od-bwh
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Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:40 pm

Is the A350-1000 supposed to compete with the current A340-600? The same question applies to the A350-900 VS. A340-500.

The physical data, range, seating capacities, etc... are almost matching for the compared models. By the time the A350 enters service, the A340-500/600 will be relatively new to replace. What is the Airbus thinking?

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shamrock350
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:44 pm

I think it's more likely that the A350 has been designed to replace the A330/A340 family rather than compete or complement.

The A350 is still a good few years away and many airlines might want to replace their A340s and possibly older 777s by that time.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:53 pm



Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
What is the Airbus thinking?

They're thinking the 787 is replacing the A330 and the 777 offers up very stiff competition to the A340. Airbus needed something to replace the A340 and compete effectively with the 777, hence the A350ZTVDESN mk.89.  Smile
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WingedMigrator
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:53 pm



Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
By the time the A350 enters service, the A340-500/600 will be relatively new to replace. What is the Airbus thinking?

The A345/A346 fuel burn is some 40% higher than the A359R/A3510's. That is why the A350 is quite simply replacing the A340. Expect the A340 to disappear from the lineup by the time of A350 EIS.
 
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moo
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:00 pm

Compete? I think the word is 'destroy', especially if Airbus puts an A350XWB-1100 on the market to serve the A340-600 market space.
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
especially if Airbus puts an A350XWB-1100 on the market to serve the A340-600 market space.

No need: the A350-1000 already does that.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:05 pm



Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
Is the A350-1000 supposed to compete with the current A340-600? The same question applies to the A350-900 VS. A340-500.

The A350 program replaces the A330 and A340 in the Airbus family.

The A332 and A333 will likely last longest, since the A358 is not an optimal replacement for them (but then neither is the 787-8 for the 767-200ER and yet it is replacing them, as well).

The A340 family will quickly move to a handful of frames per year as interim lift for airlines, much as the 767 has done.
 
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moo
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm



Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 5):
No need: the A350-1000 already does that.

Hmm, I'm half in agreement and half not - at 350 seats, the -1000 is inbetween the A340-500 (313) and -600 (380), so I would like to see a larger A350-1100 which would sit more comfortably between the -1000 and the A380 at, say, 400 - 410 seats maybe.

Thoughts?
 
brendows
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:20 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 7):
Hmm, I'm half in agreement and half not - at 350 seats, the -1000 is inbetween the A340-500 (313) and -600 (380),

The A346 is not really a true 380 seater, even though Airbus has that as the standard seat config... Try using the new and more realistic seat config Airbus used on the A380, and you'll see that the seat count on the A346 falls quite a bit, and that the A3510 is a true replacement for it.
 
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moo
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:02 pm



Quoting Brendows (Reply 8):

The A346 is not really a true 380 seater, even though Airbus has that as the standard seat config... Try using the new and more realistic seat config Airbus used on the A380, and you'll see that the seat count on the A346 falls quite a bit, and that the A3510 is a true replacement for it.

So what makes the A340-600 figure unrealistic but the A350-1000 figure realistic?
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:06 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
So what makes the A340-600 figure unrealistic but the A350-1000 figure realistic?

The seat density in the standard seat config for the A346 (380 seats and a floor area of 314 m^2) is quite a bit higher than the standard seat density for the A3510 (350pax and a floor area of about 318 m^2,) it's even quite a bit higher than the seat density you'll find on the A345 (which is pretty much similar to the seat density on the A359 and A3510,) and much much higher than the seat density on the A388.
This is the case due to a artificially high number of Y seats in the standard config for the A346.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:33 pm



Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 5):
No need: the A350-1000 already does that.

 checkmark 

The A350-1000 is only 1.4 m shorter than the A340-600. It's a 9-abreast airplane where the A340-600 is an 8-abreast airplane. I don't have cabin measurements for the A350-1000, but those specs suggest to me that the A350-1000 might seat *more* people in a comparable configuration.

The A340-600 does not hold 380 seats for any airline I can think of that operates it.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:37 pm



Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 11):
It's a 9-abreast airplane where the A340-600 is an 8-abreast airplane. I

I thought the standard A350 seats 8 abreast, but low-cost airlines (or EK for that matter) can configure it to seat 9 abreast.
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:49 pm



Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 11):
The A340-600 does not hold 380 seats for any airline I can think of that operates it.

Lufthansa, but I think thats in 2 classes. AKAIK the A340-600 is universally regarded as being a 350 seater, and the 777-300ER as a 365 seater.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 12):
Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 11):
It's a 9-abreast airplane where the A340-600 is an 8-abreast airplane. I

I thought the standard A350 seats 8 abreast, but low-cost airlines (or EK for that matter) can configure it to seat 9 abreast.

The old (A330 based) A350 was an 8 abreast aircraft. The A350XWB is a nine abreast aircraft.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:53 pm



Quoting EI321 (Reply 13):
Lufthansa, but I think thats in 2 classes. AKAIK the A340-600 is universally regarded as being a 350 seater, and the 777-300ER as a 365 seater.

Not quite. The LH 2-class config seats 369.

The confusion stems from Airbus itself listing the A350-1000 as a 350-seater while listing the smaller (in cabin area) A340-600 as a 380-seater. Why they do so is not a mystery; it's flattering to structural efficiency (where the A340-600 is weak) at the expense of range (where it's strong and doesn't need flattering).
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:10 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
So what makes the A340-600 figure unrealistic but the A350-1000 figure realistic?

Seat Magic (TM).

There are probably three ways to measure and compare the seating capacity of an aircraft, in order of increasing complexity and accuracy:

(a) cabin floor area, which takes no account of seat / aisle width or areas lost to door vestibules and cabin monuments
(b) cabin floor length times the number of seats abreast in Y, which is slightly better than (a) in terms of taking into account seat / aisle widths, but still doesn't take into account areas lost to door vestibules and cabin monuments
(c) a detailed layout of the cabin taking into account all the detailed dimensions, and assuming a given seat width, pitch and class mix.

The manufacturers provide (c), but do not always assume the same seat pitch, width or class mix... assumptions which are usually not even stated anywhere. Hence the futility of the whole exercise, and why Seat Magic (TM) can be used to quite an advantage in arriving at whatever preconceived result one desires while sounding quite authoritative.

Bottom line: take any seat counts with a grain of salt, where performance comparisons are involved.
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:16 pm



Quoting Brendows (Reply 10):
A3510 (350pax and a floor area of about 318 m^2,)

By the way, what are the respective floor areas of the A350 models? I had 241 / 274 / 308 m2 for the A358 / A359 / A3510, but I forgot where I got those figures. Does anybody have a source?
 
eaa3
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:35 pm

The A350 will kill the A340.

Point's been made. But I just wanted to say that.
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:49 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 4):
Compete? I think the word is 'destroy', especially if Airbus puts an A350XWB-1100 on the market to serve the A340-600 market space.



Quoting Moo (Reply 7):
I would like to see a larger A350-1100 which would sit more comfortably between the -1000 and the A380 at, say, 400 - 410 seats maybe.

I would also not mind a 79 or even 80 meter long A350-1100, and I think they could build it easily now that they have the materials and structure to do it.

However, the 747-8I can fly a long way at that size class. I am not sure an A350-1100XWB would be able to fly even the range of the A350-1000 and I think that might be a key point.

NS
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:02 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 17):
The A350 will kill the A340.

Thats the idea behind it. Its the same as saying the 787 will kill the 767.
 
Rara
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:09 am

Isn't the word "kill" a bit dramatic for what's commonly known as a 'replacement'?
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ktachiya
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:24 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 20):
kill" a bit dramatic for what's commonly known as a 'replacement'?

Kill, replace? or compete? I hope it doesn't have a climb rate like the A340-300. I hope its closer to the A330 series in that regard.
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seabosdca
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:46 am



Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 15):
Seat Magic (TM).

 Big grin  bigthumbsup  A favorite practice of both airframe manufacturers.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 21):
I hope it doesn't have a climb rate like the A340-300.

It's about the money, not the climb rate, as sad as that may make a.netters. But it's a twin, so it will be better than an A343 or 741. Twins are more overpowered than quads because they need to survive losing half their power, not 25%, in an engine-out situation.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
I am not sure an A350-1100XWB would be able to fly even the range of the A350-1000 and I think that might be a key point.

We just had a thread discussing Airbus's claims for A350-1000 range, and some of us were rather skeptical. The quoted difference in range between the -1000 and the -900 seems too small given the empty weight and thrust increases and the lack of additional fuel capacity. Watch for small but meaningful declines in the published range over time, like we've seen with the 787.
 
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:16 am



Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Thats the idea behind it. Its the same as saying the 787 will kill the 767.

My understanding has been the 767 was killed by the A330; the 787 is just attending the funeral.
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WingedMigrator
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:31 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 20):
Isn't the word "kill" a bit dramatic

It's what happens when nerds get emotional.  Big grin

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 22):
The quoted difference in range between the -1000 and the -900 seems too small given the empty weight and thrust increases and the lack of additional fuel capacity.

You won't be able to tell much about range by looking at empty weights. MTOW must be considered as well, and the -1000 has 30,000 kg more of that over the -900. The idea of a -1100 gets tossed about because the -1000 has as a bigger wing and just as many MLG wheels as the 773ER, but weighs 50,000 kg less at MTOW. Provided an engine with suitable thrust (115 klbs) is available, those extra 50 tonnes could be used to preserve the range of a theoretical -1100 stretch compared to a -1000.

You're right that the wing tanks might be maxed out, though.

Where would the engine come from? Perhaps something Y3 related.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:39 am



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 17):
The A350 will kill the A340.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 23):
My understanding has been the 767 was killed by the A330; the 787 is just attending the funeral.

Much the same as the 340 has already been killed by the 777; the 350 is just attending the funeral.

[Edited 2007-12-09 21:45:41]
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
thegeek
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:03 am

Neither is quite dead yet, so let's not get this emotional.

I expect that the A332 will be the longest lasting, by a fair margin. If they had a A330-300HGW that would be a different story.
 
AussieItaliano
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:05 am



Quoting OD-BWH (Thread starter):
The physical data, range, seating capacities, etc... are almost matching for the compared models. By the time the A350 enters service, the A340-500/600 will be relatively new to replace. What is the Airbus thinking?

The same could be said about the 764 or the recently delivered 762ER. Although they have been recently delivered, they aren't the best sellers (like the 345 and 346). The majority of 767s and 330/340s will need to be replaced within 10 years.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Thats the idea behind it. Its the same as saying the 787 will kill the 767.

Exactly.
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brendows
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 16):
By the way, what are the respective floor areas of the A350 models? I had 241 / 274 / 308 m2 for the A358 / A359 / A3510, but I forgot where I got those figures. Does anybody have a source?

Stitch posted those figures in this thread: A350 - No Longer A 787 Competitor? (by Aloha717200 Oct 31 2006 in Civil Aviation)
But I don't know where he got them from...

Quoting Stitch:

A350-800: 240.8 sq meters
A350-900: 274.3 sq meters
A350-1000: 307.8 sq meters (assumes 6 meter stretch)

Now, the A350-1000 is not a 6 meter stretch, but is 7 meters longer than the A359, and this increases the floor area a bit more.
My figures came from a chart made by good old Widebodyphotog

[Edited 2007-12-10 08:55:01]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:21 pm



Quoting Brendows (Reply 28):
My figures came from a chart made by good old Widebodyphotog.  Smile

Has he published new charts with the A350XWB? Last charts I have from him are for the original A350-800 and A350-900.

As to my figures, I found a German site that had the cabin length, so I multiplied that by the cabin width. I will need to update the A350-1000 numbers, however.
 
brendows
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:32 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Has he published new charts with the A350XWB?

You'll find it here:
master_lh_mission_dataset.gif
He published it in this thread: Fuel Burn - How They Stack Up (by WingedMigrator Aug 4 2007 in Tech Ops)
 
od-bwh
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:15 pm



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 21):
I hope it doesn't have a climb rate like the A340-300. I hope its closer to the A330 series in that regard.

What about the climbe rate of the A343? I've never been on board.

I've flown the A332 though, and have to admit that EK has misconfigured their Airbuses. I know it's not the best aircraft in the Airbus family. I prefer flying A320's and A321's... Guess these are real success stories for Airbus to tell.

Of the record, I liked the 772 and 773 of EK as well.. Very spacious, comfy, and look real sturdy.

OD-BWH
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Stitch
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:23 pm

Thanks, Brendows!
 
eaa3
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:41 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 17):
The A350 will kill the A340.

It was a joke though so don't read to much into it.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Would The A350 Compete With The A340?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:08 pm



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 33):
It was a joke though so don't read to much into it.

Airliners.net is like the TSA - we don't respond well to jokes. Big grin

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