JoKeR
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El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:28 am

Fortunately a non-event, an El Al Cargo Boeing 747-200F carrying dangerous (flammable) cargo made an emergency landing in BEG on Sunday, after fire-alarms went-off in mid air on a flight from AMS to TLV.

BEG was temporarily closed and a priority landing was granted. It turned out to be a false alarm.



In Serbian: http://www.blic.co.yu/hronika.php?id=22138
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cobra27
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:49 am

With weapons onboard?

Glad nobody was hurt
 
JoKeR
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:55 am



Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 1):
With weapons onboard?

Your guess is good as mine... the airport is refusing to comment on the cargo.... just saying it was corrosive and highly flammable.
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kappel
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:00 am



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 2):
Your guess is good as mine... the airport is refusing to comment on the cargo.... just saying it was corrosive and highly flammable.

Nothing new from this airline. Brings back memories from the Bijlmer crash in the Netherlands. They wouldn't comment on the cargo then either, even if it could be dangerous for the rescue workers.
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worldrider
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:07 am



Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
Nothing new from this airline. Brings back memories from the Bijlmer crash in the Netherlands. They wouldn't comment on the cargo then either, even if it could be dangerous for the rescue workers.

i remember that day... heavy memories.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:47 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Thread starter):
El Al Cargo Boeing 747-200F carrying dangerous (flammable) cargo

Any airplane that has fuel aboard is carrying flammable cargo.  Yeah sure
 
JoKeR
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:59 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Any airplane that has fuel aboard is carrying flammable cargo.

Please tell me you're joking...  banghead 

Especially for you, let me rephrase my sentence, besides jet fuel, the aircraft was carrying dangerous, highly flammable cargo - not in its wings, but on the main deck and in its cargo hold.

BUT, but... the plane also had rubber tires, was covered in metal, had computerized avionics and was piloted by homo sapiens - bipedal primates, an intriguing cluster made up of cells, capable of emotions but also stupidity!
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OA260
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:01 pm



Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
Nothing new from this airline. Brings back memories from the Bijlmer crash in the Netherlands. They wouldn't comment on the cargo then either, even if it could be dangerous for the rescue workers.

Yes makes you wonder why no one has done anything about it !!! Rescue workers should have the right to refuse to attend such emergencies unless they know what the cargo is !!! How stupid can you get . If you dont know what the cargo is then how are you best to decide what to use to put out any fire etc....

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Any airplane that has fuel aboard is carrying flammable cargo. Yeah sure

They are talking about whats inside the containers not the fuel tanks !! I guess you knew that anyway  Yeah sure
 
Beaucaire
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:02 pm

fact is that El Al cargo does operate in an environment that is not very well defined,in that anything that comes close to the state of Israel is automatically "secret","not of your business" or" vital for the survival of Israel"...
Based on that,El Al continues to transport all kinds of items that nobody really wants to know about...
The AMS incident has left many people dead and handicaped for the rest of their lives.-the truth about what really went on will always remain "..not of your business.."
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OA260
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:10 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):
BUT, but... the plane also had rubber tires, was covered in metal, had computerized avionics and was piloted by homo sapiens - bipedal primates, an intriguing cluster made up of cells, capable of emotions but also stupidity!

LOL....

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
"secret","not of your business" or" vital for the survival of Israel"...

Well they should fly them in military planes then and not ''hide'' things in commericial cargo planes. I dont know why the EU allows flights out of AMS if there is a possibility of ''suspect'' cargo being loaded onto EL AL Cargo planes. I guess unless a major disaster happens where the cargo seriously damages / contaminates large areas then nothing will be done.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:38 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):
let me rephrase my sentence, besides jet fuel, the aircraft was carrying dangerous, highly flammable cargo - not in its wings, but on the main deck and in its cargo hold.

So, no big deal. Cargo is checked upon acceptance and build up in AMS according IATA regulations for Dangerous Goods. Packaging is in good condition at this stage. When on a pallet, it's basically impossible to get broken of to get on fire, under normal circumstances.

This case has nothing to do with the flammable cargo on board, either the corrosives.

This will turn out as a mechanic defect on the aircraft systems somewhere. You can't blame the sort of cargo carried on this plane.
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Beaucaire
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:41 pm

El Al Flight LY1862, en route from New York to Tel Aviv, crashes into a block of apartment buildings shortly after take-off from Schiphol Airport, located south-east of Amsterdam. At least 43 people on the ground are killed (The exact number of deaths is unknown, since many of the incinerated victims were undocumented immigrants). Information about the plane’s cargo and the crash is suppressed: El Al withholds information about the plane’s several tons of “military cargo;” 12 hours of videotape made during the rescue and clean-up operation (42 cassettes in all), along with police audiotapes, are erased and shredded; and El Al documents and the plane’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) mysteriously disappear. It is later learned that the plane, a Boeing 747, was carrying several tons of chemicals, including hydrofluoric acid, isopro-panol and dimethyl methylphosphonate (DMMP)—three of the four chemicals used in the production of sarin nerve gas. The shipment of chemicals—approved by the US commerce department—reportedly came from Solkatronic Chemicals Inc. of Morrisville, Pennsylvania and its final destination was the Institute for Biological Research (IIBR) in Ness Ziona near Tel Aviv, Israel, which is reported to be the “Israeli military and intelligence community’s front organization for the development, testing and production of chemical and biological weapons.” A former IIBR biologist later tells the London Sunday Times in October of 1998, “There is hardly a single known or unknown form of chemical or biological weapon… which is not manufactured at the institute.” In fact, it was IIBR that provided the poison and the antidote used in the attempted assassination of a Hamas leader in Jordan in 1998. The IIBR does not appear on any maps and is off-limits even to members of Israel’s Parliament, the Knesset. Israel denies that the chemicals were to be used in the production of chemical weapons and instead claims that they were needed to test gas masks. But as an article in Earth Island Journal notes: “[T]his explanation is puzzling since it only takes a few grams to conduct such tests. Once combined, the chemicals aboard Flight 1862 could have produced 270 kilos of sarin—sufficient to kill the entire population of a major world city.” During hearings on the crash in 1999, it is learned that since 1973, El Al planes are never inspected by customs or the Dutch Flight Safety Board and that El Al security at Schiphol is a branch of the Israeli Mossad. Furthermore, it is discovered that every Sunday evening a mysterious El Al cargo flight arrives at Schiphol en route from New York to Tel Aviv. The flights are never displayed on the airport arrival monitors and the flights’ documents are processed in a special, unmarked room. [BBC, 10/2/1998; Earth Island Journal, 1999; Covert Action Quarterly, 10/20/2004] Over a thousand residents living near the crash site later become sick with respiratory, neurological and mobility ailments and a rise in cancer and birth defects is later detected among the population. [ZNet, 10/12/2002]
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JoKeR
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:45 pm



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 10):
This will turn out as a mechanic defect on the aircraft systems somewhere. You can't blame the sort of cargo carried on this plane.

Who blamed the cargo?

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 10):
So, no big deal.

That's what I recall summarizing at the begging of this thread.

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 10):
under normal circumstances.

Yes but things can and do go wrong... remember the SAA 295, "Helderberg" - A combi 747 that went down close to MRU in 1987? Fire in the combi cargo area
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OA260
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:51 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 12):
Who blamed the cargo?

Kappel brought up interesting points. I was replying to that. What if the A/C was carrying dangerous cargo and it had crashed?? Then the issue of apparant secrecy came up of EL AL not telling authorities whats inside!! That is very worrying and even more so after ready Beaucaires post !!! Its quite shocking to be honest.
 
JoKeR
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:57 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
Kappel brought up interesting points. I was replying to that. What if the A/C was carrying dangerous cargo and it had crashed?? Then the issue of apparant secrecy came up of EL AL not telling authorities whats inside!! That is very worrying and even more so after ready Beaucaires post !!! Its quite shocking to be honest.

Looking at it from that perspective, I agree, and that is exactly the reason behind this story being published in the local papers... the article mentions the Amsterdam accident and the fact that BEG did not want to say the nature of the "corrosive and dangerous" cargo.
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ltbewr
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:00 pm

It is possible that legitment chemicals for specialized industrial, medical or military use could be on board as well as items with high-tech batteries could be on any freight flight. Remember about 2 years ago a UPS DC-8 flight caught fire during landing at PHL as apparently some laptop computer batteries shorted.
 
Basefly
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:01 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):

Good stuff......  highfive 
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ALexeu
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:02 pm

BEG is second emergency airport for LH cargo, AFAIK ?

I am glad that El Al 747 made it. There are rumours spreading in Belgrade that they will construct pararrel runway, because BEG ''will'' become cargo hub...

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airbuseric
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:04 pm

The cargo facility who handles LY at AMS is supposed to check the DGR on board LY aircraft as per regulations. I did not say that things can't go wrong, but under normal circumstances, class 3 DG/RFL (restricted flammable liquids) won't get on fire during inflight and when build in a proper on a uld or tied-down in the lower deck bulk hold.

Since the accident in 1992, also at AMS, handling relating to LY and Dangerous Goods changed. Dutch authorities are very keen on airlines 'with a name' and check them often.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 12):
Who blamed the cargo?

Nobody blamed the cargo, but, it's mentioned strongly in the first post. A plane 'carrying flammable cargo' made an emergency landing. So, probably, you think it's a point to mention.
Of course, things can go wrong, but packing conditions of dangerous goods can also stand in emergency situations.
Of course, when a plane crashes, situations will change completely.
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JoKeR
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:15 pm



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 18):

Nobody blamed the cargo, but, it's mentioned strongly in the first post. A plane 'carrying flammable cargo' made an emergency landing. So, probably, you think it's a point to mention.
Of course, things can go wrong, but packing conditions of dangerous goods can also stand in emergency situations.
Of course, when a plane crashes, situations will change completely.

Just a misunderstanding Big grin We're thinking the same thing...

Cheers!
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OA260
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:16 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):
It is possible that legitment chemicals for specialized industrial, medical or military use could be on board as well as items with high-tech batteries could be on any freight flight.

I dont mind weapons like machine guns etc.... being transported as cargo , but IF and only IF they are shipping dangerous chemicals around in EL AL cargo planes then they should not be allowed near civilian airports. I wouldn't want to be sitting on the runway in AMS or any other airport for that matter knowing that a 747 laiden with dangerous chemicals was next to me.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:44 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
I wouldn't want to be sitting on the runway in AMS or any other airport for that matter knowing that a 747 laiden with dangerous chemicals was next to me.

 Smile a lot of chemicals will be dangerous (if used in an improper way). And a lot of dangerous chemicals are transported by air (such as corrisives, toxic substances, environmental hazardous substances, viruses, explosives, radioactive materials etc.), but as long as they are packed to the regulations, in proper boxes or drums, and handled in the correct way, basically nothing can happen.
Such chemicals can even be found in lowerdeck cargo holds on passenger flights, although in smaller quantities.
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dc10bhx
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:50 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
I wouldn't want to be sitting on the runway in AMS or any other airport for that matter knowing that a 747 laiden with dangerous chemicals was next to me.

I hate to tell you OA260 that most of the flights you have been on have probably had at least some dangerous goods being carried as Cargo on board. There are exceptions to this of course (FR / EZY / etc) but there are very few Airlines (especially the long haul carriers) that do not take dangerous goods on board their aircraft. This could be anything from Class 1.4S (explosives) to Class 6 (Poisons) or even Class 8 (Corrosive). There are certain rules about the quantities of dangerous goods that can be carried (both on Passenger and Cargo aircraft) which have to be obeyed but the simple fact is that most Airlines can and do carry Hazardous goods on board their flights.

That reminds me my Hazardous goods course needs to be booked up for next year. Everyone who handles this sort of commodity HAS to undertake training on a regular basis. For me the course is every two years with an exam at the end (which is memory serves me right has a pass mark of about 85%). This will be my 12th course since starting in the airfreight industry (now I do feel old).
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airbuseric
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:57 pm



Quoting DC10BHX (Reply 22):
That reminds me my Hazardous goods course needs to be booked up for next year. Everyone who handles this sort of commodity HAS to undertake training on a regular basis. For me the course is every two years with an exam at the end (which is memory serves me right has a pass mark of about 85%). This will be my 12th course since starting in the airfreight industry (now I do feel old).

hehe, I know what you mean!! I also have to go for refresher next year, and have to score at least 80% to pass.
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OA260
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:57 pm



Quoting DC10BHX (Reply 22):
There are certain rules about the quantities of dangerous goods that can be carried (both on Passenger and Cargo aircraft) which have to be obeyed but the simple fact is that most Airlines can and do carry Hazardous goods on board their flights.

Would civilian airliners be allowed to carry bulk supplies similar to a cargo A/C?? The EL AL example seems to be totally different than practices of other airlines. I presume all these things loaded onto a civilian airliner would be properly documented?? Where as in certain reports EL AL has kept it all top secret.
 
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:23 pm



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 23):
(which is memory serves me right has a pass mark of about 85%).



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 23):
hehe, I know what you mean!! I also have to go for refresher next year, and have to score at least 80% to pass.

Geez you guys have pretty low standards. When Ive taken the test you had to have 95% or better to
pass, anything less and you have to do the whole course over.
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airbuseric
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:24 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
Would civilian airliners be allowed to carry bulk supplies similar to a cargo A/C?? The EL AL example seems to be totally different than practices of other airlines. I presume all these things loaded onto a civilian airliner would be properly documented??

Dangerous Goods of any kind, flown on any IATA carrier, Full Cargo Aircraft or on a Passenger Aircraft, are subject to the regulations, which also mention how these goods should be documented.

So yes, also civilian airliners (carrying pax) are allowed to carry bulk supplies (or palletized, e.g. on Airbus narrowbodies on certain carriers). As said; in smaller quantities only per package or in total. Some items are excluded from being allowed on passenger aircraft.

Everybody should understand that people working with Dangerous Goods in aviation industry are full aware of the risks and the regulations, and treat the cargo in such way that it won't affect the safety of the flight. In case of doubt, cargo will be offloaded and won't fly. In case of wrong documentation, the cargo won't be accepted by an airline official, and returned to the shipper.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
Where as in certain reports EL AL has kept it all top secret.

Also LY has to deal with the regulations, and on their normal services they should do without fail. I simply can't believe that LY will make the mistakes again which is made in the past. And out of AMS,... that would become rather difficult!
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airbuseric
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:26 pm



Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 25):
Geez you guys have pretty low standards. When Ive taken the test you had to have 95% or better to
pass, anything less and you have to do the whole course over

My personal scores are higher and IATA certified. But 80% is a minimum standard to pass the exam as being airline staff. I think cargo forwarders have 70% as a minimum.  Smile
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dc10bhx
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:45 pm



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 27):
Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 25):
Geez you guys have pretty low standards. When Ive taken the test you had to have 95% or better to
pass, anything less and you have to do the whole course over

My personal scores are higher and IATA certified. But 80% is a minimum standard to pass the exam as being airline staff. I think cargo forwarders have 70% as a minimum.

In all fairness the minimum pass marks have changed over the last couple of courses I have completed. At one stage the pass mark was 75% (when I did my first course with LH umpteen years ago at Seeheim) but I deem it to be a failure if I do not average out 98% (which is my average taken over all the other courses that I have done). As Airbuseric has commented these marks are independantly verified by IATA. The company I use actually train the instructers so they have everything tied up pretty well.
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:01 pm

Surprised to see the Cargo*ELAL* titles on the aircraft. Thought their freighters travelled incognito.  Cool
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kappel
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:07 pm



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 18):
Since the accident in 1992, also at AMS, handling relating to LY and Dangerous Goods changed. Dutch authorities are very keen on airlines 'with a name' and check them often.

It's good to hear that security at AMS has tightened after the accident. They still are a frequent visitor at AMS, still with 742's (like the one that crashed). It still gives me an uneasy feeling seeing one of those take off.
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LXA340
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:42 pm

It seriously get's time the LY replaces those planes with B744's
 
todaReisinger
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:10 pm

One more great event organized by El Al's outstanding public relations Department.....

On a day when El Al has signed a historic code-sharing agreement with American Airlines, and has ordered 4 Boeing 737-800s, the airline has made it to be on the top of the news with...yet another "emergency landing". And this one is a special success since it is mixing "747-200 freighter" and "dangerous cargo" originating from nowhere else than AMS......

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 31):
It seriously get's time the LY replaces those planes with B744's

Yes sure, but not before changing yet 3 times the livery, the logo and the crews uniforms; then maybe...
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
BlueSkys
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:27 am



Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
even if it could be dangerous for the rescue workers.

If the plane was full of pax, and was an El AL plane, refusing to tell me what the cargo on board would prevent me from trying rescue anyone....

Quoting OA260 (Reply 7):
Rescue workers should have the right to refuse to attend such emergencies unless they know what the cargo is !!!

YOU COULD NOT BE MORE CORRECT! Why should some rescue worker risk their lives for an Israeli secret.... Hell no!

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
defined,in that anything that comes close to the state of Israel is automatically "secret","not of your business" or" vital for the survival of Israel"...

I would not allow the plane to leave Belgrade without revealing what is on board if I was in any position of power there. They are after all on their soil, with something dangerous and I would want everyone to know what they have to hide.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
The AMS incident has left many people dead and handicaped for the rest of their lives.-the truth about what really went on will always remain "..not of your business.."

It is very sad that people accept that kind of answer... I am sure the Israeli Government would be answering some questions if they were banned from AMS or even the EU for keeping secrets responsible for peoples lives.

Peoples lives are just not worth secrets....

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
Well they should fly them in military planes then and not ''hide'' things in commercial cargo planes

And keep them away from civilian airports!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
I guess unless a major disaster happens where the cargo seriously damages / contaminates large areas then nothing will be done.

You speak the truth...

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 10):
This will turn out as a mechanic defect on the aircraft systems somewhere. You can't blame the sort of cargo carried on this plane.

No, why not? They refuse to provide info on their cargo? non suspicious a bit?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
12 hours of videotape made during the rescue and clean-up operation (42 cassettes in all), along with police audiotapes, are erased and shredded

No surprise at all. That is the way things work when it comes to Israeli politics...

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):
Remember about 2 years ago a UPS DC-8 flight caught fire during landing at PHL as apparently some laptop computer batteries shorted.

But it was not kept secret what was on board.... People have a right to know what El Al is transporting over their heads!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
presume all these things loaded onto a civilian airliner would be properly documented?? Where as in certain reports EL AL has kept it all top secret.

As long as the USA is in bed with Israel, I expect no more clarity.... After all, who cares about the safety of people effected by what El Al carries? Sad

This just reinforces my opinion that the plane should not be let out of Belgrade until we know what was on board... They have an opportunity to make that happen... I hope it does.!
 
Ceph
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:53 am



Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
They wouldn't comment on the cargo then either, even if it could be dangerous for the rescue workers.

I guess that the rescue workers had been briefed on the cargo but just that they do not want to comment to the public on the cargo carried.
 
PanHAM
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:49 am

What I am missing totally here is the routing of the aircraft. Was it on the way to or from TLV?

Also, some here really have some hysteria about DGR. The crew had a fire alarm and made the right thing, an emergency landing at the nearest airport. So where's the big deal?

Rescue crew not helping if DGR is on board? Hey, what's going on? You guys are trained to do the right things immedietaly in seconds after the crash. If you have second thoughts about that because you don't like the airline or the country where it comes from, get another job. Trash collector, or whatever.

Shipping dangerours gods by air on legacy carriers is one of the safest methods of carrying such goods. As Airbuseric has mentioned it, each person handling DGR has to go through training and tests regularly. That includes the shipper, the freight forwarder and the airline resp. their handling agent. DGR is checkd THREE times before it gets on board an aircraft.

There is hardly ever an accident, and if, it is with the integrators. FX is scoring high and they as well as UPS has lost aircrfat because of that. Reason - shippers can send anything for 24 hour delivery and some morons really don't know what they are doing.

Not the case here.
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PanHAM
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:21 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 37):

shhh your sure 'bout that... luck you that you are in Europe and not somewhere else.... like Sudan Big grin

They only whip @ss when you say "dangerous prophets" or dangerous and-I-don't-write-that-name-here. GoOd almighty, I should not write anything before the second cup of Espresso.  Smile It sure is a typo, but is is a Freudian as well, I have little to do with religion.




Quoting JoKeR (Reply 37):

The authorities and the airline refuse to say what was the cargo... so we are debating what would have happened if the plane did not make it to BEG and went down on, say, final approach, over a residential neighborhood. Not nice, ha?

The authorities are right in refusing to supply that information. There was no accident, why should the public be fed with information 99,99% of them could not use anyhow. Besides, may be Serbia has a data protection law, like most countries have these days.


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Quoting JoKeR (Reply 37):
Yes, aviation is a pretty safe mode of transport... what's your point here?

My point is, that shipping dangerous goods by air is a very safe mode of transport. I was not talking about aviation in general.





Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
Would civilian airliners be allowed to carry bulk supplies similar to a cargo A/C?? The EL AL example seems to be totally different than practices of other airlines. I presume all these things loaded onto a civilian airliner would be properly documented?? Where as in certain reports EL AL has kept it all top secret

I try to give you a decent answer on that. First, there is no "bulk supplies" in air cargo. The term "bulk" is used on ocean cargo and refers to coal, grain etc. Shipping DGR is defined and ruled by the IATA regulations Each type of ,material is classified and numbered. The packing method is regulated as well as the net quantitiy. A chemical might be allowed in a small quantity on passenger aircraft and in a larger quantity on cargo a/c. Some items are alllowed on cargo a/c only

The compliance with the rules is mandatory for all carriers. Local authorities have the right to check manifests, also for transiting aircraft. El Al has no special rights and does not handle matters differently than any other airline.

Military flights operate under different standards and proceures. It is common, that civilian airliners are chartered ny the military.

Finally , there are myths about the Bijlmermeer accident, where the EL AL 747-200F crashed into an appartment building. I haven'tgoogled it now and I just write this from memory, but the a/c lost 2 engines, they actually fell off and on this 747 series, uranium was used on certain parts fo the a/c.

Some people tried to blame LY and the type of cargo. There are different opinions on that, however.
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OA260
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:28 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 47):

I try to give you a decent answer on that.

Brilliant , thanks for that . Its exactly the info I wanted .  bigthumbsup 
 
BlueSkys
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:39 pm

Just imagine that an Iran Air landed in AMS and refused to answer to what was onboard, do you think they would be let go so quickly?

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 37):
I'm sure that the Serbian authorities do know what was onboard, its just not for "public consumption".

I would not have thought that Serbia would be all Chummy with it an Israeli airline. With the history of secrecy and the damage it has done to non-Isaeli citizens, I can not think of a good reason to let a 'secret' cargo take off under the Israeli flag.

In my Opinion, there is too much leniency going on. If this was an aircraft from IRAN or fill in the blank, do you think everyone would be so cooperative with a secret cargo on board? The Serbian government has no public reason to comply with an Israeli airline telling them to keep this secret from their citizens. It is shame full that they are keeping it, what on earth would make Serbia cooperate so easily?

Quoting Wukka (Reply 38):
Did I miss where the US was involved with this in any way?

Directly, no. I did not even hint at the possibility that they are.

Let me repeat myself, if Israel and the US were not bed buddies, El Al would not have such ease in trotting all over the world carrying secret undeclared potentially very hazardous cargo over our heads with such ease and arrogance in secrecy.

The USA is the only enabler for such unconditional power that goes with anything Israel does. That was my point. Do you think that if Israel was not backed so strongly by the USA that Serbia would have just let that plane go, without announcing publicly what El Al is flying around with?

I just find it strange that El Al flips it finger at the world and says "none of your business", and Serbia says "Have a Safe trip Home"  confused 
 
777STL
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:35 am



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 49):
Directly, no. I did not even hint at the possibility that they are.

Let me repeat myself, if Israel and the US were not bed buddies, El Al would not have such ease in trotting all over the world carrying secret undeclared potentially very hazardous cargo over our heads with such ease and arrogance in secrecy.

That doesn't make much sense, but considering your nationality, I'm not surprised you have such a viewpoint.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 49):
Let me repeat myself, if Israel and the US were not bed buddies, El Al would not have such ease in trotting all over the world carrying secret undeclared potentially very hazardous cargo over our heads with such ease and arrogance in secrecy.

Military cargo jets for all different nationalities fly over your head every day with dangerous cargo, do you think they all report what they're carrying?
PHX based
 
BlueSkys
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 50):
That doesn't make much sense, but considering your nationality, I'm not surprised you have such a viewpoint.

Are you hinting at the fact that because I am Canadian I am uninformed and I do not have a firm grasp on world issues? Can you possibly be that narrow minded?
Quoting 777STL (Reply 50):
Military cargo jets for all different nationalities fly over your head every day with dangerous cargo, do you think they all report what they're carrying?

El Al is not a military transport company. They are supposed to be a civil Israeli company. The last I checked El Al did not belong to the military of Israel.

[Edited 2007-12-06 19:09:42]
 
777STL
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:36 am



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 51):
Are you hinting at the fact that because I am Canadian I am uninformed and I do not have a firm grasp on world issues? Can you possibly be that narrow minded?

Not at all. I'm merely intimating that because you're Canadian, you may be predisposed to disliking the US. I mean, you're reaching pretty far to drag the US into this. I don't understand how the US is influencing anyone here. You've made your intense dislike for the US known in other threads, so maybe it's not fair of me to pigeonhole all Canadians as such.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 51):
El Al is not a military transport company. They are supposed to be a civil Israeli company. The last I checked El Al did not belong to the military of Israel.

No but my point still stands. You're so worried about El Al doing this even when your own country is probably doing it a dozen times a day over your head. As far as El Al being a civil company,, that's always been rather ambigious. Technically yes, they are, but are they really, in practice?
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Viscount724
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:49 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
every Sunday evening a mysterious El Al cargo flight arrives at Schiphol en route from New York to Tel Aviv. The flights are never displayed on the airport arrival monitors

I have never seen cargo flights, regardless of airline, displayed on arrival monitors at any airports.
 
BlueSkys
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:55 am



Quoting 777STL (Reply 52):
I mean, you're reaching pretty far to drag the US into this. I don't understand how the US is influencing anyone here. You've made your intense dislike for the US known in other threads

I have no dislike for the US at all. For some US policies.... Of course I do. Just as much as I have a big dislike for many Canadian policies... I have no patriotism when it comes to recognizing things I do not agree with about my country or any other. I will not stand up for my country when they are doing the wrong things just because I am Canadian... Be it the USA, Israel, Iran or anyone. When I see some country is doing something wrong in my opinion, I voice it and have no loyalties b/c I am from that country. I believe in truth and justice and Will never support an organization just because I am associated with it by birth and citizenship.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 52):
so maybe it's not fair of me to pigeonhole all Canadians as such.

Of course it would not be fair... That much goes without saying.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 52):
You're so worried about El Al doing this even when your own country is probably doing it a dozen times a day over your head

And I do not agree with my own country doing it over my head as well. I voiced this on many other forums. I am not anti-US at all b/c I am connecting the US & Israel.... Like I stated before, they are bed buddies and Israel gets most of their freedoms due to American politics... If you dont agree with me that is fine. Do some more research and if you still do not agree with me, then we can agree to disagree.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 52):
that's always been rather ambigious. Technically yes, they are, but are they really, in practice?

And that is the problem. Flying around the world masquerading yourself as a civil transport when that is really not the case. That is a misleading problem coming not only from El Al, but the likes of the similar.... carriers and instances.

I dont know about you, but I do not appreciate being lied to about what my 'civil' transport companies are really doing, for what ever sake.... As a Tax payer, I do not want to pay to be mislead. And i will never accept that excuse that it is for my own good and protection..... The most intelligent and sincere people are not in government unfortunatly, and I have always taken that into concideration when listening to my Prime Minister, or President tell me what is really going on.
 
PanHAM
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RE: El Al Cargo 747 Emergency Landing In Belgrade

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:00 am



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 49):
Just imagine that an Iran Air landed in AMS and refused to answer to what was onboard, do you think they would be let go so quickly?

Times and bed buddies change. Not so long ago, in the 80s when Iran was at war with Iraq, Israel supplied military goods to Iran. We had almost daily 747 freighters from LY and IR standing side by side here at FRA and exchanging cargo. It wasn't produce for the field kitchen.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 49):
would not have thought that Serbia would be all Chummy with it an Israeli airline. With the history of secrecy and the damage it has done to non-Isaeli citizens, I can not think of a good reason to let a 'secret' cargo take off under the Israeli flag

I may have missed somehing in this thread, but how do you arrive at the conclusion that there was
a) "secret" cargo on that flight and
b) LY did not reveal the manifest to the Serbian authorities.

The fact that the manifest was not on the front page of the local BEG tabloid does not mean that the Serbian authorities did not know the type of cargo carried. besides - if you refer to the Bijlmermeer accident - it wqas exactly that, an accident. El Al did never ever intentionally anything against "non-Israli citizens".

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 51):

El Al is not a military transport company. They are supposed to be a civil Israeli company. The last I checked El Al did not belong to the military of Israel.

Make it a civilian statement - the military is a customer like any other.

El Al is now a private company but also still the national airline of Israel. As such, they are a vital link for the economy of that country but also for the national security. Under certain circumstances, any airline becomes part of the military or government authorities, when planes are required. LY for instance still holds the world record for the number of passengers carried on a single flight and will do so for a very long time. May be the A380-900 in a charter layout will break it. The record was more than 1000 Ethiopean Jews rescued from Ethiopea on a cargo 747, no seats of course installed.

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