Orion737
Topic Author
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New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:02 pm

I miss those 3 holers. Surely if the 340 needs 4 then they could do a version with more powerful engines that only requires three. It would be a departure for Airbus and I know in a few years all we will have is 787s and A350s, please, a 3 engined version of a four engined offering economy.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:24 pm

The literally is no point anymore...

3 engines requires special engineering, are harder to inspect and have weight/drag issues.

The MD-11 required a very expensive to manufacture "banjo" casting for the tail engine which also added greatly to the weight of the aircraft, an the L1011's s-duct, though simple does cause lower efficiency than a wing mounted engine, makes the aft fuselage less aerodynamic, etc etc...

Also with engines now at 115,000lbs thrust, there isn't a power need for 3 engines anymore, the 777-300ER is far larger than any tri-jet MD even conceived and does it on 2 engines.

the A340 doesn't NEED 4, it has 4 for what were at the time (late 1980s) economic and operational reasons. There are some reasons a 4 engine jet might be used today (size ala 380 being the biggest, but also things like engine out performance), but there just isn't a reason for 3 anymore with the extra engineering headaches and accessibility issues..
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
It would be a departure for Airbus

I remember reading a paper 15 years ago about the trijet, and Airbus clearly thought about it as the worst solution. They then said: "You either have to go for a twin or a quad."

And with todays engines, its more like: You either have to go for a twin or... a twin. Except for VLA such as the A380.

[Edited 2007-12-07 14:33:52]
 
HOOB747
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:39 pm

The tri-jets are probably a relic of the past, but one can't deny their beauty or distinctiveness. Enjoy them while you can. My first flight as a grown up (14 year old) was on a TWA L-1011 St. Louis to Los Angeles. Awesome.
I love dem planes....
 
OHLHD
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:40 pm

Unfortunaetly we won´t see any tri-holers anymore I believe. They have not proven to be economical better then 4 engines. I wish we could see another DC-10!  

I am with you Orion737!  Smile

[Edited 2007-12-07 14:41:08]
 
OceansWorld
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:47 pm



Quoting HOOB747 (Reply 3):
but one can't deny their beauty or distinctiveness.

Indeed. I have to admit that I'm still pretty much "in love" with one of them... If that is possible  smirk 

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 4):
I wish we could see another DC-10!

That would be great.  yes 
 
Orion737
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:47 pm

Thats nice to know your with me, I get lonely you know. least you have the MD11 to feast on Iin Finland, for now at least. I wish they would do an A340 with three engines, would be a saving for airlines?
 
gkirk
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:54 pm



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
I wish they would do an A340 with three engines, would be a saving for airlines?

An A340 with 3 engines would climb slower than a goose!
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
OHLHD
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:56 pm



Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 5):
That would be great.

Definitely! I was so stupid in 2005 that I did not go for a 3 day AMS-MEM-AMS trip on the DC-10. One of the very few things I regret in life so far.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
Thats nice to know your with me, I get lonely you know. least you have the MD11 to feast on Iin Finland, for now at least.

Yes but also not so long anymore. I will go for one next year! It is a must.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
I wish they would do an A340 with three engines, would be a saving for airlines?

BA is known for using only 3 of their 4 B747 engines  duck 

BTW:

OHLHD = DC-10  Smile


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Orion737
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:06 pm

You are a man of good taste. Im hoping Finnair might keep the MD11 for charter IT flights when they are phased out from scheduled services, they would be more appropriate than the 757 for the longer holiday flights.
 
OHLHD
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:09 pm



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):

They will be phased out. Some are sold to Aeroflot already. The last one is to leave in 2009.They will be converted to freighters. The 757 will stay. Believe me, drunk finns do not care about their seat pitch. Big grin

It is about time to leave office now. A syrian 747SP is waiting for me. This time I won´t regret it.  Smile
 
OceansWorld
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:10 pm



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 8):
BA is known for using only 3 of their 4 B747 engines

Yes, but they lack the true beauty and distinctiveness of a DC-10 or MD-11.  Big grin
 
OHLHD
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:13 pm



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):



Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):

Since both of you are trihole lovers like I am: Welcome to my RU-List.  Smile
 
MEA-707
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:16 pm



Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
The MD-11 required a very expensive to manufacture "banjo" casting for the tail engine which also added greatly to the weight of the aircraft, an the L1011's s-duct, though simple does cause lower efficiency than a wing mounted engine, makes the aft fuselage less aerodynamic, etc etc...

The third engine doesn't necessarily have to be in the tail.
You can imagine three under wing engines, with one engine placed further out on one wing against two closer to the fuselage on the other wing for balance purposes. Of course this would look quite gawky, but you can pure theoretically imagine a 3 engined A-380 or 748 where the third engine is kept for ETOPS issues and on the other hand if there will still be no engines strong enough yet to convert a VLA to a twin.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
HOOB747
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:29 pm



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 8):



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 8):
BA is known for using only 3 of their 4 B747 engines

BTW:

OHLHD = DC-10

Haaaaa!!! And shocking tower controllers everywhere! BA flight 268 LAX-LHR; Feb. 20, 2005. Read if you can article in the Wall Street Journal, Sept. 23-24, 2006.
I love dem planes....
 
sparkingwave
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:41 pm

You might see a 3-holer on a future BWB (Blended Wing Body) aircraft. Some concept designs have displayed 3 engines in pods attached above the aircraft/wing body.

[Edited 2007-12-07 15:44:22]
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:48 pm

Certainly the best looking modern tri-jet.


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Mir
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
Certainly the best looking modern tri-jet.

Not quite.

THIS is the best-looking modern trijet:


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-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
nosedive
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:49 am

heh, how many times has this come up? plz lock thread
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:30 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
Not quite.

THIS is the best-looking modern trijet:

They are the same.  Confused
I love ASO!
 
Mir
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:03 am



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 19):
They are the same.

One has winglets.  Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
futurecaptain
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:49 am



Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
Surely if the 340 needs 4 then they could do a version with more powerful engines that only requires three.

For engine out performance...
The A340-2/3 would need 3 engines producing 51,000 lbs of thrust.
The A340-5/6 would need 3 engines producing 90,000 lbs of thrust.

So, with the newer A340's to make them into three holers you're talking GE90's. That would be a HUGE engine to mount and balance.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):
An A340 with 3 engines would climb slower than a goose!

Negative. A 3 engine plane will have more installed thrust due to engine out requirements. If all goes well a three hole A340 would climb better than the current models.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
ouboy79
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:18 am

I think the next trijet when it comes to pax planes would probably be a blended body model. Since the engines would like be mounted above the flight surfaces.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:26 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
One has winglets.

 banghead  Didn't see that. You're right, the second one is better.
I love ASO!
 
malaysia
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:30 am

The L-1011 was superior to all and built beyond its time, I always dreamed of a L-1011 with new RB211 engines and glass cockpit... My favorite jet of all time, miss those days on the TWA and Eastern Tristars when I was a child.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
JakeOrion
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:45 am

Might see them again sooner than you think:

Big version: Width: 795 Height: 361 File size: 21kb


We shall see...

Bah! SparkingWave beat me to it.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
miamix707
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:48 am

I still can't get excited about the 787 or the A350 very much

Just more twins with the same 'ol configuration

Same with the new large jets, what's up with the huge engines in the 777s and A345/6? If the A340 had hairdryers those are washing machines, they don't look right.

The older aircraft looked better to me. I even prefer the older Airbuses like the A343 and original A300B2
 
OceansWorld
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:04 am



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 12):
Since both of you are trihole lovers like I am: Welcome to my RU-List.

Well, thank you.

Cheers.
 
PH-TVH
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:15 am



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 13):
The third engine doesn't necessarily have to be in the tail.
You can imagine three under wing engines, with one engine placed further out on one wing against two closer to the fuselage on the other wing for balance purposes. Of course this would look quite gawky, but you can pure theoretically imagine a 3 engined A-380 or 748 where the third engine is kept for ETOPS issues and on the other hand if there will still be no engines strong enough yet to convert a VLA to a twin.

That sounds like something only Burt Rutan would come up with....
But like you said: theorerically it can be done. Would be nice to see something thats in anyway different than the planes that are build nowdays.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:17 pm



Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
please, a 3 engined version of a four engined offering economy.

Ok, ok, stop crying already, here:


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Don't thank me, anything I can do to help....

 Big grin
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
nema
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:49 pm

Covered in many topics here already, take a look at the posts in my thread a while back.
A Tri Jet The Size Of The A380? (by NEMA Aug 26 2007 in Tech Ops)
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
MAC26000
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:56 pm

God i miss them too. My first flight was 727 from LGA to DCA. Nothing better then watching the 727 on a hot humid day at DCA trying to take off on its short runway. My one flight to LAX on a L-1011 was something I shall never forget.

But I think they are yesterdays technology.
 
Orion737
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:58 pm

how come 4 engines arent yesterdays technology but trijets are??
 
UAL747
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:05 pm

Maybe Boeing will pick up on my personal design: INTRODUCING THE 797!



UAL  Wink
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
levg79
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:20 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 13):
The third engine doesn't necessarily have to be in the tail.
You can imagine three under wing engines, with one engine placed further out on one wing against two closer to the fuselage on the other wing for balance purposes.

This would look to something similar to this:

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Photo © Anthony Jackson


With a tri-jet, it would not be the prettiest sight in the world. I'd rather see tri-jets look like this:

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Photo © Jaakko Ypyä



Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
Rj111
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:54 pm



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 32):
how come 4 engines arent yesterdays technology but trijets are??

Because of the impractical design as mentioned. Balance, maintenance and specialist tail design being the problems.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 21):
So, with the newer A340's to make them into three holers you're talking GE90's. That would be a HUGE engine to mount and balance.

A Trent 895 would be adequate. The MD-11 was originall inteded to have Trent 600s remember. Thought slightly smaller and around 25% ligher. So probably feasable.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 13):
The third engine doesn't necessarily have to be in the tail.
You can imagine three under wing engines, with one engine placed further out on one wing against two closer to the fuselage on the other wing for balance purposes. Of course this would look quite gawky, but you can pure theoretically imagine a 3 engined A-380 or 748 where the third engine is kept for ETOPS issues and on the other hand if there will still be no engines strong enough yet to convert a VLA to a twin.

Interesting idea, but in practicality would never happen.
 
access-air
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:30 pm



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 26):
I still can't get excited about the 787 or the A350 very much

Just more twins with the same 'ol configuration

Yeah, I have to agree, My favourite of the three widebody Tri-Jets was the L-1011 but for soem reason I flew on more DC10s....go figure.... As for the 727....Both models are great but I like the 100 series better.....That was a rocket and I am fortunate that I was able to fly on as many as I have. I am also glad that I was able to get on the MD-11 too..
I was also fortunate that on Easter Sunday 1991, my flight from DTW-ORD was on N101AA....the very FIRST DC10... Smile
I booked the fligth back on the AA DC10 that day in hopes that I would get the plane...WhooHoo!!!

I am too bored with all the mind numbing same looking Twin jets....As for the school of mind that says that producing a tail jet like the DC9 configuration, thats as weak as water. Just look at the CRJ 100/200/700/900s and the EMB-135/140/145s.....I guess its not as important to have jet aircraft that sit closer to the ground that are perhaps easier to access baggage wise for not as well equipped airports. Something aircraft with the fatter engines doesnt allow.
As for the Airbuses, I only like the origina A300 and A310....everything else is blaaaah....
Im getting also, tired of the 737 series.....Its funny that the 737-900 is akin in length to the smaller 707-100 or the 720... Smile I really think that Boeing needed not to discontinue producing the B717.....If it costs right around the same money to run a 717 as compared to a CRJ or ERJ I think Id rather fly on a B717......They could have also shrunk the 717 to a DC9-10 series size and stuck some RR Tays on the plane...They could have also incorporated the leading edge slats like they did on the DC9-20s and viola, a FULLSIZE short to Medium size aircraft that would be very economical on short hauls and carry much more than a measly 50 passengers.

Yeah, Tri-jets are unfrotunately a thing of the past.....in facft that I think other than a few A380s or 744s or A340s, I thiknk you will see most if not all International Airlines replce their four holers with twins and the 4 holers relegated to Carrying cargo.....Just an un-scientific prediction.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
AirEMS
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:42 pm

Here is my vote for the best looking Tri-jet today!!


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Ha!

-Carl
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
Aircellist
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:25 pm

Yesterday, in another thread, about A & B's sales for the year,
Carson - Airbus To Beat Boeing In 2007 (by Scbriml Dec 6 2007 in Civil Aviation)

I wrote this:

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 20):
Incredible year indeed!

My only regret: no three-holer in that wonderful total...  

Funny to find this thread today!...

Maybe we should form a club?  Wink

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
THIS is the best-looking modern trijet:

I should ask Santa for one...

I flew in AF's and IB's 727s, in AC's, TS' and HB's (Royal) L-1011, and have been lucky enought to catch an AOM's (don't know the code for that airline) DC-10 that was replacing an IT's A300 on ORY-PUF once... I really hope to be able to take one of KL's MD-11 before they stop serving YUL...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
ebj1248650
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:38 pm



Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 15):
You might see a 3-holer on a future BWB (Blended Wing Body) aircraft. Some concept designs have displayed 3 engines in pods attached above the aircraft/wing body.

While that would be a three holer by definition, I don't believe it'd be in the same league as the TriStar, DC-10 or MD-11. Thanks for bringing it up though.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
ebj1248650
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:42 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 33):
Maybe Boeing will pick up on my personal design: INTRODUCING THE 797!



UAL

A combining of the best features of the 747 and MD-11.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
UAL747
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:46 pm

Yup, 3 GE-90-115B's, a HUGE upward swept wings. 744 style winglets, a blade shaped tail cone/APU ala 777, and of course, double decked!

But if that's too big for you, I have a 2 seater little screamer dubbed, the Green 1:



UAL  Smile
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
shane
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:04 pm

I was beyond disappointed when I was rebooked from a MD11 GRU-LAX as Varig crumbled under my nose during my trip to Brazil. They sent me to JFK on the shabbiest aircraft I've ever experienced: that 772 that sat around JFK for all those months. Maybe it was broken up later?
 
UAL747
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:30 pm



Quoting Shane (Reply 42):
They sent me to JFK on the shabbiest aircraft I've ever experienced: that 772 that sat around JFK for all those months. Maybe it was broken up later?

I think that shabby aircraft is still sitting at AFW at the moment, unless things have changed since I drove by there on my way to South Padre Island in September. In fact, I think two RG 777's are there along with a Royal Brunei 777.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Rockinflyer
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:48 pm



Quoting Malaysia (Reply 24):

I gotta agree with Malaysia. The L-1011 was the most striking tri-jet ever built. I remember several trips on them with BA, DL, and TW. Does anyone remember that the old Northeast Airlines ordered them but I guess never put them into service? Gorgeous "yellow-bird" paint scheme on them!
AA,AC,AF,BA,BN,BW,CO,DL,FL,F9,HA,KL,NA,PA,RW,TW,UA,WA,WN
 
FWA2500
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:27 pm

even having flown on trijets only about 6 times total (Delta L-1011s and MD-11s), i still love them....my earliest memory of flying was on a L-1011, i clearly remember having bulkhead seats in the centre....that was back when DL gave out postcards, i still have a few  Smile
ex-OH@CVG
 
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seabosdca
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:49 pm



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 26):
Same with the new large jets, what's up with the huge engines in the 777s and A345/6? If the A340 had hairdryers those are washing machines, they don't look right.

 eek   boggled  Sacrilege!  Wink

The big fans are the best thing about today's aircraft. There's nothing quite like a 777-200LR.  duck 

I better get out... if I stay in this thread, someone's going to run over me with a MD-11...
 
Cingularity
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:07 pm

Actually, Aviat (the new Russian/Ukrainian aviation consortium) is working on a new Tri-Jet (the A270) that will fit between the 748 and the A388 in the market. It will be just under 80m in length and wingspan and will hold 470 passengers in a typical 3-class setup. It features a single-deck with a huge underdeck, allowing carriers to greatly increase their cargo revenues. The 256" cross-section cabin will feature 18"/19" wide economy seats (just like most other commercial airliner concepts Aviat is working on) in a 10 abreast arrangement, although an 11 abreast with 17" seats is possible. The engines will be from AviaProgress (900-series) in the 99,500 lb. class with a MTOW of about 1,130,000 lbs.
The preceding has no basis in reality outside the confines of my imagination.

[Edited 2007-12-08 14:12:03]

[Edited 2007-12-08 14:12:44]
Aviat & AviaProgress only exist in my head. A flight of fantasy.
 
Flighty
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:53 pm

At least the beautiful new Dassault Falcon 7X is (still, of course) in production.
 
FWA2500
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RE: New Tri Jet Please?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:35 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
At least the beautiful new Dassault Falcon 7X is (still, of course) in production.

definatly! and its older sibling the 900 is also still widely used....such beautiful planes, Dassault really got the designs right on the Falcons, they are all great looking birds, especialy the 50, 900 and 7X  Smile

the 900 also is currently the largest aircraft we have ever had here at OXD and we also have a 50 that is a fairly regular visitor, so i am glad that i get to see tri-jets fairly often.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0dwbfXEfD7o
ex-OH@CVG

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