cloudyapple
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8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:01 pm

And considering more A32x for Dragon. What a year for the A330!

This will make Cathay the single largest A330 and A333 operator in the world. Plus the 16 A333s with Dragonair, they will have 56 A333 by 2012.

Quote:
http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/aboutus/pressroomdetails?refID=6bdd51169eea6110VgnVCM32000011d21c39____

Cathay Pacific Group fleet to number 200 in five years with latest aircraft order
6 December 2007

Cathay Pacific Airways today announced a further expansion of its fleet, with a firm order placed for eight more Airbus A330-300 aircraft valued at approximately US$1.7 billion at list prices. Together with the commitment for 17 long-haul passenger aircraft and freighters announced last month, the new aircraft will take the Cathay Pacific Group's fleet size to 200 by 2012.

The latest additions, scheduled for delivery between 2010 and 2012, will take the number of A330-300s in Cathay Pacific's fleet to 40 - 29 are already in operation and three more are set for delivery in 2008. Another 16 of the aircraft type are operated by sister airline Dragonair, meaning the Cathay Pacific Group operates the largest A330-300 fleet in the world.

...

Mr Tyler said the Group is also considering leasing or buying more Airbus A320 aircraft to meet expected growth on secondary routes in the region. Dragonair currently operates a fleet of 16 of the aircraft type.


[Edited 2007-12-06 10:15:46]
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EI321
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:11 pm

How many orders is that for the A330 this year (firm+outstanding) ?
 
WINGS
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:24 pm



Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
How many orders is that for the A330 this year (firm+outstanding) ?


In 2007, Airbus has announced a total of 293 orders ( firm/pending). It would seem that Airbus will most likely reach 200 firm in 2007 with some being firmed up in 2008.

Will be interesting to see what got firmed up in November and what will be firmed up until the end of the year.  Smile

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moo
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
How many orders is that for the A330 this year (firm+outstanding) ?

November started with -

60 A330-200
66 A330-200F
35 A330-300

for a total of 161 firm orders.

In November the following firm orders were announced -

10 A330-200 China Southern
2 A330-200 KLM
2 A330-200 Oman Air
3 A330-300 Oman Air
5 A330-200 US Airways

and the following pendings were announced -

40 CASGC

and with this announcement, A330-300 for Cathay, that brings us to a current total of 191 firm orders, according to the Airbus spreadsheet and confirmed orders via EADS/Airbus press releases.

Notable to add to that is the 6 Aer Lingus A330-300 aircraft that were apparently firmed by the airline on the 14th of November via press release, but EADS/Airbus have not released anything themselves to this effect so I wait to see that on the O&D spreadsheet before I count it. Just reading the release again, its contingent on the order being passed at an extraordinary shareholders meeting, so I definitely do not count it as firm atm.

[Edited 2007-12-06 10:46:14]
 
kaitak
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:46 pm

Will any new aircraft be delivered in KA livery, including A320s? Although the article states that KA already operates 16 A320s, I wonder if at any time the whole fleet, including the A32Xs would be repainted in CX colours?

It's certainly great to see such ambitious plans and of course, we have the A350 -v- 787 competition next year.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:24 pm

Between the new 77Ws and A330s, I wonder if CX might be waiting until the late 2010's to begin deliveries for their next generation fleet so they can see what the 787 and A350 families have to offer across the board?

As such, I wonder if they might not actually look to make a decision until post-2010.

[Edited 2007-12-06 12:25:04]
 
abba
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:48 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
As such, I wonder if they might not actually look to make a decision until post-2010.

That will be very typical CX...
 
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PM
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:41 pm

These 8 new ones wouldn't also have Trent 700s, would they?  Wink  bigthumbsup 
 
slz396
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:21 pm

Airbus has put the press release on the follow up order online:

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre.../07_12_06_a330_cathay_pacific.html

They will be RR powered indeed according to the press release.


BTW- I suggest to change the title of the topic to 'Cathay orders 8 A330-300' to fully reflect the content of this topic, because at first I thought it was about a lease agreement! Given the low number of hits this topic has received, I have a feeling I am not the only one...

[Edited 2007-12-06 15:23:57]
 
fruitbat
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:26 pm



Quoting PM (Reply 7):
These 8 new ones wouldn't also have Trent 700s, would they?

Of course - what sane airline would choose anything else??  Big grin

 duck 
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DocLightning
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:04 am

It's interesting. Cathay has been very reluctant to deviate from their current fleet composition. No interest in the 787, A350, or A380.

Why would you order an A330 when you could order an A350?
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fruitbat
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:10 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Why would you order an A330 when you could order an A350?

Good question. Maybe because you don't have to wait 7+ years?
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:12 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Why would you order an A330 when you could order an A350?

1. Because you'll get them sooner.
2. Because you already have a huge fleet of A333s.
3. Because they are not aimed at exactly the same markets.
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:26 am



Quoting PM (Reply 12):
1. Because you'll get them sooner.
2. Because you already have a huge fleet of A333s.
3. Because they are not aimed at exactly the same markets.

And they are still money-making planes with proven dispatch reliability!
 
QantasHeavy
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:55 am

Hope these are for 8+ hour routes and new CX interiors... the old 330s in their fleet need a make-over inside.

You can get on three different types of CX 333s: crappy ("330"), nice ("333") and very nice ("33B"). Having recently been stuck on "crappy" HKG-SYD I was not happy. My co-worker got the 33B on the same route a few weekd later -- he was very happy!
 
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Why would you order an A330 when you could order an A350?

1. Because you'll get them sooner.
2. Because you already have a huge fleet of A333s.
3. Because they are not aimed at exactly the same markets.

And the history of A340-600 made CX very conservative about buying newly designed planes. They would rather wait to see how it goes when other carriers start operating them. Although B748F was an exception maybe because they are confident it will really be good!

[Edited 2007-12-06 20:36:56]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:55 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
No interest in the 787, A350, or A380.

CX DFO recently said on CX's internal website (I'd rather not quote him verbatim on here), that CX wasn't negociating with either B or A on the 787 and A350 nor on the 748i and A380. However, they receive regular briefings from both manufacturers on these products. He said CX has currently no plan to get rid of the A343s either.

He said CX will likely need a larger a/c in the fleet one day and will evaluate both the 748i and A380, but no plans of that in the near future.

The current focus is on building up capacity through frequency, thus the addition of the 77W and, now, more A333s...
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abba
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:18 am



Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 15):
And the history of A340-600 made CX very conservative about buying newly designed planes. They would rather wait to see how it goes when other carriers start operating them. Although B748F was an exception maybe because they are confident it will really be good!

Sure - and the problems with the RR fans on their 330s (it grounded their entire fleet at some point) and the many teething problems on their 777s that filled South China Morning post the first few months they were in service with CX telling that now this and now that 777 had to return to base due to a fire alarm going off somewhere etc etc etc.
 
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PM
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:37 am

By the time the last of these new A333s is delivered Cathay's oldest one will be 17 years old!  Wow!

How often has it happened that an airline has been taking delivery of the same widebody type over a 17-year period? There can't be many examples.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:45 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Cathay has been very reluctant to deviate from their current fleet composition. No interest in the 787, A350, or A380

Something tells me that if 787-10 was available to offer, CX would have purchased it.

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 15):
CX very conservative about buying newly designed planes. They would rather wait to see how it goes when other carriers start operating them. Although B748F was an exception maybe because they are confident it will really be good!

748F is not entirely new design. It's an update of a proven, existing design, and since there is nothing else available in its class, CX would be unwise not to purchase it, given the amount of cargo traffic they deal with.
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Francoflier
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:47 am



Quoting Abba (Reply 17):

Well, CX has had trouble with the introduction of some types of their fleet, but remember that back then they didn't mind getting the very first frames off the assembly line, so as to get a discount...

They have some of the very first T7 out there (amongst which one of the prototype), and some very early 744 and A333 as well.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Resocha

1st 777 prototype


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © K.L.Yim

3rd out of the assembly line


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Anthony Cheng - HKAEC

another test frame...
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PM
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:48 am



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 19):
Something tells me that if 787-10 was available to offer, CX would have purchased it.

So why haven't they bought the very similar A350-900 which is available?
 
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:14 am

What a year for the A330! Really, the A333 is a great winner in its category.
With the 333 and the 77W, CX is now in good position to take time and have deep look at both the A350XWB (most likely the A359?) and the 787. Is a mix order a possibility? For example, 787-8/9 and A350-1000? Or will they go one way, A350-900/1000 for fleet commonality...  duck 
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CX Flyboy
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:47 pm

Francoflier, don't forget there are two A330s which were previous test frames, and that we also operate the prototype 777-300 in addition to the ones you mention. We will be taking one of the first few 747-8Fs.
 
columba
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:30 pm



Quoting PM (Reply 18):
How often has it happened that an airline has been taking delivery of the same widebody type over a 17-year period? There can't be many examples.

I think it happened before with Dc 10s and 747 classics.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:55 pm



Quoting PM (Reply 21):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 19):
Something tells me that if 787-10 was available to offer, CX would have purchased it.

So why haven't they bought the very similar A350-900 which is available?

Maybe because 787-10 as currently defined would be much better heavy-hauler on the routes A330s currently fly on whereas A350-900 would be too much of a plane for a sub-2,000nm route?
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:50 pm



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 25):
Maybe because 787-10 as currently defined would be much better heavy-hauler on the routes A330s currently fly on whereas A350-900 would be too much of a plane for a sub-2,000nm route?

 yes 

A 787-10 would make a better A330-300 replacement then an A350-900 thanks to a (likely) lower MEW and more LD3 positions to carry more revenue cargo.
 
excalibur
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:40 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
A 787-10 would make a better A330-300 replacement then an A350-900 thanks to a (likely) lower MEW and more LD3 positions to carry more revenue cargo.

Considering some of the CX A330-300 missions, specially the short to medium haul routes, is it possible to quantify the improvement the 787-10 will offer them on those particular missions?

Alex.
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cloudyapple
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:47 pm



Quoting Excalibur (Reply 27):
is it possible to quantify the improvement the 787-10 will offer them on those particular missions?

If only anyone has any information on the -10's specs.

It's a paper plane as of yet. There are lots of speculations. There is no publicly available information from Boeing.
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:48 pm

Speaking of which, which routes does CX assign their A330-300's? I keep on thinking routes from HKG to TPE, MNL, BKK, KUL and SIN, regional routes where there A333 would be well-suited.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:51 pm



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):
They have some of the very first T7 out there

Just a note - it first flew in 1994 but Cathay bought it from Boeing in 2000.
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cloudyapple
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 29):
Speaking of which, which routes does CX assign their A330-300's? I keep on thinking routes from HKG to TPE, MNL, BKK, KUL and SIN, regional routes where there A333 would be well-suited.

Basically you'll see the A333 on all routes to China (on Cathay's own services), NE/SE Asia, India, CMB when it resumes, Middle East except RUH and all of Australia.

[Edited 2007-12-07 09:06:58]
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abba
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 19):
Something tells me that if 787-10 was available to offer, CX would have purchased it.

Not before it had been in service for a few years and proven itself!

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):
Well, CX has had trouble with the introduction of some types of their fleet, but remember that back then they didn't mind getting the very first frames off the assembly line, so as to get a discount...

They have some of the very first T7 out there (amongst which one of the prototype), and some very early 744 and A333 as well.

True - and they had problems. And the local culture of placing blame kicked in. Do you remember the early days of their brand new airport? No less than three official inquirers into who to blame for the problems that lasted less than a week: The government. LESCO and the High Court. The daily joke was - as these three independently working blaming committees didn't coordinate their efforts in any way - called in the same persons at the same time. Where would they go?

One long hilarious joke!

Now it seems to be CX policy under no cirkumstances to get unproven products again (save for the 748s that will be for cargo...)

[Edited 2007-12-07 09:04:39]
 
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Stitch
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:40 pm



Quoting Excalibur (Reply 27):
Considering some of the CX A330-300 missions, specially the short to medium haul routes, is it possible to quantify the improvement the 787-10 will offer them on those particular missions?

Assuming Boeing does nothing but stretch the 787-9 another 6m, you'd be looking at roughly a 128t MEW.* Airbus is still playing the MEW's of the A350 close to the vest, but I have to believe it is higher for the same reason why a 77L is not lighter then an A330-300 - you need structure to support MTOW. And an A350-900's MTOW of 265t is 13t higher then the 252t MTOW of the 787-10.

A 787-10 should have 44 LD3 positions and an A350-900 should have 36. With similar passenger counts, that would leave upwards of 8 additional LD3 positions available for revenue cargo on the 787-10 vs. the A350-900. For comparison purposes, an A330-300 has 32 LD3 positions.


* - In the interests of full disclosure, this 128t MEW is speculation on my part because Boeing raised the MEW of the 787-8 in September 2007, but did not list the new MEWs of the 787-3 and 787-9. So I just added the MEW boost of the 787-8 to the values I had for the 787-10, which themselves were extrapolated from the values of the 787-8 and 787-9. However, I believe this figure will be close since a 787-10 should not need much additional reinforcement over the 787-9.
 
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zeke
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:44 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):

The 787 makes as much sense to CX/KA for this joint order (the 330s will be for both airlines, split has not been determined) as southwest adding 8xA321 for more underfloor cargo space.

The 787 and 350 never had a look in for this order, nor will the 737 for narrow body lease. Fleet communality is the key for small increases like this.
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Stitch
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 34):
The 787 and 350 never had a look in for this order, nor will the 737 for narrow body lease. Fleet communality is the key for small increases like this.

Understood.

But we know CX won't fly the A330-300 forever, so when it comes time to replace the entire family, the 787-10 could have the edge on the A350-900 for the reasons I noted in Reply 33. And that was where my answer was intended to be focussed.
 
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zeke
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:22 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
CX won't fly the A330-300 forever

It is the combined entity of CX/KA/LD. This order point to the type being in the fleet for another 10-15 years, possibly a lot longer if A330F conversions take place which would be about the right timing after the "internal" 744BCF conversions.

Any 330 replacement will be looked at with A320/A321/A300/777/A340/744 replacement, and will be looked at across all entities.

Dont think for a second the decision will be looked at in isolation for a replacement of 56 330s, the replacement fleet size will likely be triple figures.

I would think the 787-10 would be a minimum size considered, even that gives limited growth opportunities over a 10-15 year period.
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PADSpot
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:13 pm

From the press statement ..

Quote:
Cathay Pacific Airways today announced a further expansion of its fleet, with a firm order placed for eight more Airbus A330-300 aircraft valued at approximately US$1.7 billion at list prices.

Am I missing something? Since when sells the A333 at a list price of 212.5 Mil$ a piece? Last time I checked it was around 180Mil$ ...
 
WINGS
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:23 pm



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):

Am I missing something? Since when sells the A333 at a list price of 212.5 Mil$ a piece? Last time I checked it was around 180Mil$ ...

Don't forget about the engines.  Wink

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karan69
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:42 pm

What is MEW and MTOW of the 333/332/343 compared to the 7810 and 359.

Karan
 
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Stitch
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:51 pm



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 39):
What is MEW and MTOW of the 333/332/343 compared to the 7810 and 359.

A330-200 MEW: 106t
A330-300 MEW: 108t
A340-300 MEW: 125t

A330-200 MTOW: 192t to 233t
A330-300 MTOW: 184t to 233t
A340-300 MTOW: 254t to 278t

(All data per Airbus' Airport Planning Documents)
 
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Francoflier
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:40 am



Quoting Abba (Reply 32):
Do you remember the early days of their brand new airport? No less than three official inquirers into who to blame for the problems that lasted less than a week

Well, I'm new to the area and I missed that event, but I've been here long enough to understand why it must have happened that way!  no 

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 30):
Just a note - it first flew in 1994 but Cathay bought it from Boeing in 2000.

Thanks for the precision!
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karan69
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:26 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):

Thanks a lot for the info mate

Karan
 
ronerone
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:47 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):
They have some of the very first T7

Wow. didnt know that B-HNL was one of the very first! I've been on this particular plane last year and i loved it!

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 29):
Speaking of which, which routes does CX assign their A330-300's? I keep on thinking routes from HKG to TPE, MNL, BKK, KUL and SIN, regional routes where there A333 would be well-suited.

DXB is one for sure. I wonder if DXB (and BAH) will ever get the 33B configuration. At the moment its the 333.

I think the A333's for now are perfect for CX's strategy which is primarly focused on increasing frequency rather than capacity. Given that these aircraft have proved themselves over and over again, added to the fact that CX can recieve them much sooner than say the 787 or the A350 (with more confidence at this stage), they are a perfect fit! A similar initiative is also evident in their long-haul/ULH ops where the 77W also seems like a perfect fit for that.

Congrats CX! You rock!

Regards,
Roni
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andrewtang
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:51 pm

RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:25 am



Quoting Ronerone (Reply 43):
Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):
They have some of the very first T7

Wow. didnt know that B-HNL was one of the very first! I've been on this particular plane last year and i loved it!

It is infact the first Boeing 777 prototype bearing L/N 1. Originally it was fitted with Pratt & Whittney engines and Boeing re-engined it to Rolls-Royce Trent after CX bought it.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: 8 More A333 For Cathay, Fleet Of 200 In 5yrs

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:37 pm



Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 44):
It is infact the first Boeing 777 prototype bearing L/N 1. Originally it was fitted with Pratt & Whittney engines and Boeing re-engined it to Rolls-Royce Trent after CX bought it.

Yup, and exactly the same happened with B-HLJ:


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Photo © Jing-Kai Chiou



a.k.a. F-WWSA, cn 012


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First A330 prototype, originally fitted with PWs and later retrofitted to a -341 w/ RR engines for CX.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.