USAirALB
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Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:42 pm

In the Albany times union article about AA selling Eagle, Michael Boyd who heads an aviation consultant company in Evergreen,CO says that The 50/44/30 seat jets are a declining sector. He says that ALB/BUF may end up getting AA metal after 2008. ALB Spokesperson Doug Myers says that this is an outstanding opportunity for American to add more service to ALB.
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USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:00 pm

wynt albany recently reported
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:23 pm

While I certainly hope this is true, I wouldn't hold my breath up there upstate.

Of all of the upstate markets, I think BUF definitely has the best shot at getting 1-2 daily MD80s back - probably along with keeping 1-2 daily Eagle flights. They'd like do with BUF something like they do with DFW-SDF: have the MD80s operate the early morning and late afternoon/evening departures from BUF, and Eagle in the middle of the day. As for the rest of the upstate markets (ALB, ROC, SYR), I think that if AA had stuck around, or if AA is now willing to really commit to the markets, all of them could easily support 1-2 daily MD80s from ORD. The demographics of upstate aren't exactly wonderful - shrinking/aging populations, etc. - but there are still lots of people there. And while Southwest is huge in some of the upstate markets, I still think AA could make them work if they came in with a 2-class product on some of their flights. Interestingly, they would face less of the problem of UA competition - as UA has now largely followed AA's lead in downgrading most of their flying to upstate to UA Express.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:25 pm

Don't hold your breathe for this to happen anytime soon. And if markets do get them back, Buffalo and White Plains would likely come first, IMO.
a.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:32 pm

There may be some kind of restriction related to their going all-Eagle and making their local staff all Eagle earlier in this decade, a certain amount of time before they can fly mainline into the UNY stations again. AA experts and/or certain airport employees (e.g. AERoc) should be able to explain the situation us.

See the AA selling Eagle thread for some discussion of their scope situation and the draconian 25-frame limit on 70-seaters. I'd imagine the Upstate-ORD routes would be well-suited for 70- and 90-seaters, if AA can get rid of or at least loosen their scope clause. Several in the other thread said AA's failure to go after that clause in the 2003 negotiations is really coming back to hurt them. Fuel's making all those 37- and 44-seat higher-CASM ERJ's less attractive.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:34 pm



Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 4):
There may be some kind of restriction related to their going all-Eagle and making their local staff all Eagle earlier in this decade, a certain amount of time before they can fly mainline into the UNY stations again.

I could be mistaken - and others would surely know better (and don't call me Surely!) - that the restriction was that once a station went Eagle, it couldn't get mainline back for 18 or 24 months (not sure which).

However, in many former mainline stations that have lapsed to Eagle, AA has not really shown any interest in returning mainline service - even though the market could probably support it - once the 18- or 24-month restriction ended. I'm thinking of places like CLE, PIT, BUF, ALB, DSM, etc.
 
cs03
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:42 pm

Seeing that United has some mainline service between ALB/ORD, one would think that American would do the same to grab more market share on the route.
 
USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:49 pm

I mean think about it, ALB/BUF could support more than 3 daily 50 seaters. They could definilty support a once/twice daily MD80/738
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MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:58 pm



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 7):
I mean think about it, ALB/BUF could support more than 3 daily 50 seaters. They could definilty support a once/twice daily MD80/738

It's not a quesiton of supporting, it is a question of AA properly allocating it's resources. ALB and BUF are not priority.
a.
 
AJMIA
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:42 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Don't hold your breathe for this to happen anytime soon. And if markets do get them back, Buffalo and White Plains would likely come first, IMO.

Not very often you see BUF and HPN in the same sentence.

I would love to see AA fly...

BUF - ORD mainline upgrade
BUF - JFK Eagle
BUF- MIA mainline
BUF - DFW mainline

HPN - ORD mainline upgrade
HPN - RDU reintroduce Eagle
HPN - MIA mainline

The only problem is everyone and their uncle seems to be adding service to HPN and I believe they are going to be maxed out on their passenger caps soon.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:01 am



Quoting AJMIA (Reply 9):
The only problem is everyone and their uncle seems to be adding service to HPN

So once again AA misses the boat.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 9):
and I believe they are going to be maxed out on their passenger caps soon.

Thank you NIMBYs!  Sad
 
AJMIA
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
Thank you NIMBYs!

How true. And I really do not understand their objections.
The newer generation jets are so quiet I can't imagine how they could desturb anyone.
I used to live in Westchester and I could barely hear the buzz of the planes when they flew over my house unless I was outside in the yard.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:30 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 9):
The only problem is everyone and their uncle seems to be adding service to HPN

So once again AA misses the boat.

There's no missing the boat. AA's 738s can fly to White Plains. AA can add 738 service if they please, replacing current RJ service. A primary reason HPN is Eagle is because their MD80s are not allowed at HPN, and 738s are not based at ORD.
a.
 
commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:32 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
There's no missing the boat. AA's 738s can fly to White Plains. AA can add 738 service if they please, replacing current RJ service. A primary reason HPN is Eagle is because their MD80s are not allowed at HPN, and 738s are not based at ORD.

What I meant is that if AA had a viable 70- or 90-seater (read: Embraer EJet), that wouldn't be a problem.
 
AJMIA
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:40 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
MD80s are not allowed at HPN

Why no M80s at HPN?

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:03 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
What I meant is that if AA had a viable 70- or 90-seater (read: Embraer EJet), that wouldn't be a problem.

No, it wouldn't, true. It would allow them to find a better substitute. Though the real problem is that the MD80s can't fly there. The 738s were pulled because the 738s were pulled from O'Hare, not because the route can't support the 738s. It did, and still will.

I think AA would have a home-run with MIA/DFW-HPN, 1x daily each on 738s. Too bad they their route planning department lacks even the remotest risk taking, and I don't even thinking flying either is a "risk" (South Florida already has seven daily non-stops to HPN, but none from Miami).

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 14):
Why no M80s at HPN?

NIMBYs. They are "too loud." Right before the 738 phase-out, AA brought in an S80 test flight to HPN and they were told no. Even after all the 738s were wiped off of the ORD schedule, AA kept the ORD-HPN flights as 738s in reservation systems because they were hoping to replace them with MD80s pending permission.
a.
 
commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:07 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
The 738s were pulled because the 738s were pulled from O'Hare, not because the route can't support the 738s. It did, and still will.

Of course. HPN-ORD used to be an incredibly high-value business route for AA, as they got tons of corporate business from IBM over in Purchase, plus all the funds up in CT right across the border. Now, of course, they've lost much of that business. Sad.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Too bad they their route planning department lacks even the remotest risk taking

Oh please, I think we all know that "risky" for AA is putting a 757 on DFW-ORD. That's about their level of risk tolerance at this point, scary is that may be, and even that would probably only last for 15 minutes before the either lost an appetite for it or grounded the aircraft to further shrink the fleet. Pathetic.  Sad
 
ckfred
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:33 am



Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
Of all of the upstate markets, I think BUF definitely has the best shot at getting 1-2 daily MD80s back - probably along with keeping 1-2 daily Eagle flights.

Back in the 70s, ORD-BUF had DC-10s.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
However, in many former mainline stations that have lapsed to Eagle, AA has not really shown any interest in returning mainline service - even though the market could probably support it - once the 18- or 24-month restriction ended. I'm thinking of places like CLE, PIT, BUF, ALB, DSM, etc.

My wife flies ORD-PIT a lot. Based on the size of the standby lists, ORD-PIT could easily support CRJs. With US dropping its ORD-PIT flights, it seems to me that AA should either upgrade 1 flight to an MD-80 or at least add 1 more roundtrip. UA flies every thing from CRJ to 757 on the route.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
A primary reason HPN is Eagle is because their MD80s are not allowed at HPN,



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
NIMBYs. They are "too loud." Right before the 738 phase-out, AA brought in an S80 test flight to HPN and they were told no.

IIRC, only the federal government can regulate aircraft noise. So, if the MD-80 is Stage III compliant, it should be able to fly into any airport that accepts commercial jet transports. Not that AA is about to spend money on litigation just to get MD-80s into one airport, but I would prefer to represent AA over Westchester County, if I wanted to pick the side most likely to win.

But my question is how much noisier is the MD-80 compared to the 737-800? I live under the departure pattern for 22L at ORD, and the MD-80 doesn't seem to be appreciably noisier than the 737NG, the 737 Classic, or the Airbus narrowbody series.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Oh please, I think we all know that "risky" for AA is putting a 757 on DFW-ORD. That's about their level of risk tolerance at this point, scary is that may be, and even that would probably only last for 15 minutes before the either lost an appetite for it or grounded the aircraft to further shrink the fleet. Pathetic.

Just an FYI, but AA went to mostly MD-80s on ORD-DFW in the early 90s during an industry downturn. At one time, AA flew everything from the F100 to the DC-10 on the route, but when a bunch of DC-10s were retired, AA went to a shuttle-style operation with the MD-80s. Once in a while, AA has put a 757 on a morning or evening rush-hour flight, and there has been an MD-11/777 roundtrip for repositioning for at least 10 years.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:36 am



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
IIRC, only the federal government can regulate aircraft noise. So, if the MD-80 is Stage III compliant, it should be able to fly into any airport that accepts commercial jet transports. Not that AA is about to spend money on litigation just to get MD-80s into one airport, but I would prefer to represent AA over Westchester County, if I wanted to pick the side most likely to win.

Airports are allowed to further regulate airplane noise as much as they want, and at HPN, they do.
a.
 
commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:49 am



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
Back in the 70s, ORD-BUF had DC-10s.

Sad, isn't it? Now they're lucky if they get a few 70-seat RJs. Times change.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
IIRC, only the federal government can regulate aircraft noise. So, if the MD-80 is Stage III compliant, it should be able to fly into any airport that accepts commercial jet transports.

As MAH said, airports can regulate noise as much as they want, as long as they still comply with the mandate that they can't restrict competitive access to the airport if they receive federal dollars. Airports restrict noise all the time. Just ask Orange County - whose noise restrictions are about as bad as Westchester.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
Just an FYI, but AA went to mostly MD-80s on ORD-DFW in the early 90s during an industry downturn. At one time, AA flew everything from the F100 to the DC-10 on the route, but when a bunch of DC-10s were retired, AA went to a shuttle-style operation with the MD-80s. Once in a while, AA has put a 757 on a morning or evening rush-hour flight, and there has been an MD-11/777 roundtrip for repositioning for at least 10 years.

I know, I was being facetious (though not by much). I remember when there were Fokkers and 757s on DFW-ORD. I was commenting on how ridiculously conservative and risk-averse AA has become, to the point that I'm now pretty much convinced that they're determined to give their business to other airlines. I haven't come up with a better explanation.
 
panam330
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:42 am

Too bad SYR isn't mentioned. That of course doesn't mean they won't get mainline, but it's probably not going to happen. I for one would rather see MIA and JFK-SYR added (for personal gain, of course  Wink) before mainline, but I'd be very happy to see an MD80 parked at their gate every day.
 
ripcordd
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:22 pm

I think after 2008 the recall rights for the stations that went all eagle expire so they can add mainline back without recalling AA employees there if they do it before the rights expire they would have to recall AA mainline employees which they don't want to do. After this expires not sure when but you will see BUF to be one of the first with a 80 back.
 
PVD757
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:45 pm

I thought the same thing about AA returning to PVD after the 1 year recall was up here. It will be 2 years this April....
 
EddieDude
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:06 pm

On a semi-related subject, which airlines serve Ithaca at the moment?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
panam330
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:32 pm



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 23):
On a semi-related subject, which airlines serve Ithaca at the moment?

US and NW. NW to DTW, and US to PHL and LGA, IIRC.
 
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dvincent
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:01 pm



Quoting Cs03 (Reply 6):

Seeing that United has some mainline service between ALB/ORD, one would think that American would do the same to grab more market share on the route.

At BDL, United has twice daily roundtrips on 757s to ORD in addition to an A319/A320 here and there. AA? It's all Eagle. Used to be MD-80s. A300s to SJU are now 757s. "The Shrink" is happening everywhere. ALB could definitely support some mainline but I just don't see it happening.
From the Mind of Minolta
 
PVD757
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:51 pm



Quoting Dvincent (Reply 25):
"The Shrink" is happening everywhere

you can say that agin!!
 
USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:53 pm

How is BDL-SJU a priority over ALB/BUF-ORD?
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MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 27):
How is BDL-SJU a priority over ALB/BUF-ORD?

Hartford has the fourth largest Caribbean immigrant community in the country, which is why AA flies BDL-SJU.

[Edited 2007-11-30 13:54:47]
a.
 
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dvincent
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
Hartford has the fourth largest Caribbean immigrant community in the country, which is why AA flies BDL-SJU.

That is correct, and nearby Springfield also enters into the equation. Hartford has a massive Puerto Rican population.

My understanding is that even though the A300 was always packed, there were frequent MX problems and delays that probably made it not as economical to keep the A300 going even though the loads were always high. Not to mention fuel costs.

It was the last regular widebody pax flight at BDL.

[Edited 2007-11-30 14:13:19]
From the Mind of Minolta
 
USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:26 pm

Even if AA does start to "beef up" upstate services this is what we should see:

Mainline flights to HPN/BUF and probably ALB. If those flights workout, we should also see ROC/SYR.

ALB should be given its shot at a DFW flight.(Why did BUF lose it?)

BUF/ALB should be given back a RDU flight. There are over 150 terminating daily pax. This may be on Eagle

ALB/BUF to MIA. At this time ALB has no service to south florida.
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bok269
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:42 pm



Quoting AJMIA (Reply 9):
HPN - ORD mainline upgrade
HPN - RDU reintroduce Eagle
HPN - MIA mainline

MIA could be a gold mine if marketed correctly. MIA is one of the few Florida destinations not served from HPN, and with AA's Carribean presence from MIA, it could be successful.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 9):
The only problem is everyone and their uncle seems to be adding service to HPN and I believe they are going to be maxed out on their passenger caps soon.

Hopefully the county will wise up and expand the terminal past what is already under way. HPN could prove to be helpful in relieving NYC congestion, if only by 10-15 departures per day.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 11):
How true. And I really do not understand their objections.
The newer generation jets are so quiet I can't imagine how they could desturb anyone.
I used to live in Westchester and I could barely hear the buzz of the planes when they flew over my house unless I was outside in the yard.

 checkmark  I'm under the approach path to LGA, and a committee has been formed in my area to try to get the FAA to reroute the aircraft. It's one of the the worst wastes of time and resources I have ever seen. Unfortunately, HPN is bordered by some very expensive real estate, and the residents there have a very strong influence.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
I think AA would have a home-run with MIA/DFW-HPN, 1x daily each on 738s. Too bad they their route planning department lacks even the remotest risk taking, and I don't even thinking flying either is a "risk" (South Florida already has seven daily non-stops to HPN, but none from Miami).

MIA could be a gold mine if properly marketed. The O & D market, as well as the possible connections to the Caribbean would be substantial.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:46 pm



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 31):
MIA could be a gold mine if marketed correctly

could not agree with you more, but i think south florida is already highly served from HPN.

The route would be more profitable from BUF/ALB
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kstateinALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:45 am



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 7):
mean think about it, ALB/BUF could support more than 3 daily 50 seaters. They could definilty support a once/twice daily MD80/738

Well, UA has a huge market share here, I honestly don't see it as absolutely necessary for AA to bring back mainline. It would be great but not necessary. And BTW, a once daily MD80 is going to get LESS seats than 3x ER4. What would be the real point of it?

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
Mainline flights to HPN/BUF and probably ALB. If those flights workout, we should also see ROC/SYR

BUF would be the first I guess.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
ALB should be given its shot at a DFW flight.(Why did BUF lose it?)

See, I really don't see how it would work out. If anyone had to hit the Texas market, it would be CO. I don't see a DFW flight happening due to how BUF worked out.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
BUF/ALB should be given back a RDU flight. There are over 150 terminating daily pax. This may be on Eagle

Good point there, IMO. Could be done with 2x daily Eagle.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
ALB/BUF to MIA. At this time ALB has no service to south florida.

I don't see AA as being the first to get there either. Either US to FLL, or WN to FLL.
ALB, DTW, ORD, MDW, MCI, JFK, LGA, LHR, MAD, MSP, IAD, DCA, MCO, ATL, CVG, TUL, MHK, PHL, PIT, DFW, DAL, CLT, IND, AUS,
 
USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:52 am



Quoting KstateinALB (Reply 33):
See, I really don't see how it would work out. If anyone had to hit the Texas market, it would be CO. I don't see a DFW flight happening due to how BUF worked out.

Yes but it did work out for Harrisburgh,SYR,ROC it could probably work out here too

Quoting KstateinALB (Reply 33):
Well, UA has a huge market share here, I honestly don't see it as absolutely necessary for AA to bring back mainline. It would be great but not necessary. And BTW, a once daily MD80 is going to get LESS seats than 3x ER4. What would be the real point of it?

I mean like a daily MD80 to complement the 3x daily ER4.

Quoting KstateinALB (Reply 33):
I don't see AA as being the first to get there either. Either US to FLL, or WN to FLL.

As much as I LOVE US, since they arent bringing back there seasonal service to MCO,FLL wont be comming
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
AussieItaliano
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:04 am



Quoting AJMIA (Reply 11):
How true. And I really do not understand their objections.

People who live near HPN will object to just about anything!!!!! That whole Westchester/Fairfield County area has its nose in the air higher than the nose of any plane to take off from HPN.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 31):
Unfortunately, HPN is bordered by some very expensive real estate, and the residents there have a very strong influence.

Exactly.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Airports are allowed to further regulate airplane noise as much as they want, and at HPN, they do.

The other airport that I can think of where the noise restrictions are intense is SNA. Pretty much the same reasons as HPN too. Of course it makes for a fun take off!

I wonder how long it will be before Privatair serves HPN-SNA!!!!!!
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
Yankees
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:31 am

Heres a pic of the 738 @ HPN

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2236/2076393165_3dd5de0806_b.jpg
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USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:18 am



Quoting Yankees (Reply 36):
Heres a pic of the 738 @ HPN

looks great-now if we can only get that back!
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MAH4546
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:41 am



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 32):
could not agree with you more, but i think south florida is already highly served from HPN.

The route would be more profitable from BUF/ALB

Sorry, but no way. South Florida-White Plains is a high-yielding route with lot's of premium traffic that BUF and ALB combined couldn't match. Then add that up with potential Caribbean connections, and MIA-HPN is a potential goldmine for AA.
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USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:43 am

really? wow i didnt know that
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baw2198
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:47 am

If AA were smart they would go mainline out of ROC with 2x daily to DFW and skip mainline to ORD all together. As delay pron as ORD is, AA would start taking the market share from UA at ROC if they did this IMHO. Besides, why compete with WN and UA at BUF?
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commavia
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:51 am



Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 40):
If AA were smart they would go mainline out of ROC with 2x daily to DFW and skip mainline to ORD all together.

Indeed, if AA marketed it correctly, I think they could be immensely successful in all of the upstate markets - BUF, ROC, SYR, and perhaps even ALB - with a daily MD80 or (gasp!) perhaps a 70-seater going to DFW. The ease and convenience of DFW compared with the hellish weather/ATC chaos that is Chicago (O'Hare or Midway) would give DFW an edge, and the one-stop connections AA could offer out of DFW to the west and south would be virtually unparalleled for these markets.

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 40):
Besides, why compete with WN and UA at BUF?

BUF is a larger market, though not by much.
 
siromega
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:34 am

My mom and dad don't like the ERJs so now they fly WN LAS-BUF (N/S). If they brought the MD80 back, they probably wouldn't mind using AA again (as we have since the 80s), or at least check the fares.
 
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VIflyer
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:55 am

No, one of the reasons why AA never flew the MD80 into HPN is that the a/c is physically to long to park at the terminal at HPN. The 738 length is 129ft 6in, the A320 (that B6 flies into there) is 123ft 3in, but the MD82/3 is 147ft 10in. If the MD80 were to park at the terminal the tail would hang past the taxiway/ramp line and extend over the active taxiway. When the 738 parked it barely stayed inside the line.

Also when AA did the base simplification plan system wide all the 738 stopped coming to ORD and the only alternative was MQ 's CRJ700 and ERJ's.

As for noise NW use to fly up to 2004/5 use to fly a DC-9 into HPN and the GII/III that are based there ain't really the quietest birds in the world.

Vi
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AussieItaliano
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:10 am



Quoting VIflyer (Reply 43):
As for noise NW use to fly up to 2004/5 use to fly a DC-9 into HPN

Oh yeah, I forgot! I've flown on those out of HPN before. If they weren't banned because of noise, then AA's MadDogs wouldn't be either.

Interesting about the length issue, I would never have thought that was what it came down to. It does make me wonder about what MAH4546 said (quoted below). I wonder if AA was trying to get HPN to reconfigure the gates or something (so the M80 could fit).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
NIMBYs. They are "too loud." Right before the 738 phase-out, AA brought in an S80 test flight to HPN and they were told no. Even after all the 738s were wiped off of the ORD schedule, AA kept the ORD-HPN flights as 738s in reservation systems because they were hoping to replace them with MD80s pending permission.

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VIflyer
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:36 am

Doubt that AA or any other airline could get Westchester County to modify the terminal so that an 80 or any longer/larger aircraft could access it. When the new (current) terminal was approved and built it, the waiting area was purposely built small so that there would be an artificial cap on how many aircraft could use it. The made it small enough than if more than a few aircraft were there at the same time, too many people would be in the waiting area hence exceeding the county fire regulation on the amount of occupancy in the given area.

Ironically with the addition of FL and B6 to HPN ,the waiting area which on a busy day looks like some sort of refuge staging area where you can't walk from one end to the other with out stepping over people and/or bumping into many more,. The county was forced to expand the waiting area to cope with the extra load. Me wonder if the PANYNJ buying SWF and the possibility of HPN loosing some of it's passenger, possessed them to make that move.

As for the noise, HPN might have squawked at the "noise" of the MD80's but I was informed by a Manager their that the length of the A/C was the real determining factor.

Vi
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Yankees
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:05 pm

Heres an old pic of NW @ Hpn (hometown airport)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2281/2077288145_50784f9861_b.jpg

Is there any chance the ARJ's or the new CR9, E75 would fly to HPN from MSP,DTW again. I think if they did a 1x daily flight on the E75 to MEM it would be profitable. Now NW just uses CRJ's for HPN.
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USAirALB
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:45 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 41):
Indeed, if AA marketed it correctly, I think they could be immensely successful in all of the upstate markets - BUF, ROC, SYR, and perhaps even ALB - with a daily MD80 or (gasp!) perhaps a 70-seater going to DFW. The ease and convenience of DFW compared with the hellish weather/ATC chaos that is Chicago (O'Hare or Midway) would give DFW an edge, and the one-stop connections AA could offer out of DFW to the west and south would be virtually unparalleled for these markets.

Albany is buiser than SYR. They should just skip ORD together. Upstate NY AA needs DFW to be profitable.
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CIDFlyer
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:54 pm



Quoting Yankees (Reply 46):
Is there any chance the ARJ's or the new CR9, E75 would fly to HPN from MSP,DTW again. I think if they did a 1x daily flight on the E75 to MEM it would be profitable. Now NW just uses CRJ's for HPN.

NW no longer flies the ARJ, but they could possibly bring the E75 for CR9 into the market. I doubt that they would add MEM though.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 47):
They should just skip ORD together. Upstate NY AA needs DFW to be profitable.

exactly, with ORD constrained as it is they should be trying to link these markets to DFW over ORD. I suppose the only reason they keep ORD is to remain competitive to UA.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Rumor:Upstate NY To Get AA Mainline Again

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:25 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
While I certainly hope this is true, I wouldn't hold my breath up there upstate.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Don't hold your breathe for this to happen anytime soon. And if markets do get them back, Buffalo and White Plains would likely come first, IMO.

I dont think any current aircraft in the AA fleet can serve HPN....also just cuz AA is selling eagle doesnt mean mainline for SYR, ROC and ALB....I mean UA doesnt own their UAX, and they dont fly mainline there either

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