ualcsr
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UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:07 am

Been discussed many times here but UA's now announced intentions to expand internationally by 15% over the next three years. Brace also mentioned reconfiguring existing aircraft or shifting birds in domestic use to international, or even ordering a "handful of international planes".

Any ideas? Unless the international expansion is for short hops, I can't see what other domestic planes would be reconfigured other than those currently used for Hawaii or 757s.

And as to new routes, anyone think it will be Asia-heavy or will UA go elsewhere? I've always thought UA needs a little more Latin American expansion (although IAD, as the likely hub, is not optimally located)--maybe IAD-SCL, IAD-PTY, IAD-CCS, and Europe....IAD-WAW?

Any rumours from HQ?
 
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Stitch
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:18 am

UA has many two-class 767-300ER and 777-200s that could be converted to three classes and used on international services.
 
scorpy
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:29 am

I wonder if these planes will be new or used. Carries like SQ will be shedding high quality used aircraft in the next few years that UA could pick up to add service. Their 744's even have PW engines so it would match their existing fleet.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
UA has many two-class 767-300ER and 777-200s that could be converted to three classes and used on international services.

I could see reduced domestic flying resulting in existing 757 routes being downgauged and these 757 taking over some domestic widebody service.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:30 am

If I had to venture a guess, my bet is that IAD will be the benefactor of the new international services. If I were UA I would focus on Latin America.
It is what it is...
 
johnclipper
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:32 am

All of UA's 2-class B767s used to be B767-300ERs, they just downrated them to save $$$ and landing fees since they were flying to Hawaii to replace DC-10s.
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
scorpy
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:35 am



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
If I had to venture a guess, my bet is that IAD will be the benefactor of the new international services. If I were UA I would focus on Latin America.

They haven't done so well in lat am recently. Depending on equipment added, i could see them doing DEN-NRT. Never been discussed but maybe a few IAD to asia routes.. maybe IAD-HKG? maybe also IAD-MOW.

next time china routes are up for grabs i'm sure they will apply for that too.
 
2travel2know
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:55 am

UA hubs don't favour them as gateways for Latinamerica that much and now when TA seems to be getting close to them, lots of potential UA Latin destinations are highly unlikely.

Yes, with immediate Asian connections both ways, I could see a limited but steady market for a ORD-PTY or even a SFO-PTY.
Also I could see some IAD <> MBJ, KIN, SDQ, STI, POS, BGI, SXM and ORD <> MBJ, KIN, BZE

But IAD <> CCS, SCL, LIM (even w/VVI - huge Bolivian community in D.C. area) could make UA lose money.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:58 am



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 3):
If I had to venture a guess, my bet is that IAD will be the benefactor of the new international services. If I were UA I would focus on Latin America.

Too little, too late.
a.
 
ualcsr
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:06 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Too little, too late.

Yeah. Pretty hard to believe that at one point, UA was the US' #2 airline to LatAm. Still, I think UA can make IAD or ORD to PTY and CCS work if the connectivity to Asia is good.
 
united
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:13 am

my guesses:

IAD-DUS (more of a wish)
SFO-MUC
DEN-FRA
ORD-ICN (only 777)
LAX-ICN (only 777)
LAX-KIX (only 777)
IAD-NRT (upgrade to 744)
IAD-TXL (767)
IAD-IST
IAD-DXB
IAD-BGL
The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of Delta Air Lines.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:27 am

How about UA going back and rehubbing MIA to bring back services to South and Latin Am? What are the prospects?
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
dia77
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:32 am



Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 10):
How about UA going back and rehubbing MIA to bring back services to South and Latin Am? What are the prospects?

Zero prospect. UA got burned in MIA by AA in the 90s. I really don't see UA venturing further into Lat Am.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:38 am



Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 8):
Yeah. Pretty hard to believe that at one point, UA was the US' #2 airline to LatAm. Still, I think UA can make IAD or ORD to PTY and CCS work if the connectivity to Asia is good.

Copa is having enough problems with IAD-PTY, no room for another.

And no way the Venezuelan government will approve any new USA-Venezuela flights at this time, just as they have not approved NK's FLL-CCS and AA's MIA-VLN applications for well over a year.
a.
 
Transpac787
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:01 am



Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 4):
All of UA's 2-class B767s used to be B767-300ERs, they just downrated them to save $$$ and landing fees since they were flying to Hawaii to replace DC-10s.

All of UA's 763's are 763ER's, including the 2-class domestic ones. They are all ETOPS-certified. Really the only difference between the 2-cabin and 3-cabin birds is the domestic 2-cabin ones have PW4056 motors and the international 3-cabin ones have PW4060 motors. Still, they are all ER models.

Quoting UniTED (Reply 9):
AD-DUS (more of a wish)

UA used to fly this, it was UA982/981

Quoting UniTED (Reply 9):
DEN-FRA

UA also used to fly this, even post-9/11. However, it was a bit of a "nonrev shuttle", even during the summer, so UA dropped it. LH seems to be having far better luck with it.

While I'd love to see UA add routes, they have ZERO space to do it, unless they cut another route. The planes just aren't available, as their widebody fleet is stretched as thin as it goes, and now they're sending planes in for repainting and cabin reconfigurations. Also, this isn't a self-plug or anything, but there is a good deal of info in this thread:
Where Are All Of UA's 744's? (by Transpac787 Dec 4 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
rwsea
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:36 am

Well to add my suggestions:

IAD-DXB (777)
IAD-MAN (757 - connect to * hub)
IAD-LIS (757 - connect to * hub)
IAD-DUB (757)
IAD-TLV (777 - if DL can make it work from ATL, why can't UA run a capital-to-capital service)
IAD-DEL (777)

ORD-BCN (767)
ORD-ICN (777)

LAX-PVG (747 - would need bilateral changes, of course)
LAX-PEK (747 - would need bilateral changes, of course)
LAX-GRU (763 if it can make it, to replace the lost RG service and provide connections to NRT/HKG)

SFO-MNL (747 - quite a growing market, but might need an intermediate market given UA's current fleet)

NRT-KUL (establish a foothold in a new market for a US carrier)
NRT-JKT (establish a foothold in a new market for a US carrier)

With that said, I realize that UA's 777s/757s might not be able to make all of the routes above.
 
halls120
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13):
While I'd love to see UA add routes, they have ZERO space to do it, unless they cut another route. The planes just aren't available, as their widebody fleet is stretched as thin as it goes, and now they're sending planes in for repainting and cabin reconfigurations.


Didn't the initial post discuss the possibility of adding planes?

after all, B does have those unidentified 777's on the books.....

[Edited 2007-12-04 19:46:04]
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ualcsr
Posts: 348
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:49 am



Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 10):
How about UA going back and rehubbing MIA to bring back services to South and Latin Am? What are the prospects?

Although I would get recalled and thus love the idea, the chances are pretty much zilch. UA cannot compete with AA from MIA (or anywhere else) to LatAm.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Copa is having enough problems with IAD-PTY, no room for another.

And no way the Venezuelan government will approve any new USA-Venezuela flights at this time, just as they have not approved NK's FLL-CCS and AA's MIA-VLN applications for well over a year.

Didn't know CM wasn't cutting it at IAD although I'm not totally surprised.

Off-topic here but since you're the MIA and AA guru....can you tell me how AA's MIA-CCS do profit-wise? I know full planes means nothing, but I just paid $2000 (coach) for a trip last week and flights look completely full until at least mid-January. I would think that CCS is one of AA's more lucrative routes in LatAm, but just speculating.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Didn't the initial post discuss the possibility of adding planes?

I just re-read the article and think that my initial post wasn't accurate. What Jack Brace said was that beyond the 15% expansion, UA may want to order a handful of international airplanes. I think that leaves it open to many interpretations.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13):
While I'd love to see UA add routes, they have ZERO space to do it, unless they cut another route. The planes just aren't available, as their widebody fleet is stretched as thin as it goes, and now they're sending planes in for repainting and cabin reconfigurations

But they did announce it today. Per Jack Brace, 15% international expansion in the next 3 years.
 
UAL4ever
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:20 am



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
IAD-TLV (777 - if DL can make it work from ATL, why can't UA run a capital-to-capital service)

I would love that. I travel to Israel about 4 times every year and I hate connecting in FRA. PLus, I can only upgrade as far as FRA since it is LH metal on to TLV. I would love for UA to have service US-TLV. By the way, it would not be capital to capital as Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel.
 
Transpac787
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:50 am



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
IAD-MAN (757 - connect to * hub)
IAD-LIS (757 - connect to * hub)
IAD-DUB (757)



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
I realize that UA's 777s/757s might not be able to make all of the routes above.

There have been quite a few threads lately, not unlike this one, about the possibility of UA beginning TATL 757 service, as that seems to be the trend lately with CO, NW, and DL taking major steps in it.

However, it is highly unlikely that UA will ever start TATL 757 flying. Out of UA's 97x 757's, only 16x of them are ETOPS, of which UA uses on Hawaii routes. So, between HNL, OGG, KOA, and LIH, UA has no spare ETOPS 757 capacity to be used on TATL routes.

UA does have 13x Extended Overwater 757's though, which are typically used around the Caribbean. They carry overwater cabin equipment (liferafts/vests), but none of the additional ETOPS equipment such as the additional radios, HMG, 2x crossfeed valves, etc etc. The 13x EOW birds are cycled through domestic routes very frequently, and could be better used on routes to Central/South America, like the above mentioned IAD-PTY by the OP.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
SFO-MNL

Unless UA shifts around the 744 scheduling, they really don't have any spare 744 capacity to speak of. Besides, IIRC, UA has tried MNL before and did not do well against NW.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
NRT-KUL (establish a foothold in a new market for a US carrier)
NRT-JKT (establish a foothold in a new market for a US carrier)

NW used to fly both of those, and both are rumored to be brought back once the 787's arrive.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
after all, B does have those unidentified 777's on the books.....

Just think.....more 777's with PW power!!  cloudnine 

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 16):
15% international expansion in the next 3 years.

I really do hope this comes in the form of new planes, not just converting existing fleet to international ops!!
 
rwsea
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:09 am



Quoting UAL4ever (Reply 17):
By the way, it would not be capital to capital as Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel.

Yes, but the US embassy is in Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem is only ~30 miles away.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
There have been quite a few threads lately, not unlike this one, about the possibility of UA beginning TATL 757 service, as that seems to be the trend lately with CO, NW, and DL taking major steps in it.

However, it is highly unlikely that UA will ever start TATL 757 flying. Out of UA's 97x 757's, only 16x of them are ETOPS, of which UA uses on Hawaii routes. So, between HNL, OGG, KOA, and LIH, UA has no spare ETOPS 757 capacity to be used on TATL routes.

UA does have 13x Extended Overwater 757's though, which are typically used around the Caribbean. They carry overwater cabin equipment (liferafts/vests), but none of the additional ETOPS equipment such as the additional radios, HMG, 2x crossfeed valves, etc etc. The 13x EOW birds are cycled through domestic routes very frequently, and could be better used on routes to Central/South America, like the above mentioned IAD-PTY by the OP.

Yes, it's too bad that UA's planes aren't as well-powered as DL and CO's birds.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
NW used to fly both of those, and both are rumored to be brought back once the 787's arrive.

Did NW ever fly to JKT? IIRC, it was supposed to be a tag-on to NW's SEA-KIX flight, but was never started due to some sort of a governmental issue. Then SEA-KIX was cancelled around the time of the Asian economic crisis.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
Unless UA shifts around the 744 scheduling, they really don't have any spare 744 capacity to speak of. Besides, IIRC, UA has tried MNL before and did not do well against NW.

That's true. Keep in mind that my list above would obviously require additional capacity as UA is too short-handed right now. I do think that KUL/JKT could be added as a tag from an existing service, or potentially a new flight (like DEN-NRT, if that ever happened). I'm surprised UA doesn't offer a couple more connections through their NRT hub to longer-distance destinations - they'd have good feed from LAX, SFO, ORD, IAD,SEA, and HNL. I guess the NH relationship must be working well for them given the recent cut of NRT-HKG.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:27 am



Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 16):

Didn't know CM wasn't cutting it at IAD although I'm not totally surprised.

Neither am I.

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 16):
Off-topic here but since you're the MIA and AA guru....can you tell me how AA's MIA-CCS do profit-wise? I know full planes means nothing, but I just paid $2000 (coach) for a trip last week and flights look completely full until at least mid-January. I would think that CCS is one of AA's more lucrative routes in LatAm, but just speculating.

Excellent, and it's been doing even better as of late because of the troubles of Aeropostal, the Venezuelan government not allowing new U.S. flights, and explosion of demand between South Florida and Caracas. San Juan does well too, but JFK and DFW are not stellar performers, hence their minimal frequencies.
a.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:31 am



Quoting Scorpy (Reply 2):
Carries like SQ will be shedding high quality used aircraft

"high quality" might be in the eye of the beholder.... another USA airline has twice looked at SQ's 772ERs, and twice utterly rejected the idea.

I've heard it said that taking the 9V-SR* series (and to a somewhat lesser extent, the 9V-SQ* series), would be akin to receiving a model-year 2006 Cadillac with 200,000mi already on the odometer.  Wow!

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 5):
maybe IAD-HKG?

UA doesn't currently have anything in their fleet that could operate this route without a massive payload hit; akin to their short-lived JFK-HKG nonstop attempt.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ualcsr
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:08 am



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
I really do hope this comes in the form of new planes, not just converting existing fleet to international ops!!

Yes, I hope so too. If it means converting the existing fleet, I'm afraid a lot of the new international expansion may be short-haul Mexico, Central America, etc.
 
8herveg
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:12 am

I reckon an IAD-MAN service could be launched....perhaps a daily B767. When bmi flew the route, they did really well on it didn't they? And they used the slightly larger A330....for the most part! Lol.
 
caspritz78
Posts: 229
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:25 am

Does the flight ORD-DEN which has the same flight number as FRA-ORD still exist? I remember that when I took the FRA-ORD flight the flight crew welcomed us aboard the flight to Chicago with ongoing service to Denver.

So far UA added a second flight from FRA to SFO UA927 and one flight from FRA to LAX, UA904 with 777.
 
UAL777UK
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Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:38 am



Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 16):
Per Jack Brace, 15% international expansion in the next 3 years.

Thats quite a large expansion and one which I welcome. I think its far to say that my home town airlport, LHR is unlikley to see any more expansion beyond the new DEN flight.

I don't see UA ever going narrowbody over the pond so I am guessing that on the basis that they are wanting to expand in the immediate future, with most carriers in the US saying that they are going to scale back domestically, I think as pointed out above you might see some 763's reconfigured for International flying.

I think its only a matter of time before there operate IAD-DXB and with the new F & J class a 767 might operate the route although cargo would be limited and thats where a 777 comes into its own.

Any chance UA might order some 777LR's and look to India again?
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:44 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
UA has tried MNL before and did not do well against NW.

NW has nothing to do with it. The margin's to MNL are horrible. Just look at the fare differences in business between MNL and HKG or NRT, you can buy a F ticket to MNL for less then a full C ticket to HKG/NRT. As UA has HUGE limitations in their fleet numbers now, its not about what can make you money but what can make you the MOST money.

-m

 airplane 
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:25 pm



Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 16):
Didn't know CM wasn't cutting it at IAD although I'm not totally surprised.

If UA would start IAD-PTY that would immediately kill CM @ IAD. The problem with CM @ IAD is that because of CM schedule, IAD is a O/D market, no connections whatsoever. UA wouldn't have the same problem CM has if they were to fly IAD-PTY at 1700h and PTY-IAD at 1000h.
IMHO, an IAD-SJO via PTY with that schedule would even grant better loads but my dream route with UA would be IAD-PTY-SJO-SFO (red-eyes SJO-SFO) and SFO-SJO-PTY-IAD.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
scorpy
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:26 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:36 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
"high quality" might be in the eye of the beholder.... another USA airline has twice looked at SQ's 772ERs, and twice utterly rejected the idea.

I've heard it said that taking the 9V-SR* series (and to a somewhat lesser extent, the 9V-SQ* series), would be akin to receiving a model-year 2006 Cadillac with 200,000mi already on the odometer.  

the 777's sure, since they were used for regional asian routes. But since they are RR powered and derated at that, would UA really want them. I was thinking of their 744's that were used for longer haul routes like SYD, LHR etc and are still fairly new and fit well with UA's fleet.
 
HUYfan
Posts: 1184
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:41 pm

MAN-IAD on the 75 would be perfect, along with IAD-DUB and IAD-GLA.

Regards

Mike
 
jlarsson
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:44 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:45 pm

I would love to UA at ARN, but that is only a dream I think with the tight connections between ARN and FRA.

But if they come I would be in heaven  cloudnine  GO UNITED!  praise 
Next trip; ARN-FRA-YYC-YVR-SEA-ORD-BOS-MUC-GOT.
 
africawings
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:47 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:45 pm

My two cents:
IAD-Lagos, Nairobi, Addis Ababa Commerce and tourisim destinations in Africa
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:58 pm



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 6):
But IAD <> CCS, SCL, LIM (even w/VVI - huge Bolivian community in D.C. area) could make UA lose money.

I dont agree with that..throw in BOG as a possibility as well.....IAD has a much larger local market to these cities than does ATL, additionally people talk about ATL's massive hub, but 90% plus of the all the traffic connecting thru ATL to latin american can also go thru IAD. SCL would probably be the best with BOG 2nd. Political problems in CCS might make it a money loser, LIM has a huge population in the DC area. Im not sure if a 757 could do IAD-LIM nonstop no restrictions on pax or cargo.


UA is doing real well in EZE, GIG and GRU from IAD. They should add BOG, more carribbean, and SCL
 
PVD757
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm

I also think that UA might make use of some 757s to places like MAN, DUB, and LIS. IAD is pretty well served by the TACA codeshare and existing UA service, so sending them east makes sense.
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
Well to add my suggestions:

IAD-DXB (777)
IAD-MAN (757 - connect to * hub)
IAD-LIS (757 - connect to * hub)
IAD-DUB (757)
IAD-TLV (777 - if DL can make it work from ATL, why can't UA run a capital-to-capital service)
IAD-DEL (777)

ORD-BCN (767)
ORD-ICN (777)

LAX-PVG (747 - would need bilateral changes, of course)
LAX-PEK (747 - would need bilateral changes, of course)
LAX-GRU (763 if it can make it, to replace the lost RG service and provide connections to NRT/HKG)

SFO-MNL (747 - quite a growing market, but might need an intermediate market given UA's current fleet)

NRT-KUL (establish a foothold in a new market for a US carrier)
NRT-JKT (establish a foothold in a new market for a US carrier)

With that said, I realize that UA's 777s/757s might not be able to make all of the routes above.

SOme of these would work, some are extremely extremely low yield...I also think LAX-GRU has to be a 777 due to crew issues..a bunk is required
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
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RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:20 pm

UA can't rely solely on IAD-South America O/D for flights to BOG, LIM and SCL. IAD is a UA hub, but for those Southamerican destinations is a lousy hub. The only good connections which UA could offer those cities are Eastern U.S., Eastern Canada and Europe, maybe plus ORD and some mid-western cities. If UA wants to cover more of the U.S: for flights to BOG, LIM and SCL, then ORD would be better positioned, but doesn't have the O/D..
Lets see if IAD-LIM-VVI (IAD has O/D for Perテコ and Bolivia), ORD-BOG (red-eyes southbound or northbound) and 3 weekly IAD-SCL-EZE (4 weekly IAD-EZE) could work.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 34):
I also think LAX-GRU has to be a 777 due to crew issues..a bunk is required

Given how close TA is getting to UA, surely TA would dream of a UA LAX-SAL-GRU or better for TA, a LAX-SJO-GRU.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
mymiles2go
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:21 pm

What would the rough cost be to reconvert those 763's that were 'downgraded', to something that could operate internationally again?
 
747fan
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:47 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13):
Really the only difference between the 2-cabin and 3-cabin birds is the domestic 2-cabin ones have PW4056 motors and the international 3-cabin ones have PW4060 motors. Still, they are all ER models.

 checkmark , but the 2-cabin 767's actually have PW4052's. I doubt those are very capable aircraft range-wise due to that. But you're right about the 3-cabin ones with International First (well, sort of an intl. first); DL also has these engines on many of their 763ER's, and even AA has a small subfleet with them. The PW4060's are probably the most capable engine combination of the 767-300ER, with about a 5800nm. range compared to around 5500-5600 for the CF6-80C2B4. So it could definitely operate IAD-TLV or CAI, although TLV would likely be a 777.

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 5):
Never been discussed but maybe a few IAD to asia routes.. maybe IAD-HKG?

No. UA did fly JFK-HKG with a 744, but that's even shorter and it encountered quite a few payload restrictions. UA's PW4090-powered 777's would have to be weight restricted as well, as they're not as capable as GE90 or Trent-powered T7's. For example, UA would have to weight-restrict their 777's most likely if they operated JFK-HKG; CO's GE90 aircraft have no problem operating EWR-HKG. That also likely rules out an India route for UA such as ORD-DEL or BOM, which AA's Trent 777's are capable of operating (they fly ORD-DEL).
 
The777Man
Posts: 5918
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:52 pm

I think UA may get some of their old 777s back; Varig got four but gave them back. They were supposed to go to Royal Brunei but it seems like they will not get them. UA could get four of them back that will help to cover 777 flying with the new routes DEN-LHR and SFO-CAN.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
unitednrt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:56 pm



Quoting 747fan (Reply 37):
but the 2-cabin 767's actually have PW4052's

All 14 B767-300MD were recently uprated and now have PW4056 rating.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
787kq
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:02 pm



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 27):
If UA would start IAD-PTY that would immediately kill CM @ IAD. The problem with CM @ IAD is that because of CM schedule, IAD is a O/D market, no connections whatsoever. UA wouldn't have the same problem CM has if they were to fly IAD-PTY at 1700h and PTY-IAD at 1000h.

What would you suggest as a better schedule for the PTY-IAD and IAD-PTY flights for better connectivity?

Clearly, the connectivity needed by COPA would come at the PTY hub and not at IAD.
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:04 pm



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
Yes, it's too bad that UA's planes aren't as well-powered as DL and CO's birds.

It's not the power rating on the planes, it's the ETOPS capability that limits UA. At CO, 100% of their 757's are ETOPS capable. At NW, nearly all of their late-delivered 757's are ETOPS capable, save for the last ~7 or so. At UA, only 16x of their 97x are ETOPS. Again, the power rating or MGTOW aren't the problem, as UA's birds are 240k. Most of their 757's have PW2037's while a few have PW2040's (55XX series and 57XX series, IIRC).

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 24):
Does the flight ORD-DEN which has the same flight number as FRA-ORD still exist? I remember that when I took the FRA-ORD flight the flight crew welcomed us aboard the flight to Chicago with ongoing service to Denver.

As of current, DEN has direct (not nonstop, just continuing flight nums) to NRT, HKG, LHR, FRA, AMS

Quoting Jlarsson (Reply 30):
I would love to UA at ARN,

I personally think it's more likely that AA will return to ARN before UA launches ARN. But maybe that's just me, haha.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 34):
SOme of these would work, some are extremely extremely low yield...I also think LAX-GRU has to be a 777 due to crew issues..a bunk is required

So?? The 763's are routinely flown on flights over 8 hours on which 3 pilots are required. As for crew rest on flights of 8+ hours, FA's are given seats 13AB, 14AB, for crew rest. On the old-config 763's, pilots are given 2C for crew rest, and on new-config it's 2K.

United has no stipulation in their pilot contract that crew rest is in the form of a bunk room. The only planes that have them in the fleet are the 744 and the Asia-Config 772ER. Both the Euro Config 772ER and the 772A's do not have bunk rooms, and routinely fly multi-crew flights. While it is rare, I've even seen Euro-Config 772ER's fly on segments of 12+ hours, meaning they have to block off 2x first class seats for the pilots, 3A and 3J.

Quoting Mymiles2go (Reply 36):
What would the rough cost be to reconvert those 763's that were 'downgraded', to something that could operate internationally again?

The international 3-cabin birds have PW4060 with 60k thrust. The initial derate for the 2-cabin birds was down to 52k thrust with PW4052's. However, the 763's had difficulty doing DEN-HNL nonstop in the summer with that thrust rating, so UA is now re-rating the 2-cabin fleet up to 56k thrust with PW4056's, the same motor on their 744 fleet.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 37):
(well, sort of an intl. first)

Hey!!! They're getting better!!  Wink

Quoting 747fan (Reply 37):
and even AA has a small subfleet with them.

Not anymore, they were all sold or returned to the lessor, as these were the ex-TW birds.

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 39):
All 14 B767-300MD were recently uprated and now have PW4056 rating.

 checkmark  Correct, again because DEN-HNL nonstops were taking substantial weight limits during the summer, so UA uprated the fleet to take care of that problem.
 
unitednrt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:14 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 41):
while a few have PW2040's (55XX series and 57XX series, IIRC)

Wanting to sort out the situation for myself after wondering for a while, I headed to our SOC and checked for myself and all 97 B757-200 have PW2037.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:07 pm



Quoting 787KQ (Reply 40):
What would you suggest as a better schedule for the PTY-IAD and IAD-PTY flights for better connectivity?

For connections with CM @ IAD, PTY-IAD at noon, IAD-PTY at noon which mean CM will have to keep a B737-700 (doubt they'd fly PTY-IAD w/E190) in IAD from 1700h to 1200h next day.
TA works @ IAD mainly not because the passenger feed they get in SAL or SJO for the IAD flight, it works because the D.C. Area - Centralamerica O/D (read GUA and SAL) is huge.
Don't know what CM is thinking with IAD, but they could be making more money using that B737-700 flying to Southameirca (add COR 2 flights and/or new destinations in Brazil) instead of that PTY-IAD-PTY.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:30 pm

Concerning to Latin America, i expect they consolidate IAD-GIG as year-round and not seasonal. After that, i can't expect anything to Brazil as they now are code-sharing JJ flights from JFK and MIA.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
shane
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:38 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:25 pm

SFO - MUC sounds good to me! How likely do you all think this is? I remember reading that it was applied for in the past and undesirable time slots were offered. Lufthansa's nonstop is always jammed on this route.

What about LAX-GRU? And for that matter, why not SFO-GRU to take advantage of the UA hub? I would like to hear Felipe's comment on this.
 
Airbus767
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:23 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:34 pm

I'm still not over the fact that United dropped EZE-MVD... From what I understand, they dropped it because the few passengers continuing to MVD were taking seats from the higher paying EZE passengers, or something along those lines. Either way, from my non-professional opinion, I think UA could pull off BOG or CCS, and maybe LIM too, from IAD. I'm not too confident about SCL, though, because that's LAN territory, and besides UA, CO also flew to SCL from EWR and dropped it. Also, I know AA has dominance in the Latin American market, but doesn't United provide a better product and overall better service over AA? Could that give UA a slight advantage?
LAN ~ United Airlines ~ Aerolineas Argentinas ~ Pluna ~ Varig ~ American Airlines
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11432
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:42 pm



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 35):
The only good connections which UA could offer those cities are Eastern U.S., Eastern Canada and Europe, maybe plus ORD and some mid-western cities.

If you connect people over IAD, you avoid a whole lot of backtracking from the midwest to ORD. Heck, even LAX-IAD-EZE is only about 800 miles longer than LAX-MIA-EZE. IAD is a fine location for a South America hub... Central America, not so much.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 32):
They should add BOG, more carribbean, and SCL

SCL is overserved from the States as it is. While DFW isn't the best location for a South America hub, the fact that DFW-SCL only succeeds because of cargo is a good indication of the saturation of the US-Chile market, at least with respect to passengers. I don't know whether there's enough cargo demand to support additional service, but given that the US and Chile have open skies and that DL has tried adding some frequency without a whole lot of success, I suspect not.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
yellowtail
Posts: 3719
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 am

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:43 pm



Quoting Ualcsr (Thread starter):
IAD-PTY,

CM already struggling on this route

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 6):
ORD <> MBJ, KIN, BZE

They already camee to check out BZE and have said "not at this time"...prefer to codes share...

However with their new partner TA....don't rule out a ORD-SAL
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: UA International Expansion

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:49 pm

I expect ORD-DEL and SFO-BLR would still be near the top of UA's list.

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