SailorOrion
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ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:29 am

Hi,

one year to go and ORD will commission its new north runway 09L/27R. I've been wondering how operations could look like with this runway active.

In West flow, arrivals could use the 27s and the 28, while departures would have two free-roll runways (32L-T10 and 22L). Departures needing full length could use 28. So far, so good but what about East flow? If the 9s and 10 are used for arrivals, you hardly have any "good" departure runway left, except maybe 22L (which would then give you tailwind departures) ... so how would an East flow look?

Things will look much nicer with 10C/28C active, but that doesn't seem to happen before 2011 or something .....

Any info whether Phase 2 (9C/27C and 10R/28L) will be implemented and when?

Thanks,
SailorOrion
 
Cubsrule
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:07 pm

Phase 1 is much more about IFR operations than the standard flows. IIRC, the old 9/27s (now 10/28 and 9R/27L) are not far enough apart for simultaneous approaches in poor weather. With the horrendous taxi times to 9L/27R, you won't see it used much in good weather.
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kc135topboom
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:12 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Phase 1 is much more about IFR operations than the standard flows.

So the new 9L/27R will be a CAT III ILS? On both ends? How long will the new runway be? How many operations per hour will it give you?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:26 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
How many operations per hour will it give you?

The FAA says 10, as they had said they would allow 10 more arrivals per hour (98 instead of 88). That's still fewer than the 100 or so currently possible in VFR conditions.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
How long will the new runway be?

I think 8000 feet, but that's just off the top of my head, so it may be wrong.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
airportplan
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:54 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
How long will the new runway be?

I think 8000 feet, but that's just off the top of my head, so it may be wrong.

7,500 Feet
 
SailorOrion
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:20 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
IIRC, the old 9/27s (now 10/28 and 9R/27L) are not far enough apart for simultaneous approaches in poor weather.

They are. In fact, they (27L and 28) are now the only CAT II/III-capable runways at ORD. The new runway will be CAT II/III as well.

SailorOrion
 
dispatchguy
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:46 am



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 5):
In fact, they (27L and 28) are now the only CAT II/III-capable runways at ORD

What about the 14s?
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IAHFLYR
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:31 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
With the horrendous taxi times to 9L/27R, you won't see it used much in good weather.

Here at IAH the controllers hate putting traffic on the new runway 8L/26R, especially the 26R landing due to the horrendous taxi to passenger ramp, but the weather really doesn't impact the use of the runway, when you're landing 120+ an hour the object is just that, to land! I'd imagine when they open the flood gates for arrivals it won't matter what the weather is, the long taxi route will just be a long taxi route!

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
The FAA says 10, as they had said they would allow 10 more arrivals per hour (98 instead of 88).

Only 10 more arrivals for a new runway?  Confused Who on earth arrived at that number?
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SailorOrion
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:01 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 6):
What about the 14s?

The 14L is a bit of a problem with all the construction going on there, I think the new ATCT is not helpful either (obstacle free zones and stuff)

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 7):
Only 10 more arrivals for a new runway? Confused Who on earth arrived at that number?

The new runway is not intended to provide additional capacity. It's intended to reduce weather delays, and it will do so well. Currently, Plan X allows for about 100 arrivals per hour. With 9L/27R, ORD will be able to accept 100 arrivals per hour in almost any weather.

SailorOrion
 
dispatchguy
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:17 pm



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 8):
The 14L is a bit of a problem with all the construction going on there, I think the new ATCT is not helpful either (obstacle free zones and stuff)

Well, there are no local nor FDC notams putting the 14s out of service, including the low landing minimum approaches to the 14s. ORD ATC is more than willing to use the 14s when it is required. Note that they rarely use the 14s for landings, except when the winds are southerly, or the visibility is very low under Plan IFR.

To be honest, with all of the construction, I wouldve assumed that CAT II and III to the 14s was no longer possible - however, there are no notams stating so - the construction equipment must be clear of the required free zone so as not to effect the approaches there. Some of the GPS approaches to the 14s have had their minimums increased on account of the construction equipment, but none of the standard ILS (see FDC ORD Notam 7/5814).
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IAHFLYR
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:36 pm



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 8):
The new runway is not intended to provide additional capacity. It's intended to reduce weather delays, and it will do so well.

Isn't that increasing capacity then by reducing delays no matter what the reason?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:47 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 10):
Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 8):
The new runway is not intended to provide additional capacity. It's intended to reduce weather delays, and it will do so well.

Isn't that increasing capacity then by reducing delays no matter what the reason?

It should.

What I find amazing in all of this is ORD can only handle 100 arrivals an hour?  banghead 
 
CoolGuy
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:23 pm

How does ORD operate now? It seems so confusing. A lot of airports have takeoffs on the inner runway and landings on the outer runway, if it's set up in that configuration, but I just have no idea how ORD works.
 
dispatchguy
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 12):
How does ORD operate now? It seems so confusing. A lot of airports have takeoffs on the inner runway and landings on the outer runway, if it's set up in that configuration, but I just have no idea how ORD works.

Peruse http://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/west/zau/ord/ord_aar1.htm

Plus, the controllers at ORD are probably the best in the US Airspace system
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dispatchguy
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:30 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
What I find amazing in all of this is ORD can only handle 100 arrivals an hour?

ORD CAN handle 100 per hour, AS LONG AS you have 3 arrival runways, so with the winds supporting an eastern flow, you can land on 4R, 9R, and 10, and that flow doesnt have any intersecting runways, so the LAHSO limitations arent required.

With SW-W winds, you can land 22R hold short 27L, plus 28 and 27L AS LONG AS the winds and runway config support LAHSO on 22R (crosswinds acceptable and a dry surface). With no LAHSO (in other words, no 22R hold short 27L), you're down to about a 76 acceptance rate, which will produce about an hour of flow delay during the busy time periods.

The basic rule is 3 arrival runways can support 100 per hour, you lose a runway, and your acceptance rate starts to drop, and the delays go up.
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Mir
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:54 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 13):
Peruse http://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/w...1.htm

What's the difference between "trip" and "no-trip"?

-Mir
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airportplan
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:29 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
What's the difference between "trip" and "no-trip"?

-Mir

trip - 3 (Triple) Runways

no-trip - Less than 3 Runways
 
Cubsrule
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:57 pm



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 5):
They are. In fact, they (27L and 28) are now the only CAT II/III-capable runways at ORD. The new runway will be CAT II/III as well.

I show both 14s as Cat II/III also... is that incorrect?

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 14):
The basic rule is 3 arrival runways can support 100 per hour, you lose a runway, and your acceptance rate starts to drop, and the delays go up.

Which is why the new runway will help; it is far enough from everything to permit 3 simultaneous approaches in just about any weather (except nasty north or south winds, which happen VERY infrequently and will screw the entire new configuration).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
apodino
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:45 am



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 14):
With SW-W winds, you can land 22R hold short 27L, plus 28 and 27L AS LONG AS the winds and runway config support LAHSO on 22R (crosswinds acceptable and a dry surface). With no LAHSO (in other words, no 22R hold short 27L), you're down to about a 76 acceptance rate, which will produce about an hour of flow delay during the busy time periods.

You refer to Plan Weird, and the Arrival rate is 96 in this config, not 100.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting Apodino (Reply 18):
You refer to Plan Weird, and the Arrival rate is 96 in this config, not 100.

Is that right? It seems like there shouldn't be any AAR difference between Plan X (which does have an AAR of 100) and Plan Weird, which has an AAR of 96.
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timz
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RE: ORD Parallel 09/27

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:06 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
IIRC, the old 9/27s (now 10/28 and 9R/27L) are not far enough apart for simultaneous approaches in poor weather.

They're 5400+ feet apart. They're not quite parallel, so the localizers to the 27s get slightly closer than that, but still well above 4300 ft separation.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: ORD Plus 09L/27R - Operations?

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:36 pm

But trips require 5,000' without a high $$ RADAR system different than the ASR-9.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.