow however i heard the new product is nice if you manage to get on one of those aircraft then you might see a different service.


It was also mentioned earlier that DL just recently re-emerged from chapter 11 so overnight changes aren't going to happen. DL also taking on some ex TWA 757's for ETOPS flights and some more 777's so having said all of that maybe once they get the fleet upgraded there will be some major changes.

I don't know what to tell you except better luck next time.

Mike

[Edited 2007-11-20 19:47:58]
 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:01 am



Quoting LINATE (Reply 29):
how people get so defensive about a topic that for me is purely business.

Pot. kettle. black.  Wink

Quoting LINATE (Reply 26):
If you cannot then i am really not interested in your input.

Or want to hear anything other than what your opinion is.

You are a customer service professional. Now act like it or stay out of it!

Kinda sucks hearing that from this side doesn't it? Remember you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Quoting LINATE (Reply 12):
I appreciate their efforts.. .but again, I cannot tell my clients -- "Please put up with my bad service while I get my act together" -- I would lose them.. They do not care. They want me to provide them with great service NOW!

Lets see.

Delta mainline operates 439 aircraft. With 311 destinations in 52 countries, Delta is the leader.

If they take out just a few aircraft that is lost revenue and passenger movement.

April 30th, 2007, the carrier just came out of bankruptcy. Can't really do much in the way of spending money on refurbishing anything until out of bankruptcy. It has been just under 7 months since they have come out of bankruptcy. Considering the list of aircraft that have already been done, thats quite an accomplishment.

So you say that you are in customer service (even though your profile says project manager) you should know that the sole business of Delta is to provide both passenger and cargo transportation as a flag carrier. Did they provide you a ride and a seat to wherever it was you were going? Yes they did. They completed their end of the bargain.

And while you are complaining about the seat you were in, did you bother asking for another seat? If it was as dirty as you say it was, it should have been written off as a inop seat or at the very least, the cushion be replaced. That would have been a quick fix.

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
1 -- Aircraft interiors - -I have seen everything possible lately, half upgraded, totally upgraded, old and tired, etc...

You love that phrase "old and tired" don't you? Just curious, was it just one aircraft you were on that looked old and tired?

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
2 -- Food service -- How worse can it get in Economy???? The international meal is soooo pathetic!!!!

Lol. My co-worker's 13 year old daughter says "sooooo pathetic" when she is ranting away about something. Oops did I say rant?

Instead of just saying your opinion, tell us what it was really like? I am curious to know what was so bad about it?

Quoting LINATE (Thread starter):
3 -- Lie Flat seats -- I have been hearing about them for over 1 year. UA is now introducing theirs, and DL has yet to walk their talk on their plan.

I know this has been said numerous times, but the lie flat will be coming on line with their 777s in the up coming year.

I mean its nice that you share your opinion here at a.net, disregard any sort of constructive criticism, and tell us to disregard your post if we don't agree with it. But instead, talk to the folks that matter in this decision making process. I.E. DELTA AIR LINES!

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
beertrucker
Posts: 202
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting LINATE (Reply 29):
...Even knowing that on Thursday I will have to fly back on that TIRED OLD 767 again... I hope they send a nicer machine...LOL

I have lost count on how many times you have said OLD AND TIRED in this post. I guess you want to Delta to read your post and make sure they send you one of the 67s that does not look OLD AND TIRED(damn now you got me saying it too!) The way you come off in this post is like you want Delta to go out of their way to make you happy, and forget about everyone else who is flying on them that day. Just to make you happy. I am sure more people on this site would rather fly on one of the brand new looking ones over an(I can't believe I am going to say this again) OLD AND TIRED one, but most of us on here who visit this site know it takes time to do that change so we deal with it knowing it is being done as fast as they can,

Does this mean if you are going to yell at Delta for how one of their planes looks, who has not made it into MTC to get the new interior done yet. Does that mean I can yell at Delta the next time I fly on them for being on one that does not have the new livery yet. I mean come on it is only paint they should have them all done by now. But I live in the real world and I know it does not happen over night.

[Edited 2007-11-20 20:57:03]
Fly HI
 
The Coachman
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:09 am

LINATE

What do you think is a reasonable timeframe in which DL should have changed its BE seats to lie-flats?

What do you think is a reasonable timeframe in which DL should have upgraded its economy seats?

DL has over 430 aircraft. I do ask this in all seriousness.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
PiedmontINT
Posts: 220
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:11 am



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 25):

Is it just me or does it seem like the new BizElite seat is nothing more than just a new seat cover? I could be wrong and I haven't seen that seat in person but judging from the pics you linked there doesnt seem to be a substantial difference between the "old" (current) and "new" seat designs.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:22 am

Interesting thread. I had a VERY positive experience on DL-J enroute JFK-CDG. You can read the TR at Delta Airlines DL 118: 09/AUG/07: JFK-CDG: J Cabin (by Abrelosojos Nov 20 2007 in Trip Reports). Most A.Netters know that I am tough to impress ... and I don't mince my words ... but DL made a very positive impression.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
laca773
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:54 am



Quoting LINATE (Reply 13):

Another DL die hard are you? I am a big fan of DL but being a fan does not prevent me from seeing reality. i came to that conclusion by flying in quite a few of those. The conclusion is EXPERIMENTAL. And I am fortunate enough to have flown several other airlines to be able to compare.



Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 16):
Fourth, while playing a victim is not what you want to hear - please bear with us while we get our act together - the fact is that it is taking Delta some time to make all these changes in such a mammoth organisation. But, if you are a true businessman, as you say you are, then look where they were a year or two ago, look up what they promised to deliver by now and then evaluate whether they have kept good on their promises. Any good businessman will tell you that it might be a case for sticking with them, knowing that they will probably deliver on their future promises too. This happens routinely in business. If not, entrepreneurs would never stand a chance to make it big.



Quoting LINATE (Reply 19):

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your first paragraph sounded condescending and out of boundaries, I wish you had left it out. Would have given your post a bit more credibility. And yes, I did let the company know my comments

Delta is doing a wonderful job considering their recent history with bankruptcy. I can't believe the anger in this thread. I see you have been a member for less than 5 hours and being rude and disrespectful is not going to get you anywhere whatsoever. I've been a member for sometime now and this is truly sad and child like. People have differences of opinions but we all approach each other in a positive, assertive and civil manner. There are some wonderful guys and gals on this site who I for one have learned many things from and I am very greatful for that.

Please drop the attitude. It just doesn't look good at all.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 34):
Interesting thread. I had a VERY positive experience on DL-J enroute JFK-CDG. You can read the TR at Delta Airlines DL 118: 09/AUG/07: JFK-CDG: J Cabin (by Abrelosojos Nov 20 2007 in Trip Reports). Most A.Netters know that I am tough to impress ... and I don't mince my words ... but DL made a very positive impression.

Cheers,
A.

Hey there, Abrelosojos, how have you been? I always look forward to reading your TR's. Some of the best on here.

Regards,
LACA773
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:58 am



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 35):
Hey there, Abrelosojos, how have you been? I always look forward to reading your TR's. Some of the best on here.

Regards,
LACA773

= Thanks. Been good. Just came back from a 4 month round-the-world. Its hard settling back to real life. Glad you appreciate the TRs. Lots coming. Check out the one I just posted on DL. Another on AF to be posted prior to hitting the sack.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:13 am



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 22):
No, as far as the 767-300s are concerned, that is not the OLD BizE cabin. It is the CURRENT one.
Delta does not have a plan to phase out those seats yet and according to other posters is currently looking at the options.
So it will be a while before these seats are the OLD ones - except when compared to pretty much any other carrier.

Actually, the BE seats pictured are the OLD ones (the navy leather ones) which are being phased out. The "new" ones are all leather (lighter blue) and while still having the same frame, do have some better features, including a better padded seat overall, a higher-rising leg/foot rest (almost horizontal), and of course, the AVOD PTV. These are now on all 777s, about 70% of the 763ER fleet, and all of the international 764ER fleet.
 
D328
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:28 am

Every flight I had on DL mainline this past summer 757, 764, were all very well maintained and very clean, F/A's some of the nicest in the industry, but hey I am used to flying on US since it was free. Now US had some dirty/tired planes.
 
krillep
Posts: 1
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:39 pm

Hi there everybody,

I have a question, I'm traveling from Paris to Atlanta now in December and I'm flying with DL on the 767-400 in business.
I often fly AF and enjoying their business seats very much and when i saw this post i was starting to wonder since i never have flown with DL before which type of seat i will travel in??

Thank you very much.

Best regards

Kristian
 
AF Cabin Crew
Posts: 930
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:53 pm

Ia Orana all !

I have been flying on Continental and Delta across the country in order to pick up some miles for my Flying Blue card.
After 3 transcon on CO and one LAX-ATL on DL I must say that I prefer Delta much better. Continental was really nice, don't get me wrong but I found Delta to be even better ! Lttle snack offered eventho the flight depart LAX around midnight, TV's at everyseat, extremely nice flight attendants, gret attitude, great uniforms ! It was a really nie experience. ATL airport was also nice, shops, restaurants etc.. I Found the whole experience with Delta to be extremely pleasant and might switch most of my flying to them !

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew

PS I wasn't nonrevving !
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 692
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:31 pm



Quoting LINATE (Reply 12):
Again. I appreciate their efforts.. .but again, I cannot tell my clients -- "Please put up with my bad service while I get my act together" -- I would lose them.. They do not care. They want me to provide them with great service NOW!

I just wanted to comment on this. I have seen numerous companies put their stores or places of business through construction and other improvments and they say exactly that, "please pardon our mess and sub-par service while we redo the building or whatever". It is very common for companies to do that, and you know what, when companies like Walmart do that kind of stuff to all of their stores it doesn't happen very quickly either.

I will say that I do work in the customer service world and there are times when a sub-par service is the best you can give. When I am working at an information desk and 10 people are all asking questions I can't answer all of them in a timely manor now can I. If you demand your service "NOW!!" as you say it then good luck getting it all the time.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:43 pm



Quoting Krillep (Reply 39):
which type of seat i will travel in??

Probably a newly covered seat or an old dirty worn out one....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:52 pm



Quoting Lono (Reply 42):
Probably a newly covered seat or an old dirty worn out one....

All of the international 767-400ERs have the leather seat covers. So therefore, Krillep, you will get a newly covered seat.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:01 pm



Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 33):
Is it just me or does it seem like the new BizElite seat is nothing more than just a new seat cover? I could be wrong and I haven't seen that seat in person but judging from the pics you linked there doesnt seem to be a substantial difference between the "old" (current) and "new" seat designs.

You're correct. This seat is a stopgap for the period between the old BizElite seat and the Lie-Flat seat which will be fleetwide by 2010. The refurbishment seems like a major improvement!
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:13 am



Quoting Evan767 (Reply 44):
This seat is a stopgap for the period between the old BizElite seat and the Lie-Flat seat which will be fleetwide by 2010. The refurbishment seems like a major improvement!

It has not been confirmed that the sleeper suites will be offered on the 767s. However, Delta is also exploring other lie-flat options, such as sloped flat seats.

Also, I have been wondering about the BusinessElite seats that will be installed on the ex-TWA 757s. I have heard that they will be a different type of BusinessElite seat, made by Recaro rather than B/E Aerospace.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:26 am

And in some defense of Delta.........you know those little clear plastic cups they put ice and pour drinks into?
Well, on Delta those cups are bigger then the ones on Northwest.....
And you thought they were all the same size..............nope!
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:27 am



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 43):
All of the international 767-400ERs have the leather seat covers. So therefore, Krillep, you will get a newly covered seat.

WOW!!!!! a newly cover seat... lucky day!!!
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
b777a340fan
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Delta Service Disparities

Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:49 pm



Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 1):
These will be introduced on the 777-200LR's. I think deliveries will begin in February/March '08??? These will be the same as AC's lie flat seats, but leather instead of cloth.

http://news.delta.com/photo_display.cfm?photo_id=160&view=low_res

http://news.delta.com/photo_display.cfm?photo_id=161&view=low_res

http://news.delta.com/photo_display....w_res

Who knew you could find a dentist's chair in the air!  Big grin
 
CPH757
Posts: 652
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RE: Delta Service Disparities

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:14 am

Apparently it seems that the 767-300ER's are updated 70% according to a few posts in the thread. On seatexpert.com it states that the updating process will be finalized within this year. Can anybody confirm this?
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-

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