LipeGIG
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TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:39 am

Finally !

TAM today confirm thru it's Sales and Marketing Vice-President that they will begin flights between Rio de Janeiro (GIG) and both Miami (MIA) and New York (JFK) on Summer 2008 (they mentioned June / July )

Rumors says that TAM is looking for some 763's and they could use them as a temporary measure to fly both routes while they are under negotiations for other planes. Also they expect to receive 4 77W to replace 3 M11's as well as 4 A332.

This will increase the importance of GIG on JJ network (and during the past 60 days JJ begin GIG-MAO, a 8th GIG-BSB, a 7th daily GIG-VIX, 5th daily GIG-SSA, 3rd daily GIG-CPQ, 4th daily GIG-CWB, 2nd daily GIG-BEL, a new service to IOS and more is expected). Nowadays GIG boards about 5,600 pax a day for JJ and it's third station in terms of O&D traffic (CGH is the leader with around 10,000 and GRU comes after with 6,600).
During 2007 GIG grows from 830,000 pax in January (high season) to 1,032,000 pax a month in November (low season with 49% increase over past year) expecting a major 25% increase over 2006 full-year result.

For the first time it's expected to reach more than 10,000,000 passengers a year.

Link:
http://www.mercadoeeventos.com.br/sc...?pStrLink=3,26,0,26692&IndSeguro=0

No info has been released about schedule but comments heard that MIA plans are for 14x weekly flights with daylight including stops in Brazilian Northeast (SSA, REC and FOR). JFK should begin with one plane like other JJ routes (JFK, MAD and MXP).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:42 am

That's great to hear!

Very good news for GIG and other destinations that will now have an option to avoid GRU! Which makes it good news for GRU also, since we'll be a little less busy at peak hours.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:39 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1):
Very good news for GIG and other destinations that will now have an option to avoid GRU! Which makes it good news for GRU also, since we'll be a little less busy at peak hours.

You're right. Demand in Brazil is growing at higher levels and all we need is an alternative. I wish they begin also some Northeast-MIA and JFK flights in order to allow leisure and some business travellers to reach places like REC, FOR, NAT and SSA easier.

The bilateral Brazil-US is also under discussions for a possible revision/upgrade.

Nice after 1 year where we just saw additional capacity to Europe and South America. It's almost impossible to book an economy ticket Brazil-US-Brazil in January for less than US$ 2,000, almost the same fare we can pay for a Business Ticket Brazil-Europe-Brazil (US$ 2,600 to US$ 3,000).

Seems that US-Brazil will see additional services also with RG (GRU-MIA and GRU-EWR) in the near future.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:50 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Seems that US-Brazil will see additional services also with RG (GRU-MIA and GRU-EWR) in the near future.

VRG is already in talks for counter space at MIA. They will operate out of Concourse J. Tentative date is looking like around the last week of March, with two daily flights to GRU.
a.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:33 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Rumors says that TAM is looking for some 763's and they could use them as a temporary measure to fly both routes while they are under negotiations for other planes. Also they expect to receive 4 77W to replace 3 M11's as well as 4 A332.

IF they expect to receive 4 773ER & 4 A332, why would they need the 767? Unless they are planing other int'l services like LAX, those 8 aircrafts should be enough to replace the MD-11 and start both MIA & JFK from GIG.

Anyways, these new services out of GIG are more than welcomed. GIG desperately needed more services to MIA and specially to JFK. Also I believe GIG-FRA could be launched by JJ or LH, although that would need a revision in the bilateral agreement.

Other than that, I believe GRU-LAX is the main market that needs to be restore by JJ. Perhaps, they could finally split the FOR-BEL-MAO-MIA flight.
 
laca773
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:00 am



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Other than that, I believe GRU-LAX is the main market that needs to be restore by JJ.

Is there any word as to when JJ might start LAX? 332, M11? Daily?
 
juventus
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:26 pm



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 5):
Is there any word as to when JJ might start LAX? 332, M11? Daily?

Yeah Felipe, why is TAM not flying to Los Angeles, the largest O&D airport in the world???
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:50 pm



Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
Yeah Felipe, why is TAM not flying to Los Angeles, the largest O&D airport in the world???

At least from Brazil is not that big in terms of O&D.
 
donzilasse
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:29 pm

Great news about GIG/MIA! Finally an alternative to GRU. As much as I hate to see some old 767,s on that route it might be a way to get by with it as long as AA also run their old 767,s to GIG. In the long run I do believe that TAM will have to be a little bit more consistant in their equipment so that their passangers can know what to expect while flying TAm.

Lasse
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:03 pm



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
IF they expect to receive 4 773ER & 4 A332, why would they need the 767? Unless they are planing other int'l services like LAX, those 8 aircrafts should be enough to replace the MD-11 and start both MIA & JFK from GIG.

The 77W's as we know will just replace the M11's. Concerning to A332, IMO they could use

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Also I believe GIG-FRA could be launched by JJ or LH, although that would need a revision in the bilateral agreement.

Agree 100%.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Other than that, I believe GRU-LAX is the main market that needs to be restore by JJ. Perhaps, they could finally split the FOR-BEL-MAO-MIA flight.

Agree, they already mentioned plans/studies for LAX, MEX, ZRH and JNB.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 5):
Is there any word as to when JJ might start LAX? 332, M11? Daily?

IMO, will begin also in 2008.

Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
Yeah Felipe, why is TAM not flying to Los Angeles, the largest O&D airport in the world???

Matter of time Juventus !

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 7):
At least from Brazil is not that big in terms of O&D.

There is demand for West Coast-Brazil, but nowadays is hard to say if it's so big or not as all pax travel thru IAH, MIA, DFW, ATL and other hubs. US DOT reports shows about 700 people using UA services to Brazil out of SFO which means the real demand is unclear but could be IMO, closer to 4,500 pax/month, enough to fill 80% of an Airbus A332.
Furthermore, i recall that some pax from Japan could take advantage of this.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:04 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Rumors says that TAM is looking for some 763's

I also heard a rumor TAM is getting 4 IL96-300 in 2009  Wink

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
This will increase the importance of GIG on JJ network

Interesting though is that Gol is already larger than TAM at GIG and will continue being so. If one counts the RG operation, TAM will have have real difficulty becoming the largest airline at GIG.

The final tab on US-Brazil frequencies on the Brazilian side is then TAM 5 MIA daily (2GRU, 2GIG, MAO) and 4 JFK daily (2GRU, 2GIG). TAM will have 55% of the frequencies allowed. RG serving MIA twice daily and possibly JFK twice daily leaves about 3.5 daily frequencies available under the current rules.
Stop pop up ads
 
Brasuca
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:02 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
VRG is already in talks for counter space at MIA. They will operate out of Concourse J. Tentative date is looking like around the last week of March, with two daily flights to GRU.

Thanks for the news! They say approximately in late March? So let's wait it for begin May.
International expansion in 2007 has been made towards Europe. Next year the fare war will reach Brazil - US.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Also I believe GIG-FRA could be launched by JJ or LH, although that would need a revision in the bilateral agreement.

Two points to think over...
1) VARIG is no longer selling GIG-FRA in their website. I understand thereupon as they're ultimately pulling out of the route;
2) No need to review bilateral for LH. There are three daily frequencies available for each country. LH uses two only.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
LH506
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:27 pm



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 11):
2) No need to review bilateral for LH. There are three daily frequencies available for each country. LH uses two only.

DE uses/will use 3+1 weekly 3 SSA, 1 REC. I am not sure if they already started REC. This means there is only 3 weekly left.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:30 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
Interesting though is that Gol is already larger than TAM at GIG and will continue being so. If one counts the RG operation, TAM will have have real difficulty becoming the largest airline at GIG.

I believe JJ is more insterested in increasing gradually their operations in GIG so they can offer better connections for both domestic & int'l pax flying through Rio de Janeiro. The commence of int'l services to MIA & JFK only proves this.


Now, the matter of who is bigger at GIG is not what TAM is after. Since G3/RG have more flights there, why are they pulling out of GIG-FRA???

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 11):
2) No need to review bilateral for LH. There are three daily frequencies available for each country. LH uses two only.

Considering the latest developments, I assume it would be easier to see JJ starting this flight than LH. Thus for a revision of the bilateral would be needed. Perhaps in 2009.
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:11 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
TAM 5 MIA daily (2GRU, 2GIG, MAO) and 4 JFK daily (2GRU, 2GIG).

MIA-GIG will be 2x; JFK-GIG will be 1x, with a redeye one way, a daylight the other.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
. TAM will have 55% of the frequencies allowed. RG serving MIA twice daily

Varig's plan is to be 4x daily to Miami by the end of 2008 - 2x GRU and 2x GIG (daily redeye and daylight to each).
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:08 pm



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
I also heard a rumor TAM is getting 4 IL96-300 in 2009

 rotfl 

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
Interesting though is that Gol is already larger than TAM at GIG and will continue being so. If one counts the RG operation, TAM will have have real difficulty becoming the largest airline at GIG.

Your are correct. In relative terms even Webjet is bigger in GIG than TAM! TAM attention to GIG is far from a real "focus."

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 11):
1) VARIG is no longer selling GIG-FRA in their website. I understand thereupon as they're ultimately pulling out of the route;

RG's FRA-GIG was a complete disaster. In contract, RG's operations in GRU remain good, and TAM's FRA-GRU is a resound success so far, with very high loads and yields.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:53 pm



Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 8):
Great news about GIG/MIA! Finally an alternative to GRU. As much as I hate to see some old 767,s on that route it might be a way to get by with it as long as AA also run their old 767,s to GIG

Hi Lasse ! Really nice to see some alternatives in the near future. Be in mind (and if they really get the 763's) that should be a temporary measure which means a better aircraft will be deployed later on.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 11):
) VARIG is no longer selling GIG-FRA in their website. I understand thereupon as they're ultimately pulling out of the route;

RG results on the international market are FAR from profit. On November as per ANAC official numbers RG load was 47% only better than Ocean Air (12% on their sole route). Considering they were flying three routes, and one of the routes in fact received the booked pax from GIG-FRA, i should say all routes could not produce profit.
Their fares on C (US$ 2,600 Round Trip), and the fact that it's easy to find out availability even for next day flight on deep Discount Business Class, give us a bad picture.
However, Gol is re-building RG international network and due to the delay to receive some additional 763's GIG-FRA flight has been postponed (i don't expect this flight to be resumed) and also some GRU-CDG-FCO and GRU-LHR has been cancelled during the peak (very) month of December.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
cmtehori
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:17 am



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 10):
I also heard a rumor TAM is getting 4 IL96-300 in 2009

 liar  It's the NW DC-10's they're getting  Big grin  Big grin  Big grin  laughing 

BTW, if they lease 767's, this is going to be a very weird fleet, a mix of a few remaining Fokkers (RR powered), A319/20/21 (CFM and IAE), 330-200's (4 PW all the rest CF6), MD-11's (does anybody know their engines?) and later the 77W which I believe is GE only. I'm wondering if the costs with maintenance and crew training would be worth for JJ.
727-200, 737-300/700/800, 757-200, 767-200/300/400, A310, A319, A320, A330, MD-88, MD-11, DC-8-73F, F100, ERJ145, CRJ200
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:39 am



Quoting Cmtehori (Reply 17):
BTW, if they lease 767's, this is going to be a very weird fleet, a mix of a few remaining Fokkers (RR powered),

Hori, all F100 will be returned by JJ this month and PZ during January 2008.
Also the M11's will be replaced by 77W's.

And even if they get the 763's, will also be replaced in the near future.

Maintenance costs are higher, but imagine the fact that they will increase services to the US while demand is at very high levels. And if they get a deal like M11 x 77W, would be great.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:11 am



Quoting Cmtehori (Reply 17):
MD-11's (does anybody know their engines?)

GE
 
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LTU932
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:02 am

This leads me to the question: if LH doesn't want to start up GIG, could this move mean that JJ is interested in eventually starting a daily GIG-FRA flight as well?
 
Brasuca
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:28 am

I must unsay my previous hypothesis of VARIG pulling out of GIG-FRA as they've just set up again sales of GIG-FRA-GIG. Here's the schedule for a daily operation with 763 as of FEB 17 2008:

GIG 01:20 - FRA 17:20
FRA 15:15 - 23:45 GIG
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
loalq
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:06 am



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 21):
GIG 01:20 - FRA 17:20

Really? Now that is a strange timing...

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 21):
FRA 15:15 - 23:45 GIG

And this is even worse. Arriving at GIG around midnight...not good...

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
This leads me to the question: if LH doesn't want to start up GIG, could this move mean that JJ is interested in eventually starting a daily GIG-FRA flight as well?

They are both welcome, but I would really like to see LH to GIG, MUC or FRA...
Rgds.
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:18 am



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 21):
I must unsay my previous hypothesis of VARIG pulling out of GIG-FRA as they've just set up again sales of GIG-FRA-GIG. Here's the schedule for a daily operation with 763 as of FEB 17 2008:

GIG 01:20 - FRA 17:20
FRA 15:15 - 23:45 GIG

It surprised me also, i won't expect they resume this flight. And a comment here... what a schedule... there's no way to use the FRA-GIG leg to any kind of connection unless you wait 6 hours which means.. No Thanks !

Quoting Loalq (Reply 22):
They are both welcome, but I would really like to see LH to GIG, MUC or FRA...
Rgds.

So do i, but it's something JJ x LH codeshare makes even harder to come true.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
This leads me to the question: if LH doesn't want to start up GIG, could this move mean that JJ is interested in eventually starting a daily GIG-FRA flight as well?

If RG drops the flight and the frequencies become unused, considering JJ is now even closer to join Star Alliance, i believe such flight become a real desire looking for how JJ is trying to develop GIG as a secondary hub.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
longhaul67
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:27 am



Quoting Loalq (Reply 22):
And this is even worse. Arriving at GIG around midnight...not good...

I agree. Looks like they are only focusing on O/D pax as this arrival time will not allow for onward connections
 
cmtehori
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:48 am



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 19):
GE

Thanks! BTW, I personally don´t believe that JJ would acquire/lease 767´s, it has nothing to do with its fleet!
Best,
Carlos
727-200, 737-300/700/800, 757-200, 767-200/300/400, A310, A319, A320, A330, MD-88, MD-11, DC-8-73F, F100, ERJ145, CRJ200
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:22 am



Quoting Cmtehori (Reply 25):

Thanks! BTW, I personally don´t believe that JJ would acquire/lease 767´s, it has nothing to do with its fleet!

Neither do MD11s and A340s. TAM doesn't care. They need quick capacity.
a.
 
greenair727
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:38 am



Quote:
Is there any word as to when JJ might start LAX? 332, M11? Daily?



Quote:
....why is TAM not flying to Los Angeles, the largest O&D airport in the world???

From what I understand, OceanAir is aiming for this market in '08 and already has route approval. Not to say that TAM couldn't compete, but if OceanAir indeed begins service on this old RG route, then it will undoubtedly be harder for both carriers to operate it.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:54 am



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 27):
From what I understand, OceanAir is aiming for this market in '08 and already has route approval. Not to say that TAM couldn't compete, but if OceanAir indeed begins service on this old RG route, then it will undoubtedly be harder for both carriers to operate it.

IIRC, Ocean Air was suppose to start flying between Brazil & Angola in the end of 2007. What happened????

BTW O6 plans for LAX would be a extension of their flight to MEX. On the other hand JJ would definitely fly non-stop from GRU. No hard competition here!!

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 21):
I must unsay my previous hypothesis of VARIG pulling out of GIG-FRA as they've just set up again sales of GIG-FRA-GIG. Here's the schedule for a daily operation with 763 as of FEB 17 2008:

GIG 01:20 - FRA 17:20
FRA 15:15 - 23:45 GIG

Looks like G3 GOL is willing to waste its $$ in RG's int'l adventure. From what LIPGIG posted, none of their European flights make a profit so far.... GRU-FRA was probably the best performing one, but noe that JJ has entered the market I wonder how low would RG load factor go. Besides, CDG & LHR have been operating with crazy schedules. Let's not forget RG will commence DOUBLE daily flight to MAD. That's a lot of cash to go under the sink!!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:55 am



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 28):
BTW O6 plans for LAX would be a extension of their flight to MEX.

What a waste. For what reason? To pick-up another ten passengers?

They won't get 5th freedom. No 5th freedom is allowed on USA-Mexico anymore.
a.
 
Brasuca
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:21 pm



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 28):
Looks like G3 GOL is willing to waste its $$ in RG's int'l adventure. From what LIPGIG posted, none of their European flights make a profit so far.... GRU-FRA was probably the best performing one, but noe that JJ has entered the market I wonder how low would RG load factor go. Besides, CDG & LHR have been operating with crazy schedules. Let's not forget RG will commence DOUBLE daily flight to MAD. That's a lot of cash to go under the sink!!!

I agree with you that RG's GIG-FRA-GIG purpose is still unclear due to this offered product oddness.
Neither do I agree with some VARIG strategies, but it there must be reasons behind it.
VARIG-GOL CEO reckons VARIG will fly under break-even until later next year and there are priority tasks to accomplish before it. He acknowledged too it is still missing domestic connections in their int'l Hub GRU - that's why they're (and will be) flying with lower loads still for some time on. So I believe everything is under control despite some poor results.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:31 pm



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 30):
I agree with you that RG's GIG-FRA-GIG purpose is still unclear due to this offered product oddness.
Neither do I agree with some VARIG strategies, but it there must be reasons behind it.
VARIG-GOL CEO reckons VARIG will fly under break-even until later next year and there are priority tasks to accomplish before it. He acknowledged too it is still missing domestic connections in their int'l Hub GRU - that's why they're (and will be) flying with lower loads still for some time on. So I believe everything is under control despite some poor results.

This is the price they are willing to pay! Go figure!! Everybody knows that RG/GOL is only flying GIG-FRA to hold the slots. The restart in February, as indicated, only proves it. RG pax lack connections in Brazil, GOL-RG codeshare still not effective, frequent flyer pax can't use their miles anywhere besides RG, and so on...

I really don't see much of bright future for GOL's int'l aspirations, at least not in the long run.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:09 am



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 27):
From what I understand, OceanAir is aiming for this market in '08 and already has route approval. Not to say that TAM couldn't compete, but if OceanAir indeed begins service on this old RG route, then it will undoubtedly be harder for both carriers to operate it.

Ocean Air needs to invest more in marketing and need to focus on higher demand routes. LAX is a good alternative, but they do not provide customers with connections on both sides.

To understand, after three months of operations ANAC reports shows Ocean Air international load factor (on it's single route to MEX) of 12% on November, 9% on October and 4% (IIRC) on September.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 30):
I agree with you that RG's GIG-FRA-GIG purpose is still unclear due to this offered product oddness.
Neither do I agree with some VARIG strategies, but it there must be reasons behind it.
VARIG-GOL CEO reckons VARIG will fly under break-even until later next year and there are priority tasks to accomplish before it. He acknowledged too it is still missing domestic connections in their int'l Hub GRU - that's why they're (and will be) flying with lower loads still for some time on. So I believe everything is under control despite some poor results.

Agree, my only additional comment is that their slots are terrible nowadays (LHR at 0100, MAD at 0130) and with Government decision to not build the 3rd runway, i don't think GRU will be able to increase the slots for domestic flights between 19:00 and 0:00.
Lets wait.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
Posts: 1619
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:26 am



Quoting Cmtehori (Reply 25):
Thanks! BTW, I personally don´t believe that JJ would acquire/lease 767´s, it has nothing to do with its fleet!
Best,
Carlos

This is just my imagination then:
https://www.elancers.net/vagas/e_mostra_vaga.asp?id=258257

Why would they need 168 B767 FAs?

Check here for all the positions:
https://www.elancers.net/frames/tam/frame_geral.asp
 
beeweel15
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:16 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Also they expect to receive 4 77W to replace 3 M11's as well as 4 A332.

Does anyone know who owns the MD11's that TAM is leasing.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:52 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
they will begin flights between Rio de Janeiro (GIG) and both Miami (MIA) and New York (JFK) on Summer 2008

JJ is code-sharing these flights with UA for USA-Brazil:
MIA-GRU
MIA-GRU-GIG
JFK-GRU
JFK-GRU-GIG
MIA-SSA
MIA-MAO-BEL-FOR
They will likely follow the same pattern with UA in the new routes: GIG-MIA and GIG-JFK, as well as the possible JJ GRU-LAX, in the future.




.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
considering JJ is now even closer to join Star Alliance

I realize JJ is getting pacts with carriers involved in the three groups: Star Alliance, OneWorld and SkyTeam.
JJ should be aiming to establish isolated interline agreements or becomes a full Star Alliance member instead.
Further information will be appreciated.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
C010T3
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:02 am



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 35):
I realize JJ is getting pacts with carriers involved in the three groups: Star Alliance, OneWorld and SkyTeam.
JJ should be aiming to establish isolated interline agreements or becomes a full Star Alliance member instead.
Further information will be appreciated.

The only new agreement with a carrier not from Star Alliance was with LAN. Despite having an agreement with AF, JJ is closing a new one with LH. AF has already given signals that it will terminate the agreement once JJ starts cooperating with LH. I guess the problem is solved. TAM's new president has stated that they intend joining an alliance next year. There's no doubt about which one. JJ will most certainly join Star. It is just a question of time.
 
dellatorre
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Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:57 am



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
The only new agreement with a carrier not from Star Alliance was with LAN. Despite having an agreement with AF, JJ is closing a new one with LH. AF has already given signals that it will terminate the agreement once JJ starts cooperating with LH. I guess the problem is solved. TAM's new president has stated that they intend joining an alliance next year. There's no doubt about which one. JJ will most certainly join Star. It is just a question of time.

I think it's time JJ say goodbye AF!!! The current code-share only offer JJ pax limited destinations within France and doesn't include the Brazil-France segment. Besides connections through FRA will offer passengers much better options when flying both West & Eastern Europe, MIddle East, Asia, India. The only downfall is Africa.
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:08 pm



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 37):
I think it's time JJ say goodbye AF!!! The current code-share only offer JJ pax limited destinations within France and doesn't include the Brazil-France segment. Besides connections through FRA will offer passengers much better options when flying both West & Eastern Europe, MIddle East, Asia, India. The only downfall is Africa.

Africa with SA will be enough IMO.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
The only new agreement with a carrier not from Star Alliance was with LAN. Despite having an agreement with AF, JJ is closing a new one with LH

Right, and i expect one pair of 77W could be used in order to replace 2 flights to CDG with a single one looking for further opportunities with LH.

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 34):
Does anyone know who owns the MD11's that TAM is leasing.

AFAIK from Boeing itself. They have been sold by Varig in 2001 on sale-lease-back deal with Boeing in order to reduce their debt. That's why Boeing managed to offer an incredible deal to TAM. They already sold them to Aeroflot to be delivered during mid-2008.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
cmtehori
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:53 pm

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:21 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
Hori, all F100 will be returned by JJ this month and PZ during January 2008.

Lipe, as always thank you for your feedback. Will PZ fly A320's?

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
This is just my imagination then:
https://www.elancers.net/vagas/e_mostra_vaga.asp?id=258257

Why would they need 168 B767 FAs?

Wow, now I believe, it is for real! Tks!
727-200, 737-300/700/800, 757-200, 767-200/300/400, A310, A319, A320, A330, MD-88, MD-11, DC-8-73F, F100, ERJ145, CRJ200
 
C010T3
Posts: 1619
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:42 am



Quoting Cmtehori (Reply 39):

Wow, now I believe, it is for real! Tks

No problem!
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:31 am



Quoting Juventus (Reply 6):
Yeah Felipe, why is TAM not flying to Los Angeles, the largest O&D airport in the world???



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 7):
At least from Brazil is not that big in terms of O&D.



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Other than that, I believe GRU-LAX is the main market that needs to be restore by JJ

It's not O/D really, it the fact that yields suck. LAX-Brazil makes a whole lot of sense if it's part of a direct service to Asia, and with the transit Visa issue and the immigration/customs mess that exists for transiting the United States I'd be hard pressed to find a carrier that would want to launch services VIA the United States.

It makes more sense to route passengers via major hubs (MEX, DFW, IAH, MIA, ATL) than to fly it nonstop. That said, someone is going to launch this route and not make money. I'm wondering who it'll be.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24594
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:45 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 41):
It's not O/D really, it the fact that yields suck. LAX-Brazil makes a whole lot of sense if it's part of a direct service to Asia, and with the transit Visa issue and the immigration/customs mess that exists for transiting the United States I'd be hard pressed to find a carrier that would want to launch services VIA the United States.

Exactly. One only need to look at how Varig's performance at LAX went down the drain after the Japan tag-ons ended. There is no need for TAM or anybody else to fly in such a low-yielding market.

Nonetheless, TAM is aggressive, and it would not shock me if they tried it out.
a.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:40 am



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 41):
LAX-Brazil makes a whole lot of sense if it's part of a direct service to Asia

Based on the current business relationship between JJ and UA, it would be interesting if UA will establish code-share cooperation with JJ in the future, for flights heading to Asia from LAX.
Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:45 pm



Quoting Cmtehori (Reply 39):
Lipe, as always thank you for your feedback. Will PZ fly A320's?

In fact there's one A320 already flying PZ flights. Will be two by January 8, 2008.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Exactly. One only need to look at how Varig's performance at LAX went down the drain after the Japan tag-ons ended. There is no need for TAM or anybody else to fly in such a low-yielding market.

Mark, the market changed a lot since 2005. I saw several agreements between US corporations with HQ in California and West Coast with Brazilian ones. Also, focus will be not only Asia as in the past. I believe they could research the market and will be clear that a 3 to 4 weekly flights works fine with reasonable yields.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
TP727
Posts: 95
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RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:24 pm



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 31):
GOL-RG codeshare still not effective, frequent flyer pax can't use their miles anywhere besides RG

Hello everyone,

Are there any legal reason for G3/RG not codeshare? Have they asked for CADE authorization (as JJ/RG did when they operated a codeshare agreement)? RG operating the way it is tiday is a wast of money, and i don´t see G3 replacing FRB with all their abilities to loose money.

Cheers,

Gilson
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:53 pm



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 44):
Mark, the market changed a lot since 2005. I saw several agreements between US corporations with HQ in California and West Coast with Brazilian ones. Also, focus will be not only Asia as in the past. I believe they could research the market and will be clear that a 3 to 4 weekly flights works fine with reasonable yields.

I believe CA - Brazil market is often underestimaded, demand for non-stop flights is big as it has ever been, including business pax. I recently flew AA LAX-MIA-GIG and LAX-MIA leg was packed with paxs bound to Brazil....and also other Latin American destinations such as EZE, SCL, VVI.

Also, I know of many people, especially from CA that end up not coming down to Brazil because they can't take a non-stop flight. Now with JJ-UA partnership I think the logical JJ expansion in US is LAX.

Rgs,

Neo
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting Neo (Reply 46):
I believe CA - Brazil market is often underestimaded, demand for non-stop flights is big as it has ever been, including business pax. I recently flew AA LAX-MIA-gig and LAX-MIA leg was packed with paxs bound to Brazil....and also other Latin American destinations such as EZE, SCL, VVI.

You're right. The problem is that California-Brazil and also SEA, is a market divided between several hubs (ATL, DFW, IAH, MIA) and airlines. The basic idea for each one is that the market is not so huge, but looking for all of them together, there's enough to fill more than a single plane. Also, looking for EZE and MVD, it makes even bigger the potential demand.

Quoting Tp727 (Reply 45):
Are there any legal reason for G3/RG not codeshare?

Yes, and as per your comment, they need CADE to approve the acquisition in order to establish a code-share agreement.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: TAM To Fly GIG-MIA & GIG-JFK On S08 (finally!)

Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:46 am



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 47):
You're right. The problem is that California-Brazil and also SEA, is a market divided between several hubs (ATL, DFW, IAH, MIA) and airlines. The basic idea for each one is that the market is not so huge, but looking for all of them together, there's enough to fill more than a single plane. Also, looking for EZE and MVD, it makes even bigger the potential demand.

Felipe, that's right, but even though the market is split like that a non-stop LAX-GRU would offer more convenient connections to CA (SAN, PSP, FAT, SFO, OAK, SMF, LAS) as pax could take a quick one hour flight to connect to Brazil, instead spending near 3 hrs in a flight to DFW and IAH at best. For PDX and SEA pax, this flight wouldn't make much difference, but CA itself captures probably 80% of West Coast market anyhow, so...

From personal experice, I would never fly LAX-MIA-GIG again.. it is a very exhausting flight, not to mention the risk of losing you connection and having to catch a flight the next day, if your flight is late.

Rgs,

Neo