na
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LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:37 pm

In the December issue of Aero International there is an interesting interview with LHs 747 fleet boss. He says the airline is very excited to get the 748I and he can see LH ordering more (!) Well, this man is understandably partial for the 747, but still, thats good to read. The future 747-fleet of LH will be between 30 and 50 aircraft strong according to the article.

With 15-16 flight hours per day LH has the highest utilisation worldwide for 747s. That means that the first batch of LHs 744s (the larger part of the fleet), built in 1988-92, will be due for retirement in 2011 - 2015, in line with the 748I deliveries which will happen between late 2010 and 2013. Its unlikely that some of these aircraft will be retired to freighters. None can be spared for this before 2010, and by then even even youngest (of the first batch I mean) will already be close to 100.000 flight hours, the oldest will have passed that number which, at average, is the age a 747 is due for final retirement.
 
Lumberton
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:39 pm

IIRC, the did take 20 options when they placed their orders. I'm sure they got superb pricing and terms.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
WINGS
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:40 pm



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
In the December issue of Aero International there is an interesting interview with LHs 747 fleet boss. He says the airline is very excited to get the 748I and he can see LH ordering more (!) Well, this man is understandably partial for the 747, but still, thats good to read. The future 747-fleet of LH will be between 30 and 50 aircraft strong according to the article.

With 15-16 flight hours per day LH has the highest utilisation worldwide for 747s. That means that the first batch of LHs 744s (the larger part of the fleet), built in 1988-92, will be due for retirement in 2011 - 2015, in line with the 748I deliveries which will happen between late 2010 and 2013. Its unlikely that some of these aircraft will be retired to freighters. None can be spared for this before 2010, and by then even even youngest (of the first batch I mean) will already be close to 100.000 flight hours, the oldest will have passed that number which, at average, is the age a 747 is due for final retirement.

Don't forget about the 15 A380-800's + 10 options.  Wink

Regards,
Wings
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B747forever
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:44 pm



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
The future 747-fleet of LH will be between 30 and 50 aircraft strong according to the article.

And with 15A388s. It will be a really big fleet.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
na
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:46 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 3):
And with 15A388s. It will be a really big fleet.

Don´t forget LH is the worlds largest international carrier - and it wants to retain its title if possible. (A tough job looking at Emirates plans...)
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:46 pm

Could well happen. 20 748s for FRA, 20 for MUC, and 10 for HAM Big grin . Okay, I'm dreaming a bit here, but with LH now poised to actually get serious about non-FRA/MUC longhaul flying, there's lots of widebody capacity bound to be needed, and with FRA still not having much growth options movement-wise, and MUC also facing some constraints, I could well see LH needing more 748s for FRA/MUC flights to free up A343s for non-FRA/MUC flights.
 
columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:47 pm

I have read the interview, too and found it very interesting. He was very confident of the 747-8I indeed and I can see LH taking delivery of all 20 options of the 747-8I, if they should order the 747-8F they will very likely be the airline with the largest 747 fleet. Not bad for one airline that was said to become an all Airbus operator.  Smile
Any idea on how will LH will use the upperdeck of the 747-8I ? Will it be all first and business class ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
B747forever
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:48 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 4):
Don´t forget LH is the worlds largest international carrier - and it wants to retain its title if possible

True.

Quoting NA (Reply 4):
(A tough job looking at Emirates plans...)

It will be a really tough job.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
MEA-707
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:07 pm

I would have expected that Lufthansa is secretly thinking, OMG what did we do, seeing noone else wants the 747-8i.
Might not be so attractive to fly a planetype as one of the few or the only one, like Air Inter with the Mercure.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:14 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
I would have expected that Lufthansa is secretly thinking, OMG what did we do, seeing noone else wants the 747-8i.
Might not be so attractive to fly a planetype as one of the few or the only one, like Air Inter with the Mercure.

Really not much of an argument as LH often flies its airplanes for up to 30years. Aprt from that irrelevant resale value argument all other risks that come with being the sole customer can be fixed with an appropriate contract.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:18 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
I would have expected that Lufthansa is secretly thinking, OMG what did we do, seeing noone else wants the 747-8i.
Might not be so attractive to fly a planetype as one of the few or the only one, like Air Inter with the Mercure.

I'd be amazed if they were thinking that and giving press releases saying they are going to order more.

This is a daft thing to say anyway - the 748I is going to be a very capable jet and LH seem to rate it. I bet they get 80+ orders for the pax version by EIS. Its never going to be a runaway success in its niche like the A380 is going to be but it will rack up a decent return.

Look at all the airlines that could possibly order but havent yet:

EK
QR
AI
PK
TG
MH
JL
NH
AZ
VS
CI
SV
SA
OZ
MU
CZ
CA
CX
UA
NW

Everyone seems to think none of the above will order the 748I and LH will be the sole operator of the passenger version, which is a bit silly really. The 748I wont get many of those above but its bound to get a few.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
redflyer
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:22 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
Its never going to be a runaway success in its niche like the A380 is going to be

The A380 is going to be a "runaway success"? Okay!
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:27 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
I would have expected that Lufthansa is secretly thinking, OMG what did we do, seeing noone else wants the 747-8i.
Might not be so attractive to fly a planetype as one of the few or the only one, like Air Inter with the Mercure.

We forget on here that airlines don't care what we think. LH has a huge level of experience with the 747 already and obviously respect the model and Boeing. They know how much profit they generate from that aircraft family. They have a very good idea too what the 748i is going to do for them. If it fits one of their routes, pleases passengers, and turns a good revenue for them then they have a winner. If there is a downturn in the economy LH may prove to be the smartest airline around. We all know how important cargo is for LH and an important part of their success. The 748i's lucrative cargo capability beyond passenger bags will be an insurance policy for them and dovetails nicely with their operation. We too often look at airlines buying aircraft like some new fashion trend that has just hit the runway. Just because that airline bought it we have to have it. Sure there is some of that and yes there is the issue of competition. However, any airline that simply buys based on that won't last long. The serious number crunching and business case must also be there. LH is so meticulous I would bet they know exactly what they are doing. They have bought both the 748i and the 388. They have a good idea how they are going to use them and unlike some on here don't lump them together as aircraft doing a head to head competition.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:30 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
Its never going to be a runaway success in its niche like the A380 is going to be

The A380 is going to be a "runaway success"? Okay!

In the VLA niche, taking into account world VLA demand - i'd say the A380 pretty much has it cornered, wouldnt you?  Wink

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 13):
We forget on here that airlines don't care what we think

Good job really because we'd have seen some scrapped A340s by now otherwise.

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 13):
The 748i's lucrative cargo capability beyond passenger bags will be an insurance policy for them and dovetails nicely with their operation. We too often look at airlines buying aircraft like some new fashion trend that has just hit the runway. Just because that airline bought it we have to have it. Sure there is some of that and yes there is the issue of competition. However, any airline that simply buys based on that won't last long. The serious number crunching and business case must also be there. LH is so meticulous I would bet they know exactly what they are doing. They have bought both the 748i and the 388. They have a good idea how they are going to use them and unlike some on here don't lump them together as aircraft doing a head to head competition.

Yup - agree completely.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Beaucaire
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:41 pm

The current exchange-rate in favour of the $ makes this type of decision easy for LH...
Airbus Chairman Enders is right when he is blowing the alarm-whistle ...
The US are clearly letting the $ slide to corner Europe exports - I see some point where the $ will lose its status as reference value.
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redflyer
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:22 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
In the VLA niche, taking into account world VLA demand - i'd say the A380 pretty much has it cornered, wouldnt you?

I absolutely agree that the A380 has the VLA "niche" cornered. However, that is not to say it will be a runaway success. But why are we rehashing this classic (and worn-out) argument? I was just giving you a tease so there's no reason to start another A380 argument.  Smile

Best regards,

R  wave 
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:32 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 16):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
In the VLA niche, taking into account world VLA demand - i'd say the A380 pretty much has it cornered, wouldnt you?

I absolutely agree that the A380 has the VLA "niche" cornered. However, that is not to say it will be a runaway success. But why are we rehashing this classic (and worn-out) argument? I was just giving you a tease so there's no reason to start another A380 argument.

Best regards,

 Wink Its been a little tame round here lately!
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:44 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
Good job really because we'd have seen some scrapped A340s by now otherwise.

Yup, and we'd not have seen a 777 scrapped yet  Wink (thank you Varig).
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:19 pm

He also said in that interview that he does not expect LH to be the sole 748i carrier.

OK, we don't talk about that other VLA here, but with the 748i's on order and option, that gives them enough capacity to wait for the 389. If the 10 options are exercisaed, they will likely go for the larger variant.
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Stitch
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:34 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
I would have expected that Lufthansa is secretly thinking, OMG what did we do, seeing no one else wants the 747-8i. Might not be so attractive to fly a planetype as one of the few or the only one...

On the flip side, with a fleet of up to 50 747-8I's, what do they care? That is more then enough planes to ensure Boeing will support the program for as long as Lufthansa Teknik (sic) needs them to.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 2):
Don't forget about the 15 A380-800's + 10 options.  Wink



Quoting NA (Reply 4):
Do not forget LH is the world's largest international carrier - and it wants to retain its title if possible.

Perhaps LH is planning to be more aggressive in defending it's turf and sees the 747-8I as a good weapon in that role.

We speak a good deal about the "capacity gap" between the A380-800 and the 777-300/A340-600/A350-1000. I have postulated that airlines are looking to the future in a binary mode - either more frequencies with 77Ws and A3510s or less frequencies with A388s and A389s - and as such, do not care about that gap. But perhaps LH is different.

LH flies 744s to many cities that won't take an A388 now and may not take one for some time - if ever. LH may see their 15-25 A388s as the weapon they will use to protect the "trunk routes" where they will be head-to-head with A388s from competitors like EK, QF and BA along with "allies" like SQ. And they might see their 20-50 748Is as a way to grow traffic to those existing 744 destinations that their competitors and allies will be serving with A350s and 787s.

Many believe the A388 is compelling to customers because it allows them to leap-frog competitors flying 747s in markets that have limited frequency options (either due to lack of available slots or limited traffic growth opportunities). The same will be true of LH flying the 747-8I against customers flying smaller planes, as well.
 
Qazar
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:56 pm

The low value of the US dollar makes it very attractive for airlines around the world to buy Boeing right now. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised (even as an Airbus boy) that Airbus is raking in those sales considering how much more expensive the Euro is as a world currency.

I have always greatly respected LH management, and I believe it is one of the best-run airlines in the world. I believe they will eventually order more of the A380 - well beyond the 10 options they have logged on presently. There is definitly room for at least 30 A380 in the LH fleet added to teh B748s ordered and optioned.

Right now however, they see their Euros going further with a USD conversion and buying B748

Way to go LH!

Cheers!
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:31 pm



Quoting Qazar (Reply 20):

Right now however, they see their Euros going further with a USD conversion and buying B74

The contract was signed earlier this year and the first payments have been made at the then ROE. The present low $ is, as always, a mixed blessing for companies doing business world wide. It is safe to say, that the annual US$ income of the airline is far greater than the expenditures for future aircraft purchases, which is then spread over a depreciation period of 15 or more years. Nobody knows what the ROE will be, when deliveries of the 748i start in 2010 and the final and largest payments hjave to be made on delivery of each a/c.

Today's ROE is just a momentum, not more and not less.

Airbus sells in US$ as well, BTW.
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trex8
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:48 pm



Quoting Qazar (Reply 20):
The low value of the US dollar makes it very attractive for airlines around the world to buy Boeing right now. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised (even as an Airbus boy) that Airbus is raking in those sales considering how much more expensive the Euro is as a world currency.

Airbus sells in US $, depreciation of the $ vs Euro just means they make less money (or lose money) but the airlines are still paying the same amount in $.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
I would have expected that Lufthansa is secretly thinking, OMG what did we do, seeing noone else wants the 747-8i.
Might not be so attractive to fly a planetype as one of the few or the only one, like Air Inter with the Mercure.

I don't expect to see Lufthansa thinking that way at all. They know what they need, the 748i meets the need and they're happy with their decision.
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N1KE
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:57 am

Good on Lufthansa. They obviously see the need and market for 748i. I am sure they will convert all of the options they hold and may even add a few more as well. The 747 has served Lufthansa well and will continue to in the future.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 2):

The article was about the 748i and what the 747 boss of Lufthansa thought of it. Why do we need to know about the A380. It just starts the usual 748 v 380 comments and then the topic goes of topic.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:31 am



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 9):
Really not much of an argument as LH often flies its airplanes for up to 30years. Aprt from that irrelevant resale value argument all other risks that come with being the sole customer can be fixed with an appropriate contract.

I don't think they will be thinking that at all... the new 748I will have nice interiors and excellent CASM. IF and thats a big IF pax reject the 748I in future (they won't at least until most current 744s increase their retirement rate), then LH can just simply convert them into Freighters. After all thats what the 748 is selling mostly as (sure its a slightly shorter version as the F but no big deal).
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tdscanuck
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:39 am



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 26):
After all thats what the 748 is selling mostly as (sure its a slightly shorter version as the F but no big deal).

The 747-8i and 747-8F are now the same length. They were originally slightly different but they upped the length of the 747-8i several months ago.

Tom.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:05 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 27):
The 747-8i and 747-8F are now the same length. They were originally slightly different but they upped the length of the 747-8i several months ago.

I thought it was the other way around... the 8I was longer than the 8F? So it would be either the 8I shortened or the 8F lengthened...
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Stitch
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:51 am



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 28):
I thought it was the other way around... the 8I was longer than the 8F? So it would be either the 8I shortened or the 8F lengthened...

The 747-8I was 5m shorter then the 747-8F when first offered.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:56 am

Of course more airlines will order the 747-8I.

There are airlines in some parts of the world that will order whatever Boeing offers and not consider anything else very seriously. Japan springs to mind as a strong (though not perfect) example of this, and Israel and Saudi Arabia are also candidates. And as we know, some US airlines have a Boeing-only preference.

Provactively, it's a bit like Iran only considering Tupolevs.  stirthepot 
 
columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:15 am



Quoting N1KE (Reply 24):
The article was about the 748i and what the 747 boss of Lufthansa thought of it. Why do we need to know about the A380. It just starts the usual 748 v 380 comments and then the topic goes of topic.

I think the comment of Wings was valid. This thread is about an interview with the Chief Pilot of the Lufthansa Boeing-747 fleet saying that LH is confident in the 747-8I and will likely order more and that LH could operate up to 50 747-8.
Since LH is only flying 30 747-400s 50 747-8I and 15 (+10) A380s would mean that LH would double their fleet of VLAs.
Since both aircraft are larger than the 747-400 this would mean a signifiant growth in capacity. In order to discuss LH´s thread since LH has ordered both. In so far it is a Lufthansa fleet thread discussing Lufthansa´s need on VLAs.
If LH is taking all options they have on the 747-8I and the A380 they would have 65 VLA . People are always wondering what EK will do with 58 A380s but 65 747-8I and A380 is not less optimistic. The difference between EK and LH is that LH has not ordered all aircraft at once and did not stick to one manufacturer but EK will maybe change that, too.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
LH may see their 15-25 A388s as the weapon they will use to protect the "trunk routes" where they will be head-to-head with A388s from competitors like EK, QF and BA along with "allies" like SQ. And they might see their 20-50 748Is as a way to grow traffic to those existing 744 destinations that their competitors and allies will be serving with A350s and 787s.

Many believe the A388 is compelling to customers because it allows them to leap-frog competitors flying 747s in markets that have limited frequency options (either due to lack of available slots or limited traffic growth opportunities). The same will be true of LH flying the 747-8I against customers flying smaller planes, as well.

I think that this is their strategy.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 20):
Right now however, they see their Euros going further with a USD conversion and buying B748

This might also take an important role in the 787 vs A350 decision. If Boeing comes out with the 787-10 pretty soon LH might take advantage of the low Dollar.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):

OK, we don't talk about that other VLA here, but with the 748i's on order and option, that gives them enough capacity to wait for the 389. If the 10 options are exercisaed, they will likely go for the larger variant.

LH did not exercised their options on the A380, yet, unlike QF,AF and other A380 customers so it might very well be the case that LH will convert their options into orders for the larger variant.

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
With 15-16 flight hours per day LH has the highest utilisation worldwide for 747s. That means that the first batch of LHs 744s (the larger part of the fleet), built in 1988-92, will be due for retirement in 2011 - 2015, in line with the 748I deliveries which will happen between late 2010 and 2013. Its unlikely that some of these aircraft will be retired to freighters. None can be spared for this before 2010, and by then even even youngest (of the first batch I mean) will already be close to 100.000 flight hours, the oldest will have passed that number which, at average, is the age a 747 is due for final retirement.

I believe to have read that LH Cargo said that they are not planning to buy new aircraft soon but get converted 747-400 around 2010.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:29 am



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
In the December issue of Aero International there is an interesting interview with LHs 747 fleet boss. He says the airline is very excited to get the 748I and he can see LH ordering more (!) Well, this man is understandably partial for the 747, but still, thats good to read. The future 747-fleet of LH will be between 30 and 50 aircraft strong according to the article.

Is the LH 747 fleet boss also in charge of the freighter Jumbo's? If so, is he hinting to an 30-50 strong B747 passenger and cargo fleet?

Cheers!  wave 
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columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:35 am



Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 32):
Is the LH 747 fleet boss also in charge of the freighter Jumbo's? If so, is he hinting to an 30-50 strong B747 passenger and cargo fleet?

LH has no 747 freighters, only MD11s. They phased out their last 747-200F years ago. Also LH Cargo is a different company separate from LH passage.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
N1KE
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:35 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 31):

i personnally don't believe that Wings remarks are valid in this thread.Why do we need to know the orders for 380's when discussing 748's. I remarked that the thread would then turn into a 748 v 380 thread. Remember, the article was about the 748 and Lufthansa and how he saw the aircraft and the possibilities of more being ordered. The thread now has nothing to do with the original article. We are debating other types of aircraft, how other airlines order and utilise their airplanes. Most of these subjects have been covered a vast number of times. Lets get back on topic
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:39 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 31):
LH is taking all options they have on the 747-8I and the A380 they would have 65 VLA . People are always wondering what EK will do with 58 A380s but 65 747-8I and A380 is not less optimisti

it is a rather small figure, considering the opportunities the single market offers, once that market is extended to unrestrictefd flying from the single market to third countries. I think we all agree, that LH is well positioned for these opportunities.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 32):
Is the LH 747 fleet boss also in charge of the freighter Jumbo's? If so, is he hinting to an 30-50 strong B747 passenger and cargo flee

LH and LCAG are separate companies with a separate management. There is of course some fluctuation between both, for instance, the present CEO of LCAG is a pilot and he will keep flying for LH as he does not have the time to convert to M11. Likely that a fleet of 748Fs would be managed by LH on a contract basis for economics, but that would be something to decide once it becomes a topic on the agenda.
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WINGS
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:45 am



Quoting N1KE (Reply 24):

The article was about the 748i and what the 747 boss of Lufthansa thought of it. Why do we need to know about the A380. It just starts the usual 748 v 380 comments and then the topic goes of topic.



Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 25):

Quoting N1KE (Reply 24):
The article was about the 748i and what the 747 boss of Lufthansa thought of it. Why do we need to know about the A380. It just starts the usual 748 v 380 comments and then the topic goes of topic.

Both of you completely missed my point. Does the A380 also not represent an increase of their VLA fleet? My comment had nothing to do with 748i vs A380 rather a simple observation, that both the 748i and A380 will complement/replace some of Lufthansa's existing 744 fleet.

How can we or why should we overlook this fact?

We might as well just stop posting stuff in the hope it will not offend those that are more narrow minded and unable to see the full picture of reality.  Wink

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:11 pm



Quoting N1KE (Reply 34):
i personnally don't believe that Wings remarks are valid in this thread.Why do we need to know the orders for 380's when discussing 748's. I remarked that the thread would then turn into a 748 v 380 thread. Remember, the article was about the 748 and Lufthansa and how he saw the aircraft and the possibilities of more being ordered.

The reason why we need to know about the A380 when discussing Lufthansa´ s order for 747-8I is really simple:

LH has ordered both aircraft and will use them to replace their fleet of 747-400s.If you don´t count all options LH´s combined A380 and 747-8I fleet will be slightly larger than their current 747-400 fleet if they take delivery of all options their fleet of A380s and 747-8Is would be twice as big as the fleet of aircraft they have replaced.
Again this is not a 747-8I vs. A380 thread but a LH fleet thread. You can discuss the question what LH will intend to do with such a large number of VLAs.
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Stitch
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:53 pm



Quoting N1KE (Reply 33):
i personnally don't believe that Wings remarks are valid in this thread.Why do we need to know the orders for 380's when discussing 748's.

Because LH has both and I for one think it is relevant to discuss how each could be used by LH, as I did in Reply 19. After all, LH is not going to operate each type in a vacuum.

What isn't relevant to this topic is the relative merits of each in terms of economics and efficiencies, but WINGS didn't go there and I don't believe anyone else has, either.

So as long as we continue to keep the discussion focused on destinations and strategy, I see no reason not to add the A380 as a discussion point.
 
WINGS
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:11 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 30):
I think the comment of Wings was valid.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):

Because LH has both and I for one think it is relevant to discuss how each could be used by LH, as I did in Reply 19. After all, LH is not going to operate each type in a vacuum.

What isn't relevant to this topic is the relative merits of each in terms of economics and efficiencies, but WINGS didn't go there and I don't believe anyone else has, either.

Thank you Colomba & Stitch. It's always a pleasure to discuss aviation with such open minded individuals.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:57 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 4):
Don´t forget LH is the worlds largest international carrier - and it wants to retain its title if possible. (A tough job looking at Emirates plans...)

Good point. That requires expansion (as EK will expand as fast as possible). There are two ways to expand:
1. Frequency
2. Gauge

LH should do a bit of each. Part of frequency will be growing alternate hubs. For that bit, we're not talking VLA's. (Not much.) In fact, that's a 787 opportunity (or A350).

Quoting Columba (Reply 36):
this is not a 747-8I vs. A380 thread but a LH fleet thread. You can discuss the question what LH will intend to do with such a large number of VLAs.

And that is a good point. What new routes is LH planning to open? I assume a growing presence to both India and China. But any specific plans? What are the bilaterals limits?

Off topic but related, LH getting a photo op on the "next Iron chef" was masterful. Exactly the right market to gain "mindshare." (Yuppie wives who help drive yuppie husband's flight choices...)  Wink It sold their service very well.

Lightsaber
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Buddys747
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:31 pm



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
Everyone seems to think none of the above will order the 748I and LH will be the sole operator of the passenger version, which is a bit silly really. The 748I wont get many of those above but its bound to get a few.

 checkmark  It seems some on here think too that since EK, SQ, or BA didn't order the 748i, that it will have no orders. There will be more orders and the 747 is a very capable plane, period. LH must think so.
 
columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 am



Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 41):
It seems some on here think too that since EK, SQ, or BA didn't order the 748i, that it will have no orders. There will be more orders and the 747 is a very capable plane, period. LH must think so.

First of all EK is not of the race as they have clearly stated other airlines especially from China and India will order it, too.
Maybe the 747-8I will not sell in such high numbers as all its predecessors but it will definitely have its own share.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 38):
Thank you Colomba & Stitch. It's always a pleasure to discuss aviation with such open minded individuals.

You are very welcome  Smile I really don´t understand why should why the A380 should not be mentioned since this is thread is about an airline that has ordered both so you have to raise the question on how the aircraft will be used.
Also this thread did not become an A vs B thread after the mentioning of the A380. Nobody called it the "whale jet" vs "the queen of the skies" or similar it is a very nice discussion and I want to thank the participants for that.
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Leskova
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:33 am



Quoting Dalavia (Reply 29):
There are airlines in some parts of the world that will order whatever Boeing offers and not consider anything else very seriously. Japan springs to mind as a strong (though not perfect) example of this, and Israel and Saudi Arabia are also candidates. And as we know, some US airlines have a Boeing-only preference.

I'm guessing you missed this bit of news...  Wink
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...s/07_11_12_saudi_arabian_a320.html

While it's not for A380s or B748s, it somehow does take Saudi Arabia out of your list. And whether Japan and/or Israel will remain on that list is also pretty much in doubt.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
On the flip side, with a fleet of up to 50 747-8I's, what do they care? That is more then enough planes to ensure Boeing will support the program for as long as Lufthansa Teknik (sic) needs them to.

If they were the only one to have ordered any type of B748, I'd say they'd probably be a bit worried nonetheless - but given the success the B748F has been enjoying I fully agree with what you're saying. Even if no-one else orders the -8I, there's still a sizeable amount of -8Fs flying around to keep LH safe.

Quoting Columba (Reply 30):
This might also take an important role in the 787 vs A350 decision. If Boeing comes out with the 787-10 pretty soon LH might take advantage of the low Dollar.

Well, as others have pointed out as well: Airbus also sells in USD, so it's pretty much irrelevant for the airlines ordering planes: $120,000,000 transferred to a bank account in Seattle are worth the same as $120,000,000 transferred to a bank account in Toulouse (though the intra-EU bank transfer will cost a lot less... Big grin).

Quoting Columba (Reply 30):
I believe to have read that LH Cargo said that they are not planning to buy new aircraft soon but get converted 747-400 around 2010.

I thought they had said that they didn't want conversions because they were always less capable than the "real thing", i.e. aircraft built as freighters?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
He also said in that interview that he does not expect LH to be the sole 748i carrier.

I also doubt that they'll remain the only ones - the gap between the B773/A351 and A388 is too big (though I still seriously doubt that that's even of relevance for most, though obviously not all, airlines out there). But there's simply always the issue of being able to fill the plane.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:52 am



Quoting Leskova (Reply 43):
thought they had said that they didn't want conversions because they were always less capable than the "real thing", i.e. aircraft built as freighters

They said that as well but sometime this year they said that they take delivery of converted 747s when the first A380s/747-8Is arrive. With LH 747s they know what they get rather than with Varigs MD 11s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
mrcomet
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:12 am

I don't think Lufthansa cares whether people order the 747 or not. With one of the world's largest fleets and one of the most extensive and established networks, the need for commonality is outweighed by the need for proper sizing of the aircraft. A lot of people are going to lose profitability when then abuse A380s which could have been avoided by sticking in a 748I. I am surprised that SQ and others didn't also come to this conclusion. LH has built one of the worlds most successful and profitable airlines. I trust their judgment over those of this list.
The dude abides
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:48 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 44):

They said that as well but sometime this year they said that they take delivery of converted 747s

I doubt for several reasons that LCAG will take converted 74Fs. Fuel is one of the reasons, next, if they take they would likely go to Jade or NewCo as a stop gap. Next, 747s are needed in FRA for capacity reasons., Runway #4 is far down the line, because of political issues.

The best reason for not to however is, that the a/c are needed by LH for as long as they can fly them. There have been a few decisoions made this year, like deploying 3 x 343s in DUS. Likely we will see 744s flying alongside 748is in 2014 and 15.
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Buddys747
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:09 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 42):
First of all EK is not of the race as they have clearly stated other airlines especially from China and India will order it, too.
Maybe the 747-8I will not sell in such high numbers as all its predecessors but it will definitely have its own share.

My comment was the fact that people on this forum, not EK themselves, have stated the 748i will have no more orders.
I agree the 748i will not replace the 744 numbers, but I'm pretty sure there will be several more orders. I hope to see LH order more, besides, why not get the chance to see two new VLA in the skies.
 
columba
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RE: LH: Even More 748Is?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:11 pm



Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 47):
I agree the 748i will not replace the 744 numbers, but I'm pretty sure there will be several more orders. I hope to see LH order more, besides, why not get the chance to see two new VLA in the skies.

 checkmark  Agreed
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong