Alitalia744
Topic Author
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Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:17 pm

Interesting Reuters article.

Net, Delta is comfortable that the stand-alone plan is viable with cost reductions - working on all facets except price of oil.

Will continue to look for strategic fits on an M&A front if necessary.

JFK Terminal/Development is the airlines #1 priority. Financers to be lined up and decision announced early 2008.

http://www.reuters.com/article/summi...idUSN0621439420071206?pageNumber=1

[Edited 2007-12-07 08:19:58]
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
SNCNtry32
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:36 pm

Oh boy, I bet DeltaL1011man will be heartbroken...
Long Live Memphis!
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:36 pm

Drop Dead Pardus Capital Management
 
dbo861
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:45 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
JFK Terminal/Development is the airlines #1 priority. Financers to be lined up and decision announced early 2008.

Let me just say, it's about fricken time. Terminal's 2 & 3 at JFK are an embarassment. I have been in every terminal at JFK with the exception of T1 and T7, and Delta's terminal is by far the oldest and most decrepid. I have even heard that there's still asbestos in there which can't be removed while Delta is still operating in the terminal. I'm really curious what kind of magic act they're going to pull shuffling around their current JFK operations while they try to rebuild the terminals.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:52 pm



Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 3):
I'm really curious what kind of magic act they're going to pull shuffling around their current JFK operations while they try to rebuild the terminals.

Yeah, it is definitely going to be interesting to watch.

AA had a hassle and a half doing basically exactly what DL is trying to do - rebuild their entire terminal on top of their old terminal, while their old terminal was still being used every day. And, they were dealing with a larger terminal that wasn't nearly as capacity-constrained, chronically overcrowded or geographically confined as the T2/T3 complex - wedged snuggly in between T1 and T4.

AA's old T8/T9 complex was just a disgusting piece of sh*t, but DL's T2/T3 is an incredibly constrained disgusting piece of sh*t.
 
dbo861
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:59 pm



Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
Yeah, it is definitely going to be interesting to watch.

One rumor I've heard is that Delta is going to buy jetBlue just to use their terminal for the rebuilding process. They would buy jetBlue through Comair so the B6 pilots wouldn't have to be merged into Delta's seniority list. Like I said, this is just one of MANY rumors floating around at Comair.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:03 pm

And completely impossible. Delta wouldn't waste their money buying jetBlue just to increase a terminal.

Good thing DL is acting on the JFK terminal though. T2/3 isn't quite as bad as AA's old T8 before they retired it, but it's close.

-A
What now?
 
masseybrown
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 5):
One rumor I've heard is that Delta is going to buy jetBlue just to use their terminal for the rebuilding process.

At today's prices, it would probably be cheaper to buy B6 than to build a new terminal.

Edit: Disclosure: I have a financial interest in somebody's buying B6.  Wink

[Edited 2007-12-07 09:08:31]
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:12 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
Drop Dead Pardus Capital Management

They have the most to gain from a DL+UA deal. Tilton and UA might like the idea since they would gain ATL and JFK, two large centers where they are very weak as well well as Trans-Atlantic flights to Europe. On the other hand Anderson, Bastian and DL know that NW would be the better deal, and they are merely retrenching themselves to the idea that they can stay independent and hold out until the right opportunity for all can reach fruition financially, logistically as well as with the best business sense rather than making a quick buck as the hedge funds want and invest for.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:23 pm



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 7):
At today's prices, it would probably be cheaper to buy B6 than to build a new terminal.

True, and you get a few planes and pax in the same deal as well  Wink . That said, I still can't see that happening.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 3):
I'm really curious what kind of magic act they're going to pull shuffling around their current JFK operations while they try to rebuild the terminals.

There's still plenty of space in front of T-4 that is just used for hardstands currently  Wink .
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:38 pm



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 7):
At today's prices, it would probably be cheaper to buy B6 than to build a new terminal.

Exactly - if the new DL terminal is going to cost, say, $1.5B it's cheaper to buy B6 - you get a fleet of planes, employees, customers and a terminal. DL's has more cash at hand than B6s market cap (currently at $1.27B)

Market caps today have been fluctuating..As of 12:30EST:

WN: $10.56B
DL: $5.12B
UA: $4.94B
AA: $4.91B
NW: $4.29B
CO: $2.79B
US: $1.69B
B6: $1.27B
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:55 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
DL: $5.12B



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
US: $1.69B

Hey, maybe DL could buy US  flamed  duck .
 
MrLurker
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:02 pm

Unfortunately acquiring B6 doesn't seem to be in the works:

Are we merging with jet blue. if not why is our plane painted the same color as jet blue?
Ed Bastian (Nov 13, 2007 1:53:33 PM)
We are not merging with JetBlue. That would cost us $6 billion. I can find many better uses for our money
than that.

This is about as definitive an answer that I can provide to the JetBlue question...although I do not know how a $6 billion price tag was determined given the much smaller market cap.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:04 pm

Delta is hardly "alone". Skyteam is perhaps the strongest domestic US alliance and internationally speaking DL has some great global coverage. No need for them to merge with anyone.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
ScottB
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:23 pm



Quoting MrLurker (Reply 12):
although I do not know how a $6 billion price tag was determined given the much smaller market cap.

The $6 billion figure probably comes from the premium Delta or any buyer would have to pay over the market cap, as well as the $3 billion in JetBlue's debt that would be assumed by the purchaser. My guess is that the purchase price might well be in the neighborhood of $2 billion if it were to happen today, so it's more like a $5 billion deal when the debt gets included.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 5):
They would buy jetBlue through Comair so the B6 pilots wouldn't have to be merged into Delta's seniority list.

I don't think the Delta pilots would go along with this. I suspect they'd want to just staple the non-union JBLU pilots (or integrate by seniority which would for all practical purposes be almost equivalent). Purchasing JBLU through Comair sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of Comair pilots hoping to fly something bigger than the CR9.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:49 pm

From the Reuters article:

Quote:
But even as Delta considers linking up with another U.S. airline, it is pushing ahead to beef up its operations. The top priority is overhauling its aging terminal at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.

"We're not going to be slowing down any of our Delta decisions due to consolidation," said Bastian. Overhauling the JFK terminal is "our No. 1 priority as a company ... it is key to our strategy as we grow."

Note overhaul is used, is this to mean no new terminal? Only an "overhaul", maybe a new concourse but no mega project ala AA or B6 at JFK.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:03 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Note overhaul is used, is this to mean no new terminal? Only an "overhaul", maybe a new concourse but no mega project ala AA or B6 at JFK.

Possibly - but the minimal projected cost for each of the three options are all above $1B. So it will be some "overhaul" if they stick with a redone T2/3...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:07 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
Possibly - but the minimal projected cost for each of the three options are all above $1B. So it will be some "overhaul" if they stick with a redone T2/3...

AA spent well above $1 Billion and they have a half completed structure that looks awkward. If I were to speculate I would say DL has some sort of hybrid Terminal project in mind, renovate most of the existing facilities but add a new modern 15 gate International concourse someplace. Perhaps going back to the 2000 plan for the West pier of T-4.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:21 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
If I were to speculate I would say DL has some sort of hybrid Terminal project in mind, renovate most of the existing facilities but add a new modern 15 gate International concourse someplace. Perhaps going back to the 2000 plan for the West pier of T-4.

The great thing about speculation is sometimes you're right. And of course, sometimes you're wrong.

The option chosen will be what is best for Delta (from a facility and balance sheet perspective) as well as the customer. Now realistically I don't think we can expect Delta to build a giant new terminal with 50 gates but the current options seem good (or better than what we have now).

That being said, I have never had a problem with DL's current JFK facility, it's outdated but seems like the pigeon's are gone  Wink It is a lot easier to deal with now that T2 is dedicated to Medallions, FC and BizE only...I've never waited more than 10 mins since that changeover happened.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:30 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 2):
Drop Dead Pardus Capital Management

Not a smart move to a major stockholder. The price DL paid for staying free of Parker was more say and control by the speculators. DL cut the deal with the speculators, we will see how long it takes for them to want their soul.
 
Evan767
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:36 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
I have never had a problem with DL's current JFK facility, it's outdated but seems like the pigeon's are gone

 checkmark 

JFK's T2/T3 isn't nearly as bad as everyone says it to be. JFK as a whole sucks.. Delays and congestion... Ugh. T2 is perfectly adequate. My only complaint is that T3 seems a bit run down, but still, it's adequate. That being said, the RJ operations are a clusterfu**. I hope this "overhaul" will greatly improve RJ operations.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:53 pm

Does B6 actually OWN their terminal at JF Kor just lease it from the PA?
 
okie73
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:29 pm



Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 5):
They would buy jetBlue through Comair so the B6 pilots wouldn't have to be merged into Delta's seniority list.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
I don't think the Delta pilots would go along with this. I suspect they'd want to just staple the non-union JBLU pilots (or integrate by seniority which would for all practical purposes be almost equivalent). Purchasing JBLU through Comair sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of Comair pilots hoping to fly something bigger than the CR9.

Having Comair buy Jetblue would not change a thing, in fact could create more problems. If Comair bought Jetblue, Comair would then operate aircraft larger than 76 seats. At that point, the Delta pilots contract would require all of Comair.....the RJs included, to be merged into the mainline.
 
planemaker
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:15 pm



Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
Net, Delta is comfortable that the stand-alone plan is viable with cost reductions - working on all facets except price of oil.

Will continue to look for strategic fits on an M&A front if necessary.

Alone for now.... but when any other 2 majors eventually merge you can bet that DL will be looking for a merger partner fairly quickly. It seems that every major is getting into "meger" condition while not actively looking for a merger (except Tilton and Parker).
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
srbmod
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:51 pm



Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 3):

Let me just say, it's about fricken time.

You're not kidding. I remember when they originally announced the JFK improvements in 2000.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 22):

Having Comair buy Jetblue would not change a thing, in fact could create more problems. If Comair bought Jetblue, Comair would then operate aircraft larger than 76 seats. At that point, the Delta pilots contract would require all of Comair.....the RJs included, to be merged into the mainline.

If this rumor were to come to fruition (Considering that rumors make the airline industry go round, highly unlikely IMHO.), the A-320s (and JetBlue for that matter) would probably be gone in a New York Minute. If the A-320s were to stay, they'd go into the DL fleet. The E-190s could be reconfigured into a 70 pax seat set up (ala the CRJ-900s) and flown by OH or flown by DL in a layout similar to AC or US.
 
okie73
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:52 pm



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 24):
The E-190s could be reconfigured into a 70 pax seat set up (ala the CRJ-900s) and flown by OH or flown by DL in a layout similar to AC or US.

ah, the Delta pilots have anticipated something like this. Their contract sets out limits on number of seats and max gross weight. The 190 would have to be flown by the Delta pilots.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:59 pm



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 1):
Oh boy, I bet DeltaL1011man will be heartbroken...

rolmao.........hell no im happy don't have to worry about Delta leavin ATL.......still think they will buy NW though
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
surfdog75
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:10 pm



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 19):
Not a smart move to a major stockholder. The price DL paid for staying free of Parker was more say and control by the speculators. DL cut the deal with the speculators, we will see how long it takes for them to want their soul.

Thing is they aren't really that big a shareholder at roughly 2%. They are a third rate fairly new hedge fund out only for themselves. They will have little impact over anything DL does unless they are able to convince the real big institutional holders that they have a plan that is in everyone's best interest and not just one that will make a few wild west speculators even richer.
 
hiflyer
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:20 am

Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority...same as UA and DL....any attempt to move to a new designated carrier would bring on legions of lawyers from other carriers yelling loudly.

just as a fyi....
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:30 am

Unless Comair is willing to fly A320s and Embraers with less than 86 or 76 seats (per the DL Pilot Contract), there's no shot of them being flown under the Comair certificate.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
I don't think the Delta pilots would go along with this. I suspect they'd want to just staple the non-union JBLU pilots (or integrate by seniority which would for all practical purposes be almost equivalent). Purchasing JBLU through Comair sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of Comair pilots hoping to fly something bigger than the CR9.

The integration of B6 pilots to another seniority list would be arranged per the merger/acq integration clause in their con.... Err, wait a second they don't have a contract. So in that case, all that would be needed is a staple gun.
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:31 am

Everyone is going Crazy in here about buyouts. If and I mean (IF) DL does buy B6, they could move some of the flights and aircraft to CVG. Thus freeing up gate space at JFK. Some routes on B6 would be dropped because DL is already flying them. If done right, this could reduce delays at JFK and allow DL to rebuild T2 and T3 by shifting some DL flights to the B6 terminal. And DL would get a completely new terminal that B6 has or is currently building/redoing.

Just my thought on things.
Chuck
 
Alitalia744
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:59 am



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 28):
Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority...same as UA and DL....any attempt to move to a new designated carrier would bring on legions of lawyers from other carriers yelling loudly.

just as a fyi....

Not necessarily the case. Look @ the bi-laterals.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Mir
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:35 am



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
That being said, I have never had a problem with DL's current JFK facility

Either you're flying BusinessElite all the time or you're one lucky guy - the terminals (both 2 and 3) are worse than any other I've seen in the US if you're in economy - overcrowded and very lacking in amenities.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
flyingcat
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:57 am



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 28):
Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority...same as UA and DL....any attempt to move to a new designated carrier would bring on legions of lawyers from other carriers yelling loudly.

Alitalia744 is right the authorities are not lost in the case of a merger.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:10 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
Either you're flying BusinessElite all the time or you're one lucky guy - the terminals (both 2 and 3) are worse than any other I've seen in the US if you're in economy - overcrowded and very lacking in amenities.

I'm a lucky guy  Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Lono
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:49 am



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 28):
Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 30):
(IF) DL does buy B6



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 33):
Alitalia744 is right the authorities are not lost in the case of a merger.

The NW authorities would make or break any thoughts on this partnersip.... and I do not see B6 happening with DL... I remember when DL bought the PA interests that there was some legal issues... as would be the case here also... But as far as future mergers is concerned the DL/NW merger makes the most sense... the DL/UA merger would be simular to the recent merger problems US is still having... Any merger with DL would have issues due to DL's very different work culture they enjoy...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
breaker1011
Posts: 56
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:54 am

Let's do this. DL, UA, NW, B6, Kalitta Cargo and Air Tahiti Nui merge, dump all the RJ's, and finally give LAX-Mexico the capacity everyone feels it deserves with this beauty...

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00009318
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:08 am



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 34):
I'm a lucky guy

or it could be that your like Ed Bastion(did i spell that right?) because you know everything

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 28):
Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority...same as UA and DL....any attempt to move to a new designated carrier would bring on legions of lawyers from other carriers yelling loudly.

not true just ask UA about there NRT rights(which they got from PA)
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
SNCNtry32
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:22 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:28 am



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 26):
.still think they will buy NW though

Oh I know you do. Thats ok, Ill leave you be with your 3809438049 different livery's DL has going on in ATL and ill stick to our simple two up here in MSP.
Long Live Memphis!
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:26 am

A horribly interesting topic today...I signed on here looking for something specifically regarding UA and DL. Once again DL is posturing...we want to be Delta. All the power to them.

An interesting note...Pardus was but one of two funds that issued statements regarding DL/UA. Together the two funds represent more than 10% of each airline............

Word on the ramp/jumpseat/etc is that this is no longer a merger...this is a BUYOUT. Given the fact that our union reps have been summoned and are currently negotiation/discussing, I have a feeling something is a done deal...I have been told a bit about our contract, but M&A activity occurs behind closed doors. The last people to know about it are the people that talk about it...and a lot of people are talking.

The question is, at this point, who is buying who. DL states they will not join into a deal unless they are the surviving NAME...Who has the bigger Johnson in this fight?

I would task our accountant enthusiasts to review the balance sheets and determine who is more likely to buy out the other...With no fact-based analysis, here are my talking points:

1) United has a sizeable fleet of 744's. Aging, but big capital.

2) United has a large fleet of 777's, enough so that there are 3 configurations.

3) Delta has a few 777's, but few enough that maintenenace and upgrades change the schedule often.

4) United has a large fleet of 767's...again in two configurations.

5) Delta has a sizeable fleet of 767's.

6) United has a large fleet of 757's, all of which will soon be fitted with winglets, and a sizeable number that have been outfitted with PS service (TATL???)

7) DL has a large fleet of 757's....

8) United has a large fleet of A319/320 aircraft, some in "shuttle/TED" configuration.

9) United has a small fleet of 737's.

10) Delta has a small fleet of 737's. (NG's though)

11) Delta has a huge fleet of MD-XX aircraft.

12) United has $4.4 B in the bank.

13) Delta has $2.3 B in the bank.

If it is a BUYOUT, who buys whom? My bet is on UA buying DL, maintaining the UA name, and retaining DL management...if Bethune does not step in...which I believe he will.

Am I wrong? Surely, I must be...flame away. I love speculation, but the lack of and quick announcement of this information leads me to believe this deal is inked...FEDS, here it is; whatcha gonna do?
 
planemaker
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:42 am



Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 39):
If it is a BUYOUT, who buys whom? My bet is on UA buying DL, maintaining the UA name, and retaining DL management...if Bethune does not step in...which I believe he will.

Nice speculation!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4464
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:51 pm



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 28):
Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority...same as UA and DL....any attempt to move to a new designated carrier would bring on legions of lawyers from other carriers yelling loudly.

just as a fyi....

That is an urban legend brought to life on this board with no factual basis whatsoever. NWA's Pacific authority is theirs to do as they choose, sell it, give it away, trade it, merge it or whatever.
 
767-332ER
Posts: 1974
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RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:03 pm

Funny how TCFC424 went through the carefully chosen, biased words to describe Delta's and United fleet. (Delta has "sizeable" and United has "large."

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 39):
1) United has a sizeable fleet of 744's. Aging, but big capital.

2) United has a large fleet of 777's, enough so that there are 3 configurations.

3) Delta has a few 777's, but few enough that maintenenace and upgrades change the schedule often.

4) United has a large fleet of 767's...again in two configurations.

5) Delta has a sizeable fleet of 767's.

6) United has a large fleet of 757's, all of which will soon be fitted with winglets, and a sizeable number that have been outfitted with PS service (TATL???)

7) DL has a large fleet of 757's....

8) United has a large fleet of A319/320 aircraft, some in "shuttle/TED" configuration.

9) United has a small fleet of 737's.

10) Delta has a small fleet of 737's. (NG's though)

11) Delta has a huge fleet of MD-XX aircraft.

12) United has $4.4 B in the bank.

13) Delta has $2.3 B in the bank.


1) United has a sizeable fleet of 744's. Aging, but big capital.

2) United has a large fleet of 777's, enough so that there are 3 configurations.

(And around 20 of these are 777-200A markets which are some of the oldest in the industry and only useful for TransAtlantic ops from the East coast).

3) Delta has a few 777's, but few enough that maintenenace and upgrades change the schedule often.

(Plus 8 777-200LR's coming on board).

4) United has a large fleet of 767's...again in two configurations.

(Delta's 767-300ER fleet alone is almost twice as large as United's entire 767 fleet).

5) Delta has a sizeable fleet of 767's.

(Delta's fleet is hardly "sizeable" as it is the world's largest and much larger than United.)

6) United has a large fleet of 757's, all of which will soon be fitted with winglets, and a sizeable number that have been outfitted with PS service (TATL???)

7) DL has a large fleet of 757's....

(Again, the world's largest)

8) United has a large fleet of A319/320 aircraft, some in "shuttle/TED" configuration.

(Of which 29 A320's were delivered 1996 or older).

9) United has a small fleet of 737's.

(90 aircraft is "small in your mind?" And the fleet is comprised of a large number of 737-500, and aircraft whose CASM is something that leaves to be desired)

10) Delta has a small fleet of 737's. (NG's though)

(Hardly would call 71 aircraft " a small fleet.")

11) Delta has a huge fleet of MD-XX aircraft.

(Of which 95% of them are newer than United's 737 fleet)

12) United has $4.4 B in the bank.

13) Delta has $2.3 B in the bank.

[Edited 2007-12-08 06:05:02]

[Edited 2007-12-08 06:06:08]
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:52 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 37):
not true just ask UA about there NRT rights(which they got from PA)

First off on a selloff of assets not a merger. Same with PA LHR authority. Different and very little/nil backlash from other carriers at the time. AMR would have had a hard time complaining, for instance, as they bought their LHR from TWA and gave up/failed on their original Pacific routes.

On a merger with a change of certificate there would be a wholesale pleading by every US carrier on dividing up the existing Pacific structure as being too monopolistic for a 'new' entrant to take as a whole. There has been precedent.

This issue has quietly dogged the CO/UA talk as Air Mike would have to go in order to protect the far more lucrative NoPac remainder. Same with any CO/NW deal. Carriers without a foothold on the current lucrative Pacific basin would be arguing extensively for a breakup on any carrier change in the certificate. Review the pleadings over the last few Pacific route awards to get a sense of what would be coming.

FYI aside from LHR...now opening up in 2008....there really isn't any real locked routes anywhere near as extensive as the NW and UA pacific certificates.....most have gone to open sky.....or new entrants have been easily allowed such as DL's and CO's growth in Latin America and Europe as well as Africa. Being the last large chunk of held routes would be enough for savy legal teams to tie up any certificate name change reducing any immediate potential gain.....indefinitely tying up the proceedings and greatly reducing the overall value of the combined carrier.

Why do you think Pardus/Bethune went UA/DL instead of the more widely expected (particularly in here...grin) UA/CO?
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:26 pm



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 43):
Why do you think Pardus/Bethune went UA/DL instead of the more widely expected (particularly in here...grin) UA/CO?

Doesn't NW have to give approval for any merger CO considers?
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:53 pm



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 28):
Re DL buying NW....NW would have to be the surviving carrier to avoid major issues with NW's Pacific authority...same as UA and DL....any attempt to move to a new designated carrier would bring on legions of lawyers from other carriers yelling loudly.

it is an urban legend attempting to make NW people feel more important to say that NW's assets are uniquely theirs. There is no basis in fact or law to support the idea that NW's assets can't be transferred just like happens w/ any other airline.

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 39):

If it is a BUYOUT, who buys whom? My bet is on UA buying DL, maintaining the UA name, and retaining DL management...if Bethune does not step in...which I believe he will.

But UA is the one that wants to sell and DL is the one that wants to buy. And analysts across the board recognize DL as the company that did a better job in BK and that has a better mgmt team today. Not sure how you make UA the surviving company out of that.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 44):
Doesn't NW have to give approval for any merger CO considers?

You have to consider game theory. If DL buys NW, it essentially frees UA and CO to do a deal on their own. Why would you (DL) allow a competitor (CO) to buy the company that you really both need (UA), allowing your combined competitor (UA/CO) to overshadow you in every dimension. NW would have no current Asian flights overflying Japan other than what DL already has, NW provides no meaningful access to NRT, and NW has no increased presence on the west coast. Merging DL and NW gives you a partial solution while giving your competitor a full solution to their network needs.

If DL is the first mover and if they choose to go for another network carrier, it will be UA but they will structure the deal such that they can spin off whatever assets they don't need (DEN and IAD are not strategically necessary).

Regardless, the first quarter of 08 will likely see this all play out.
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:56 pm



Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 42):
Funny how TCFC424 went through the carefully chosen, biased words to describe Delta's and United fleet. (Delta has "sizeable" and United has "large."



Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 39):
I would task our accountant enthusiasts to review the balance sheets and determine who is more likely to buy out the other...With no fact-based analysis, here are my talking points:

Thank you 767-332 for the breakdowns. You are right, I was biased, but I can't say that I am really sorry. I did preface it by saying it wasn't an in-depth analysis, just an overview. I also was not aware of just how large DL's 767 and 757 fleets were.
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:59 pm



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
it is an urban legend attempting to make NW people feel more important to say that NW's assets are uniquely theirs. There is no basis in fact or law to support the idea that NW's assets can't be transferred just like happens w/ any other airline.

It's not an urban legend. Certain assets aren't transferable, or at least aren't transferable without an enormous amount of hassle and cost.

Northwest's 5th freedom traffic rights ex-Japan would fall into this category: while I doubt it would be impossible to transfer them to a new company, it wouldn't be easy. It would be a difficult legal and regulatory hurdle to overcome. It certainly can be done - United did it when they bought the same rights from Pan Am in 1985 - but it would not be easy.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
Not sure how you make UA the surviving company out of that.

It's pretty simple. United is the surviving legal entity, but Delta's management team (and brand, maybe, although I think that's a definite question mark) are retained.

It happened with the AT&T-SBC merger: SBC was the surviving company, but it assumed the AT&T name. Same thing with America West-USAirways: America West was the surviving company, but the USAirways brand was retained. It happens all the time when one company is larger, more valuable and/or better managed, while another has a more global name recognition or more brand equity, or when there are special legal or regulatory entanglements that make it more efficient to retain one legal entity's existence over another.
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:09 pm

Regarding names, how about when Valujet bought AirTran and retained the latter name...of course that was for reason.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Delta Comfortable Alone...

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:15 pm



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
You have to consider game theory. If DL buys NW, it essentially frees UA and CO to do a deal on their own. Why would you (DL) allow a competitor (CO) to buy the company that you really both need (UA), allowing your combined competitor (UA/CO) to overshadow you in every dimension. NW would have no current Asian flights overflying Japan other than what DL already has, NW provides no meaningful access to NRT, and NW has no increased presence on the west coast. Merging DL and NW gives you a partial solution while giving your competitor a full solution to their network needs.

I don't follow you logic here at all. NWA could start overflying Japan tomorrow if they choose to as they already have the rights, which I believe they will use when the 787 arrives. NWA regularly out carries UA to ASIA across the pacific with their current route system. DL is a non contender currently in the pacific.