BooDog
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Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:09 pm

Hey commercial pilots... how's the opening of east coast military airspace going so far? I got a bone pilot hangin' at my apartment for thanksgiving afternoon and he's curious about it. (Heck, so am I...)
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flyf15
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:23 pm

From everyone I have talked to that operated into that area of the country yesterday, it made absolutely zero difference.

The problem in New York is runway and airport capacity, as well as the fact that all the airports are so close to each other. Opening up random chunks of airspace that have been purposefully designed out of the arrival/departure corridors does absolutely no good for anyone.

Sounds to me like it ended up just being a lot of BS from Bush to make it seem like he was doing something, when in reality, he did absolutely nothing to help anyone. But, like I said in another post, since yesterday went pretty smoothly across the country and there was this military airspace thing... even though the two have nothing to do with each other, Joe Public is going to think so and demand that more military airspace be opened more often and its just going to create a headache for the government, military, and airlines.

He might as well have put a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner behind him when announcing it.
 
Jpax
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:26 pm

My flight was delayed an hour on the ground and did two holding patterns for 'air traffic control' at first and then 'weather' in EWR.
 
BooDog
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:26 pm

Yes... I agree it's BS, and we all know what the real solutions to the problems are; but I don't want this thread to turn into a "this is stupid/not stupid" argument.... We already have that thread on here somewhere.
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
flyf15
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:35 pm

Sorry, didn't mean to send it in that direction. My point is, it was all talk and didn't do anything to help anyone. Its not where the problem lies and our airspace system isn't designed to be able to just integrate random chunks of air otherwise not available. Just more airspace to put planes into holding patterns I guess.


Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.
 
BooDog
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
My point is, it was all talk and didn't do anything to help anyone. Its not where the problem lies and our airspace system isn't designed to be able to just integrate random chunks of air otherwise not available. Just more airspace to put planes into holding patterns I guess.


Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.

yes. I agree.

But there's no numbers, data, etc. that can back up our opinions. Only the testimonies of pilots/flight dispatchers/etc. who have the open airspace to work with. That's the info my buddy's looking for. Evidence. LOL. We must find the opening up of military airspace as either "did work" or "did not work."  

[Edited 2007-11-22 14:56:32]
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:03 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):
Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.

Actually, I think the better analogy would be that it's like opening another lane without installing additional booths at the toll plaza to get the cars through faster.


Both my flights went well on Tuesday though. We were about 10 minutes late on both of them. After pushing back from the gate, we had to wait on the taxiway in DAB for about 15 minutes because of flow control into ATL. For ATL-RDU we were about 10-15 minutes late leaving because the plane using the gate before my flight pushed back late. All-in-all, considering the time of year, I was very pleased.

I hope I get similar luck on Sunday when I return to Florida.  Smile
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Tornado82
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:55 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 4):

Its like having a 2 lane tunnel that is always backed up. Adding another lane of traffic to the tunnel isnt going to do anything.

You must be from Pittsburgh?  Silly

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):

The problem in New York is runway and airport capacity, as well as the fact that all the airports are so close to each other. Opening up random chunks of airspace that have been purposefully designed out of the arrival/departure corridors does absolutely no good for anyone.

Exactly, none of these corridors are super close to the big cities... and just because pax volumes increase mightily over this period doesn't mean the airlines suddenly added 2000 flights a day this weekend. There are simply too many planes trying to get onto too few approaches. The only way I could have seen this being an aide is if a squall line/SWAP type of deal was happening on the east coast and they needed the military areas to go around cells for flow.
 
A340Spotter
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:02 am

Think the ability to use the airspace going northbound into EWR, LGA, etc. on Wednesday went out the window when the airports went into a Ground Delay Program. Once that occurred, the routes became an extra cost of time and fuel, much like flying from the Pacific Northwest to the New York area through Canada, like what occurred as well.

JSD
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:38 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 14):
As far as I know, it was restricted areas offshore that were going to be unused anyways, but still officially published as being "hot". They simply put out notams saying that airspace was temporarily cold and open for use by ATC for civilian aircraft.

Same idea as any other restricted area that goes cold during certain times.

And... therefore, it was pretty much useless to everyone. Due to being restricted areas, no published departures, arrivals, airways, or other routes go through them.

So because all the military training was stopped because of the holiday, they are making a big issue about "opening" more airspace, gotcha.
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SPREE34
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:41 am



Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 8):
the routes became an extra cost of time and fuel,

How? Maybe I don't get it, but where's the extra cost?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:32 am

When I took off from LAS on Monday, I did find that we were over LSV meaning that they really did open up the airspace. On our approach to EWR, the FO told us that we were put in a holding pattern and less than 5 minutes after telling us and making 2 small turns, we were out of the holding pattern and back on approach. I guess it did make a difference.
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A340Spotter
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:54 am



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 9):
How? Maybe I don't get it, but where's the extra cost?

The routes that they opened up add about 15 minutes of flying time, hence more fuel and more costs...

JSD
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
 
flyf15
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:05 am



Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 10):
I did find that we were over LSV meaning that they really did open up the airspace

Airspace over military air fields is open to controllers every day unless the field is within some sort of restricted area.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:51 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 12):
Airspace over military air fields is open to controllers every day unless the field is within some sort of restricted area.

Exactly so does anyone know where the FAA got all this extra airspace from? We all know they didn't get Washington D.C open to the public without all the extras.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
flyf15
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 13):
Exactly so does anyone know where the FAA got all this extra airspace from? We all know they didn't get Washington D.C open to the public without all the extras.


As far as I know, it was restricted areas offshore that were going to be unused anyways, but still officially published as being "hot". They simply put out notams saying that airspace was temporarily cold and open for use by ATC for civilian aircraft.

Same idea as any other restricted area that goes cold during certain times.

And... therefore, it was pretty much useless to everyone. Due to being restricted areas, no published departures, arrivals, airways, or other routes go through them.

[Edited 2007-11-22 20:07:57]
 
BooDog
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:09 am

Thanks for the input everybody.
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tb727
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:27 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
He might as well have put a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner behind him when announcing it.

LOL

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):

The problem in New York is runway and airport capacity, as well as the fact that all the airports are so close to each other. Opening up random chunks of airspace that have been purposefully designed out of the arrival/departure corridors does absolutely no good for anyone.

I came out of TEB Wednesday and they closed down everything over WHITE for flow which sucked because as I was started up and ready to taxi, they re-routed me over DC and the Carolinas and then down. We were told to expect about a 20 minute taxi delay and it only ended up being 10, which was a nice surprise. Then we just had the normal wait to take off delay of about 15 minutes in line for runway 24. Washington and Atlanta Center were both boasting about the open military space which didn't really help any of us because everyone over the water had to go on the AR routes which already cut through the Military airspace in corridors and that stuff isn't hot all the time anyways.

The big areas that I think maybe helped with airspace opening up was probably out west (over Nevada especially) were there are huge areas you can never cut direct through.

We'll see on Sunday, hopefully flow isn't too bad in the NYC area and I have an easy day in and out of TEB. The problem is the amount of airplanes in the air around there, all the bizjets and RJ's whereas in the good old days, there were only bigger jets flying around with some smaller stuff.
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SPREE34
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RE: Open Military Airspace Results

Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:18 pm



Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 10):
I did find that we were over LSV meaning that they really did open up the airspace.

I've flown over LSV so many times I can't count them. LSV is not inside a Restricted Area.

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 11):
The routes that they opened up add about 15 minutes of flying time, hence more fuel and more costs...

Meaning if they were available 24/7, the carriers wouldn't file for or use the routes anyway.

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 13):
Exactly so does anyone know where the FAA got all this extra airspace from?

Yeah, I know. It's the Warning Areas over the water. The Emperor has no clothes!

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 15):
So because all the military training was stopped because of the holiday, they are making a big issue about "opening" more airspace, gotcha.

Yes. Nothing was done differently than any other weekend or holiday. Bush didn't do anything but blow smoke up the public's skirt.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.