jeb
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:34 am

Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:02 am

OK, I may be a little slow...or may, simply, not understand Pan Am's Route Structure. Why is there a 727 at Frankfurt in this picture:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Erik Bentsen



I didn't know a 727 could fly across the Atlantic, or did Pan Am have domestic routes outside of the US? If so, was this unusual for carriers during that time? Are there any airlines that operate that way now?

Also, how are smaller aircraft (from 737's to Cessnas) transported across long distances such as over the Atlantic?

Thanks,
Jeb!
 
AF777
Posts: 262
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 1999 11:44 pm

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:08 am

From what I understand, Pan Am did have inter-European routes based out of their Frankfurt hub. TWA had similar routes though I don't know if they used any narrow-bodied aircraft.
-wes
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:12 am

Hello,

The 727s based at FRA flew on Europe and notably Berlin-Tegel (TXL), which was located in the West of the city (French part).

There were also some other routes which Delta took up when it bought Pan Am's European network (apart from London), but they quickly dropped them.
Don't wanna give you wrong information about the routes, so I'm sure some people will tell us.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:23 am

Delta can today not again do intra eu flights with traffic rights. No non EU carrier is permitted to intra EU flights with traffic rights.

Avion
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:23 am

From London Heathrow, Pan Am had about 8 727-200s in a mixed configuration of about 30 F seats and 120 Y seats... they did routes to Geneva, Zurich, Amsterdam, Brussels, Frankfurt (along w/ A300s), Berlin, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, etc... most of these routes, with exceptions of Amsterdam (done by a UA 767-300ER), were given over to partner Lufthansa.

Nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:43 am

Pan Am had intra European operations at LHR FRA and TXL. Unlike what Avion states UA and to an extent DL could restart those rights. They however could not have cabatoge rights on those flights.

For many years after world war II Lufthansa was prohibited from flying within Germany. It ended up that all intra German flying was flown by the allied victors (BA, AF, TW/PA). The end result being that when in the late 1980s the time came for a decision on if PA would continue to fly intra-German routes they opted along with others to dicontinue them as LH gained the rights to fly internally with German reunification.

TWA also operated intra European services out of CDG FCO and LHR.

It is amazing to see so many on this forum who claim to know so much give answers that are so incorrect. I suggest in the future a little prior research would be in order rather then stating incorrect information as facts.

BTW The Pan Am operations in TXL flew 727, 737, A310, 747 aircraft. In FRA 727, A310 and 747 and in LHR 727, A310, 747 aircraft when they stopped intra European flying in the late 1980s.

Al (Ex-Pan Am'er who was there!)
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:48 am

dad, don't be so mean to ME! *LOL*

according to the EU, the rights must be presently used. And with Wolfy bought up Pan Am's lovely LHR operation, he flew them for a few years but gave them all over to LH..... but can someone like BD pick up the rights from UA???

But what did happen to the 8 LHR based 727's?? I am looking at United's 727 roster right now and they are all 727-200s delivered originally to them.. nothing that seem to be Ex Pan Am planes.. or did someone like StarTrek or Kiwi pick em up and drive them into the ground?
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:50 am

Acvitale:
I said that DL/UA today dont have local traffic rights on the routes as they did in the 1980s. They can still operate these flights but only with international connex traffic.

Avion
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 8:18 am

Not sure if BD can pick up the old LHR rights, as they already fly the same routes that UA had rights for (what would be the point?).

As it was explained to me through letters from UA, the LHR operation was very costly, as they couldn't pick up any local traffic, and had to rely on their Trans-Atlantic flights to feed them. UA just stopped flying LHR-Europe with 727's, and used the Intra-European slots at LHR for more profitable Trans-Atlantic flights.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
tol air
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 11:02 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 12:19 pm

Heck yeah!!!!!!!

A 727 CAN fly accross the Atlantic. My dad´s first flight to Europe was on a PANAM 727 departing SJU arriving at London (don´t know which airport).

He says it was (at that time one of the fastest planes around the Atlantic, but it was a little crampted)

I can imagine 8 hours on a 727!!!!!!!
 
Guest

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 1:14 pm

Tol air--

No Way did that, could that, or will that ever happen.

 
trintocan
Posts: 2725
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2000 4:47 pm

Tol Air, are you sure? A San Juan-London route sounds rather long for a 727 and I doubt that the type could actually handle such a route. In fact, the maximum range for a 727-200 is 4450 kilometres while the SJU-LHR route is about 6400 kilometres. It may have been that he stopped along the way but then that still seems far-fetched.

727s do have the range for trans-Atlantic flights such as JFK-LHR but are not normally used because the high passenger and cargo traffic on those routes make it more economical to use larger jets. This has resulted in the 767 being the most common type across the North Atlantic. Not even 757s are used that much on those sectors (charters being the exception).

 
Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:01 am

I have never once heard of Pan Am flying San Juan-London, much less on a 727. Perhaps this was in the late '60s/'70s when the -200s came out, but I doubt it.
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

Non-stop Europe-US

Mon Aug 28, 2000 2:19 am

Hello,

What routes did they have non-stop from Europe to the US please?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Non-stop Europe-US

Mon Aug 28, 2000 4:32 am

you realize that you are asking for about 50 routes... they did almost everything from JFK ... did a TON from LHR (bos, mia, jfk, iad, ewr, sea, sfo, etc).. FRA is the same situation.... the best thing to do would look at Delta's operatoin from JFK and that almost mirrors the Pan Am ops, with exceptions into the former eastern block countries which Pan Am did w/ A310s.

try searching for Pan Am on the internet... there are a few historical sites around..

Also, SJU - LHR was flown briefly w/ a 707.

nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
tol air
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 11:02 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2000 5:36 am

Yes I´m shure. I asked my dad again , and he told me that it was a 727 flight. He could be wrong, but I really doubt it cause he loves planes maybe even more than me. And believe me thats a LOT.
well bye.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2000 9:33 am

TolAir... i'm not necessarily calling your dad wrong, but one of my principals is a former Pan Am pilot..... the 727 was not flown from SJU to LHR.. it may have been a flight from SJU to MIA to LHR and SJU - MIA was a 727, but I have checked with some sources who know this industry more than their wives and all have said the only airline that has consistently flown smaller planes across the atlantic is FI-- IcelandAir.. at one point they did a 737-400 into Boston one or two days a week in the early 90s during the Gulf War.

SJU to the Canaries.. that is another story.. the 727 could possibly do that... but again, back in the 70s and 80s, it made no sense to operate a 727 overwater that far. Otherwise they would have been doing it now (like TWA, for example).
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
klwright69
Posts: 2318
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2000 11:07 am

Aside from all the cities that SegmentKing said, PA even flew DTW-LHR.

I flew on a PA 727 from FRA to IST in 1990. It had local board passengers from FRA as well.

On the way back I flew on a 727 back to FRA, sat there for a few hours, then flew on a 727 from FRA back to LHR. Then boarded a 747 back to JFK.

PA used 727's extensively out of FRA

I remember that PA also had a 747 going to IAD along with one going to JFK (but I waited and was routed through LHR for some strange reason).

PA's presence between the states and LHR was unsurpassed. PA's presence to FRA from the states wasn't quite as extensive for certain.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:16 pm

In 1989 these were the gateways to LHR and FRA.

LHR from
JFK, DTW, LAX, SEA, SFO, MIA, IAD

FRA from
LAX, SFO, JFK, MIA, IAD

CDG from
JFK, MIA, IAD, (seasonal LAX, SFO)

727,A310,747 Intra European flights orginated from hubs in TXL,FRA,and LHR
 
ryanair
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:29 am

As of September 1990 the IGS (Internal German Services) routes were Berlin:
Bremen,
Dusseldorf,
Frankfurt,
Hamburg,
Hanover,
Kiel,
Munich,
Nuremberg,
Stuttgart
and Westerland.

Flights were also operated from Berlin to:
Oslo,
Stockholm,
Copenhagen,
Strasbourg,
Basle/Mulshouse
and Zurich.

Out of Frankfurt a complex web of routes served Delhi,
Karachi,
Bombay,
Riyadh,
Nairobi,
Ankara,
Athens,
Belgrade,
Bucharest,
Dubrovnik,
Budapest,
Zagreb,
Prague,
Krakow,
Warsaw,
Moscow
and Leningrad.
There was also a three day a week flight to New York via Munich in adition to the non stops already mentioned.

There were three flights a day to London Heathrow and somewhere in my mind I think the Frankfurt - Miami flight stopped in Paris. With the exception of that one all the above allowed local carrage.

Pan Am had rights to link flights almost anyway it fancied in Europe, many like London - Paris/ Brussels/ Amsterdam it didn't use but were still valid (as was seen when UA cranked them up again). Although most ex. Heathrow didn't allow local traffic, virtually everywhere else (eg. Paris and Brussels to Geneva) it was allowed.

A couple of errors I noted elsewhere. The IGS routes were sold to Lufthansa in late 1990, as PA waited for the Heathrow deal to go through. Pan Am operated the routes for a few more months until Lufthansa could get the necessary a/c and crews etc together. I think the price was about $150 million (not sure on that) and dear old Tom Plaskett trotted over to say how wonderful the future was for the new Pan Am cashed up with the proceeds of the sale.

The United LHR deal only included 2x 747-200 and no other a/c, the 727's it used at LHR were origional UA planes. Quite a lot of the staff were made redundant from day one too.

In answer to the point of the SJN flight, I'm told there was never any Pan Am service from Sjn to Lon but it is possible such a flight may have been operated as a charter, also the 727's were ferried across the atlantic a bit, because of the alternate peaks in demand (ie. IGS was summer, Carribbean winter) and maybe on one such occassion a charter was operated.

Small planes are in fact flown across the atlantic (I'm talking Cessnas etc. here) upon delivery, there are a surprisingly large number of small fields along the way (Norther Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Shetlands Islamds etc), this practise has received some television coverage in the UK of late.

 
ryanair
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:46 am

As of September 1990 the IGS (Internal German Services) routes were Berlin to:
Bremen,
Dusseldorf,
Frankfurt,
Hamburg,
Hanover,
Kiel,
Munich,
Nuremberg,
Stuttgart
and Westerland.

Flights were also operated from Berlin to:
Oslo,
Stockholm,
Copenhagen,
Strasbourg,
Basle/Mulshouse
and Zurich.

Out of Frankfurt a complex web of routes served Delhi,
Karachi,
Bombay,
Riyadh,
Nairobi,
Ankara,
Athens,
Belgrade,
Bucharest,
Dubrovnik,
Budapest,
Zagreb,
Prague,
Krakow,
Warsaw,
Moscow
and Leningrad.
There was also a three day a week flight to New York via Munich in adition to the non stops already mentioned.

There were three flights a day to London Heathrow and somewhere in my mind I think the Frankfurt - Miami flight stopped in Paris. With the exception of that one all the above allowed local carrage.

Pan Am had rights to link flights almost anyway it fancied in Europe, many like London - Paris/ Brussels/ Amsterdam it didn't use but were still valid (as was seen when UA cranked them up again). Although most ex. Heathrow didn't allow local traffic, virtually everywhere else (eg. Paris and Brussels to Geneva) it was allowed.

A couple of errors I noted elsewhere. The IGS routes were sold to Lufthansa in late 1990, as PA waited for the Heathrow deal to go through. Pan Am operated the routes for a few more months until Lufthansa could get the necessary a/c and crews etc together. I think the price was about $150 million (not sure on that) and dear old Tom Plaskett trotted over to say how wonderful the future was for the new more focused Pan Am, cashed up with the proceeds of the sale.

The United LHR deal only included 2x 747-200 and no other a/c, the 727's it used at LHR were origional UA planes. Quite a lot of the staff were made redundant from day one too. Certainly up until recently UA flew the LHR-CDG, BRU, AMS routes.

In answer to the point of the SJN flight, I'm told there was never any Pan Am service from Sjn to Lon but it is possible such a flight may have been operated as a charter, also the 727's were ferried across the atlantic a bit (certainly in pre National days, don't know about after that), because of the alternate peaks in demand (ie. IGS was summer, Carribbean winter) and maybe on one such occassion a charter was operated.n

Small planes are in fact flown across the atlantic (I'm talking Cessnas etc. here) upon delivery, there are a surprisingly large number of small fields along the way (Norther Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Shetlands Islamds etc), this practise has received some television coverage in the UK of late.

I would imagine any airline would find it extremely hard (and in this day of alliances undesirable) to get similar rights today, but on the basis of UA restarting the long dead London - Delhi route and DL doing the same to London - Frankfurt (both since shut) and operating local traffic as PA did, I would have though UA and DL would be able to crank the routes up again, depending on developments in bilateral arrangements.

A question for anynody who knows, Pan Am Express, which was sold to TWA and later onto Trans State, operations at Berlin were not included in the sale to Lufthansa and continued to operate after the sale. Who owns those routes? Were they included in the Delta sale or did PA Express hang onto them and they pass onto TWA and then Trans State? Answers on a postcard to......

Hope that help. Thanks to anybody who knows the answer to my questions!
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 3:20 am

A few notes on the above (which I have found fascinating, being a Pan Am enthusiast who saw their 747SPs from LA fly over my house in Sydney as a child but never flew with them).

Pan Am also flew Brussels to Amsterdam in the 70s with 747s. They never flew nonstop London to Detroit. This was an extension of their evening flight to JFK. The flight number was 103 (yes, that one).

In the 60s and 70s they applied for all kinds of trully bizarre routes, including a daily 747 from Bangkok to Sydney, scheduled flights from the US to Saigon (US imperialism!), and a Friday evening 707 to a tiny island in the Caribbean called Eleutheria (sp?). There were usually only a few pax on the flight, but Juan Trippe had a holiday home there and hence the flight!

I've mentioned this before but it always makes me furrow my brow in confusion so here it is again: Pan Am reinstated flights to Beirut in 1983 when the Marines went there to...well, I don't know what they were doing and neither did Ronnie, but anyway, their barracks (that were eventually blown up by the Lebanese resistance with a catastrophic loss of life) were right next to the airport, and whenever the 727 took off for Frankfurt, all the troops had to salute the jet as it climbed over their heads. (The US adventure in Lebanon was one of the greatest military blunders in US history and please don't think I'm making fun of their disastrous losses, but the idea of all those soldiers on a 'peace-keeping' tour, surrounded on three sides by hostile guerillas and getting shot at, but not allowed to put bullets in their guns, having to salute a Pan Am jet every afternoon, is VERY surreal. What were they thinking?)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 3:30 am

Um.. Pan AM did IN FACT fly DTW - LHR.. this was a nonstop flight... the rights were then transferred to I want to say Continental who does CLE - LGW now.

Flights were with A310s and the occasional 747. But this route did in fact exist.
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 3:43 am

Segment King, I stand corrected. But Pan Am must have lost a bundle on the route... Holy crap, I remember now, it was mainly an A310 route, and actually originated in Cleveland! It was when I was a travel agent, and it was pushed as the first direct link from Cleveland to the UK. I remember being confused by the claim as any airline that served Cleveland and London could have made almost the same claim, albeit Pan Am did actually use the same aircraft which stopped in Detroit on the way over. Sorry about that.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 4:12 am

Actually,

The DTW-LHR was transferred to DL who flew it DTW-LGW and then sold it to NW who operates it DTW-LGW.

The MIA-CDG was flight 134/135
The MIA-FRA was flight 106/107

They were not the same and generally in the late 80s MIA-FRA operated from E35 and MIA-CDG from E36

Finally, The Pan Am Express operation was actually Ransome Airways who was a fully owned subsidary and operated J31's J41's ATR42s and DHC-7-102's. When the IGS routes were shut down the planes were ferryed home and put in service in the JFK and MIA hubs and later after TWA bought Pan Am Express in the Palm Beach International Commuter Focus City... (TWA fed caribbean and Florida regional aircraft from PBI which used to have 3-5 L1011s to LGA and a handful of flights to JFK, MCO, and STL on mainline aircraft. TWE shutdown the focus city for TWE about 9 months later when it filed bankruptcy. Then TWE was shutdown about 18 months later and slots were sold to Trans States who grabbed the Jetscream leases and ditched the ATRs and DHC-7s out of JFK.
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 4:21 pm

cant the new Pan Am buy back rights to Karachi,Delhi,Mumbai,Riyadh and Nairobi and start operating there again?
.....up there with the best!
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2000 5:52 pm

The new Pan Am does not have the aircraft or resources to mount that type of operation.

As far a new enterant carriers into those markets...

KHI, NBO no problem. Petition the DOT and you will get them.

DEL, BOM not available. All bilateral frequencies are in use currently.

RUH not sure. I think it is tied up with TWA and Saudia but not sure.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Wed Aug 30, 2000 1:42 am

one other point, As I recall from an old Pan-Am annual report, 13 727's were assigned to IGS. Flew r/t FRA/TXL in early 1990. The GDR still maintained that the flights could not exceed Fl 12,000 as I recall. Was a bit bumpy at that low altitude. But, hey, you got a box lunch/dinner on every flight!
 
ryanair
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: Pan Am's International Routes

Wed Aug 30, 2000 1:54 am

Sorry folks for mucking up my last post....

Thanks Acvitale for the Express info, I only ask because as of the May 1 1991 Schedule (the last I have), although the bulk of the Berlin op is gone, there were still the following flights being operated with ATR42's, ie Berlin to:
Hamburg 7 Daily
Hanover 4 Daily
Nuremberg 3 Daily
Westerland Daily

Previously Nuremberg wasnot an Express destination and Hamburg had only 4 Express flights, the remainder (much greater than 7) mainline ops. Was this part of the gradual withdrawl agreed with LH? Thanks to anybody who can shed some light!

Also during the winter schedule the 135 did operate FRA-CDG-MIA as a continuation of the Delhi or Bombay route (dependent on the day) for a time, on Mondays, Tuesdays, Saturdays. Pan Am's transatlantic and inter european schedules often worked to different patterns on different days of the week.

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