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mariner
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UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:03 am

I may be behind the times, but it is reported that the UK and Singapore have signed a "landmark agreement" which is effective Open Skies:

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...eds/afx/2007/11/21/afx4362951.html

According to at least one newspaper, this clears the way for SQ to fly trans-Atlantic from LHR, but the airline is presently hampered by lack of slots:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma...07/11/24/et-singapore-news-124.xml

They are hinting that SQ may even fly the A380 across the pond.

Perhaps the UK members know more? Or have I been alseep while all this was going on?  Smile

mariner
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:21 am

No you haven't been asleep!

Yes, this revolutionary Open Skies deal was announced earlier this month and has been signed by the wonderful Ruth Kelly of the UK and the Ministry of Transport for Singapore.

This allows total freedom in the Skies for carriers of the United Kingdom and Singapore. It was also an unexpected deal out of the blue.

The deal allows unlimited flights between the UK and SIN. It also allows cabotage for carriers of Singapore. It allows the airlines of the two countries to base their aircraft in the other country and operate flights between UK/SIN and a third country without having to originate from or return to the country of nationality.

With this, Singapore Airlines can operate transatlantic ex-UK as it has Open Skies with the USA already.

Singapore Airlines has been waiting for transatlantic rights for over 20 years.

I commend the Governments of the United Kingdom and Singapore for their anti-protectionist approach and for putting the airline industry and consumers first. Hopefully, Singapore Airlines will buy some slots so that travellers can fly between the UK and the USA in greater comfort and luxury.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
LHRBlueSkies
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:28 am

It also allows for carriers from both countries to operate domestic flights at the opposite end, so SQ could fly SIN-LHR-MME for example. Could be interesting...
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
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mariner
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:58 am



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
The deal allows unlimited flights between the UK and SIN. It also allows cabotage for carriers of Singapore.

Cabotage? Wow. But I guess it would be difficult for UK carriers to have cabotage at Singapore of course.  Smile

Very good news, thanks for that.

mariner
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PhilSquares
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:00 am



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
With this, Singapore Airlines can operate transatlantic ex-UK as it has Open Skies with the USA already.

It recently signed an agreement with Canada also. This agreement with the UK was announced about 3 months ago.
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DLPMMM
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:57 am



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
Singapore Airlines has been waiting for transatlantic rights for over 20 years.

I thought SQ was already flying transatlantic from FRA to NYC. Was I dreaming?

I doubt the cabotage aspect will be used by either country's airlines.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:01 pm

Apologies, to clarify, Singapore Airlines has been waiting for transatlantic rights between the United Kingom and the United States of America for over 20 years.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
LHRBlueSkies
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:04 pm



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 6):
Singapore Airlines has been waiting for transatlantic rights between the United Kingom and the United States of America for over 20 years.

Yup, true. I also thought that they had slots for a 4th flight into/ex-LHR for ages, just never exercised them? I thought they were around 1200 arrival, 1530 departure, but I could be wrong...
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
David_itl
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:26 pm



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 6):
Singapore Airlines has been waiting for transatlantic rights between the United Kingom and the United States of America for over 20 years

As I remember they were offered them out of MAN years ago but turned them down - it's LHR-JFK they want.
 
LHRBlueSkies
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:34 pm



Quoting David_itl (Reply 8):
it's LHR-JFK they want.

Maybe now, given semi-open-skies, they will follow BD and go for different options?
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
MH001
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Well...you can say that you laud Singapore and UK for their anti-protectionism laws.

How about Malaysia? Just because UK or even France and Australia are not interested in the Malaysian market it does not mean that Malaysia Airlines is not allowed to increase capacity into London or operate transatlantic flights. I know that MH was offered MAN-JFK but wanted the premium LHR-JFK traffic. Also MH has been having financial difficulties so they have sold their LHR slots to AI.

France has only just recently allowed MH to operated daily KUL-CDG flights. MH has been lobbying for years but France has always been resistant towards it. And also from the rumour mill, MH is not welcomed into SkyTeam by AF who are eyeing TG. This is despite KL's long term partnership with MH. If AF does not want to serve KUL, let MH do it instead - apparently the loads are pretty good on their CDG-KUL flights.

So - anti protectionism only works when there is benefit for UK/France/USA ... Doesn't work for all countries which will only lose out in the long term.
 
MH001
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:55 pm

just to add - i realise the malaysian government has been protective towards MH but these two specific examples (UK and france) are where the Malaysians are keen to expand bilateral services.
 
LHRBlueSkies
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:39 pm



Quoting MH001 (Reply 11):
are where the Malaysians are keen to expand bilateral services.

Tell you what, get the Malaysian government to open up and let anyone fly anywhere, and see if others reciprocate!!

All governments want to protect their own, period.
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
MH001
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:31 pm

okay - there are examples of routes where the government has been protecting MH such as the KUL-SIN route.

however, MH had been trying to increase flights to LHR for a long time. They had to fight to take over BA's rights which they were reluctant to give up once they withdrew from KUL. MH only managed to get a second daily flight to LHR after it signed a 10 year codeshare deal with VS and used their rights.

Why so difficult? If airlines like BA and AF can't make KUL work, why stop others from trying?

That's just double standards.

And LHRblueskies - tell me when did MH stop BA or QF operating more flights to KUL? they pulled out on their own accord. Prove me wrong...
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
the wonderful Ruth Kelly of the UK

That's the first time I've heard her described like that...!

Interesting news by SQ though, perhaps see service routing to New York through MAN in future to avoid the slot constraints at LHR?


Dan Smile
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mariner
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:13 am

It raises a question,though.

When British Airways ordered the A380, most people here didn't think they would fly it LHR-NYC, believing frequency was needed more on those trans-Atlantic flights.

But - if SQ does start flying, say, LHR-JFK with the A380, they might attract a fair amount of premium pax.

Will British need to put the A380 on the route to retain those pax?

mariner
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PlymSpotter
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:37 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Will British need to put the A380 on the route to retain those pax?

I think it depends. A fair amount of pax will wish to 'try out' the A380, just to have the bragging rights for having flown it, but, as far as most business travellers are concerned a single flight by SQ is not going to be terribly useful (unless marketed/codeshared with other alliance partners such as UA) compared to the multiple frequencies offered by BA.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Viscount724
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:57 am



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
With this, Singapore Airlines can operate transatlantic ex-UK as it has Open Skies with the USA already.

It recently signed an agreement with Canada also. This agreement with the UK was announced about 3 months ago.

But, as I understand it, the new Canada-Singapore agreement is far from Open Skies.
 
kaitak
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:03 am

It would be good to see SQ flying t/a from LHR, but getting slots at LHR will be a nightmare; for the times they would need, the cost would be massive. I'm guessing SQ would probably want to operate to the US either as a continuation of the SQ 322 (arriving LHR from SIN at 5.30, departing at 7am?) or the SQ 316 (arriving LHR 3pm, departing c. 1600-1630). The return section of this flight could be timed so as to meet the departure time of 11am from LHR to SIN, i.e:

SIN-LHR 0900-1500
LHR-JFK 1630-1910

JFK-LHR 2220-0950
LHR-SIN 1100-0730

The scheduling "works", but of course, the difficulty would be getting a slot for an arrival at that time. Good luck, SIA!
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:59 am

Whatever happened to the Cathay Pacific effort for LHR-JFK? Four years ago, around this time (Nov 2003), there was a new UK/HK air service agreement that stipulated VS get HKG-SYD and CX get LHR-JFK (although CX still needed to acquire the slots). VS went ahead with LHR-HKG-SYD, CX obviously went nowhere.

Anyone know why CX didn't/couldn't go ahead?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):

I thought SQ was already flying transatlantic from FRA to NYC. Was I dreaming?

SQ have flown SIA25/26 SIN-FRA-JFK-FRA-SIN for a while now.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 18):
The scheduling "works", but of course, the difficulty would be getting a slot for an arrival at that time. Good luck, SIA!

If they're in it for the long term, I suppose they wouldn't have a problem opening the chequebook...
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
col
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:20 pm

Forget LHR, they should fly a 744 to MAN and onto JFK. BA then have an excuse to pull the 767 out of MAN and back south. BMI could also feed into MAN from the regions. Another route could see the existing 772 flight go to IAD, linking into UA. A third service could cover BOS (better still BDL). This could get away from having to transit at LHR for those poor souls who want to go to UK regions but don't want to stop in London, plus it gives me more options over here Big grin

MAN would need to improve its connections and quality, as it is a little topsy turvey at present.
 
BCA2005
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:53 pm



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 18):
SIN-LHR 0900-1500
LHR-JFK 1630-1910

JFK-LHR 2220-0950
LHR-SIN 1100-0730

The scheduling "works", but of course, the difficulty would be getting a slot for an arrival at that time. Good luck, SIA!

It doesn't really work, as it would mean that the aircraft that arrives from SIN at 0500 would have to sit on the ground at LHR until around 1800.
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:12 pm

SQ Owns 49% of VS.

Given SQ's desire to shed itself of VS.. they could retain some VS slots as part of any sale.

That would also give some SQ competition for the bearded wonder.

Given full open skies SQ doesnt need VS at all.
SQ has star alliance feed and an excellant product.. good connections with UA and BD from LHR and within the US.

As I keep saying remember to quote me but VS wont exist in 2012.. no partner, no feed, no alliance and losing money.. open skies and even competition from your reluctant co-owner... expect one of 2 things..

No VS, or a VS wholly owned 100% by another airline. (BD, LH all potential owners).
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:13 pm



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 19):
Whatever happened to the Cathay Pacific effort for LHR-JFK? Four years ago, around this time (Nov 2003), there was a new UK/HK air service agreement that stipulated VS get HKG-SYD and CX get LHR-JFK (although CX still needed to acquire the slots). VS went ahead with LHR-HKG-SYD, CX obviously went nowhere.

This CX flight is actually BA's 8 & 9th daily LHR- JFK pairs... CX decieded to codeshare with BA.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
PhilSquares
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RE: UK/Singapore Sign "Open Skies"?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:10 am



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 18):
SIN-LHR 0900-1500
LHR-JFK 1630-1910

JFK-LHR 2220-0950
LHR-SIN 1100-0730

Sorry, but that wouldn't work. SQ 308, the inbound you refer to only goes back as SQ 321 in the evening. It doesn't have enough of time to do the LHR-JFK-LHR turn as you suggest.
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