JAM747
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Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:00 pm

Could the 767 be the next 'hot' used aircraft if its pass. version production ceases and after the 787 and A350 is in full service? Could it be still highly desired like the 757 because , the cost of the new planes are too high or because there is no direct replacement for its size except the A330? I know that the 787 is supposed to be replacing the 767 but the 787 is bigger and even if some airlines want the 787 they might have to wait a while before they actually can get production. Has anyone ordered new 767 lately?
 
A342
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:10 pm

At least the 763ER is very popular on the used aircraft market.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
acelanzarote
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:12 pm

how many 767's are parked up in the world out of use? Think they are a nice
plane personally so hopefully will last for a while yet...
from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
 
ktachiya
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:35 pm



Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
the cost of the new planes are too high or because there is no direct replacement for its size except the A330?

Well pax wise maybe. But like AC, so many of their B767's are already 15+ years old. An aircraft usually flies for 20-23 years so if they convert a 15+ year old B767 into another pax aircraft, it would only last about 5 years. Cargo wise, we know the penalty that the semi-widebody has. It doesn't fit the ideal containers that many cargo airlines are flying these days. So I don't think so many would be converted into freighters like the MD-11.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
dutchjet
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:42 pm

No doubt, the 767 will continue to be a ""hot"" aircraft in the second hand market for years and years to come....especially the 763ER which, for many carriers, is an excellent combination of capacity, range, versatility and operating economics. As the prices for the 763ERs eventually soften, demand will probably become even stronger......from charter carriers to start up airlines to existing airlines adding longer haul routes to some existing operators.

Additionally, we will see 767s converted to cargo aircraft which will also support the market.

Two things to consider:

1. The nearest competitor to the 767 is the A332, which is a bigger airplane than the 767.......replacing 767s (especially 762s) with A332s does not always work out that well if a route cannot handle the additional capacity; thus, many airlines will continue to have a need for the 767. Also, Airbus has sold a huge number of A330s in recent times, making deliveries of new A330s years away....and second hand A330s are rarely available. Thus, the 767 will continue to be popular.

2. Even the smallest members of the 787 and A350 families are bigger airplanes than the 763ER.....thus, one could argue that the 767 (like the 757) is not being directly replaced and thus will continue to have a role in the fleets of airlines worldwide for years to come. And, 787 or A350 deliveries are years and years away, and the financial aspects of acquiring a used 767 are very different than the cost of new aircraft.

Long story short----airlines that need a medium capacity longer haul airliner will continue to fly, acquire and utilize the 767 for years and years to come, thus making the 767 an extremely popular airplane on the second hand market. Just like the 757, airlines have little interest in ordering new build examples of the 767 at this late date in the airliner's life cycle (for financial and other reasons) but airlines will strongly support the 767 in the second hand market (due to lower pricing, leasing opportunities, and the like.)
 
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Stitch
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:45 pm



Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
Could the 767 be the next 'hot' used aircraft if its pass. version production ceases and after the 787 and A350 is in full service?

I haven't checked the latest figures, but as of April values for 767-200ERs and 767-300ERs were stable while values for the 767-400ER were weakening. When "graded" on an A through F scale, trending values for the 762ER were a C-, for the 763ER were a C+ and for the 764ER were a D++.

Current 767-300ER aircraft rental rates are considered to be as high as they are likely to go. 767-200ER rental rates have seen a very slight improvement (likely due to the new TATL all-premium carriers) and 767-400ER rentals are weakening.

As such, the 767 is not likely to be a "hot" aircraft in the years ahead based on the various aircraft valuation firms data.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:23 pm

So whats the latest news about the B767 line, is it open or shut?
I think the B757 is more of a special plane for hot´n high conditions than the B767.
How many B767s are still in traffic?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:30 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
So whats the latest news about the B767 line, is it open or shut?

Open and they are increasing the production rate.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
How many B767s are still in traffic?

There are 54 unfilled orders, which is about four year's backlog at the planned new rate.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:33 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
So whats the latest news about the B767 line, is it open or shut?

Open.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
I think the B757 is more of a special plane for hot´n high conditions than the B767

While the 752 does have remarkable runway performance and handles hot and high missions very well, the strong point of the 757 is that its one of the most versatile and economical airplane around; very few airliners can handle missions from 250 to 4000 miles and make money on those flights.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
How many B767s are still in traffic?

In excess of 800 (I think)......just short of 1000 767s have been ordered by carriers worldwide.
 
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HA_DC9
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:59 pm



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
.just short of 1000 767s have been ordered by carriers worldwide.

I believe the UPS order earlier this year pushed the count above 1000 orders.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
Has anyone ordered new 767 lately?

JL recently confimed 6 767-300ERs.

Word has it Skyservice and ZOOM are interested in AC's 767s when they're replaced by 787s.

[Edited 2007-11-24 11:19:09]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Rj111
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:50 pm

The problem with it is that it can't handle LD-3 containers. But it's very very light weight and has an excellent range. So probably will be quite popular.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:29 pm

It will continue to see MUCH success as a freighter for a very long time. ABX Air is agressively seeking new 762s to expand. However, they tend to cherry-pick their aircraft, especially after getting burned by the ex-TW 767s. But, I see them, as well as other cargo carriers snatching up any good condition 762s that come available in the near future.
Good goes around!
 
Lokey123
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:42 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
I haven't checked the latest figures, but as of April values for 767-200ERs and 767-300ERs were stable while values for the 767-400ER were weakening. When "graded" on an A through F scale, trending values for the 762ER were a C-, for the 763ER were a C+ and for the 764ER were a D++.

Did you get that info from Aircraft Value News?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:10 pm



Quoting Lokey123 (Reply 13):
Did you get that info from Aircraft Value News?

Yes. My local library subscribes to them so I can access their database.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:22 pm

I think the 767 will not become a second hand hotseller once sufficient numbers of 787 and later A350s become available. It is now very popular because the lower segment of the widebody market is rather empty. The 757 on the other hand is so popular because it still can efficiently do things (serving thin medium haul routes) that no other type can do like that. So two different reasons. It is far more likely that the A330 will become the second hand hot seller because it is more efficient than the B763 and thus the 767 will be the first airframe to leave the market once sufficent supply of new models become available ... my two cents.
 
RIX
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:45 pm

Quite interesting, as 767 looks to be very popular... Does it mean there is a chance to see 767NG ("748-ized" or whatever else) in future, when those flying today are too old, while the demand is still there? If 748, squeezed in a relatively small market between 773/35A and 380, still finds a niche that justifies the development, then chances of 767 to get a new life don't look so unlikely. Sounds surprisingly unexpected as it's already "twice outdated" (by 330, which, in turn, is "outdated" by 787), but, indeed, with no direct replacement and demand for it just as it is...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:15 am



Quoting RIX (Reply 16):
Does it mean there is a chance to see 767NG ("748-ized" or whatever else) in future, when those flying today are too old, while the demand is still there?

When Boeing was first shopping the 7E7 to airlines, they were roughly the same capacity as the 767-300ER and 767-400ER. However, airlines expressed a desire for planes closer to the A330-200/767-400ER and A330-300/A340-300.

So I am inclined to believe their would be little demand for such a plane.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
So whats the latest news about the B767 line, is it open or shut?

Open and they are increasing the production rate.

And it could remain in production for many years if the USAF selects the KC-767 over the KC-30 (based on the A330-200) to replace their KC-135 tanker fleet.
 
VC10er
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:50 am

If the 767 is so doomed to be a dinosour why did UA decide to retrofit all its 767 fleet with new interiors?
And why did VARIG select them to fill out their fleet until new metal arrives?
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
JAM747
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:50 am



Quoting RIX (Reply 16):
If 748, squeezed in a relatively small market between 773/35A and 380, still finds a niche that justifies the development, then chances of 767 to get a new life don't look so unlikely. Sounds surprisingly unexpected as it's already "twice outdated" (by 330, which, in turn, is "outdated" by 787), but, indeed, with no direct replacement and demand for it just as it is...

I read a discussion once in the military aviation forum that some modifications might be done to the 767 for the tanker bid such as revisions to the wings avionics and engines. It was mentioned that maybe the passenger version of the plane might still be offered with these tweaks. If this is true then Boeing would have nothing to lose by offering an enhanced 767 pass. version if they get a few hundred sales of tankers. This could fill the gap between the current narrow bodies and the 787/A350.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:27 am



Quoting RIX (Reply 16):
Quite interesting, as 767 looks to be very popular... Does it mean there is a chance to see 767NG ("748-ized" or whatever else) in future, when those flying today are too old, while the demand is still there?

I think the 764 was the 748i of the 767 series and it hasn't done well at all, so far as sales are concerned. And, according to an earlier post in this thread, the 764's resale value isn't that high; demand isn't high for it. The 787 was designed to replace the 767 and world airlines, generally, are waiting to get their hands on it rather than buying new 767s, though there are airlines here and there that still buy small numbers of the plane.

Ultimately, the 767 will go down in history as a very good airliner that served its owners well and was liked by passengers. My two cents worth.  Smile
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
RIX
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:53 am



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 15):
It is far more likely that the A330 will become the second hand hot seller because it is more efficient than the B763

- AFAIK, it is not more efficient. Being larger (plus, LD3) it is in a different class. But now, 787 replaces it directly. While 767 is popular as it is - at least, if all the posts above are true.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
airlines expressed a desire for planes closer to the A330-200/767-400ER and A330-300/A340-300

- to fill a different niche. Again, 767 looks to be on demand as is, not "large and improved" (which is also on demand, but this is another story).

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 21):
I think the 764 was the 748i of the 767 series and it hasn't done well at all

- I think, it was much less of an upgrade than 748 to 744 - but even if not, 764 itself is simply not a good example, as these are 762 and especially 763 that are on demand.

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 20):
This could fill the gap between the current narrow bodies and the 787/A350.

- exactly  Smile. Once again, I'm talking about 767 capacity as is.
 
caljn
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:55 am



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
While the 752 does have remarkable runway performance and handles hot and high missions very well, the strong point of the 757 is that its one of the most versatile and economical airplane around; very few airliners can handle missions from 250 to 4000 miles and make money on those flights.

Gotta love the 752. Just completed EWR-LAX on CO...what a take off!
Then smooth, quiet and rock solid in the air. Too bad they are no longer in production.
I know the 737NG are to replace the 752...on paper only! The flying experience are worlds apart.
 
jetjeanes
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:38 am

There are a boatload of ex ual,s on the market and have been for a while ,,i am not sure who the owner is
i can see for 80 miles
 
CF188A
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:45 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
There are 54 unfilled orders, which is about four year's backlog at the planned new rate.

Can someone explain to me why you would want to invest in a 767 (given present day aircraft design and future design) ? I just do not understand why someone would choose a 20+ year old aircraft brand new , much more efficient aircraft? I am sure there is some type of answer here. A brand new 767 is way up there so that is the only reason why i ask.

Aside, what is the most recent 767 in the world today ... when was it delivered?
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dutchjet
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:47 am



Quoting CF188A (Reply 25):
Can someone explain to me why you would want to invest in a 767 (given present day aircraft design and future design) ? I just do not understand why someone would choose a 20+ year old aircraft brand new , much more efficient aircraft?

Reasons to purchase 767s right now:

1. An airline wants to add to its current fleet of 767s.

2. It will be delivered sooner than an 787 or A350.

3. Boeing is probably offering very sharp deals on 767s at the moment - lower acquisition cost can balance higher operating costs when comparing the 767 with the newer types.

4. The 767 is an existing product; the 787 and A350 are not yet in service and will introduce some very new technologies, some airlines are risk adverse.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 25):
Aside, what is the most recent 767 in the world today ... when was it delivered?

JAL, ANA and LAN have all taken delivery of 767-300ERs during 2007......both passenger and cargo models.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Could The 767 Be The Next 'Hot' Used Aircraft?

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:08 pm



Quoting CF188A (Reply 25):
Aside, what is the most recent 767 in the world today ... when was it delivered?

LA took delivery of a 767-300ER within the last two weeks. Saw her lift-off from PAE. I've seen what I believe is her sister at PAE, so they should be getting another one, shortly.

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