Orion737
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Go!s Market Share

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:29 pm

How are they doing, playing with the two big boys. I think the CRJ might be a bit restrictive for hand luggage and hold luggage/freight. I dont see why Go are so determined to squeeze the two loyal carriers within the islands. Why would they stay if they are making losses?
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:11 pm

Their Load Factor has been around 65% except for their first month of operation, and during the summer when they offered $1 sales int he last days of each month to boost their loads (I believe they got it into the 70s or low 80s....but I don't care to look it up).

-Aloha!

[Edited 2007-12-04 13:12:19]
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:42 pm

Interesting... if their load factor is 65% and their CASM is about $0.20, which is REAL conservative, they'd need an average one-way fare of $57 to make money (assuming the average stage length is 150 miles, which I think might be a little long). If we cut the average stage length to 100 miles (which is short), they'd need an average fare of $43. That doesn't bode well for them...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:17 am



Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
Why would they stay if they are making losses?

Jonathan Ornstein's ego?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Interesting... if their load factor is 65% and their CASM is about $0.20, which is REAL conservative, they'd need an average one-way fare of $57 to make money (assuming the average stage length is 150 miles, which I think might be a little long). If we cut the average stage length to 100 miles (which is short), they'd need an average fare of $43. That doesn't bode well for them...

I don't remember the exact figures, but I think the study Sabre did (commissioned by Aloha) put Go's break even fare at the high end of the $50-60 range, higher than both Hawaiian and Aloha (Aloha was lowest).
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:09 am

Here we go again with the Go! bashing; as stated before, Go! hasn't done anything that HA or Aloha haven't done to other "new guys on the block" and got away with it (remember MidPac, Mahalo and of course Discovery). Now comes an airline that is not new, and has the monies to last the under-pricing of seats. JO has an axe to grind to pamper his ego, but lets face it he's not going away anytime soon. So folks just need to accept it!! It;s awful funny that all these studies are done/paid by the "other airlines", so what do you think the outcome will be, surely not against the bill payer. Yes they(Go!) do have a high CASM, everyone knows that the CRJ-200 is the worst plane to fly here/anywhere, no arguments there. Before we say Aloha has the lowest CASM (according to their study), HA 717 is one of the most efficient aircraft around. I don't believe the low load factors either, I think its probably split evenly between all three.

HA provides the best service between the mainland and the islands, so they aren't in any "threat" mode. I fly all three airlines and all three provide a great service but when it come down to it I, along with everyone else look for the price and convience. I will say that we only fly HA to the mainland, except when the fares are way to high but usually regret it after the horrible service on the other airlines.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:14 pm



Quoting Hiloboy1 (Reply 4):
So folks just need to accept it!! It;s awful funny that all these studies are done/paid by the "other airlines", so what do you think the outcome will be, surely not against the bill payer.

But we don't need HA or AQ to pay to use publicly available numbers to come up with a break-even fare that is higher than what they're getting.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:00 am

Cub,

I didn't say that; if you read my post I stated that the CRJ is the worst thus cost more to run. What I did say is that the others are flinging mud when they're just as guilty as Go!
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:57 am

Cub,

The others undercut all the other "interlopers" to the point that they ran them out of business. That's what they are guilty of doing, but once the "interlopers were out the fares went back up. Don't get me wrong; this is a very difficult/tight market and its not for the weak hearted investor.

Not that I agree with JO but its a pretty smart tax write-off, since he doesn't have to show a profit for a couple of years but of course he is "hell bent" on staying .

I've been an Air Traffic Controller here since 1986 and have seen the "others" intentionally block the other guys planes or delay them at the end so we'd send them to the "penalty box". But its the same everywhere though (its called competition).

So what I'm say don't believe everything you read or hear in the papers or on the news, unless you "see it" first hand then maybe it might be true. I could tell some stories of what the "others" have done to "stick-it" to the compitition, remember we have front row balcony seats. Its actually a little funny, but a couple of times they went overboard and created a serious safety violation.
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:08 am

How many times do we have to repeat this: Mesa improperly used confidential business information they obtained about Hawaiian and Aloha during both airlines' bankruptcies and used that information in setting up Go. Neither Hawaiian nor Aloha had this when they were battling Mid Pacific, Discovery, and Mahalo.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:49 pm



Quoting Hiloboy1 (Reply 9):
The others undercut all the other "interlopers" to the point that they ran them out of business. That's what they are guilty of doing, but once the "interlopers were out the fares went back up.

Do you not think that's Mesa's plan? It seems pretty obvious that it is.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Orion737
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:43 pm

I do think that is Mesa's plan and I think it stinks!
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:14 am



Quoting Hiloboy1 (Reply 4):
Here we go again with the Go! bashing; as stated before, Go! hasn't done anything that HA or Aloha haven't done to other "new guys on the block"

...except for that little thing about improperly using confidential business information and violating a non-disclosure agreement. That's why a judge ruled against them and had them post a $90M bond to be held by the court while the case is appealed.

Or do you think the judicial system is just engaging in 'Go! bashing' as well?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Orion737
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:16 am

I think rather than a fine they ought to have been given a suspension from operating services, that would hit the cash laden Mesa.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:20 am



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 14):
I think rather than a fine they ought to have been given a suspension from operating services, that would hit the cash laden Mesa.

That $90M amounts to a little more than 1/3 of Mesa's cash on hand. It would be like fining AA nearly a BILLION dollars.

Believe me, it hurts them.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:57 am

The judge might be found to have improperly made a decision based on what "I can only assume, since Mesa could show", but now can. As far as confidental I don't think so, and yes Hawaiian and Aloha did do the same thing, they just covered it better. By this they found out what the "new guys" operating exspenses were and under cut the fares until the "new guys" folded, but AGAIN this is call dog eat dog compitition!!! So before folks get on their "we never did that" stand, you'd better talk to some of the old timers who will tell you "we did the same". We weren't in the courts, so lets see what the appeals court has to say.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:03 am

Wow.

Hiloboy....um.....well, how do I put this?


You don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about.


There. I said it.



Mesa - like many other companies interested in investing in HA - was given access to HA's computer database to analyze the financial info they requested as part of their due diligence. Two conditions were imposed - one, that the data be destroyed immediately after reviewing it, and two, that no entity viewing this information could use it to compete against HA for a period of two years. Mesa agreed to these terms, signing a non-disclosure agreement.

And then shortly after being told they were not selected to invest in HA, they announced the creation of Go! and their intent to fly head-to-head against both HA and AQ.

Mesa CFO Peter Murnane was subpoenaed to turn over his computer as part of the civil case to determine when the data had been deleted. Around this same time an internal company e-mail was intercepted from Murnane to his IT department, inquiring about how to erase files from a computer and make it look like they were never there.

With me so far? Good.

Murnane was ordered to surrender the hard drive, and it was discovered that yes, it had been RECENTLY erased. Murnane hired a CRIMINAL defense attorney to represent him (gosh - why would he feel he needed one?) and that's when Mesa CEO Jonathan Ornstein let it be known that the "real" reason data was recently wiped from the computer was that Murnane had an internet porn problem.

Oh, and Mesa even had a bunch of corporate employees who'd written affidavits swearing that they'd observed him downloading porn onto that very computer.

Hey Pete, how's the view from under those Michelins?


Anyway, the rest is history. Mesa had to put up a huge bond to cover the amount of the judgment against them, their stock price has been pummeled, Murnane has been fired after being thrown firmly under the bus by his co-workers, and they continue their Hawaiian operations at a huge loss, still thinking they'll force AQ out of business eventually.


NOW do you understand why some people bash Mesa? Or do you still not get it?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:54 am

EA

Since you want to get personal; you occupation listed said it all, BS artist; BTW I'm not just a controller I'm a consultant (Masters in Airline Management), So I do have a clue, I'm the guy who has talked to these folks, not just controlling them in the air. I'm glad you can "cut and paste" from the news and it sounds like you were right there with good ole Pete when he did all the "bad stuff", but if you would have paid attention and read what I said before "you can't always believe what you read" THIS is call selling newspapers and TV News time, they intentionally leave out important things like "we have had success in un-erasing the hard drive in question" and this is what the good ole judge ruled against submitting it under the "its to late" excuse. So before you say someone doesn't have a clue, maybe you should look in the mirror.

You never read that I don't believe Go! didn't do anything wrong; I said they got "caught" at it, but the others didn't. Again this is all EGO driven because HA and AL told him NO WAY.

By no means am I a JO fan; I really dislike his "unorthodox" management techniques (if you can call it that), but the stockholder do, but for how much longer who knows.

ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME, EA!!

As stated, lets see what the Appeals Court has to say, since they get to see the "hard drive" in question.

NOW DO YOU SEE WHY YOUR THE ONLY ONE QUOTING "THE NEWS"
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:52 am



Quoting Hiloboy1 (Reply 18):
not just a controller I'm a consultant (Masters in Airline Management), So I do have a clue

"Consultant" = fancy title for 'part time job.'

While you've been studying, I'm actually part of the management of a major airline and have nearly 20 years in the industry.

Sorry, but I think I've got just a little more knowledge about the industry and how it works than you do.

Come back when you've actually got some real-world experience and we'll talk.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
hiloboy1
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RE: Go!s Market Share

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:57 pm

Talk about tooting your own horn; so you started working for a major airline when you were 15(according to your profile), congrats!!!

So you have "nearly" 20 years; NICE!!! I've been in the Aviation field since February 1983, so thats what UM going on 25 years.

Thanks but you still need to "get a clue"

If you want someone to believe your with an Major Airline the tell the truth with your Profile.

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