kaitak
Posts: 8944
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:22 pm

The Washington Post reports that a Delta Connection CRJ took off over a US A320 which had been on the runway, at BWI, because the controller gave an improper clearance. The FAA has started an inquiry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...AR2007120702258.html?nav=rss_metro
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:47 pm

The FAA has to hire more controllers. I hear more and more about aircraft almost hitting each other. The skies are busier and busier everyday. They need to get a new system going or else something might not be close and aircraft may hit each other and cause a big problem.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:01 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
The FAA has to hire more controllers.

 checkmark  Not only that, but the FAA has to hire enough controllers so that they don't have to have mandatory overtime and six-day weeks, and the controllers are working half-asleep. I've controlled half-alseep once - not fun. And that was just in a training simulator.

Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly wouldn't be in line with the new philosophy of cost-cutting and acting like a private corporation that the FAA, among other government organizations, has adopted.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
bennett123
Posts: 7442
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:14 pm

Regardless of what the FAA want, if they do not act, they may get something that they want even less.

David
 
plateman
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 9:36 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:13 pm

From NBC4, the station in Washington, my favorite quote:

"Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Jim Peters said a ComAir flight flew over an America West plane, which had just landed."

OK...so does the FAA not know America West is US on did the media misquote him? Bets anybody?

http://www.nbc4.com/news/14804838/detail.html?dl=headlineclick

[Edited 2007-12-08 09:13:17]
"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:28 pm



Quoting PlateMan (Reply 4):
OK...so does the FAA not know America West is US on did the media misquote him? Bets anybody?

My bet is, the A320 was in U.S Airways livery but still using the "Cactus" call sign which is all part of the transition so it was both  Smile

Who wants that bet?

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly wouldn't be in line with the new philosophy of cost-cutting and acting like a private corporation that the FAA, among other government organizations, has adopted.

Home Run.....cost cutting is killing a safety driven organization in so many ways, starting with personnel. More controllers are leaving than I think even NATCA thought when they were trying to get the FAA to listen.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
pilotboi
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:51 pm



Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
Another Runway Near Miss In US

Why do we still use the term "Near Miss"? It was used a long time ago, when the English language was backwards and such. But now a days it doesn't make any sense to the average person.
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:05 pm

Don't forget the near misses due to pilot error such as the one in Newark this week between the CO B737 jet landing and ExpressJest taxing across the runway.

WNBC.com?s Brian Thompson has learned that two Continental Airline jets had a near miss Thursday just before 9 p.m.

Sources told WNBC.com that the planes actually came within 300 feet of one another.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22152536/
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:34 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly

The FAA needs to realize that these controller's jobs are to protect the people that fly everyday. It is one of the hardest jobs. I am sure there are some controllers in this thread and they know what a burden it is to control so many aircraft in an already overly congested air space. If you want to hear what a controller's day is like go to this link:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-bWGxWBU
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
VS11
Posts: 877
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:22 pm

The conversion in that YouTube video was not very encouraging. Probably I should avoid flying via JFK.
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:27 pm

Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway. The economics just aren't there. Besides, here in the US...the people in general and the Government in particular ALWAYS think in REACTIVE mode. NEVER in PROACTIVE. When we see a few flaming balls of wreckage on a taxiway, then and only then will there be any justification for it. We will not see any investment in technology and/or increased staffing until then. I'm sorry. But we just won't.

In the meantime, as long as we can continue with a "whew...that was close....but no one was hurt" system, that's just the way it's going to be.

The only thing any of you can realistically hope for is that you or none of your loved ones end up on one of the catalyst disasters.

Sad.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:29 pm



Quoting Matt D (Reply 10):
Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway. The economics just aren't there. Besides, here in the US...the people in general and the Government in particular ALWAYS think in REACTIVE mode. NEVER in PROACTIVE. When we see a few flaming balls of wreckage on a taxiway, then and only then will there be any justification for it. We will not see any investment in technology and/or increased staffing until then. I'm sorry. But we just won't.

Sadly, I agree with you. In Canada obviously we don't have the traffic density you do down south, but we're starting to see increased 'loss of separation' incidents at the major airport.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 9):
The conversion in that YouTube video was not very encouraging.

Yup, you can hear the stress. Never mind the mandatory OT or 6-day weeks, stress alone will wear out the ATC guys. Heroes in my book for just keeping a creaky system going.

Both our countries, and likely Mexico too, need to look at large-scale, long-term investments in an integrated ATC system.

My $0.02 anyway.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
halls120
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Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:51 pm



Quoting Matt D (Reply 10):
Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway. The economics just aren't there. Besides, here in the US...the people in general and the Government in particular ALWAYS think in REACTIVE mode. NEVER in PROACTIVE. When we see a few flaming balls of wreckage on a taxiway, then and only then will there be any justification for it. We will not see any investment in technology and/or increased staffing until then. I'm sorry. But we just won't.


Absolutely correct. I've worked in DC since 1991, and we are nothing but reactive. When anyone raises their hand to suggest we adopt a more proactive stance on anything, that miscreant is quickly beaten down.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:29 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 8):
If you want to hear what a controller's day is like go to this link

To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:33 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Not only that, but the FAA has to hire enough controllers so that they don't have to have mandatory overtime and six-day weeks, and the controllers are working half-asleep. I've controlled half-alseep once - not fun. And that was just in a training simulator.

Exactly. Also, if we don't upgrade our Air Traffic Control System we are going to be in trouble.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
CO787EWR
Posts: 152
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:44 pm

Is the system better in the Europe and Asia could we possibly one of their systems.
 
beertrucker
Posts: 202
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:47 pm

well I know l Lot of people who would go into ATC but since you can't get into it after you turn 31 years old knocks a lot of people out of it. Someone told me you have to be in school for that before you turn 31. I have thought about doing ATC but cause of hearing that well that makes it so I can't do it. So kids it is up to you now.
Fly HI
 
Lexy
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:02 am



Quoting VS11 (Reply 9):
Probably I should avoid flying via JFK.

That's three-quarters the reason why things are the way they are in that YouTube. JFK is jacked up and nobody wants to fix it basically. Just give them more airspace to fly around is the answer the Bush admin. is giving. Why in the WORLD anyone (airlines) would want to continue to fly into and out of that airport is beyond me. I feel for the controllers. I have friends that are ATC's and they are tired.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
kaitak
Posts: 8944
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:03 am

Another report tonight of a near miss between two CO aircraft at EWR.

http://crazy4planes.blogspot.com/200...nental-airlines-jets-involved.html
 
Rockinflyer
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:32 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:06 am

I'vre read in many publications that LAX is the most notorious for incursions.
AA,AC,AF,BA,BN,BW,CO,DL,FL,F9,HA,KL,NA,PA,RW,TW,UA,WA,WN
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 889
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:53 am



Quoting Lexy (Reply 17):
That's three-quarters the reason why things are the way they are in that YouTube. JFK is jacked up and nobody wants to fix it basically. Just give them more airspace to fly around is the answer the Bush admin. is giving. Why in the WORLD anyone (airlines) would want to continue to fly into and out of that airport is beyond me. I feel for the controllers. I have friends that are ATC's and they are tired.

Because it's New York and thats where the demand lies.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:01 am



Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 15):
Is the system better in the Europe and Asia could we possibly one of their systems

They don't handle nearly as much traffic as even a quarter of the US ATC system. The comparison is one that a lot of people like to make, but isn't all that apt.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jetblueguy22
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:39 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average

I understand that. But it still shows the stress caused by the job. If stuff like that doesn't get the FAA thinking I don't know what will. Flying on B6 I fly out of JFK often and every time its busier and busier. Hearing this doesn't make me feel good and it shows how much there is a need for more controllers. But that is just me.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Jawed
Posts: 312
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RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:47 am

Guys, it should be called a near hit, not a near miss! If it was a near miss, then the planes would have collided (they would have nearly missed each other). But it was a near hit, because they nearly collided (and thus missed).
 
DMAJ7TH
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:04 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:51 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average.

-Mir

I agree. The controller on the youtube recording is doing a great deal of editorializing during his transmissions. Granted, he is under stress, and I know what its like when things get like that - I fly into Kennedy, LaGuardia and Teterboro on a weekly basis. Especially Teterboro. Teterboro is a second home for me (Yup, you guessed it, I fly corporate jets). Unfortunately, the editorials this controller is making add to the confusion and are probably unnecessary. Although, these New York controllers are some of the most colorful folks around. They're tough as nails.

Us pilots can hear when a controller is stressed from a particular situation, and we try our best to be respectful and compliant all the more when a confusing situation arises.

The whole runway incursion problem not only comes down to fatigue on the pilots and controllers end, but have to do with how pilots and controllers are trained. While I cannot speak for controller training (because I am not a controller) I can say that flight crew SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) either need some revising or light enforcement from the chief pilots who oversee the operations. Some company's are excellent in this field, others are not. I'm convinced that some (most certainly not all) flight crew's still are not doing the simple things to prevent runway incursions such as maintaining a sterile cockpit while taxiing and below 10,000 feet, suspending all non-essential tasks (such as checklist usage) when crossing active runways, reading back hold short clearances appropriately, questioning a confusing clearances, confirming a clearance that is vague, etc etc.

But unfortunately, along with these simple solutions comes throwing a certain amount of money into the problem as well. I'm not one who is always convinced that throwing money into a problem fixes it - but when it comes to improving controller staffing and modern, reliable equipment procurement, this is the case.
 
deltajet757
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:16 am

The bottom line is FAA needs to hire more controllers. They need to hire as many as they can get because the skies are only going to get busier and busier.

One thing airlines can do to help ease the amount of air traffic is to get rid of some of the ultra-short connection type flights that last under an hour, that croud up the skies. Or they can have some of those flights go to different airports.
But of course that creates some other problems as well. Regardless of that, we need more controllers up there in the towers.

-DeltaJet757
FLY DELTA JETS
 
twinotter
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:21 am



Quoting Jawed (Reply 23):
Guys, it should be called a near hit, not a near miss! If it was a near miss, then the planes would have collided (they would have nearly missed each other). But it was a near hit, because they nearly collided (and thus missed).

All native English speakers understand near miss. The etymology is "near thing" + "missed".

In other words, "a thing came near us, but we missed hitting it".

Get it?  Smile
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:15 am

Just come visit! Then make posts on sites like this. Have fun

Dare ya!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
scottieprecord
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:38 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:56 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average.

Haha yea, I think I've heard other ATC clips with him.

Quoting Jawed (Reply 23):
Guys, it should be called a near hit, not a near miss! If it was a near miss, then the planes would have collided (they would have nearly missed each other). But it was a near hit, because they nearly collided (and thus missed).

Near hit, to me, means they barely hit each other. Near miss means they barely missed each other. Lol, never thought how confusing that could be to a non-native speaker... either way, doubt it's gonna change. If the thread title had used "near hit," I woulda thought there was an actual collision. Interesting.

Mike
 
Rockinflyer
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:32 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:19 am

LOL. kinda like "gone missing", huh?
AA,AC,AF,BA,BN,BW,CO,DL,FL,F9,HA,KL,NA,PA,RW,TW,UA,WA,WN
 
twinotter
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:22 am



Quoting Rockinflyer (Reply 29):
LOL. kinda like "gone missing", huh?

And did you ever notice we park on driveways and drive on parkways ....  Smile
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:47 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
They don't handle nearly as much traffic as even a quarter of the US ATC system. The comparison is one that a lot of people like to make, but isn't all that apt.

Yes and no. The total of Europe has about 50% of the flights that the US ATC system has, but if you take Germany as an example: Germany has about 1/15th of the flights (around 10000 a day) that the US has, on about 1/30th of the area, so that traffic density is almost twice as high.

The US ATC system needs a upgrade in technology and manpower, quickly. And also a reconfiguration of several major airports (JFK, PHL, SFO, LAX ... )

SailorOrion
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:05 am

Just checking the numbers but it looks like we could hire 1 million new ATC people, modernize all of ATC, fully fund Social Security and pay off a huge chunk of the National Debt with the $3.5 TRILLION that is the eventual tab for the war in Iraq, hard and soft costs.

Oh, a small part of that would cover every American citizen with health insurance.

Mene, mene tekel upharsin.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:29 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
The FAA has to hire more controllers.

Not only that, but the FAA has to hire enough controllers so that they don't have to have mandatory overtime and six-day weeks, and the controllers are working half-asleep. I've controlled half-alseep once - not fun. And that was just in a training simulator.

Of course, hiring more controllers and treating them properly wouldn't be in line with the new philosophy of cost-cutting and acting like a private corporation that the FAA, among other government organizations, has adopted.

-Mir

Okay enough with all the union BS. Adding more people will not solve the problem. You must add more COMPETENT people. Let's face it, not all ATCs are very good at what they do, many cannot keep track of 4 airplanes, and BWI is a level 4 facility, which handles much more than 4 airplanes per controller at one time.

Many ATCs also volunteer for overtime, that is how over 300 ATCs are paid more each year than the Director of the FAA. The average ATC salary is well over $150,000 per year, not bad for a GS-14 ($52K-$75K per year).

So, cost cutting is a major issue. The FAA MUST cut costs, and the number one cost to cut is the well overpaid ATCs. The FAA must respond to the tax payers, and begin working to control labor costs. This is a major reason the FAA does not have the money to spend on runway incursion programs, like the runway status light systems (currently being tested at DFW on Rwy 18L/36R). There are other areas where money is needed, like the ASDE-X, and airport improvements.

It is interesting to note that if an airport employee causes a runway incursion, it is called a runway incursion. When a pilot causes a runway incursion, it is called a runway incursion. But when a Controller causes a runway incursion, it is called an operational deviation.

All we are getting now is an updated version of PATCO. That is the ATC union, from 1981 that tried to hold the whole nation hostage by going on strike and shutting down the air traffic system in the US. Hooray for President Reagan for firing all of them.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 5):
My bet is, the A320 was in U.S Airways livery but still using the "Cactus" call sign which is all part of the transition so it was both

Who wants that bet?

?????????? Just like all those Song B-757s using the DL call signs?  Confused
 
747fan
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:36 pm



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 11):
Yup, you can hear the stress. Never mind the mandatory OT or 6-day weeks, stress alone will wear out the ATC guys. Heroes in my book for just keeping a creaky system going.



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
To be fair, that's one of JFK's more charismatic controllers who gets irritated easily and is not afraid to show it. That's not the average.

I listen to the JFK Tower frequency on Liveatc.net occasionally and more often than not, he'll get irritated at some point while I'm listening. Its especially entertaining to listen to him due to his thick New York accent - "Ya faallowed the Embreeaare?" "Just follow the Haaawwke."  wink 
My favorite: "Yooore unable to to everything, sir, that plane of yooars, sir!"  laughing 
I know I'm spelling things incorrectly, but I'm trying to illustrate his accent...
Anyways, kudos to him, as he always manages to get the job done, seems to have a good personality and enjoys talking with the pilots, and the fact that he has the patience (well, not quite  wink  ) to be a JFK aircraft controller is a wonderful thing. That airport can be an absolute cluster@#$% during the evening departure rush.
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:12 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Many ATCs also volunteer for overtime, that is how over 300 ATCs are paid more each year than the Director of the FAA. The average ATC salary is well over $150,000 per year, not bad for a GS-14 ($52K-$75K per year).



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
So, cost cutting is a major issue. The FAA MUST cut costs, and the number one cost to cut is the well overpaid ATCs

I don't know the figures myself but will accept yours above.
If a GS-14 is 52k-75k how can you say that the ATC's are overpaid?

If you are going by the avg salary which includes OT then to cut costs would require the hiring of MORE controllers instead of paying so much OT pay. A new hire with benefits will cost less then paying a senior top out controller at the OT rate. So based on the average salary there is way too much OT and the system is understaffed.
 
P3Orion
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:48 pm

KC135TopBoom: You should get your facts straight before you throw stones.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Let's face it, not all ATCs are very good at what they do, many cannot keep track of 4 airplanes

Really. And you know this...how?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
BWI is a level 4 facility

Wrong. There is no such thing as a Level 4 facility.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
The average ATC salary is well over $150,000 per year

Wow, I wish I was the average. What is your source on this figure.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
not bad for a GS-14 ($52K-$75K per year).

FAA ATCS's are not on the GS pay scale. We haven't been since October of 1998.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
The FAA MUST cut costs, and the number one cost to cut is the well overpaid ATCs.

Do what IAHFLYR, ATCT, myself or any other controller does, particularly at an ATC 10, 11 or 12 facility during thunderstorms, an then say controllers are overpaid.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:17 pm

I am not sure how you achieved such a high respect rating on this site while making the incorrect, off the wall, and slanderous comments such as below, but you've pretty much missed the ball and pissed at least me off.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
many cannot keep track of 4 airplanes, and BWI is a level 4 facility, which handles much more than 4 airplanes per controller at one time.

From your assessment of the job and facts, you are still not up on the correct terms, pay, or even the ability of a controller.........you might want to update your information before making such incorrect statements.

Each and every one the controllers (90 tower/TRACON) I work around are very capable of handling more than 4 airplanes at a time, each and every time they grab the headset and plug in to a position. Not sure why you would make that statement, are you part of the new media as well?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
BWI is a level 4 facility

ATC pay scales as well as the nomenclature used to classify the pay around 10 yrs back.....so again, get the facts correct. The pay is not GS levels and the facilities are classified as ATC 12's 11, 10, 9, 8 and so on.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Okay enough with all the union BS.

It is not union BS....I see the folks leaving the facility on their retirement day and no more walking into the doors that will be getting anywhere near the amount of training required to be fully qualified in the facility or sectors. Many get the checkout on 1 or 2 positions, then they have to fight in order to get more training time because they're being used for coverage on the positions they're qualified to work on with general supervision. That is fact not any union BS pal.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Many ATCs also volunteer for overtime, that is how over 300 ATCs are paid more each year than the Director of the FAA. The average ATC salary is well over $150,000 per year, not bad for a GS-14 ($52K-$75K per year).

What facility do controllers request overtime? Sure isn't DFW TRACON, they have been using Supervisors to work overtime shifts as controllers....other facilities are calling in Support Specialists to work overtime....doesn't sound like to many volunteers are standing in line does it? Oh yeah, controllers are not GS anything in pay as mentioned previously.

Do you even know what the Director as you say of the FAA makes? Do you have any idea that with differential pay alone (night, holiday, and instructor pay) more than 300 controllers make more?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
All we are getting now is an updated version of PATCO. That is the ATC union, from 1981 that tried to hold the whole nation hostage by going on strike and shutting down the air traffic system in the US. Hooray for President Reagan for firing all of them.

Yet another remark made from complete lack of knowledge. If the updated version of PATCO was in place today, there would already have been a strike. Didn't happen nor will it. There is not one controller I know holding anyone hostage, in fact just the opposite, they're wanting the management to make intelligent changes to why system and procedures using the vast amount of experience within the ATC ranks, not by knee jerk reactions which is so often seen.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Just like all those Song B-757s using the DL call signs?

Not even similar in the U.S. Airways example.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:35 pm



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 36):
Do what IAHFLYR, ATCT, myself or any other controller does, particularly at an ATC 10, 11 or 12 facility during thunderstorms, an then say controllers are overpaid.

 bigthumbsup 

P30rion, I didn't mean to almost rewrite your entire post, you're just faster with the keyboard it seems, and I had reached my limit of 4 quotes, so went down the toilet and lost the picture!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
P3Orion
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 38):
P30rion, I didn't mean to almost rewrite your entire post, you're just faster with the keyboard it seems, and I had reached my limit of 4 quotes, so went down the toilet and lost the picture!

KC135TopBoom's post got me fired up. We're (FAA controllers) not perfect. But I will not sit back and let some misinformed individual take pot shots at my fellow controllers, at me or my profession. All my co-workers at ORD can work more than four aircraft at a time (they'd better). As a matter of fact, all my former co-workers at ALB and ZDC could work more than four as well. I have read his comments about controllers before. He seems to have a grudge. Anyway, after being at ORD for two years, I know all about going down the tubes. 

[Edited 2007-12-09 10:36:42]

[Edited 2007-12-09 10:48:38]
I will have a Manhattan.
 
Rockinflyer
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:32 pm

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:16 pm



Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 30):
And did you ever notice we park on driveways and drive on parkways



Yeah! That too! Here's another I heard on CNN today: "Turned up missing"!  Smile
AA,AC,AF,BA,BN,BW,CO,DL,FL,F9,HA,KL,NA,PA,RW,TW,UA,WA,WN
 
IADCA
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:28 pm



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 36):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
not bad for a GS-14 ($52K-$75K per year).

FAA ATCS's are not on the GS pay scale. We haven't been since October of 1998.

Even funnier because a GS-14 is a lot more than that (79,000-102,000) without even accounting for locality pay.

http://www.opm.gov/oca/07tables/pdf/gs.pdf
 
rongotai
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 11:59 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:25 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
So, cost cutting is a major issue. The FAA MUST cut costs, and the number one cost to cut is the well overpaid ATCs

So-- you don't believe in free markets then? In a free market if there is a shortage of something, and people need them, the price goes up. So it is impossible to have overpaid workers in a free market when you can't get enough of them at the price you are paying.

I always find it interesting how often it is that the people who extol free markets the loudest are the most intolerant of the workings of a free LABOUR market.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:13 am



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 39):
I have read his comments about controllers before. He seems to have a grudge.

I was thinking the exact same thing.....then after he makes them he runs and hides for a few days! I think the real story is he was one of those 4 airplanes down the tube controllers, didn't make it and thus the grudge! Just my opinion.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Mason
Posts: 636
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 1999 12:01 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:30 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 5):
My bet is, the A320 was in U.S Airways livery but still using the "Cactus" call sign which is all part of the transition so it was both  

Who wants that bet?

I'll take it. This is very possible, although whenever you hear your "flight number", your ears should perk up, even if it isn't you. It is possible for two aircrafts of different lines to have the same flight number and be on the same frequency. Good accident avoidance is the role of the controller and the flightdeck.
 
P3Orion
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:31 am

I hope he responds to either you or I. I'd like to know why he has such a low opinion of ATC.

[Edited 2007-12-09 19:42:07]
I will have a Manhattan.
 
P3Orion
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:02 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 43):
.....then after he makes them he runs and hides for a few days! I think the real story is he was one of those 4 airplanes down the tube controllers, didn't make it and thus the grudge

Where did he get his "facts?"
I will have a Manhattan.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:10 am



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 46):
Where did he get his "facts?"

Who knows...probably pulled them out of his PATCO books from the late 70's when he was a boomer, if he was....think I might have to run a check with my pals at DFW and find out more of this guy, shouldn't be too difficult to find him!!!!  Smile

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 45):
I hope he responds to either you or I.

I'd prefer that he puts his reputation on the line right here on this thread! I'll be surprised if he shows up anytime soon.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:56 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Okay enough with all the union BS. Adding more people will not solve the problem. You must add more COMPETENT people. Let's face it, not all ATCs are very good at what they do, many cannot keep track of 4 airplanes, and BWI is a level 4 facility, which handles much more than 4 airplanes per controller at one time.

It is not like you put an ad in the newspaper saying "Wanted Air Traffic Controller, Starting Immediately" You go through training. And just because you have a job doesn't mean you good at it. In your job are all the people you work with everyday good at their job?
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Another Runway Near Miss In US

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:15 pm



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
The FAA has to hire more controllers.

People turn down these ATC jobs all the time because they will not take the $31,700 the FAA is offering them. I was stupid and accepted that offer. I've never had to ask my mom and dad for money before I took this job. They need to negotiate a new contract, but that won't happen because of Bush.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 5):
More controllers are leaving than I think even NATCA thought when they were trying to get the FAA to listen.

Agreed. Why would anyone stay that is eligible? Their pay is frozen, and there is a huge rift between management and labor in this field.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 10):
Not a chance of seeing more controllers. At least not until we see a couple more Tenerife's anyway.

True, and it'll be a sad day in this profession when that happens. And it'll happen, remember you heard that here.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 10):
In the meantime, as long as we can continue with a "whew...that was close....but no one was hurt" system, that's just the way it's going to be.

Another true statement. No one knows how close they come to breaking separation most of the time...even the pilots.

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 14):
Exactly. Also, if we don't upgrade our Air Traffic Control System we are going to be in trouble.

The trouble is an disgruntled labor group, lack of available runways, new controller work force, and an antiquated air traffic system. Each of these is just as important as the next but you can't improve the air traffic system and think that the lack of available runways will support putting aircraft closer together. Because either you have to let airplanes land on the same runway at the same time or you might as well leave separation standards the same.

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