EI321
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Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:23 am



Quote:
European planemaker Airbus believes that German and French governments must help the company which stands to lose billions of euros due to the weak dollar, the newspaper Euro am Sonntag said.

In a summary of a story, due to be published on Sunday, the paper said that the company, part of European aerospace and defence group EADS , especially needed financial support for its long-distance A350 jets.

"Unlike in the case of earlier models, Airbus has so far not taken advantage of any public sector development loans for A350s," the newspaper quoted an Airbus manager as saying.

"Given the further worsening of the dollar exchange rate we cannot afford to do so any longer," he added.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSL2460869120071124

This is not a surprise really!
 
eraugrad02
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:45 am

Maybe this can be an awesome advantage for Boeing to sell some 747-8i's. It suxs for us when we go to Europe because the dollar is worth half of most currency there.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:24 am

No surprise. I understand the need for launch aid to stand up Airbus, but at some point the EU out of western economic cooperation should limit ongoing Airbus support to that similar to what Boeing gets: participation in space and military programs that broadens its aerospace knowledge base and brings in new business. EADS is a fit for that as is and should be able to leverage these programs like Boeing does. The U.S. is trying to do its part on the tanker project, but I think any tanker participation deal for Airbus is dead if A350 lauch aid shows up.

I have some sympathy for Airbus in that now management has seen the light and is trying to walk true and normal, but they are getting little or no support from the governments in tackling the downsizing issue. The overbuilt cost structure was in effect subsidized by the EU governments in strategic pursuit of 60% market share, and now that it needs to be reversed they are telling Airbus that they are on their own.

On the other hand, I think launch aid is inappropriate when Airbus' market share is above its minimum goal of 40%. I understand it's the European way of doing things, but going any further devalues the efficiency of the open market and Boeing's innovations, which is defeats capitalist efficiencies. I think Airbus partnering with Northrup on the tanker deal to normalize the Aerospace process is a solid step. I wish it would go through as the USAF could really use both the 767 (smaller fields, more remotely deployable) and the A330 (larger payload, more multifunctional cargo and personnel capability) tankers. Splitting this enormous contract lays the foundation for normal competition and give Airbus an open market means of pulling itself out of this jam without launch aid.

Seems like a win-win for everybody, but I think the EU folks need to help Airbus on the restructure front and so far, no go. The USAF might not be helping here either as they are making noises about just one kind of tanker, which doens't sound optimal to me.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:35 am

As much as I am a fan of the A330 and 320 families give me a break. Of course they are going to go for subsidies but let the products speak for themselves. I may get flamed for this but like the Canadian shipbuilding industry, compete, find a niche for yourself or go home. A calf will continue to drink mothers milk if that mother or the farmer doesn't make it wean  Smile. If Airbus is an equal to Boeing ( which I happen to believe) then grow up and stop relying on subsidies. It is about time we know that there is a level playing field. Put this before the world trade organization and get it over with. Enough nonsense on both sides. If the 350 subsidy is given then the US should respond by rewarding Boeing with the tanker order for the 767 and make it clear that enough is enough.  stirthepot 
 
Mir
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:44 am



Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 2):
at some point the EU out of western economic cooperation should limit ongoing Airbus support to that similar to what Boeing gets: participation in space and military programs

As well massive government subsidizing on the part of its contractors outside the US. To say that Boeing's products are not heavily subsidized is ridiculous.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
worldrider
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:45 am



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
As much as I am a fan of the A330 and 320 families give me a break. Of course they are going to go for subsidies but let the products speak for themselves. I may get flamed for this but like the Canadian shipbuilding industry, compete, find a niche for yourself or go home. A calf will continue to drink mothers milk if that mother or the farmer doesn't make it wean Smile. If Airbus is an equal to Boeing ( which I happen to believe) then grow up and stop relying on subsidies. It is about time we know that there is a level playing field. Put this before the world trade organization and get it over with. Enough nonsense on both sides. If the 350 subsidy is given then the US should respond by rewarding Boeing with the tanker order for the 767 and make it clear that enough is enough. stirthepot

your statment is ridiculous!!! stop playing blind please, boeing and airbus are playing in the same level except maybe that airbus is not hiding as much? BILLIONs$$$ boeing gets in tax reductions, hiden subsidies and so on. still don't want to see it?

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
As well massive government subsidizing on the part of its contractors outside the US. To say that Boeing's products are not heavily subsidized is ridiculous.

-Mir

would you mind stop see A as the bad guy and B as the good ? Airbus makes GREAT planes and are on the way to be N°1 again!!! and they fully deserve it.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Worldrider (Reply 5):
and they fully deserve it.

Absolutely...the best airliners that the EU government money can build.

[Edited 2007-11-25 04:27:19]
What the...?
 
icna05e
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:29 pm



Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 2):
No surprise

Great post... respects for it!

I think you summarized very well the situation. Every point you raise is very sensible.
Do you mind if I use some of your input as "mine" in an English exam I have this week? I am supposed to sum up then discuss a text extract from a list, which includes a A VS B article (hum... from 2005. this school is right on the edge of fresh news!). Thanks!
 
Joni
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:40 pm



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
Put this before the world trade organization and get it over with. Enough nonsense on both sides.

It already is before the WTO, as are Boeing's subsidies. Expect a decision there within a few years.
 
worldrider
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:44 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Absolutely...the best airliners that the EU government money can build.

not EU government. EADS(Airbus) was founded long time ago by french, german, spanish and uk governments. they are and still are mainly in charge of AIrbus, thus, i really don't see where the matter is, or is it EVIL "to be state controled"?

isn't boeing the american state sword? politics have always been implicated in big business the same way business are FULLY implicated in business..specially when it's about strategic areas like aviation, space, metal, water or gas.
 
worldrider
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:50 pm



Quoting Worldrider (Reply 9):
isn't boeing the american state sword? politics have always been implicated in big business the same way business are FULLY implicated in POLITICS..specially when it's about strategic areas like aviation, space, metal, water or gas.

corrrection..
 
777236ER
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:16 pm

To put this into perspective, the UK government gave Airbus Industrie as it then was a £250 million loan with interest and royalties on each A320 sold. This was based on the idea that AI would sell 500 A320. There are 5616 A320 orders, with the British government getting money each time one rolls out of the door. The A320 has been absolutely fantastic for the British taxpayer.

Bare in mind that the UK government gave £200 million launch aid for the Trent 8104 (for the C-market 777, never flew), and 500, and £250 million for the Trent 600 (for the 747-X and 767-400ERX, never flew) and 900.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
worldrider
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:42 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
To put this into perspective, the UK government gave Airbus Industrie as it then was a £250 million loan with interest and royalties on each A320 sold. This was based on the idea that AI would sell 500 A320. There are 5616 A320 orders, with the British government getting money each time one rolls out of the door. The A320 has been absolutely fantastic for the British taxpayer.

Bare in mind that the UK government gave £200 million launch aid for the Trent 8104 (for the C-market 777, never flew), and 500, and £250 million for the Trent 600 (for the 747-X and 767-400ERX, never flew) and 900.

God Bless Socialism!  airplane   redflag 
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:50 pm

I don't buy it.
,
This is a convenient way of getting aide which would otherwise not be legitimate.

Airbus is in trouble because of discounting, which .occurred before the recent drastic drops in the $.

Just ask the people who know!

The French Unions.

Ruscoe
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:53 pm

I do know the A320 has been a windfall for the British taxpayer, but I do wish somebody could find the same information on the A330 and A340. The RLI agreements say that those two programs also send a royalty check to London, France, Berlin and Madrid with each frame sold, so after 1000+ you'd think those programs would be well on the way to full re-payment, but I don't believe anyone has ever been able to show it, which leads to claims that these royalties are both fictional and "red herrings" and RLI is in fact a "cash gift" and not a loan. Even the UK House of Commons report on RLI that folks point to as proof of RLI repayment only speaks of the A320 program.

And yes, Boeing gets plenty of direct and indirect subsidies and tax breaks, but so does Airbus. I myself listed scores of tax breaks given to Airbus and their subsidiaries by EU governments from the federal to city level which totaled in the tens of billions. And do not forget that the same tax breaks WA used to keep Boeing at Everett were offered to Airbus to build the KC-30, but AL gave them even more to get them to choose Mobile.

RLI is just a way for Airbus to obtain capital at very favorable rates unavailable to most industries. In that regard, it's no different then what MITI does for the Japanese heavies on the 787. Thus helps Boeing because they don't have to fund the entire program at market rates, which would put them at a competitive disadvantage to Airbus.

Both the EU (though RLI) and MITI (though their own mechanisms) encourage high-tech aerospace investment at home which improves both the competitiveness of their industries and the tax base. Governments all over the world do that every day through various mechanisms, so there really is nothing untoward about either.
 
worldrider
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:57 pm



Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 2):
Seems like a win-win for everybody, but I think the EU folks need to help Airbus on the restructure front and so far, no go. The USAF might not be helping here either as they are making noises about just one kind of tanker, which doens't sound optimal to me.

well, tell me day USAF buys tha A330 tanker then i would maybe accpet the idea that US works on pure "capitalistic" tools..


keep in touch
 
Joni
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:11 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
And do not forget that the same tax breaks WA used to keep Boeing at Everett were offered to Airbus to build the KC-30, but AL gave them even more to get them to choose Mobile.

Do you have some information that the tax incentives offered were actually the same? I recall that the ones Airbus got in AL were really minor, and not billions at all.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting Worldrider (Reply 15):
well, tell me day USAF buys tha A330 tanker then i would maybe accpet the idea that US works on pure "capitalistic" tools..

You do realize military purchases are governmental purchases? Capitalism has nothing to do with governmental purchases.

Quoting Joni (Reply 16):
Do you have some information that the tax incentives offered were actually the same? I recall that the ones Airbus got in AL were really minor, and not billions at all.

WA's tax incentives were not Boeing specific, but industry specific. Hence they are offered to anyone who sets up shop there. Alabama gave smaller incentives, but they have lower taxes to begin with and don't have an idiotic revenue tax like the B&O tax that Washington has.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
baroque
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:02 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
I do know the A320 has been a windfall for the British taxpayer, but I do wish somebody could find the same information on the A330 and A340. The RLI agreements say that those two programs also send a royalty check to London, France, Berlin and Madrid with each frame sold, so after 1000+ you'd think those programs would be well on the way to full re-payment, but I don't believe anyone has ever been able to show it, which leads to claims that these royalties are both fictional and "red herrings" and RLI is in fact a "cash gift" and not a loan. Even the UK House of Commons report on RLI that folks point to as proof of RLI repayment only speaks of the A320 program.

Grrr. Why do I have to produce this again and again. Richard Price, where are you?

Some of the documents are specific about the A32x and some are similarly specific about the A33/4 program, although none I can find sets it all out in the simple detail that would be nice.

BAE 2000
THE BAE 2000 report states: "During 2000, launch aid repayments charged to the profit and loss account in respect of our Airbus programmes reduced substantially to £122m (1999 £176m). Launch aid repayment was completed in 1999 on single aisle programmes, with repayments moving onto a royalty basis from 2000. The charge to the profit and loss account for these programmes amounted to £22m (1999 £74m), while on the A330/340 programme, repayments amounted to £100m (1999 £102m)."

As the outstanding amounts on the 330/340 program are listed by HoC as
GBP46 in 98 and 33 in 1999, a bit of maths suggests most of these sums must be per copy royalties on the 330.

A table from HoC 2000 gives


Big version: Width: 630 Height: 487 File size: 101kb


I am not sure why it is assumed that documents submitted to the House of Commons contain lies. The penalty for that might no longer be the Tower, but probably not much more pleasant.

No I cannot tell you how much has been repaid on the 345/346 but the amount advanced was not great.

What is clear is that returns to the various countries have now exceeded the total amounts initially advanced. The WTO case has at least winkled that bit of information out. No longer are we solely reliant on the UK data.

Anyone care to produce schedules of payments to and repayment by Boeing?
 
caljn
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:25 pm



Quoting Worldrider (Reply 5):
your statment is ridiculous!!! stop playing blind please, boeing and airbus are playing in the same level except maybe that airbus is not hiding as much? BILLIONs$$$ boeing gets in tax reductions, hiden subsidies and so on. still don't want to see it?

You're going to have to be a little specific. What Billions in tax reductions and "hidden subsidies" does Boeing take advantage of that is not available to Airbus?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:25 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 16):
Do you have some information that the tax incentives offered were actually the same?

They actually are not the same, since the KC-30 is not a "super efficient airplane" as defined by HB 2294. So the KC-30 would be charged a B&O tax rate of .00484% instead of the .002904% the 787 - and the 787 only) - will enjoy. If Airbus built the A350 here, they would get the .002904% rate.

So I redact my previous statement.

Full details on HB 2294 can be found here - http://www.dor.wa.gov/docs/Pubs/SpecialNotices/2004/sn_04_aero.pdf

Airbus would be eligible for the aerospace industry tax credits WA state hands out, but those are much smaller then the B&O tax cut which is where the bulk of Boeing's savings comes from and is dependent on the actual sales price of each 787 as the tax is calculated on gross receipts.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
Grrr. Why do I have to produce this again and again. Richard Price, where are you?

Because I hadn't seen it before (I don't read every thread on the forum). However, I have saved both it and the table for my records so if someone asks and you don't see it before I do, I can now provide the data. Thank you.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:28 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 16):
Do you have some information that the tax incentives offered were actually the same? I recall that the ones Airbus got in AL were really minor, and not billions at all.

They are the exact same ones offered to Boeing during the competition to locate the 787 production facility plus a bit extra for the engineering center which is a separate program. Similar as well to those offered and accepted by other European companies like Mercedes, Thyssen-Krupp, etc. I can assure you that in AL the tax incentives for new business do not discriminate in any way based on the home location of the company.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Caljn (Reply 19):
What Billions in tax reductions and "hidden subsidies" does Boeing take advantage of that is not available to Airbus?

Some claim the MITI investments into the Japanese "Heavies" for the 787 are a hidden subsidy, but the EU benefits a great deal from them, as well. Any EU company that uses Japanese "Lean Manufacturing" and quality control techniques benefits because MITI helped pay for that to be developed by Toyota who then spread it around.

So Porsche, which actually hired Toyota to implement lean manufacturing and quality control, has received "hidden subsidies" by this argument. I am sure many other EU companies - and likely Airbus itself - have all received such "hidden subsidies", which is why such arguments are so pedantic in nature because the people who make them are essentially cutting off their own noses to spite their own faces.

[Edited 2007-11-25 09:33:20]
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:52 pm

well the answer for Airbus is obvious, as part or this Power 8 thing they should just subcontract out vast portions of the work to non EADS /Airbus entities and have the respective national governments give those factories a non repayable aid just as the Italian and Japanese government are doing for the 787! Whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:55 pm



Quoting Worldrider (Reply 9):
EADS(Airbus) was founded long time ago by french, german, spanish and uk governments.

I think Airbus was founded by the Germans and the French alone. The Brits joined later, the Spanish much later. EADS was founded by the French, the Germans, and the Spanish. The Brits had no share in EADS, but held 20% of Airbus.
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:14 pm



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 24):
I think Airbus was founded by the Germans and the French alone. The Brits joined later, the Spanish much later. EADS was founded by the French, the Germans, and the Spanish. The Brits had no share in EADS, but held 20% of Airbus.

close
http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/people/Airbus_short_history.html
 
Mir
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:35 pm



Quoting Worldrider (Reply 5):
would you mind stop see A as the bad guy and B as the good ?

You misunderstand me. My point was that Boeing gets massive subsidies from governments outside the US by way of its contractors. I see neither A nor B as the bad guy in the subsidies game - they both get help, and they both know it.

Quoting Caljn (Reply 19):
You're going to have to be a little specific. What Billions in tax reductions and "hidden subsidies" does Boeing take advantage of that is not available to Airbus?

The 787's wings are built in Japan by Japanese companies that are heavily subsidized by the Japanese government, which allows those companies to sell them to Boeing for cheaper than they normally would. It's not an unfair advantage to Boeing, as Airbus could also subcontract to those companies, though they have obviously decided that it doesn't make economic sense. It does, however, make Boeing's claims of unfair Airbus subsidies rather tenuous.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:38 pm

So BAe joined Airbus even later (1979) than CASA (1974). I stand corrected  wave 
 
nrcnyc
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:44 pm

It's a real shame that both companies are major Charity cases. It would be interesting to see the products of the two firms if they actually had to finance entire projects with out money that comes from middle class Americans and Europeans. My intuition is that, at this point, both companies would continue to produce fine aircraft. The higher cost of capital might force them to be more innovative and make planes that are better suited to market than the planes currently available. But, this is theoretical BS since there is no way the US or the EU will ever stop loving their corporate welfare queens.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 28):
It's a real shame that both companies are major Charity cases. It would be interesting to see the products of the two firms if they actually had to finance entire projects with out money that comes from middle class Americans and Europeans. My intuition is that, at this point, both companies would continue to produce fine aircraft. The higher cost of capital might force them to be more innovative and make planes that are better suited to market than the planes currently available. But, this is theoretical BS since there is no way the US or the EU will ever stop loving their corporate welfare queens.

I totally agree. The way i see it they both get subsidies from their respective governments even if they go through loopholes (military contracts, loans etc.) so they arn't technically illegal. A&B are as bad as each other for it so at least its vaguely fair.

Fred
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Dougloid
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:11 pm

Dear Mr. Enders and Mr. Gallois,

Listen up.

Stop this infernal palaver and bitching about how you're getting screwed by the dollar and get smart, like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru and Kawasaki did.

Build the damn plane in Kansas or Nebraska, Airbus. Forget that window dressing stroke job in Alabama. It's so transparent even us dumb yanquis can figure it out.

If you want incentives, we got 'em, and you'll get 'em. Lots of 'em. You'll be sorting out tax credits and free acreage for years.

You want aerospace workers? We got plenty of them too, they're knowledgeable and diligent workers and engineers. We've been doing commercial for seventy five years here. And you know what?

You can fire them if they screw up. They go away and they don't come back.

And you know what else?

If you did, the WTO case would go away in a heartbeat and you'd be toasted all across this country as great people. You'd be bent over double from all the slaps on the back you'd be getting, and you'd have so many rounds bought for you, you'd be loopy for years. You'd probably also be able to sell your big airplanes to American, United and Delta in substantial numbers.

Thanks for your time

The American Public.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:12 pm



Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 28):
It's a real shame that both companies are major Charity cases. It would be interesting to see the products of the two firms if they actually had to finance entire projects with out money that comes from middle class Americans and Europeans.

Well Boeing could likely afford it, since while a "modern" (post-1980s) commercial aircraft program runs eleven figures, Boeing's total cash and liquid investments was $6 billion at the end of 2006 and they are trending to generate $7 billion in free cash flow this year. Of course, if Boeing spent all their available cash on the 787, they could not fund any other capital expenditures like the KC-X, the 747-8, CSARS, and a wide array of other programs and projects.

EADS was also sitting on some 8 billion Euro in cash and other liquid assets at the end of 2006. Free cash flow at the end of 2006 was 4 billion Euro, though that had dropped by close to a billion by Q1 2007 due to the losses generated by the Airbus group and another billion is expected to be lost through the remainder of 2007 per Airbus' Q1 2007 financial statement. So they'd be more stretched then Boeing.
 
concentriq
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 pm

I dont know enough about Airbus and Boeing gov't subsidy story, except for what i have read here on the forum, but I do know that governments subsidise businesses as a investment vehicle. Such as seen Here and Here, and in above mentioned royalties that UK gov't receives.

Now.. as we all know, what is sometimes perceived as pure money giveaway from governments to businesses is also an investment. For example: money given for growth of the company stimulates regional economy, which in turn stimulates higher wages, more consumer spending power, which in turn generates more taxes back to the government, etc etc...

Not to say that this is what happens in cases of Airbus and Boeing, but I thought I'd add my inflation adjusted $0.02.
Mobilis In Mobili
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:56 pm

Once again Airbus proves its addiction to European tax payer's money.

Airbus stands to lose billions of dollars primarily because it fell behind when it focused all its energy on the loss making A380. It was and remains out of touch with the markets needs. Why should tax payers foot the bills of a company that can't stand on its own two feet?
 
TheCol
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:07 pm



Quoting Worldrider (Reply 9):
not EU government. EADS(Airbus) was founded long time ago by french, german, spanish and uk governments. they are and still are mainly in charge of AIrbus, thus, i really don't see where the matter is, or is it EVIL "to be state controled"?

Well, I wouldn't want my tax dollars going to Airbus. There are far more important things to do with taxpayer's money.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
caljn
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:52 pm



Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 33):
Airbus stands to lose billions of dollars primarily because it fell behind when it focused all its energy on the loss making A380. It was and remains out of touch with the markets needs. Why should tax payers foot the bills of a company that can't stand on its own two feet?

You are correct sir! The A380 was developed out of pure hubris...it will not return it's investment.

Airbus, with their self esteem issues, had to have the title of manufacturer of the worlds largest commercial aircraft.
Development at the public trough be damned.
No business rationale has supported it's existence...conversely, witness the success of the 787 and now the A350 . Products of basic market research.

With their request for yet more government assistance they are merely reaping what they have sown.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:16 pm



Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 33):
Once again Airbus proves its addiction to European tax payer's money.

Airbus stands to lose billions of dollars primarily because it fell behind when it focused all its energy on the loss making A380. It was and remains out of touch with the markets needs. Why should tax payers foot the bills of a company that can't stand on its own two feet?

I think you'll find boeing do pretty much the same thing and get money from the gov't. There are too many people here that are totally blind to it and i have to say that the majority of them are boeing fanboys, in actual fact i have to say that airbus seem to do it in a more transparent way by the governments giving loans which as previously stated airbus do pay off and in the case of the A320 actully have technically lost money on whereas boeing seem to get monies for military contracts.

They are both at it and neither one is worse than the other, just seems that the fanboys (on both sides) are blind to the fact.

Fred
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:22 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 36):
(I)n actual fact i have to say that airbus seem to do it in a more transparent way by the governments giving loans...

The 1992 agreement spells out quite clearly - and transparently - where each company is allowed to draw from.

Quote:
whereas boeing seem to get monies for military contracts.

Ever heard of a little puddle-jumper called the A400M?  Smile

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 36):
They are both at it and neither one is worse than the other, just seems that the fanboys (on both sides) are blind to the fact.

So true.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:25 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
If you did, the WTO case would go away in a heartbeat and you'd be toasted all across this country as great people.

I would sincerely doubt that.
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atmx2000
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:26 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 36):
There are too many people here that are totally blind to it and i have to say that the majority of them are boeing fanboys, in actual fact i have to say that airbus seem to do it in a more transparent way by the governments giving loans which as previously stated airbus do pay off and in the case of the A320 actully have technically lost money on whereas boeing seem to get monies for military contracts.

Airbus and its present and past parents receive both. Moreover, military contracts compete for scarce engineering resources, because, you know, you have to actually make something to fulfill the terms of contracts. If I needed the subsidies, I would want the ones intended to directly help me achieve my business goal.
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davescj
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:27 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 8):
Expect a decision there within a few years.

It'll be interesting not only to see what is said, but how it will be put into effect. This decision will have consequences much farther than just B and A.

Dave
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Lumberton
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:35 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
Build the damn plane in Kansas or Nebraska, Airbus. Forget that window dressing stroke job in Alabama. It's so transparent even us dumb yanquis can figure it out.

Maybe they heard you, Dougloid?
EADS CEO says some production may have to move to US

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FRANKFURT (Thomson Financial) - EADS chief executive Louis Gallois said the company may well have to transfer some of its production to the US if the dollar continues to remain weak, in an interview with Welt am Sonntag newspaper.
He said such a move would have negative consequences for the whole European aerospace industry.

Of course, this could all be for the benefit of the unions in order to give them a "foretaste of the damnation that awaits" if they don't grab onto that 40 hour work week and stop this talk of raising prices on aircraft.
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:40 pm



Quoting Davescj (Reply 40):
It'll be interesting not only to see what is said, but how it will be put into effect. This decision will have consequences much farther than just B and A.

If truly onerous, I expect the US and/or the EU to just ignore them. The US will not let the WTO put Boeing under, nor will the EU allow the same with Airbus. And the trade relationships between both governments are far too important to allow non-compliance by either party to scuttle them.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:02 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
Ever heard of a little puddle-jumper called the A400M?

Actully that didnt occur to me  ashamed  , I just get frustrated with the fanboys on here somtimes. Oh well at least none of them are taking the presidents wife on shopping trips yet eh BAe.

ok i'l be quiet, we dont a real row on our hands.

Fred
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ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:08 pm

If Airbus needs government support while selling up to 1500 jets in one year, they are not a viable company and should be broken up, sold or otherwise forced into a reality. If you are the largest airplane manufacturer in the world, with a bread and butter product in the A320 and a large backlog of profitable widebodies and you can't make due without government aid, then you are either selling your product at a loss (known on the world stage as dumping, which is supposed to be against the "law"), or the management is so inept they should be arrested for fraud. So which is it?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:13 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
Some of the documents are specific about the A32x and some are similarly specific about the A33/4 program

Indeed! Inconvenient isn't it?  Smile

Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
Anyone care to produce schedules of payments to and repayment by Boeing?

That question has never occurred to me, funnily enough. Or anyone else, for that matter.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
I see neither A nor B as the bad guy in the subsidies game - they both get help, and they both know it.

 checkmark 

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 28):
It's a real shame that both companies are major Charity cases

I think that description is grossly unfair to both businesses, each of which has proven quite capable of oerating profitably (generally)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Both the EU (though RLI) and MITI (though their own mechanisms) encourage high-tech aerospace investment at home which improves both the competitiveness of their industries and the tax base. Governments all over the world do that every day through various mechanisms, so there really is nothing untoward about either.

 checkmark 
This is the reason that governments support these businesses, along with a multitude of others..

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 33):
Airbus stands to lose billions of dollars primarily because it fell behind when it focused all its energy on the loss making A380.

Many thanks for providing us with the proper explanation, AApilot2b.

Now we can dismiss any notions that Airbus fell behind because it
a) misjudged the A345/6 (retrospectively)
b) made a complete mess of the design/production interface on the A380
c) misjudged the quality of the 787
All of which are quite blatantly ridiculous and need stamping out by the Thought Police.  gnasher 

The A380 is the "root of all evil"!

(  no  )

Regards
 
LAXintl
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:14 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 44):
So which is it?

Inefficient, high cost European labor market.

35 hour work weeks, 5-6 week vacations, early retirement, full pensions in addition to often onerous work rules.

Might be a little late, but Airbus is waking up to this fact with the planned A32X line in China, and A320 cargo conversions in Russia.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:27 pm

A lot of good info here but it is all skirting around the salient problems.

Airbus have to deal with inflexible labour arrangements of Europe

They are loosing money hand over fist on the 380 program.

They have huge R&D reguirements for the 350/A400 programs, and future 320 replacement.


Airbus are involved in a WTO case and because they are being looked at with a microscope, it is difficult to provide the usual seeding money. Tax breaks on earnt income do not distort the market at all or in a very limited way compared with start up or seeding money.

There are lots more, but the underlying problem is their margins are not high enough to absorb all this, and they are going to loose money until the problems are addressed.

Even if they can increase their margins now, the damage is already done by discounting years ago, when the contracts were negotiated.

The clear way to open up legitimate ways of providing financial assistance to Airbus is to blame the low dollar, thus allowing assistance to be paid.

As Dugloid has pointed out, there are other ways of getting around the problem, but the realities of the EU labour policies are such that this is impossible. The French labour unions know this, and have themselves identified the fundamental problem of excessive discounting on aircraft sales, and the realisation that the only way out and maintain the jobs in the EU is to obtain better margins.

The cost of this is a lower market share, and this of course will carry it.s own set of political problems.

Ruscoe
 
gsosbee
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:29 pm

Airbus' problem is lack of cash flow due to the delays in the A380, A350XWB and A400M programs. The cash from the A320 and A330 programs no longer covers the lack of cash from the former programs. Airbus bet the ranch and is now down quite a lot to the house.

I guarantee you that someone at Airbus is working on a scenario right now where the A350 is abandoned to develop the 737/A320 replacement ahead of Boeing. This is how you get ahead of your competitor, give the market something the market is calling for ahead of your competitor making your competitor either play catch-up or lose out.

It is not Boeing's fault that they diversified into military programs that generally are at least cash positive if not profitable. The WTO decision is years away and the appeal by the losing side will take decades.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Airbus Wants Support For A350 Jets - Reuters

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:37 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 48):
I guarantee you that someone at Airbus is working on a scenario right now where the A350 is abandoned to develop the 737/A320 replacement ahead of Boeing.

Huh? Someone may be working on a scenario, but you can't be suggesting that there is a ghost of a chance that this will happen? They need this aircraft.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".