cloudy
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Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:10 am

Bombardier claims impressive operating cost advantage for their C-Series with Pratt's geared turbofan. 15% versus current aircraft is the figure I remember.

Southwest has publicly asked for a 737 sized plane with 7E7 technology, as soon as possible. The C-Series as described on the Bombardier web page seems to come close. It does have an Aluminum-Lithium fuselage rather than composite barrels as in the 7E7. On the other hand, it has Pratt's geared turbofan, which the 7E7 does not have.

The largest version of the C-Series can seat a maximum of 150 in high density. Southwest does not put the maximum in their 737-700 - they use a 137 seat configuration. Could the largest of the C-Series carry 137 passengers with no loss of seat pitch compared to Southwest's 737-700?

If Bombardier can do as they claim, would Southwest seriously consider going with them? They do like being launch customers. They could use the smaller versions of the C-series to replace the 737-500 and/or go after new markets. The larger versions could replace the -300's. Another advantage of the C-Series is that there are fewer undesirable middle seats.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:37 am

I guess it could happen but i seriously doubt it. They have such a massive 737 fleet and love commanality so while the C series might offer savings and efficiency right now they would have to look at the cost of running a completely ne aircraft type. Also pilots could not move between the 737 and C series (not as easily as going between the different versions of their 737s). It might be more realistic for them to wait for boeing to develop the 737 replacement, maybe boeing could get pratt to offer this type of engine for current 737s to offer the extra engine efficiency until a 737 replacement can be produced. If boeing did lose southwest it would really suck but i seriously doubt they will
 
AA737-823
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 am

Ah, but the 737 replacement won't (most likely) have much commonality with the 737, either.
If they get what they want, and have composite fuselage barrels, well, there goes your commonality.

I see the next aircraft decisions from Southwest as being pivotal to the industry. AND, they're completely up for grabs. Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, and Boeing all have a golden opportunity here. We've reached the end of the useful life of the 737/A320 programs as we know them.

And before three hundred people jump up and down and scream that Southwest would NEVER walk away from Boeing, let me say just the opposite. Southwest's business plan is in dire need of tweaking. They're going to do what makes the most sense to their bottom line (As they should- this is a 'free-enterprise' market). And if that product doesn't come from Boeing, then so be it.
 
Super80DFW
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:32 pm

When is the C-Series ready to launch? Probably a long time from now.

I have a feeling that Boeing will develop the 7E7 model of the 737. As long as Southwest promises to order it, Boeing would most likely bulid it. Southwest has probably been the best customer to Boeing. Is there any other airline out there that has an ALL BOEING FLEET?

Just a quick question, Wasn't there something in the Wright Amendment that said aircraft with under like 56 seats could fly anywhere? I thought I heard that somewhere. If that was true, I think that Southwest should have bought a fleet of Embraer 145XR's that could go long distances.
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
spartanmjf
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:09 pm



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 3):
Is there any other airline out there that has an ALL BOEING FLEET?

Off the top of my head, AirTran, Continental, Delta.....
 duck   duck   duck   duck   duck   duck   duck   duck   duck 
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
ilikeflight
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:16 pm



Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):
Off the top of my head, AirTran, Continental, Delta.....

Add AS to that list
Think Different
 
spartanmjf
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:22 pm



Quoting Ilikeflight (Reply 5):
Add AS to that list

And SkyEurope not to mention Ryanair.....
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
MMEPHX
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:22 pm



Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):
Off the top of my head, AirTran, Continental, Delta.....

technically all those Mad dogs of Delta's were delivered by MD who now happened to be owned by Boeing but to get back to the question of the OP, I agree with AA737, WNs decision on future aircraft needs could be the industry defining moment. Not that they are the only 737 operator with any influence/interest in the design performance of course but with such a huge fleet they will probably have a disproportianate influence. Ryanair is another with similar potential impact (and another all Boeing operator)

Could truly go in any direction, I'm sure all manufacturers are talking to WN about their needs, history says Boeing has the inside track? but the final analysis will come down to the best long term financial decision for WN.
 
Super80DFW
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:36 pm



Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):
Off the top of my head, AirTran, Continental, Delta.....

Well, Delta used to fly the Airbus A310, L-1011. There are also pictures on MD-80's, DC-9's, and even Airbus in Continental colors. Same with AirTran, DC-9's.

I meant always. I'm sorry, I should have stated that before.
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:04 pm



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Southwest has publicly asked for a 737 sized plane with 7E7 technology, as soon as possible. The C-Series as described on the Bombardier web page seems to come close.

Except for the common engine, spar parts, aircraft design and type rating that the 737 family shares, sure it's kind of the same.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:07 pm



Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 9):
Except for the common engine, spar parts, aircraft design and type rating that the 737 family shares, sure it's kind of the same.

How many of those bits do you reckon will fit on the 737 replacement?
What the...?
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:07 pm

Until Bombardier shows a real capability to launch the C series... everything and everyone has to speculate. Not a position Southwest wants to be in.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:28 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
How many of those bits do you reckon will fit on the 737 replacement?

If Boeing does the smart thing...a lot of the parts will.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 12):
If Boeing does the smart thing...a lot of the parts will.

Well then let me be the first to say Boeing will do the stupid thing as far as you are concerned  Yeah sure

It will be nearly impossible for Boeing to maintain significant commonality with the 737NG and still meet the performance targets set by the airlines at large.

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
Until Bombardier shows a real capability to launch the C series... everything and everyone has to speculate. Not a position Southwest wants to be in.

Not necessarily. Southwest could make or break whatever aircraft program they chose.


Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Could the largest of the C-Series carry 137 passengers with no loss of seat pitch compared to Southwest's 737-700?

The C130 has a maximum capacity of 145 in all-economy and 130 economy seats in "standard" configuration. No pitch figures are provided, but I think it's safe to say that C130 is a slightly smaller aircraft than the 737-300/700.
 
etfokker50
Posts: 87
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:54 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
The C130 has a maximum capacity of 145 in all-economy and 130 economy seats in "standard" configuration. No pitch figures are provided, but I think it's safe to say that C130 is a slightly smaller aircraft than the 737-300/700.

For a second there I tought you were talking about a cargo / military plane  Smile
 
N908AW
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:54 pm



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 3):
Is there any other airline out there that has an ALL BOEING FLEET?

Champion.  sarcastic  All 12 aircraft...
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting N908AW (Reply 15):
Champion. sarcastic All 12 aircraft...

And Ryanair and a whole lot more I'd rather not go check...

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 3):
Southwest has probably been the best customer to Boeing.

In terms of dollar value of aircraft ordered, SQ might have them beat. Singapore has ordered nearly 200 747 and 777, both jets that Boeing has historically discounted very little. I also don't think we have seen their last 787 order either. When you consider that a 747 lists for almost 4 times that of a 737, they will give even Southwest a run for their money.
 
planemaker
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RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:36 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
It will be nearly impossible for Boeing to maintain significant commonality with the 737NG and still meet the performance targets set by the airlines at large.

I heartily second your opinion!! To maintain any real commonality Boeing would have to "dumb" down the 737 replacement significantly... and still there would be little commonality.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
BooDog
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 am

RE: Southwest And The Bombardier's C-Series

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
Until Bombardier shows a real capability to launch the C series... everything and everyone has to speculate. Not a position Southwest wants to be in.

Not necessarily. Southwest could make or break whatever aircraft program they chose.

This is the key statement in the entire thread so far.

This is a quick summary of pg. 80-81 From "Nuts!" by Kevin Freiberg, copyright 1996: As the launch customer for the 737-300, WN asked Boeing to make design changes to the new aircraft to help speed up ground operations even more. They asked Boeing to reposition the service panel for the lavatories so that the equipment used to drain the lavs wouldn't block other equipment. The sequence with which you locate ground service equipment around an airplane has a big impact on turnaround time. Airlines have to start the baggage loader first. If that baggage loader blocks access to the lav service panel, then you're going to end up with a real problem that could cost you valuable time.

The book is full of examples of Boeing and WN working together. Every plane WN flies today is either a 737-300, 737-500, or a 737-700. They were the launch customer for all three of these aircraft, and had input on all three of these aircraft.

Boeing and WN have a good history together. If another aircraft company wants WN's business, they will have to earn much trust, completely design the aircraft around what WN wants, and give them a great "launch customer" deal.
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