User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4899
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:57 pm

Ever since Delta has retired their 737-200s and 737-300s, they have been left with a huge gap between the CRJ-900 and MD-88. Yes, I know that Delta has some 737-700s on order, but they will be used on a completely different mission than what the 737-200s/300s were used for. The 737-700s will primarily be used for ETOPS flights to Latin America, where the 757 is too large. However, for domestic capacity, Delta may need to go with a new 100-seater. Delta has also hinted at acquiring some MD-90s from China Southern, however, the MD-90 may still be too large for some smaller markets, and if acquired, they would be primarily used out of SLC. I have heard rumors in the past that Delta was interested in some Embraer 190s, but haven't heard anything since. Also, interest in the Bombardier CSeries is somewhat being revived, and could also be a good choice for a new 100 seater for Delta. If the 737RS includes a 100-seater model, then maybe Delta could show interest in such model. If Delta goes the Embraer/Bombardier route, I don't think it will have much effect on Delta's gentleman's agreement with Boeing, as they are still primarily considered RJ manufacturers. If Delta were to order Airbus then Boeing would be concerned.

Does anyone have views on this?
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
NASBWI
Posts: 919
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:12 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:09 pm

I'm not familiar with DL's scope-clause agreements with their pilots, but if 100-seaters are allowed to be flown by DL mainline, the 190/195 might be a good fit for them. However, being that they already operate Boeing aircraft, I'd be willing to guess that Boeing would try their hardest to sell them the 737-600 to supplement their 737 fleet.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have views on this?

I think you leave me with more questions than answers.

Firstly, why does Delta need a 100 seater? CR9 seats 70. MD88 seats 142. 738 seats 150. Fly 2 or more CR9's on a route and when those fill up you replace the two flights with one mainline aircraft. How many seats are the 737-700's being configured with? I'd assume about 120. You say these planes will be used to South America but what is stopping Delta from using them domestically on choice routes which warrent an upgrade from the CR9 bus can't handle the 738?
Is there really a gap which needs filling?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
If the 737RS includes a 100-seater model

Doubtful, such a shrink would be uneconomical and having a 100 seater as a base model won't allow as much growth room needed to replace the 737/757.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
If Delta were to order Airbus then Boeing would be concerned.

What would Delta order from Airbus to fill this need for a 100 seater you think they have?

[Edited 2007-11-26 12:16:14]
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4899
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
What would Delta order from Airbus to fill this need for a 100 seater you think they have?

The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

BTW, Delta's pilot union contract specifies that any aircraft with more than 76 seats would be flown as mainline. Delta is somewhat "cheating" with the CRJ-900, by operating them in a two-class configuration to allow them to be flown by Delta Connection.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
User avatar
fanoftristars
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:17 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
CR9 seats 70

Actually 76...

Delta has mostly been filling their gap of a 100 seat plane with a mix of CRJs and MD-88's, MD-90s and 738s. I would love to see every last MD-90 leave the fleet and be replaced by 738s, but that's wishful thinking, especially if they're thinking of buying China's MD-90s.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
Boston92
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:18 pm

Who is the owner of the CR9's?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:21 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

Would the 737-700 not fill the same roll as the A318? Delta would probably configure them to hold within 20 pax of each other.

BTW: when are thr 737-700's being delivered? I see they have had 10 on order for the past 10 years.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:25 pm



Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 4):
Actually 76...

Tell that to Delta's website.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4899
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:27 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
BTW: when are thr 737-700's being delivered? I see they have had 10 on order for the past 10 years

They should be be in service by June of 2008. They are actually converted 737-800 orders, which is why they are listed as being on order for the past 10 years.

The 737-700s will primarily be used to Latin America, which is completely different than what the 737-200s and 737-300s were used for. They will be ETOPS-rated and will be equipped with winglets. Any 100-seater, on the other hand, would be used for short-haul flights within the continental United States.

BTW, I believe that the 737-700s will feature the slimline seats that were recently installed on some of the 737-800s, which should allow for a few more passengers.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11423
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:31 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
Would the 737-700 not fill the same roll as the A318? Delta would probably configure them to hold within 20 pax of each other.

Well, the 736 and the 318 are much more comparable. The problem with the 318 is that it's not an efficient aircraft except on very long missions. The advantage of them comes from operating other Airbus narrowbodies and operating it basically as a 319 with 20 fewer seats (which F9 and AF seem content to do). But without the commonality and the attendant savings, especially for a carrier like DL that does much of its m/x in house, those benefits are negated.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:33 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Delta has also hinted at acquiring some MD-90s from China Southern, however, the MD-90 may still be too large for some smaller markets, and if acquired, they would be primarily used out of SLC.

This deal is already being finalized.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
However, for domestic capacity, Delta may need to go with a new 100-seater.

Says who? Since when is Delta hurting for domestic capacity?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have views on this?

I have two. First, when did you become a fleet analyst? Did you give up in-flight products, IFE, and PSU analytics? Second, Delta is only hurting for long-haul WIDEBODY aircraft.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:33 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
They should be be in service by June of 2008. They are actually converted 737-800 orders, which is why they are listed as being on order for the past 10 years.

Thanks, I found the press release too.
http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10478

It says the 737-700 will be used domestically as well as to Latin America and the Caribbean.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
BTW, I believe that the 737-700s will feature the slimline seats that were recently installed on some of the 737-800s, which should allow for a few more passengers.

Yes, 124 seats.

So, 76 seats on the CR9 and 124 on the 737-700. Is there a gap?
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:38 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Well, the 736 and the 318 are much more comparable.

Right, but since the 736 is pretty much dead on the table, the -700 is all I have to compare. That said, the A318 is in intensive care itself and the only reasons to order either you already stated.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11423
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:40 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 12):
Right, but since the 736 is pretty much dead on the table, the -700 is all I have to compare.

If DL (or anyone else) wanted 736s for the right price, Boeing would be more than happy to oblige.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have views on this?

DL could just simply buy out FL and/or YX and get about a bunch of almost-new 717s to fill in the aircraft size gap.   

[Edited 2007-11-26 12:45:39]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Web
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:56 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:45 pm

The EMB-190/195 is available now. I think they would go with that over any planned C-Series or Boeing 737RS. However, whether DL decides to get 100-seaters remains to be seen; AA seems to make it work (CRJ-700 @ 70 pax, MD-80 @ 150ish pax). I think from what they've done in the past DL would rather send 2 CRJs than get a whole new aircraft, as the cost of running 2 CRJs must be less than the cost of running 1 new aircraft. It's all about money, really.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:46 pm



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
738 seats 150

Expanding to 160.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
You say these planes will be used to South America but what is stopping Delta from using them domestically on choice routes which warrent an upgrade from the CR9 bus can't handle the 738?

The OP's imagination.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

 rotfl  Keep dreaming, kid.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:48 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
The A318, or a future model of the Airbus NSR.

the A318 is a horrible airplane..way way way overbuilt for only 100-110 seats...serves only if you have other A320 products...the EMB195 would be ideal for DL. I know DL will be getting a small order of 737-700s mainly for hot and high operations
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:55 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):

If DL (or anyone else) wanted 736s for the right price, Boeing would be more than happy to oblige.

Trouble is, no one wants them due to their economics, or lack thereof. I think that's what he was getting at.
PHX based
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4899
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:13 am

I wonder if Delta needs more international widebody capacity, what is there to prevent them from acquring some second-hand 767s? Delta operates both GE- and Pratt-powered 767-300s, so engine commonality isn't much of an issue. Perhaps exit layout could be an issue, however, Delta operates 767-300ERs with two of the three exit layouts that have been offered on the 767-300. Delta's normal 767-300 layout features two sets of standard-size exits and two sets of overwing exit. This is the most common layout found with U.S.-based airlines. The ex-Gulf Air/Asiana aircraft feature three sets of standard-size exits and one set of overwing exits. The only layout that Delta doesn't operate is the type with four sets of standard-size exits, which is operated by a few European airlines.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
LawnDart
Posts: 861
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:57 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
First, when did you become a fleet analyst?

About the same time you became DL's CFO, apparently, since you're signing papers in Beijing:  sarcastic 

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
This deal is already being finalized.

By the way...rumor has it the deal is not (yet) finalized. (Ever wonder why the only airline in the world that could possibly want MD90s hasn't announced a deal yet, after months of rumors?)

Quoting Web (Reply 15):
The EMB-190/195 is available now. I think they would go with that over any planned C-Series

I tend to disagree...DL can soldier on with the "gap" between the CRJ900 and the MD88 until Bombardier develops the C-series, with a new engine and composite construction; it just might make the E-jets obsolete
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:02 am



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):
By the way...rumor has it the deal is not (yet) finalized. (Ever wonder why the only airline in the world that could possibly want MD90s hasn't announced a deal yet, after months of rumors?)

Nothing final has been signed.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):
I tend to disagree...DL can soldier on with the "gap" between the CRJ900 and the MD88 until Bombardier develops the C-series, with a new engine and composite construction; it just might make the E-jets obsolete

Agree with you on this one - if Bombardier can pull of the C, then it might in-fact make the Ejets obsolete.

For now if DL needs to upgauge a route they can add a flight or two depending on demand. Apart for the 10-20 73Gs coming online, they're doing fine with what they got and the added lift from expanding seating capacity and CR9s/E175s coming online.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:24 am



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 11):
So, 76 seats on the CR9 and 124 on the 737-700. Is there a gap?

Sure looks like it to me- 48 seats is the size of a complete CRJ-200 for them. That's quite a gap. And running two flights is not as cost effective as running one, particularly if you're trying to time BOTH of them for appropriate hub connections. If nothing else, you have to pay double the landing fees.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
This deal is already being finalized.

Really? Rumor around here is that the deal is dead. And I can't see anything to substantiate EITHER rumor- neither have any credibility as far as I can tell. I hope it goes through- as a passenger, I enjoy Delta's MD-90s.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
If DL (or anyone else) wanted 736s for the right price

But the 736 is just as horrible an aircraft as the 318. Heavier than the airplane it replaced (737-500, due to structural mods and engines), and expensive to acquire, compared to slightly smaller offerings from Embraer.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
Says who? Since when is Delta hurting for domestic capacity?

Never- wholly mackarel, their hubs are insane.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
The ex-Gulf Air/Asiana aircraft feature three sets of standard-size exits and one set of overwing exits.

As do the ex-Continental (NTU for CO) 767-324s.


I guess that, while I think this gap is significant and requires eventual attention, bottom line is that Delta has bigger things to worry about than this gap.
Like hostile takeovers from US, poor merger partners (cough- United), international expansion, etc.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4662
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
Firstly, why does Delta need a 100 seater? CR9 seats 70. MD88 seats 142. 738 seats 150. Fly 2 or more CR9's on a route and when those fill up you replace the two flights with one mainline aircraft. How many seats are the 737-700's being configured with? I'd assume about 120. You say these planes will be used to South America but what is stopping Delta from using them domestically on choice routes which warrent an upgrade from the CR9 bus can't handle the 738?
Is there really a gap which needs filling?

well DL did say they would be looking into a 100-seat a/c but didn't really say much(back when they said they would order 125 787s bye the end of this year(in France i think it was)

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 5):
Who is the owner of the CR9's?

some are Delta some are SkyWest

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
I see they have had 10 on order for the past 10 years.

coverts from 738s

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 11):
It says the 737-700 will be used domestically as well as to Latin America and the Caribbean.

but i think they mean something like a FL or NYC turn after a ATL-Latin AM flight.

BTW the new 73Gs will have winglets and there are options for 10 more
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Boston92
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:28 am



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 23):
some are Delta some are SkyWest

So if Delta REALLY wanted/needed this 100 seater, they could easily take some of the CR9's, convert them to 90-98 seats and fly them as mainline. Simple.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
jkudall
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:21 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:41 am



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 24):
So if Delta REALLY wanted/needed this 100 seater, they could easily take some of the CR9's, convert them to 90-98 seats and fly them as mainline. Simple.

90-98 seats on a CR9? I don't think so. The most you can reasonably get out of a CR9 is 86 seats at 31" pitch all economy. I don't think you will ever see the CR9 flying under DL mainline.
 
Boston92
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:45 am



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 25):
I don't think you will ever see the CR9 flying under DL mainline.

Me either...and for the seats, fine, but you get the point.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
laca773
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:14 am

Wouldn't the E190/195 be perfect for DL on the "thinner" routes on flights like LAX-RDU/CMH/BDL/JAX etc..? AC seems to do well with the E190s out of PHX/SAN-YYZ. It seems to me it might be a great a/c for DL to get and even use on some of the thinner routes where they are using RJs from LAX and CRJs from SLC on the longer flights where they can carry more cargo and passengers at the same time making everyone comfortable and happy in a much better a/c.

LACA773
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:56 am



Quoting NASBWI (Reply 1):
If 100-seaters are allowed to be flown by DL mainline, the 190/195 might be a good fit for them.

Bombardier C-110 would be even better fit.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 1):
I'd be willing to guess that Boeing would try their hardest to sell them the 737-600 to supplement their 737 fleet.

Not going to happen, unless DL starts business-class only transcontinental flights. 737-600 suffers from the same disadvantage as A318: too heavy for its size.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:26 am



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):
until Bombardier develops the C-series, with a new engine and composite construction; it just might make the E-jets obsolete



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):
Agree with you on this one - if Bombardier can pull of the C, then it might in-fact make the Ejets obsolete.

The entire 4 aircraft E-Jet family is smaller capacity sized than the proposed 2 aircraft CSeries... with the C110 being even slightly larger than the E195 (and there obviously is no E-Jet that competes with the proposed C130). So the CSeries will certainly not make the E-Jets obsolete... not even maybe.  Smile
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 22):
Never- wholly mackarel, their hubs are insane.

No kidding. Did you even read the thread in its entirety yet?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 22):
Really? Rumor around here is that the deal is dead. And I can't see anything to substantiate EITHER rumor- neither have any credibility as far as I can tell. I hope it goes through- as a passenger, I enjoy Delta's MD-90s.

And we all know how the "rumors around here" can be.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):
About the same time you became DL's CFO, apparently, since you're signing papers in Beijing.

Delta has already conducted engineering inspections of these aircraft. As for the "deal" - no, of course it isn't finalized, but is in the process of it. As to the eventual outcome, correct - no one knows yet.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
I wonder if Delta needs more international widebody capacity, what is there to prevent them from acquring some second-hand 767s? Delta operates both GE- and Pratt-powered 767-300s, so engine commonality isn't much of an issue. Perhaps exit layout could be an issue, however, Delta operates 767-300ERs with two of the three exit layouts that have been offered on the 767-300. Delta's normal 767-300 layout features two sets of standard-size exits and two sets of overwing exit. This is the most common layout found with U.S.-based airlines. The ex-Gulf Air/Asiana aircraft feature three sets of standard-size exits and one set of overwing exits. The only layout that Delta doesn't operate is the type with four sets of standard-size exits, which is operated by a few European airlines.

If you "wonder" about this you obviously don't have a clue. The only large aircraft Delta will be acquiring are 777s - definitely new builds and POSSIBLY used aircraft coming off lease with other carriers.

[Edited 2007-11-27 03:28:27]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:16 pm



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
The 737-700s will primarily be used to Latin America, which is completely different than what the 737-200s and 737-300s were used for. They will be ETOPS-rated and will be equipped with winglets.

Initial routes:

Atlanta to: Bonaire, St. Kitts, and Curacao.
New York (JFK) to: Panama City, Port of Spain, and Guatemala City (SAQ).

The 73Gs will all be ATL based initially but will be flown with ATL and JFK 737NG crews.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:54 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 30):
Delta has already conducted engineering inspections of these aircraft. As for the "deal" - no, of course it isn't finalized, but is in the process of it. As to the eventual outcome, correct - no one knows yet.

These birds are N-registered I believe - making them FAA certified?

9 is the # I believe.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:10 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 29):
So the CSeries will certainly not make the E-Jets obsolete... not even maybe.

They could, if the CSeries 110 had lower operating costs than the E190 on a per trip as well as per seat basis, for instance. If you make more money flying a CSeries at 60% load factor than an E-jet at 85%, the bigger plane has made the smaller one obsolete.

Of course the CSeries would have to:

- actually exist;
- have an engine that actually exists;
- actually cost 20%+ less to own and operate.

Realistically, there will be no CSeries before 2012 (if at all). And if most the "game changing economics" resides in the engines - there is nothing stopping a NG 190 from being made available with the same engine technology.

And then there is the whole "why would I add a fleet type between my RJs and large narrowbodies when I can go from 120 to 200 with 737RS or A320NG?".
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:15 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 32):
These birds are N-registered I believe - making them FAA certified?

Source?
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:37 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 34):
Source?

Not N-Registered, my mistake.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:03 pm

Unless one of you guys are the CEO or CFO of DL, keep in mind this is all speculation. IMHO, as many have said, the only aircraft that DL will be purchasing in the future will be widebodies for their international routes. Completing the Chinese MD-90 purchase might go through, but let's hope some sanity enters into the picture.

The other method of acquiring aircraft is through a purchase of another airline, which is what DL will do sometime in 2008. Who (could be 2) it will be is anyone's guess. Not AA, but I would think all of the others are under consideration. Remember there could be a purchase; a reconfiguration; and then an agreed sell/spin-off.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:17 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 36):
Unless one of you guys are the CEO or CFO of DL, keep in mind this is all speculation.

No, it's not speculation.

For those interested, Ed Bastian, the President and CFO of Delta has confirmed the negotiations. In a chat transcript with employees the question is posed, "Are we getting any more MD-90's?"

He replies with:

Quote:
We are looking at 12 MD 90s in China. We have conducted engineering inspections and are in negotiations to acquire these aircraft.

Any questions, Gsosbee?
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:41 pm

DL already has some E jets from Embraer, but i think it is the smaller -175 and i dont know if it is operated bu DL or one of their regional carriers, so if they like it they might order more. The E jets are really the only ones around this capacity that can remain profitable because the plane is made for that capacity. Boeing cant really get mad about the gentlemen's agreement if they ordered the E jet because it is more of a regional jet and the closest boeing has to offer is the 736 and it isnt that great
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:43 pm



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 38):
DL already has some E jets from Embraer, but i think it is the smaller -175 and i dont know if it is operated bu DL or one of their regional carriers, so if they like it they might order more.

No. And no. The aircraft are EMB-170s, operated by Shuttle America (a Republic company). The 170s are being swapped with 175s in the near future as well.

We wouldn't operate the 170 anyway as a mainline aircraft. Ever.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
pilotboi
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:50 pm



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 38):
DL already has some E jets from Embraer, but i think it is the smaller -175 and i dont know if it is operated bu DL or one of their regional carriers

Shuttle America operates 16 EMB-170s under the Delta Connection name.

ERJs are operated by ExpressJet, Freedom, and Chautauqua.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:35 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 10):
Says who? Since when is Delta hurting for domestic capacity?

I think we definitely are hurting for domestic capacity. The 737-200's were replaced by a hodgepodge of regional jets operated by anyone with a certificate. We've basically ceded a large portion of the world's largest aviation market to the low cost carriers and RJ operators. Management wants to try to make the passenger think he's on DL by putting the DL inflight magazine in the seat backs and changing some PA's but the only people who really care about DL's passengers and the long term viability of the company are DL employees.

We need to give the customers a consistent product throughout and the only way to do that is with DL aircraft, crews, and support flying DL passengers. A 100 seat mainline aircraft is a sorely needed requirement for taking back the brand.
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:40 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 37):
Any questions, Gsosbee?

The speculation was on a potential 100 seater for Delta which is the subject of this topic.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:03 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 42):
The speculation was on a potential 100 seater for Delta which is the subject of this topic.

My mistake. That being said, this weekly Delta "what-if" thread by 1337Delta764 has a number of "subjects."

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 41):
I think we definitely are hurting for domestic capacity. The 737-200's were replaced by a hodgepodge of regional jets operated by anyone with a certificate. We've basically ceded a large portion of the world's largest aviation market to the low cost carriers and RJ operators. Management wants to try to make the passenger think he's on DL by putting the DL inflight magazine in the seat backs and changing some PA's but the only people who really care about DL's passengers and the long term viability of the company are DL employees.

We need to give the customers a consistent product throughout and the only way to do that is with DL aircraft, crews, and support flying DL passengers. A 100 seat mainline aircraft is a sorely needed requirement for taking back the brand.

The 732/733 retirement was FOR the long-term viability of the company and its employees.

So - what markets currently served by multiple daily 50-seat CRJ-200s can support a multiple-daily 100-seat aircraft - essentially a doubling of capacity? And, of those markets - which ones currently have mainline AND connection service? Justify your post.

It's almost as if you'd rather see such markets have no service AT ALL or served by mainline equipment ONLY.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:08 pm

Additionally, I would venture to say that the traveling public is smart enough to realize that they AREN'T on a mainline aircraft when "Operated by Delta Connection carrier ExpressJet" is printed on their itinerary upon reservation, printed on their boarding pass upon check-in, painted next to their ERJ's boarding door, and announced on the PA before, during, and after boarding.

They aren't "tricked" into thinking they're flying a Delta aircraft.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
727forever
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:50 pm

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:12 pm



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 20):

By the way...rumor has it the deal is not (yet) finalized. (Ever wonder why the only airline in the world that could possibly want MD90s hasn't announced a deal yet, after months of rumors?)

If the deal does through,the airplanes won't be ready until late 2008. My understanding is that there is some heavy mx required to bring the aircraft up to DL standards. Why would DL be talking about it now and letting the whole world know what it is up to in the highly competitive domestic market?

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 41):
I think we definitely are hurting for domestic capacity. The 737-200's were replaced by a hodgepodge of regional jets operated by anyone with a certificate. We've basically ceded a large portion of the world's largest aviation market to the low cost carriers and RJ operators. Management wants to try to make the passenger think he's on DL by putting the DL inflight magazine in the seat backs and changing some PA's but the only people who really care about DL's passengers and the long term viability of the company are DL employees.

We need to give the customers a consistent product throughout and the only way to do that is with DL aircraft, crews, and support flying DL passengers. A 100 seat ma

 yes 
727forever
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 41):
I think we definitely are hurting for domestic capacity. The 737-200's were replaced by a hodgepodge of regional jets operated by anyone with a certificate. We've basically ceded a large portion of the world's largest aviation market to the low cost carriers and RJ operators. Management wants to try to make the passenger think he's on DL by putting the DL inflight magazine in the seat backs and changing some PA's but the only people who really care about DL's passengers and the long term viability of the company are DL employees.

We need to give the customers a consistent product throughout and the only way to do that is with DL aircraft, crews, and support flying DL passengers. A 100 seat mainline aircraft is a sorely needed requirement for taking back the brand.

Hindsight being 20-20; maybe somebody should've said/thought of this up back when Boeing was still producing the 717. Yes, DL's 732s (& 733s) were still flying at the time; but the intended market for the 717 was indeed a replacement not only for carriers' DC-9s (which seemed to the only type that drew orders from airlines) but for the remaining F-100s and the 732s flying out there as well.

Personally, I'm a bit surprised that DL never ordered the type (the 717 that is); especially given their long history w/MDD and the fact that the new T-tail was adopted by Boeing.

It also would've/could've thrown some havoc towards their hometown rival (FL) in terms of plane deliveries.  stirthepot 

As far as the E-190/195s operating under DL mainline is concerned; could DL argue w/Boeing that the 736 isn't up to snuff for what they're looking for in a 100-pass. aircraft?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:31 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 46):
As far as the E-190/195s operating under DL mainline is concerned; could DL argue w/Boeing that the 736 isn't up to snuff for what they're looking for in a 100-pass. aircraft?

Sure we could. But considering the type hasn't been modified or upgraded substantially since its launch in the 1990's to improve its economic performance I doubt Boeing would invest in it at this point.

Performance issues aside, however, if there is any 100-seat aircraft out there Delta would buy today it would be the 737-600 - bar none.

Why? The costs of implementing the type would be substantially LESS than an E190/195 or A318 order. Training air crew on the 737-600 would be a simple matter of using existing 737-800 training devices with follow-on "familiarization" training (such is the case with the upcoming 73G deliveries AND the recently added ETOPS 757s).

American retired their F-100s, as did US Airways (again, F-100s). In the case of AA and US they "compensated" by increasing regional flying just as DL has.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
surfdog75
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:46 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 43):
The 732/733 retirement was FOR the long-term viability of the company and its employees.

So - what markets currently served by multiple daily 50-seat CRJ-200s can support a multiple-daily 100-seat aircraft - essentially a doubling of capacity? And, of those markets - which ones currently have mainline AND connection service? Justify your post.

It's almost as if you'd rather see such markets have no service AT ALL or served by mainline equipment ONLY.

More koolaid? The retirement of older inefficient aircraft may have reduced the company's costs temporarily but don't believe for a minute that replacing long flown city pairs with RJs or eliminating them is good for the long term viability of the company. The goal of management has always been to outsource DL flying to the lowest bidders. We'll never be a world class airline when 60% of our domestic departures are flown by other companies who often operate with very, very inexperienced personnel. Look at the stats our "partners" post month after month. The best thing management could do is start a campaign to retake the brand that would start with a 100 seat mainline jet and begin to transfer all flying done on 70 seats and above back to mainline. Replacing the inflight magazine doesn't cut it when your copilot has 500 hours and your bags end up in another city.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 44):
Additionally, I would venture to say that the traveling public is smart enough to realize that they AREN'T on a mainline aircraft when "Operated by Delta Connection carrier ExpressJet" is printed on their itinerary upon reservation, printed on their boarding pass upon check-in, painted next to their ERJ's boarding door, and announced on the PA before, during, and after boarding.

They aren't "tricked" into thinking they're flying a Delta aircraft.

They may not have been tricked but when they purchase a ticket on Delta.com they fully expect to and have a right to hold us all to the same standards. When things go wrong it's Delta that failed, not BigSkywestComASAFreeRepubliExpressjet airlines. The only way to ensure a consistent passenger experience thoughout is to have the best airline employees out there maintaining the jets and flying the customers.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: 100-seater Aircraft For Delta?

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 48):
They may not have been tricked but when they purchase a ticket on Delta.com they fully expect to and have a right to hold us all to the same standards. When things go wrong it's Delta that failed, not BigSkywestComASAFreeRepubliExpressjet airlines. The only way to ensure a consistent passenger experience thoughout is to have the best airline employees out there maintaining the jets and flying the customers.

 checkmark  I agree with you. I never said I supported the recent surge in outsourced regional flying. And certainly the "long term viability" of the company is in our best interests. But this phenomenon isn't unique to Delta, either. It's industry-wide.

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 48):
The retirement of older inefficient aircraft may have reduced the company's costs temporarily but don't believe for a minute that replacing long flown city pairs with RJs or eliminating them is good for the long term viability of the company.

Tell me - what city pairs were eliminated as a result of the 737 retirement? I think you'll find that number to be absolutely zero.

[Edited 2007-11-27 11:04:39]
Change is: one airline, six continents!