CDG
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AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:44 am

Air France has unveiled the new Paris CDG - London Heathrow schedule for Summer 2008, which is being reduced from 12 to 7 daily flights.

AF1080 CDG0730 - 0750LHR 321
AF1280 CDG1000 - 1015LHR 321
AF1480 CDG1330 - 1345LHR 321
AF1680 CDG1610 - 1625LHR 321
AF1780 CDG1800 - 1815LHR 320
AF1880 CDG1900 - 1920LHR 320
AF1980 CDG2005 - 2025LHR 321

AF1981 LHR0640 - 0900CDG 321
AF1781 LHR0745 - 1000CDG 320
AF1081 LHR1015 - 1230CDG 321
AF1281 LHR1305 - 1515CDG 321
AF1481 LHR1600 - 1810CDG 321
AF1681 LHR1800 - 2010CDG 321
AF1881 LHR2015 - 2225CDG 320

Cheers

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Burkhard
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:46 am

So what do they do with the 5 slots. Hm?
 
pilot21
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:48 am



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
So what do they do with the 5 slots. Hm?

Delta are getting some for their new LHR-US flights, are any of AF's slots going to CO or NW as well?
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GCT64
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:54 am

A slot for AF LHR-LAX perchance?
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MAH4546
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:56 am



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
So what do they do with the 5 slots. Hm?

Three are going to Delta, one is going to LAX-LHR on AF metal. As for the fifth, who knows.
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UAL777UK
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:58 am

With the new High Speed line now opened between St Pancras and Gar Du Nord, I wonder what the percentage of O & D traffic is now between LHR and CDG and vice versa?
Why would you want to go through all the aggro of getting to the airport so far in advance, go through the pain of security, then at the other end have the hassle of getting in to Paris, when you can sit back and relax on the train. Unless there is alot of connecting traffic, I would not be surprised if AF and for that matter BA, scale back even further in the near future.
 
edina
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:26 pm

The bulk of AF LHR-CDG flights are currently operated by A318/319/320 with 2/12 being on an A321 whilst next summer will have most flights on A321s, so a considerable reduction in frequency, but not in capacity.
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jobalas
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:31 pm

And what about other flights? Will AF go to LAS, REC or SJO?
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LHR777
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:53 pm

And to coincide, BA will be operating 11 roundtrips Monday to Friday, 8 roundtrips on Saturday and 10 roundtrips on Sundays between LHR and CDG, all scheduled to be operated by Airbus A319's. Although several will switch to A321's to match capacity demand.
 
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OA260
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:13 pm



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
With the new High Speed line now opened between St Pancras and Gar Du Nord, I wonder what the percentage of O & D traffic is now between LHR and CDG and vice versa?
Why would you want to go through all the aggro of getting to the airport so far in advance, go through the pain of security, then at the other end have the hassle of getting in to Paris, when you can sit back and relax on the train.

Exactly . I see once more and more rail routes open up flights under 600 miles will be hard hit even more. The LHR-CDG flights will eventually be mostly transit at CDG Hub. I wonder if they will ever run a service St Pancras to CDG to connect to AF!!!
 
Farnborough24
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:38 pm

Agree with all the comments regarding the Eurostar-I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train. It's now something like 2 hours 45 mins, if that, from central London to Paris on the train. There is simply no way from city centre to city centre that flying will beat that. I think that as high speed train lines become more common, possibly with greater development of maglev technology over the next 20 or so years, short distance flights (ie. under 800 miles) between major European cities will suffer more and more, and will become purely feeder flights. Don't get me wrong, I love to fly, but Eurostar, and any similarly easy and quick service between other major cities, wins every time for me.

Having said all that, I am pleased about that really, because it will free up slots for more long haul operations, which let's face it are miles more interesting anyway.
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B747forever
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:40 pm



Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3):
A slot for AF LHR-LAX perchance?

That is the first thing I also thought about.
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cloudyapple
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:30 pm

Without a doubt there are going to be an additional 5 pairs of transatlantics in S08, wherever they go. Any decrease in shorthaul flights from this point onwards by any carrier is more than likely to become additional transatlantics on a flight for flight basis.

Heathrow transatlantics are going to be a bloodbath in S08. Yield will be next to nothing almost for sure. It's more interesting to see who will be the first to drop out rather than where the first lot of additional flights are going. Not necessarily the new entrants or the locals but the likes of Air India to JFK and Air NZ to LAX might be worst hit.

Also interesting is the sort of impact to Heathrow as a transit hub with the cut in shorthaul flights to make room for the additional tranatlantics.
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B747forever
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:35 pm



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 12):
Air NZ to LAX might be worst hit.

It will be really hard for NZ to survive when AF also start service to LAX,.
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avek00
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10):
short distance flights (ie. under 800 miles) between major European cities will suffer more and more, and will become purely feeder flights

That has already been taking place for over a decade, and has less to do with expanded train services than it does with the stimulation of an added number of ex-Europe longhaul gateways.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 12):
Not necessarily the new entrants or the locals but the likes of Air India to JFK and Air NZ to LAX might be worst hit.

I beg to differ here. AI and NZ have sizeable thru-traffic flows, and ability to closely fluctuate capacity with demand. Furthermore, they run more cheaply than their competitors. IMHO, the airlines facing the biggest threat are Euro legacies, for reasons I articulated in other threads.
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RedChili
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:13 pm



Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10):
I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train.

... or be an a.nutter with a zeal to improve your A319 statistics... ?
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Viscount724
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:09 am



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 12):
Without a doubt there are going to be an additional 5 pairs of transatlantics in S08, wherever they go. Any decrease in shorthaul flights from this point onwards by any carrier is more than likely to become additional transatlantics on a flight for flight basis.

KL also has 4 underutilized LHR slots currently used by what I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR, KL's twice-daily LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN service with Fokker 50s. I expect those routes are likely to be dropped as soon as they need the slots for longhaul services.
 
ikramerica
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:17 am

Almost all frequencies are A321s starting next year. What sized planes do they use now?
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jouy31
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10):
There is simply no way from city centre to city centre that flying will beat that.

Well, I live outside Paris and need more time to reach Gare du Nord than Roissy. On the UK side, my meetings are in Hounslow and Uxbridge, so flying is and will continue to be the best option. The decrease of AF flights between LHR and CDG simply means that I will move a greater share of my flights to BA.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:06 am



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14):
I beg to differ here. AI and NZ have sizeable thru-traffic flows, and ability to closely fluctuate capacity with demand. Furthermore, they run more cheaply than their competitors. IMHO, the airlines facing the biggest threat are Euro legacies, for reasons I articulated in other threads.

Yes the there is a through traffic component but what the 5th freedom traffic helps prop up these routes significantly. There are other examples
- All of Singapore's transpac services stop somewhere in Asia picking up passengers. When you compare that to the few direct services they offer, it's quite obvious where the money is.
- Thai is putting the stop back after experimenting with direct services.
- Cathay's JFK via YVR is doing very well. So well they have not stopped it after they started their 2 direct JFKs.
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B747forever
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:44 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR,

That is true, and I am sure that EIN and RTM will lose their service to LHR, in favour for long-haul flights.
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boysteve
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:16 am



Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10):
Agree with all the comments regarding the Eurostar-I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train. It's now something like 2 hours 45 mins, if that, from central London to Paris on the train

London to Paris is 2h15mins by rail actually, and 1h51mins London to Brussels.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:19 am



Quoting Boysteve (Reply 21):
London to Paris is 2h15mins by rail actually, and 1h51mins London to Brussels

I rest my case!

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
It will be really hard for NZ to survive when AF also start service to LAX,.

I would not be so sure about that. IMHO, AF are in for a fight on this route.
 
theginge
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:35 am

I can see them being reduced further in years to come as more people go on the train if they are doing city centre to city centre.
 
Aisak
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:26 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
KL also has 4 underutilized LHR slots currently used by what I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR, KL's twice-daily LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN service with Fokker 50s. I expect those routes are likely to be dropped as soon as they need the slots for longhaul services.

The AF-KLM group has several slots at LHR. 12 for CDG services, 3 for RTM, 3 for EIN and 9 for AMS. Given Eurostar travel times will improve and new operators arrive at LHR next year, the AF-KLM group have put all slots in a basket and hand-picked 'em out one by one to create this schedule. Some of these flights don't have the same take-off and land times than current AF services. It could be better, but I guess it's all they can achieve with currents slots to match future needs (feed the CDG and AMS hubs and launch new TATL services: LAX, ATL(DL), JFK(DL)... any word on DTW?)

Quoting CDG" class=quote target=_blank>CDG (Thread starter):
Air France has unveiled the new Paris CDG - London Heathrow schedule for Summer 2008, which is being reduced from 12 to 7 daily flights.

Rearranging the flights like this, we can get ?valuable? information:

AF1080 CDG0730 - 0750LHR 321
AF1081 LHR1015 - 1230CDG 321

AF1280 CDG1000 - 1015LHR 321
AF1281 LHR1305 - 1515CDG 321

AF1480 CDG1330 - 1345LHR 321
AF1481 LHR1600 - 1810CDG 321

AF1680 CDG1610 - 1625LHR 321
AF1681 LHR1800 - 2010CDG 321

AF1780 CDG1800 - 1815LHR 320
AF1881 LHR2015 - 2225CDG 320*

AF1880 CDG1900 - 1920LHR 320
AF1781 LHR0745 - 1000CDG 320*

AF1980 CDG2005 - 2025LHR 321
AF1981 LHR0640 - 0900CDG 321

(*Given flight numbers these two flight could actually be swapped, but I don't find any logic in forcing a 55 turn arround to let the other 320 stopped at LHR for 12+ hours)

The pro of this new schedule is of course the free slots for new TATL service but it has a very big con... LOOOOONG turn-arround times.
There's only one flight returning at CDG using under 2 hours of ground time at LHR. Also the 2 latter flights seem odd. If these two planes are going to overnight at LHR, why do they send them to LHR so early? I though late LHR arrival slots were relatively easy to get.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:13 pm



Quoting Aisak (Reply 24):
The pro of this new schedule is of course the free slots for new TATL service but it has a very big con... LOOOOONG turn-arround times. There's only one flight returning at CDG using under 2 hours of ground time at LHR. Also the 2 latter flights seem odd. If these two planes are going to overnight at LHR, why do they send them to LHR so early?

The reason is to be found in AF's trying to establish optimal connectivity into and out of its longhaul departure and arrival banks, which is one of the main reasons why the airline continues to operate into LHR.
 
theginge
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:40 pm



Quoting Aisak (Reply 24):
(*Given flight numbers these two flight could actually be swapped, but I don't find any logic in forcing a 55 turn arround to let the other 320 stopped at LHR for 12+ hours)

The pro of this new schedule is of course the free slots for new TATL service but it has a very big con... LOOOOONG turn-arround times.
There's only one flight returning at CDG using under 2 hours of ground time at LHR. Also the 2 latter flights seem odd. If these two planes are going to overnight at LHR, why do they send them to LHR so early? I though late LHR arrival slots were relatively easy to get.

There have to be long turnarounds late in the evening to facilitate having an aircraft at LHR ready for the first departure the next day.

Late arrival slots are easier to get but maybe for summer 08 there aren't any available. Or a reason that makes more sense is that these flights leaving Paris at 1900 & 2000 are quite popular and there wouldn't be much demand for one at 2100 so they stay at LHR until the morning.
 
vv701
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:18 am



Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10):
Agree with all the comments regarding the Eurostar-I think if you were an O&D passenger you would have to be mad, or have been offered a very, very cheap airfare, to fly over the train. It's now something like 2 hours 45 mins, if that, from central London to Paris on the train. There is simply no way from city centre to city centre that flying will beat that.

Although quite a lot of people live in central Paris the number living in central London is limited. Recognising that even business travellers on the LON-PAR route are likely to be travelling from home to office or office to home, in the end it all comes down to where you live. But the time savings are not that much.

The Telegraph newspaper organised a race to mark the opening of the St Pancras high speed line. Two correspondents started their journey at Big Ben in London and finished it at the Parc de Champ by the Eiffel Tower. The person travelling by train took 4 hours and 10 minutes and arrived 30 minutes ahead of the correspondent travelling by aircraft via LHR.

The problem in travelling by either method is ensuring you get to St Pancras or T1 in time to catch your train or plane. So in the end the quickest route depends on where your home or the office is located. For me the plane was not good once the LHR-ORY service was discontinued. Although I live only a 40 minute drive from LHR - allow 60 minutes for traffic hold ups - our Paris office was close to ORY and right across Paris from CDG. But if our office had been quicker to reach from CDG than the Gare du Nord it would be a no brainer.

For the British business traveller the curse is the hour difference on the clocks. With around 4 hours of travelling time plus the hour on the clocks, getting to the Paris office in time for anything earlier than lunch is virtually impossible wherever you live. But coming home is great.

In the Telegraph 'race' rail won hands down on cost (£56 v £96). But again this changes round if you live near the airport and can avoid the cost of the Heathrow Express, particularly if you have to use it in the reverse direction to get to St Pancras quickly. However like most high speed rail links the rail cost is a highly subsidised price with the capital cost of the Channel Tunnel never ever going to be recovered with the current contribution barely covering interest costs and that of the high speed track this side of the tunnel unlikely to be recovered in most of our life times. However this does not mean the investment is not worthwhile from a non-financial perspective. In the Telegraph 'race' the train won hands down on environmental friendliness - .005 against .055 tonnes of carbon emissions from the air journey.
 
runway23
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:23 am



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 25):
The reason is to be found in AF's trying to establish optimal connectivity into and out of its longhaul departure and arrival banks, which is one of the main reasons why the airline continues to operate into LHR.

Also important to note that AF's current flights to LHR are often delayed. With a two hour + turn around versus 1hr right now you establish an operation less prone to delay. With the fewer number of flights this will be more important than ever before.
 
albird87
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:11 am



Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
It will be really hard for NZ to survive when AF also start service to LAX,.

I dont see why NZ will be hard put by this route. BA and VS have a lot of services on this route already. Why AF will push NZ more i dont see it happening.
 
eghansen
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:54 am



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Three are going to Delta, one is going to LAX-LHR on AF metal. As for the fifth, who knows.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14):
I beg to differ here. AI and NZ have sizeable thru-traffic flows, and ability to closely fluctuate capacity with demand. Furthermore, they run more cheaply than their competitors. IMHO, the airlines facing the biggest threat are Euro legacies, for reasons I articulated in other threads.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
It will be really hard for NZ to survive when AF also start service to LAX,.

Certainly on the LAX-LHR route, the competition is going to be fierce. It is already a bargain route during the winter months ($550) in October, November, February and March. Eight nonstops with five different airlines. Air France adding service will make it worse.

I don't think NZ will pull its flight. It will continue to have major service AKL-LHR and the alternative routing for LAX-LHR is HKG-LHR, also a highly competitive route. Virgin, BA, Qantas, Cathay, NZ have 10 flights per day.
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C010T3
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:33 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
KL also has 4 underutilized LHR slots currently used by what I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR, KL's twice-daily LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN service with Fokker 50s. I expect those routes are likely to be dropped as soon as they need the slots for longhaul services.

Couldn't they shift RTM and EIN services from LHR to LCY?
Actually, how is the situation at LCY? Could we see more flights there? It wouldn't have a compensating effect in terms of capacity, but in terms of frequency it could be an alternative.
 
Humberside
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:53 pm



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 31):
Couldn't they shift RTM and EIN services from LHR to LCY?
Actually, how is the situation at LCY? Could we see more flights there? It wouldn't have a compensating effect in terms of capacity, but in terms of frequency it could be an alternative.

LCY has reached the limit of flights it's allowed. AFAIK theres a planning application to increase the limit, but it's full at peak times. Shoulder peak slots may be available
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C010T3
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:17 pm



Quoting Humberside (Reply 32):

LCY has reached the limit of flights it's allowed. AFAIK theres a planning application to increase the limit, but it's full at peak times. Shoulder peak slots may be available

I see. Thank you!
 
hardiwv
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:34 pm



Quoting Humberside (Reply 32):
LCY has reached the limit of flights it's allowed. AFAIK theres a planning application to increase the limit, but it's full at peak times. Shoulder peak slots may be available

Correct. But the problem is that flights from LCY are mostly to ORY and not CDG. Also AF could deploy bigger regional aircraft on the route to maximise flight operations.

Rgs,
 
nzrich
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:01 pm



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 30):
I don't think NZ will pull its flight. It will continue to have major service AKL-LHR and the alternative routing for LAX-LHR is HKG-LHR, also a highly competitive route. Virgin, BA, Qantas, Cathay, NZ have 10 flights per day.

Air NZ will still do very well on this route as it can fill the plane with AKL-LHR-AKL passengers as well .. Air NZ is good on that route for star it brings a quality award winning product .. If anything its AF that needs to worry as neither LAX or LHR are its home markets ..
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runway23
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:24 pm



Quoting Nzrich (Reply 35):
Air NZ will still do very well on this route as it can fill the plane with AKL-LHR-AKL passengers as well .. Air NZ is good on that route for star it brings a quality award winning product .. If anything its AF that needs to worry as neither LAX or LHR are its home markets ..

Although the flight will receive feed from delta's hub in LAX. Of course the main problem there is that DL are at T5 whilst AF are with KL/NW at T2.
 
skyteam2000
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:49 pm

A Steward from AF told me that AF will do:

LHR-LAX-LHR-JFK-LHR

Delta will take some slots at LHR and DL LYS-JFK and ORY-JFK.
 
runway23
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:44 am



Quoting Skyteam2000 (Reply 37):
A Steward from AF told me that AF will do:

LHR-LAX-LHR-JFK-LHR

Delta will take some slots at LHR and DL LYS-JFK and ORY-JFK.

The steward isn't quite accurate. The entire skyteam plan for Heathrow-USA is:

LHR-LAX will be operated by Air France (Flights 60/61)
LHR-JFK operated by Delta (Flights 1/2, 3/4)
LHR-ATL operated by Delta (Flights 178/179)
LHR-IAH operated by Continental (Flights 4/5, 32/33)
LHR-EWR operated by Continental (Flights 18/19, 28/29)
LHR-DTW operated by NWA (Details announced tomorrow)
LHR-MSP operated by NWA (Details announced tomorrow)
LHR-SEA operated by NWA. (Details announced tomorrow)

LHR-LAX/JFK/ATL will all carry both the AF and DL codes. They are part of the joint-venture signed in October which also includes JFK-LYS/ORY operated by DL. As a whole it doesn't matter who is operating the flight for both companies' bottom line as they split the costs and revenues.

LHR-DTW/MSP/SEA will all have both the NW and KL code as per every transatlantic flight operated in joint-venture by NW/KL.
 
B747forever
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RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:41 am



Quoting Runway23 (Reply 38):
LHR-LAX will be operated by Air France (Flights 60/61)

How do you know the flight number??? I cant see that AF have load their LHR-LAX flight.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Yak97
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:48 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
KL also has 4 underutilized LHR slots currently used by what I believe are the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR, KL's twice-daily LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN service with Fokker 50s. I expect those routes are likely to be dropped as soon as they need the slots for longhaul services.

These flights I believe are related to big corporate customers (Shell / Philips) so may not be so easy to drop.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:18 am



Quoting Yak97 (Reply 40):

These flights I believe are related to big corporate customers (Shell / Philips) so may not be so easy to drop.

Sure they will. End the corporate travel contracts, and drop them to use the slots on potentially more profitable flights. Unless for some odd reason the travel contracts with companies for those routes have stipulations that don't allow the routes to be discontinued (which would be moronic on KLM's part if they did), ending them is extremely easy.
a.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:32 am



Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
That is true, and I am sure that EIN and RTM will lose their service to LHR, in favour for long-haul flights.

Well - KL S08 skeds appear to be loaded showing 3xday (except Sunday 2x) on RTM-LHR and 2xday (except Sa/Su - no flights) for EIN.

The slot pairings (i.e. difference between arrival and departure) for RTM range between 25 mins and 50 mins and are useless as-is for long-haul flights. Even mixing and matching at best would give a 0715 arrival, but departure at 1705 - This would only be Mo-Sa with the best for Su being an arrival at 1615 and departure at 2100. Or this 1615 arrival could be paired with the 2040 (x3) / 2100 (x4) but the arrival in the USA would not be so good. In addition you could combine an evening arrival at 2015 with a 0750 (again except Su) departure. On Sunday the next departure would be at 1705.

Pairings for EIN are both 35 mins so they would have to be split giving 0740 arrival and 1830 departure and 1755 arrival and 0815 departure, these only possible for 5 and 4 weekly flights respectively.

These possibilities for long-haul flights to/from USA are basically crap and give equally crappy schedules at US origin/destination.

I'm sure that Skyteam have looked at splitting these pairings to be used with other Skyteam slots, but they obviously haven't found a solution. KL have operated these flights for years, and obviously do it because of the business they generate.

Also don't forget that any slot transfer has to be feasible - and replacing F50s with widebodys is going to be a challenge - needing the right gates / terminal capacity / etc.
 
Aisak
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:48 am



Quoting ANother (Reply 42):
Also don't forget that any slot transfer has to be feasible - and replacing F50s with widebodys is going to be a challenge - needing the right gates / terminal capacity / etc.

When T5 opens all BA shorthaul from T4 will go there. Only a month later all BA longhaul will go away except LHR-SIN, LHR-SIN-SYD and LHR-BKK-SYD, so terminal capacity doesn't look like a problem

Quoting ANother (Reply 42):
The slot pairings (i.e. difference between arrival and departure) for RTM range between 25 mins and 50 mins and are useless as-is for long-haul flights. Even mixing and matching at best would give a 0715 arrival, but departure at 1705

No need to use exclusively those slot pairs. Slots for new TATL services can be arranged among EIN, RTM and AMS on the KLM hand and CDG on the other (the main topic in this thread). Look how new slots for CDG are spreaded during the day compared to the current CDG timetable and you'll see there are a few gaps to fill.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:48 am



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
Gar Du Nord,

Small point. It is spelled Gare Du Nord

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
With the new High Speed line

It was fast even without the CTRL.

Quoting Farnborough24 (Reply 10):
It's now something like 2 hours 45 mins, if that, from central London to Paris on the train.

It is significantly less than that, as noted above.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):

It will be really hard for NZ to survive when AF also start service to LAX,.

Not particularly.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14):

I beg to differ here. AI and NZ have sizeable thru-traffic flows, and ability to closely fluctuate capacity with demand.

NZ particularly. Further, they operate with a rather dense configuration, which brings costs down further and allows for considerable undercutting.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
Almost all frequencies are A321s starting next year. What sized planes do they use now?

A mix of the entire A320 family.

Quoting Jouy31 (Reply 18):

Well, I live outside Paris and need more time to reach Gare du Nord than Roissy. On the UK side, my meetings are in Hounslow and Uxbridge, so flying is and will continue to be the best option. The decrease of AF flights between LHR and CDG simply means that I will move a greater share of my flights to BA.

I don't see why. AF still offers a significant schedule of flights that meet your needs. Further, you are not likely in the majority with your specific situation.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 19):
All of Singapore's transpac services stop somewhere in Asia picking up passengers.

Not all.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 27):

For the British business traveller the curse is the hour difference on the clocks

That is true, but doesn't change whether you fly or take the train.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 27):
Recognising that even business travellers on the LON-PAR route are likely to be travelling from home to office or office to home, in the end it all comes down to where you live.

Well, Central and East London will favor the train, as will those traveling from Kent.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 27):

Although quite a lot of people live in central Paris the number living in central London is limited.

The latest midyear estimate I could find had Inner London (includes Central London, plus the immediate surrounding areas) at nearly 3 million and growing. The population of Paris' administrative boundaries is about 2.2 million. Which one is more limited now?

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 30):

Certainly on the LAX-LHR route, the competition is going to be fierce. It is already a bargain route during the winter months ($550) in October, November, February and March.

That isn't a bargain, and the route sees significant premium cabin demand. It wouldn't see so much traffic if there wasn't a significant profit potential, and one need only look at the fact that BA alone sends 3 744s a day to understand that.

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 36):

Although the flight will receive feed from delta's hub in LAX.

What hub? At this point, Delta is killing their little gate squatting scheme a little bit every day.

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 36):
Of course the main problem there is that DL are at T5 whilst AF are with KL/NW at T2.

And that was Delta's fault, now wasn't it?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):

Sure they will. End the corporate travel contracts, and drop them to use the slots on potentially more profitable flights.

Chances are, the fares on those routes are significant.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:21 am



Quoting Aisak (Reply 43):
No need to use exclusively those slot pairs. Slots for new TATL services can be arranged among EIN, RTM and AMS on the KLM hand and CDG on the other (the main topic in this thread). Look how new slots for CDG are spreaded during the day compared to the current CDG timetable and you'll see there are a few gaps to fill.

I did say:

Quoting ANother (Reply 42):
I'm sure that Skyteam have looked at splitting these pairings to be used with other Skyteam slots, but they obviously haven't found a solution. KL have operated these flights for years, and obviously do it because of the business they generate.

 
cricket
Posts: 2085
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:36 am

AI DEL-LHR-JFK and BOM-LHR-JFK still continue to be the airlines premier flights. AI has flights stopping at both CDG and FRA and makes money on TATL services. DL offering flights to JFK won't make them drop flights, nor will BA or AA
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
jouy31
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 4:59 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:13 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 44):
I don't see why. AF still offers a significant schedule of flights that meet your needs. Further, you are not likely in the majority with your specific situation.


My choice as a passenger who can use flexible tickets, when faced with a decrease of flights by almost 50%. There are also a number of people besides me who do not live in the city centre, either in London or in Paris. In any case, everyone has a choice for his travel patterns.

[Edited 2007-12-10 06:16:16]
 
ZKOJH
Posts: 1463
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:51 am

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:08 am

wait till BD finally start their flights from LHR to the US in 09 , it will be a very busy market,
Vietnam time..
 
eghansen
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:33 pm

RE: AF CDG To LHR S08 7 Flights Instead Of 12

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:25 am



Quoting Nzrich (Reply 35):
Air NZ will still do very well on this route as it can fill the plane with AKL-LHR-AKL passengers as well .. Air NZ is good on that route for star it brings a quality award winning product .. If anything its AF that needs to worry as neither LAX or LHR are its home markets ..

No doubt. ANZ will always fly into LHR no matter what. And if they don't fly through LAX or HKG, what else is there? SCL? They will stay no matter what.

All I know is that in the past 5 years, I have found some extraordinary fares between LAX and London. One time on Virgin for $375 return in August (I kid you not) and another time on United for $450 return in October. It is a great route earn 11,000 frequent flyer miles for very little outlay.
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