helvknight
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AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:27 am

AF have been ordered to pay €8000 compensation plus the cost of the second seat to a 175 Kg (385 lb) passenger who was denied boarding unless he stumped up for a second seat.

The passenger was measured with wrapping tape in the gate area.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/23/air_france_compensation/

Good job WN don't fly in France.
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PanHAM
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:52 am

Put him into an LD3 and ship him as freight in the belly, for a lumpsum.

Imagine this guy sitting in a normal Y center seat on a full flight. Would his seat neighbours get compensation as well? Even if he takes A and B I would not want to be the guy in C.

I had this experience once with an Austrian lady on a LH flight CDG-FRA, that was in C class and she had the aisle seat with the center seat free, she was still, what we call in freight, overlapping.

I pitied the poor fella who sat next to her on the connecting F70 to SZG.
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B747-4U3
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:54 am

I am absolutely fuming with this incident, and I think Air France were well within their right to charge him for 2 seats.

Just think of the people sitting next to him! This guy weighs 3 times what I do, and I'm think if there were 3 of me in an economy class seat it would have been pretty uncomfortable for me and everyone around me.

It is this lardos fault that he is so fat, he must therefore accept the consequences of his actions, and except that as a consequence of being so disgustingly large he must stump up for two seats for the benefit and comfort of his fellow passengers.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:06 am

While I agree that AF was rioght to charge him for an extra seat, it IMO should have been done a bit differently. If the article was accurate, then he should not have been measure and stuff in front of other passengers, a 'pulling over' to the side and a chat would have been how I would have liked it to be handled if I was fat.

I guess he was embarrased more than anything else at what aparantly happened in front of the other PAX. But IMO AF was right in asking for a second seat to be paid for and should not have been fined. A simnple apology and a small gift for the embarassment would have been sufficient
 
elal 744
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:24 am

I am upset with your replies. If any airline makes it policy to make obese passengers buy extra seats, then so be it. But since there is no said policy, AF should have been fined and who ever gave the order to humiliate the passenger fired.

Measuring his size – in front of other passengers. Next stage they will be looking at the shape of his skull or the shade of his skin to decide if he needs any “extra assistance”

It is the luck of the draw who you sit next to. Sometimes fat and sometime a hot supermodel and sometime a smelly old guy with flatulence and sometimes a kind old lady who gives you home baked cookies and sometimes a screaming baby.

If racial profiling is immoral, how immoral is judging someone by their size?

To B747-4U3 I ask would you use a racial euphemism (like the N word) to describe anyone? Then why “lardos”?

I hope you and PanHAM always get to sit next to supermodels or movie stars who give you oral sex during take off. Other than that get off you high horse and show some sensitivity.
Vercere bracis meis
 
below
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:31 am

Sorry, I have to join in the general sentiment: I have been seated next to obese passengers in coach, and I should ask for compensation!

As I am just a relatively small guy, it is easy for the obese person next to me to expand into my space.

I do not know about AF, but a number of airlines have provisions for making you buy a second seat. However -- I should say unfortunately -- they do not enforce the regulations often.

And at least one of my friends actually just buys two seats, because he does not want to risk being stuffed in one Y place.
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:35 am



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):

I hope you and PanHAM always get to sit next to supermodels or movie stars

I've been through all the categories you mentioned, except getting that indecent job in public of course. A sreaming baby will stop screaming after a while and children have that right, never makes me angry. A seat neighbour who talks you deaf will stop talking if you don't reply and mind your own business.

But sitting next to such a guy for 8 hours in an Y seat is not bad luck., it is torture. Not only for the fellow passengers but for the guy himself.

BTW, I am not exactly small myself, but I am not "overlapping", if I were, I would rather buy 2 Y tickets for my own comfort.
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Zkpilot
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:58 am

Good on AF for charging, not good in the way they went about it.

Nothing worse than sitting next to a large (usually sweating with BO) person in the seat next to you and overlapping to take up half your seat.

IATA really should be the ones to stand up and propose it as a rule to all member airlines... pax over a certain weight/size must be given 2 seats or business class and airlines be allowed to charge for it. It would then be up to the airline to decide whether they wanted to charge for or just give that seat away. I think most would end up charging if it became common practise.

Unlike other forms of transportation, entertainment etc etc airline seats can often be for very long periods of time (ok so train trips can be long too but they have room onboard for bigger seats). Trains, buses etc are not really affected performance or fuel cost-wise by the weight of a passenger....airlines are....on a transcontinental flight an aircraft can easily burn 350-500kg of fuel per pax of standard weight (approx 80kg for most airlines) sure the plane carries some freight etc but thats beside the point. An airline with a fuel bill of $300 per normal sized pax suddenly has to pay double or more effectively because of a large obese passenger without getting any extra $ from that passenger. 160kg = double, 240kg = triple. 240kg might sound unlikely, but I've been there seen a pax unable to sit in a wheelchair (until the side rails were removed) being pushed (the tires were compressed flat by the weight) and it does happen.
Fair enough they have a right to travel, but like everyone else they should pay their fair share.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:02 am

From reading the article, it seems to me the fine wasn't so much about charging for an extra ticket it was how they went about the procedure. Since AF has no stated policy concerning fat people in Y, they can't just make up arbitrary rules on the spot.

I'm all for the 'extra seat' rule...unfortunately, AF doesn't have one so it's merely harassment. What the EU has to do is tack an addendum onto their passenger bill of rights;

Every passenger is entitled to the seat space they pay for and any incursion is subject to compensation. Further, a passenger is entitled to ONLY the seat space they pay for and if they are unable to remain within the boundary defined by the size of the seat, as many additional seats as necessary must be purchased by that customer until these requirements are met.

Publish that on every booking site, travel agency, ticket office and at check in. Make it a required question/answer when purchasing the ticket so there is no chance of misunderstanding. This keeps it as private as possible and avoids embarrassment.
What the...?
 
Alessandro
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:25 am

Well, there´s a point, if he´s 2,3meter tall, would it be the same?
Shall tall people be forced to pay extra?
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NoUFO
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:28 am



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):

Agreed.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
From reading the article, it seems to me the fine wasn't so much about charging for an extra ticket it was how they went about the procedure. Since AF has no stated policy concerning fat people in Y, they can't just make up arbitrary rules on the spot.

Agreed.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
Every passenger is entitled to the seat space they pay for and any incursion is subject to compensation. Further, a passenger is entitled to ONLY the seat space they pay for and if they are unable to remain within the boundary defined by the size of the seat, as many additional seats as necessary must be purchased by that customer until these requirements are met.

That's a bit difficult. Is a passenger really paying for a seat or rather for a passage from A to B? While I don't oppose to the aforementioned One-Seat-Rule, said rule was obviously inexistent, and the "AF show" was indeed pretty poor.

And this: "He was then told that since the flight was full, he'd have to pay for the seat next to him to ensure some breathing space."
Does that actually make sense? The flight was full, but he was forced to buy another seat... I thought the flight was full?
I support the right to arm bears
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:28 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Shall tall people be forced to pay extra?

Tall people would only have to pay extra if they encroach into another person's paid for space. If they can stand being scrunched up, that's up to them.
What the...?
 
Alessandro
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:03 am



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 11):
Tall people would only have to pay extra if they encroach into another person's paid for space. If they can stand being scrunched up, that's up to them.

If a tall person gets into the aisle with his/her legs should they be forced to buy another seat?
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davescj
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:17 am



Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 3):
While I agree that AF was right to charge him for an extra seat, it IMO should have been done a bit differently. If the article was accurate, then he should not have been measure and stuff in front of other passengers, a 'pulling over' to the side and a chat would have been how I would have liked it to be handled if I was fat.

I agree......AF was totally inappropriate in the way they handled the situation. IF there is a concern about weight/size/etc, it should never be done in a public manner.

Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
If racial profiling is immoral, how immoral is judging someone by their size?

Agreed, if the question is judging. If the question is weight EXCLUSIVELY as to the seat, contract of carriage, I would look at it differently.

Quoting Below (Reply 5):
I do not know about AF, but a number of airlines have provisions for making you buy a second seat.

This is true on several US flag carriers -- usually found in the Contract of Carriage. From the ones I've read, usually a set weight limit or when a person can't sit in a seat w/o the arm rests down (or similar language). If a pair of seats if open, I've seen gate agents give them the two seats w/o charge -- again depending on how full the flight is.

Dave
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milan320
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:18 am

I would extend this porposed policy of paying for an extra seat if one is larger than the norm and encroaching on personal space to carry-on luggage. Just as I deserve some comfort when I pay a lot for a seat, I would like the same privilege for being able to store my normal carry-on in the overhead compartment easily and not trying to jam it in there thanks to all those a**holes who have to bring the kitchen sink with them onboard. Why should I have to put my little rucksuck in front of me and not be able to stretchy legs due to the fact that someone needs to bring their 2 laptops, portable DVD player and god knows what else ...

/Milan320
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JoeCanuck
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:26 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
If a tall person gets into the aisle with his/her legs should they be forced to buy another seat?

Yes. You pay for the space of one seat. Due to practical constraints, not every body shape can be accommodated by an airline. That's impossible. What you have to default to, though, are those who do fit into those spaces.

When someone encroaches on your space, you are not getting what you have paid for. When someone encroaches on public space, safety is compromised.

You are entitled to what YOU have paid for. You are not entitled to what someone else has paid for.
What the...?
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:42 am

The question no one asked yet is, how he got from Paris to Delhi without having the same problem. The answer might be, that this flight was not full.
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Alessandro
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:59 am



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
If a tall person gets into the aisle with his/her legs should they be forced to buy another seat?

Yes. You pay for the space of one seat. Due to practical constraints, not every body shape can be accommodated by an airline. That's impossible. What you have to default to, though, are those who do fit into those spaces.

When someone encroaches on your space, you are not getting what you have paid for. When someone encroaches on public space, safety is compromised.

You are entitled to what YOU have paid for. You are not entitled to what someone else has paid for.

Exactly my opinion as well, I had this discussion before on a Swedish travelling site and majority of those youngster
said, fat people should pay extra, tall people shouldn´t, it´s not your fault if you´re tall. Which I think is completely wrong.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:35 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
it´s not your fault if you´re tall.

True, but it is your fault if your height restricts someone else's use of their space. Nobody is forcing anybody to fly. Passengers have the rights of consumers in a transaction to actually get what they pay for.

Many people are fat for medical reasons as valid as those which make a person tall. Does that mean they should be allowed into your space? Of course not.

The physical space part is easy. Where it gets difficult is when the encroachment is by sound or scent. What if you're trapped beside a person with very strong and offensive body odour? Or a perfume you are allergic to...or even just really hate? And, of course, we can't forget about screaming baby syndrome.

Similar warnings to the ones I suggested earlier would be a good start. When you buy your ticket, from any agency, in person or online, it should be made very clear that proper personal hygiene is a prerequisite to flying on a commercial airliner. The problem is that it is very subjective and in reality, and it seems is less of an issue and much more difficult to enforce.
What the...?
 
OHLHD
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:08 pm

The way they measured him was a bad thing but I do believe AF did everything right by forcing him to buy a second seat.
 
halls120
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:18 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
Other than that get off you high horse and show some sensitivity.

How about you try sitting in 3/4 of a Y class seat for 6 hours because your seatmate is so obese that he can't put the armrests down, and see how sensitive you are?

Quoting Below (Reply 5):
Sorry, I have to join in the general sentiment: I have been seated next to obese passengers in coach, and I should ask for compensation!

Good point. When I buy a ticket, I expect a full seat.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Well, there´s a point, if he´s 2,3meter tall, would it be the same?
Shall tall people be forced to pay extra?

Only if they infringe on other seats.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 19):
The way they measured him was a bad thing but I do believe AF did everything right by forcing him to buy a second seat.

I agree that their methods leave a bit to be desired, but they were right to require him to pay for two seats if he cannot fit into one.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ltbewr
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:41 pm

I tend to agree that AF handled this situation in an unprofessional and customer unfriendly way, prompting the compensation for damages. Perhaps what should have been done is to ask the person of size to go on to the a/c separately before the rest of the pax to see if they could fit in the seat and if a problem to discreetly discuss the need to purchase an additional seat to them.
I agree with what others suggested that the EU and IATA should have agreed standards as to when a person 'of large size' has to purchase a 2nd seat to safely and comfortably carry them and to the comfort of other pax. On a full or very full flight, you may lose revenue for that seat if have to give it up to accommodate a person of size without additional fare. To ask for additional fare is not an offense in the USA as to the American with Disabilities Act although embarassing someone like AF did could be.
Southwest Airlines and most in the USA has a good and fair policy for 'persons of size'. They may request the person board the a/c early and try to see if they can fit into the seat with the armrest down. If they cannot, then they will asked to pay for an additional seat and the flight is near full or full or transfer to another flight They will refund the additional fare if it turns out there are enough empty seats.
 
InbarD
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:41 pm

Comeon 175kg, i think thats big enough to buy a second seat. The guy himself should know that he can only fit in one seat. Plus being that obese and not buying a second seat is just selfish if there are people next to you. I certainly wouldn't want somebody's gut flowing all over my arm rest and into my seat. Plus if you ask me, AF did a good thing, giving a guy a wake up call to start loosing some weight! Of course i don't agree with them pulling out measuring tape and measuring his circumferences in front of everyone that is just rude.

[Edited 2007-11-23 05:44:34]
 
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Qatara340
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:44 pm

I was once the guy's weight, (a little under his weight), but I was fat. I lost almost 100 pounds and now I am better. One of the reasons whyI lost the weight for was to avoid situation like this. It is not fair for a person to be squashed by another person simply because of his weight. He should thank Air France, and take this lesson as motivation to go and loose the weight.

Ironinically, what made me loose weight, is that the doctor in the airport refused to give me nose drops saying that I have blood pressure and on the verge of diabetes. Next day, I was wearing a tennis shoes, and jogging an hour daily with a strict diet!
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PavlovsDog
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:53 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
If racial profiling is immoral, how immoral is judging someone by their size?

For one thing there's a differnce between what is moral and what is legal. Air France clearly did not have the law on their side.

A person's race is beyond their control. A person's weight is, in most cases, a personal choice based on action and a conciencious choice.

Weight is also a safety issue. If everyone on a flight were obese the payload estimates could go very wrong with fatal consequences. Just as passengers have to pay for excess baggage, those who occupy two seats should have to pay for that use. It's like anybody can bring 100 kg excess baggage without paying for it.
 
B6MoneyGuyJFK
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:53 pm

I'm a big guy. Not so big as to need an extension, but certainly need most of the seat-belt. I'm thinking to myself, how would I feel in that guys place... Really embarrassed is the what keeps going thru my mind. I think this guy was a paying customer, and from that perspective he deserved some respect and tact. From what the article says, there was neither. OK, so hes a "person of size". Pull him to the side, and explain that for his comfort and for the comfort of those around him, he would be required to book an additional seat.. Thats vastly different from being ridiculed and measured in front of everyone else. Oddly enough, I DON'T think the airline should have refunded the cost of the seat. It was needed. But something for the shoddy treatment is in order..
Several years ago my other half's father and his wife were planning a trip to Tel-Aviv. They are very large people, and were a bit put off by the cost of business class. At my suggestion they purchased 3 economy seats for two people. In the end they were upgraded, but had they not been, they would have been infinitely more comfortable spread out in a seat and a half each..
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Francoflier
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:08 pm

I don't understand some people...

Why is he mad at AF for charging him twice?
He doesn't seem to bother paying twice for food...

Fat joke five!  highfive 

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Analog
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:54 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
If racial profiling is immoral, how immoral is judging someone by their size?

While genetics may influence weight, it does not determine it. Equating a characteristic like weight with race, thereby implying that nondiscrimination standards should apply, is a dangerous game. What should be done about people who are not of sound mind, perhaps acting violently? Many mental conditions are influenced by genetics, yet would you force an airline to seat a person acting violently?

It's one thing to ban discrimination for characteristics that have no effect on other customers, but the line has to be drawn when a characteristic negatively affects others.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:50 pm

With AF's current cabin changes everybody over 175 cm of height and 75 kg of weight will have to buy two Y seats anyway so what? Big grin  duck 
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abrelosojos
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:59 pm



Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 3):
While I agree that AF was rioght to charge him for an extra seat, it IMO should have been done a bit differently. If the article was accurate, then he should not have been measure and stuff in front of other passengers, a 'pulling over' to the side and a chat would have been how I would have liked it to be handled if I was fat.



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Good on AF for charging, not good in the way they went about it.

= Great responses. I mean, a measuring tape in front of people ... too much.

Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
If racial profiling is immoral, how immoral is judging someone by their size?

To B747-4U3 I ask would you use a racial euphemism (like the N word) to describe anyone? Then why “lardos”?



Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 24):
A person's race is beyond their control. A person's weight is, in most cases, a personal choice based on action and a conciencious choice.

I think ELAL 744, PavlovsDog hit the perfect answer. I would consider it blasphemous to equate the same. In most circumstances (given, we dont know this one ... A.Net anti-flaming disclaimer), a person can be motivated to controla and take care of their body. A person born black, brown, or white cannot control the skin colour ... look what happened to Michael Jackson when he tried ... and he had the best docs in town!

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:02 pm

I think I have to inform you better than the journalists do about this incident, as one of my friend was on duty on board this flight as a Chief Purser :

This passengers was forced by the ground staff to pay for a second seat as the flight was full, and he could not obviously fit in a single Y seat.
He was not really charged twice the price of his fare, as the "second" seat was charged at the minimum Y fare.
Moreover, he travelled in BUSINESS CLASS as he was upgraded on board by the Crew to be able to travel in a better comfort and with his friend.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:57 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
I am upset with your replies. If any airline makes it policy to make obese passengers buy extra seats, then so be it. But since there is no said policy, AF should have been fined and who ever gave the order to humiliate the passenger fired.

They sold him one seat...that's in their policy. He physically can't fulfil his part of the contract of carriage...they don't need a separate policy for this.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Well, there´s a point, if he´s 2,3meter tall, would it be the same?
Shall tall people be forced to pay extra?

Of course not...up to at least a height of 7'0", you don't go outside the boundaries of the seat you paid for. That's the crucial issue.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
If a tall person gets into the aisle with his/her legs should they be forced to buy another seat?

If their legs are in the aisle, how would buying another seat help?

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
Exactly my opinion as well, I had this discussion before on a Swedish travelling site and majority of those youngster
said, fat people should pay extra, tall people shouldn´t, it´s not your fault if you´re tall. Which I think is completely wrong.

They're right about the result, but wrong about the reason. It's not because people can control weight but not height, it's that weight will cause you to require more space that your ticket covers...height doesn't have the same problem.

Tom.
 
mika
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:19 pm



Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 2):
It is this lardos fault that he is so fat, he must therefore accept the consequences of his actions, and except that as a consequence of being so disgustingly large he must stump up for two seats for the benefit and comfort of his fellow passengers.

It's not nessescarilly his fault that he's overweight, there are illnesses as well as certain types of medications that make you swell like a baloon.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:32 pm

JGPH1A, 43, described himself as "deeply humiliated" when airline staff intercepted him at New Delhi airport as he was returning from holiday in August 2005, and deployed "wrapping tape" to measure his circumference in front of other passengers.

 duck 
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BlueSkys
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RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:48 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
I am upset with your replies. If any airline makes it policy to make obese passengers buy extra seats, then so be it. But since there is no said policy, AF should have been fined and who ever gave the order to humiliate the passenger fired.

Policy or no policy, if his body is rolling into my seat that I paid full fare for than I should be compensated or the large passenger or me should be moved.. If you are 175KG you cannot fit into a coach seat.... And it is not the luck of the draw who you sit next to, if someone is overweight than that is fine, but if they are grotesquely overweight and they are pouring into your seat it is disgusting.

I have had it happen to me one time and not only was half of the fat man in my seat, but his smell and perspiration were appalling. This was going to be a 9 hour flight and there was no way i was going to suffer for that long. I refused to sit down unless I was moved or the large gentleman next to me moved. I felt bad for putting him in the spotlight like that but otherwise who would feel bad for me being crushed and sweat on for 9 hours? There was no seats in coach and they were to move me to business class, I offered the gentleman to go up to business instead.

There needs not be a written law or policy about this! It is very simple, If you take up more than one seat, then you must pay for more than one seat. I do not see what the confusion is at all about.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Of course not...up to at least a height of 7'0", you don't go outside the boundaries of the seat you paid for. That's the crucial issue.

But on most airlines, legroom in Y would really suck...

I think that airlines should assign/offer exit row seats for very tall people free of charge.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
elcableguy77
Posts: 466
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:25 pm

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:00 pm

Being a cabin crew member, I can agree with the result AF was after, but certainly not the way they went about it. It seems unfortunate that this fellow had to deal with some gate agents that were lacking tact.
Whether or not he has any control over his weight is not the issue. What is the issue is the fact that he was trying to fit into one Y seat, when I'm sure he knew full well that he couldn't. I don't want to say he was trying to provoke an incident, but it does give that impression.
I have had a few larger passengers on my planes, and, given that they are CRJs, are VERY sensitive to weight and balance. In some cases, where I have had a couple that are both large and sitting next to each other, in my count, I count them as three for W&B purposes, and I have had a passenger that purchased two seats so as to give himself some comfort, and I counted him as two. In that case, the FO was confused when I told him that, for W&B, we had 40, but there were 39 pax on board. Once I explained the larger passenger, he understood.
Former ZW F/A | "Wisconsin 72A, contact departure, see ya."
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:20 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Shall tall people be forced to pay extra?

only on the A380 lower deck where they would have to open the ceiling to make room for his head, losing one seat upstairs...

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 26):
He doesn't seem to bother paying twice for food...

He probably does, and only eats for the cheapest at McDonald's!
When I doubt... go running!
 
PiedmontINT
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:50 pm



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 34):
There was no seats in coach and they were to move me to business class, I offered the gentleman to go up to business instead.

Now that is a classy move.. Im not so sure many people would do something like that in today's society. I could see a pax asking if another Y seat was available and if not then ask for (or demand with some people) a F/J seat for themselves..
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:04 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):

If racial profiling is immoral, how immoral is judging someone by their size?

Sitting next to someone with a different skin color does not affect anyone's seat. Sitting next to someone who is encroaching into your seat affects the person who paid for their seat.

I do agree with you to an extent, though. Since AF didn't have a policy, they shouldn't have invented one on the spot. They should create a policy for situations like this. Measuring someone is a stupid and impractical idea.
 
davescj
Posts: 1138
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 38):
Now that is a classy move..

 checkmark 

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 39):
Since AF didn't have a policy, they shouldn't have invented one on the spot.

Surely there is something in the contract of carriage?

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:28 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:27 pm

Good. I'm still pissed about the... rotund man that globbed over the armrest into my seat space, squishing me against the window eight years ago on KLM/NW from DEL to AMS. Terrible.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:49 pm



Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 4):
I am upset with your replies.

A breath before posting helps me sometimes. Would you be upset with half of your seat gone for 9 hours?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Good on AF for charging, not good in the way they went about it.

That is probably the truth of the whole matter.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
Every passenger is entitled to the seat space they pay for and any incursion is subject to compensation. Further, a passenger is entitled to ONLY the seat space they pay for and if they are unable to remain within the boundary defined by the size of the seat, as many additional seats as necessary must be purchased by that customer until these requirements are met.

I vote for that policy.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Well, there´s a point, if he´s 2,3meter tall, would it be the same?
Shall tall people be forced to pay extra?

Only if they block my space in the overhead bin.

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 24):
A person's race is beyond their control. A person's weight is, in most cases, a personal choice based on action and a conciencious choice.

And so, they should be responsible for added cost incurred in life due to that choice.

Quoting Weight is also a safety issue. If everyone on a flight were obese the payload estimates could go very wrong with fatal consequences. Just as passengers have to pay for excess baggage, those who occupy two seats should have to pay for that use. It's like anybody can bring 100 kg excess baggage without paying for it.[/quote]

Exactly!

[quote=Francoflier
(Reply 26):
Why is he mad at AF for charging him twice?
He doesn't seem to bother paying twice for food...

Fat joke five!   

Oooh, you'll smoke a turd in hell for that one.  rotfl  I'll be the guy on the bench across from you.

Quoting Mika (Reply 32):
It's not nessescarilly his fault that he's overweight, there are illnesses as well as certain types of medications that make you swell like a baloon.

Even in that case, should other PAX be made uncomfortable?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:56 pm



Quoting A342 (Reply 35):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Of course not...up to at least a height of 7'0", you don't go outside the boundaries of the seat you paid for. That's the crucial issue.

But on most airlines, legroom in Y would really suck...

I think that airlines should assign/offer exit row seats for very tall people free of charge.

Well, the legroom in Y really sucks on most airlines. I'm just used to it. I'm not sure about giving exit row to tall people free of charge...although it's not the passengers fault they're tall, it's not the airline's fault either. A tall passenger always has the option to buy a business class seat for legroom, just as an overweight passenger has the option to buy a second seat for width.

If I go flying, I'm the one choosing to fly. I know what the product on offer is and I chose to pay for it, lousy service and tiny legroom and all. It's not like the airline is forcing me to fly with them.

Tom.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:12 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 43):
Well, the legroom in Y really sucks on most airlines.

 checkmark  Agreed.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 43):
A tall passenger always has the option to buy a business class seat for legroom, just as an overweight passenger has the option to buy a second seat for width.

A fat pax can also chose to fly business class, but it's much more expensive. My point is: A tall passenger should be given the opportunity to get a decent seat without paying much more than a normal height person. Not everybody can afford biz. Here's where the exit row comes handy. (Yeah, I know, on some aircraft there is no exit row.)

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 43):
It's not like the airline is forcing me to fly with them.

True, but IMO they should make it more pleasant. After all, I'm the paying customer.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Stickers
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:10 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:55 pm

I havent read all the posts, so if this has been said then i apologise.

I was just wondering about safety issues and a passsenger that large being able to get through the smaller emergency exit doors. Do airlines locate extra large passengers near the fron or the back in order to ensure a speedy exit for them and all other passengers in an emergency?
 
ncelhr
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:34 pm

The gentleman was interviewed on French TV. He mentioned that he was pleased with the outcome of the court, and would now push the government to make it mandatory for French airlines to have at least 1 or 2 seats per aircraft that could be widened with a movable armrest so as to accomodate large passengers. Yeah right...

I'd have to think what would happen to the person in the seat next to him that would suddenly see its width narrowed...
 boxedin 
 
dz09
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:20 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:38 pm



Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 46):
He mentioned that he was pleased with the outcome of the court, and would now push the government to make it mandatory for French airlines to have at least 1 or 2 seats per aircraft that could be widened with a movable armrest so as to accomodate large passengers. Yeah right...

These seats do exist. I sat in one 2 days ago on an AF flight (A320). I tried lifting the armrest but couldn't, it moved sideways instead.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1373
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:52 pm



Quoting Dz09 (Reply 47):
These seats do exist. I sat in one 2 days ago on an AF flight (A320). I tried lifting the armrest but couldn't, it moved sideways instead.

this is not in the objective to make more space for a "fat pax" travelling in Y. In AF (as well as for a lot of other european airlines), European C class consists in blocking the middle seat with a tablet pulled down from the seat and by moving the armrests to enlarge the window and aisle seats. In function of the route (sale of a C class or not) and in function of the actual numbers of C and Y pax checked-in on a particular flight, they can modulate the number of C and Y rows. So the enlarged seat is a C-class seat, not an Y one.
 
dz09
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:20 am

RE: AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:57 pm



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 48):
So the enlarged seat is a C-class seat, not an Y one.

This was a Y-class seat.

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