PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:02 am

According to http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=23684 (Dutch only) KLM is going to charge pax 50 Euro per one-way flight if they want to sit on a row that has only 2 seats in Economy Class.
The 744 and 74M have a large set of these two-seat rows in the front cabin due to the position of the galley, and some in the back due to the curvature of the cabin.
The M11 has only 2 blocks of 2 seats, due to exits or cabin shape.
The 772 has a few sets of 2-seat-rows, in the front of the Y cabin and in the back due to the curvature of the cabin.
Note that these seats can be reserved 30 hours prior to departure via the KLM website and only paid with credit-card during online check in.
The seats have no additional pitch, nor a favorable position in the aircraft (they can be near the galley or lavs), the only "advantage" is that there is no-one sitting next to your if your travel as a couple.

See http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/KLM/ for the applicable rows.

I'd be surprised if KLM is able to pre-sell any of those seats, as we're talking 100 Euro per one-way leg, that's a lot.

[Edited 2007-12-12 03:06:16]
 
PlunaCRJ
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:05 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:13 am

I agree that at 100 Euro per roundtrip these seats won´t see a lot of success. They might be popular between
honey-moon goers, though
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:27 am



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 1):
They might be popular between
honey-moon goers, though

Let's face it, for 200 Euros extra a whole lot of other carriers come into view that offer a superior product to KL in Y and don''t charge for this non-sense. LH and AF come to mind, but also smaller ones like SK, IB. And they operate a lot of Airbus wide-bodies with its perfect 2-4-2 seating config, so you end up together anyway.

Next step in KLM's cabin frenzy is the introduction of 3-4-3 on the 77W next year. One has to wonder what comes after that...
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:33 am

I wonder what the frequent flyers will say, seeing that they already get less and less of a product on KL. Maybe swicht over to AF completely...
Sorry, but KL's business plan is becoming more absurd by the day IMHO, especially compared to the other part of the AF/KL group.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:37 am



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 3):
I wonder what the frequent flyers will say, seeing that they already get less and less of a product on KL. Maybe swicht over to AF completely...

It has to be noted that Flying Blue Gold and Platinum Elite Plus members are exempted from both the 50 Euro exit-row "fee" and the 50 Euro 2-seater "fee". The same is true for other SkyTeam equivalent Elite Plus members.
 
User avatar
SKAirbus
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:38 am



Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter):
I'd be surprised if KLM is able to pre-sell any of those seats, as we're talking 100 Euro per one-way leg, that's a lot.

Yet another airline going down the low cost carrier route... How incredibly cheap of KLM! I mean if these seats are near a galley or toilets it is completely unrealistic to think that people will pay for these seats... I have never been impressed by KLM's standard of service and now i'm definately sure not to fly with them again.
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:39 am

Are they seroius? There are hardly any "tweezitters" in any of the aircraft mentioned. The only exception is the full-pax Boeing 747-400 aft section where there are 20 seats in pairs (unless KLM has the nerve to ask for 50 EUR for the "pleasure" of having a non-window/aisle "tweezitter"-seat next to the galley in the middle block on the B744/74M).

[Edited 2007-12-12 03:40:19]
 
PlunaCRJ
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:05 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:40 am

I don´t get it - if the customer isn´t interested in the row that only has two seats, they are free to seat somewhere else in the plane and forget about the whole thing.

And about the 3-4-3 seating, doesn´t EK has it? I believe pax are still happily flying EK even with 3-4-3 in the 777.
 
GoAibusGo
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:01 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 2):
Next step in KLM's cabin frenzy is the introduction of 3-4-3 on the 77W next year. One has to wonder what comes after that...

It looks like KLM will become like the leisure (low frills) arm of AF/KL group and Air France will be the premium product of the group.

[Edited 2007-12-12 03:45:25]
 
FFlyer
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2001 6:46 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:48 am

I was just recently sitting in that forward 2-seat section of a 74M, the first row window seat just after the L1 door. The best economy seat in the house, in my mind. The lady in the HEL check-in changed my seat to that one from something in the rear of the plane. Yes, I would have paid $50 extra for it, but only for that particular row.
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 6):
The only exception is the full-pax Boeing 747-400 aft section where there are 20 seats in pairs (unless KLM has the nerve to ask for 50 EUR for the "pleasure" of having a non-window/aisle "tweezitter"-seat next to the galley in the middle block on the B744/74M).

KLM has the nerves. If you don't pay, you will be able to choose any other seat during online check-in. It is choice. Do I think it's worth it? Not really. But do I think it is abnormal? No. If those seats have a (perceived) added value, then why not charge for them? You are not forced to fly KLM and people that do so are given the choice to pay more for a better seat, nothing wrong with that. KLM is not claiming those seats are "better", they just offer the possibility to pre-reserve those much-asked-for-seats for 50 Euro each. If people want to pay for that, it's fine with me.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 7):
I don´t get it - if the customer isn´t interested in the row that only has two seats, they are free to seat somewhere else in the plane and forget about the whole thing.

Exactly. KLM is not forcing anyone to choose these seats. And as stated, it's a very small number of seats on every plane anyway.

Quoting GoAibusGo (Reply 8):
It looks like KLM will become like leisure (low frills) arm of AF/KL group and Air France will be the premium product of the group.

No. But KLM is very serious about staying in business and proving to Paris they're moneymakers, best to be left alone. KLM is always searching for inventive ways to generate extra revenue. No-one is ever forced to fly KLM, and KLM clearly has found a very solid proposition in the airline business. It's not the best there is, it's generally not the most expensive either. So as long as pax judge KLM as "value for money" and "you get what you pay for" I think this is fine.
KLM will never be a low-cost airline or offer sub-standard service levels (like pay for your meal or buy luggage allowance) and is investing in fitting it's Y cabins with PTV for example. KLM just realizes that you can't please everyone at the some time and choices have to be made. It's product is becoming "simpler", I agree, but we all have the choice to fly our preferred carriers, so why complain?
I'd rather see a healthy KLM with 3-4-3 abreast in the 77W than having some Swissair or Sabena (Alitalia, SK, etc) debacle. Aer Lingus has made a similar daring choice, they did what's best for them and not what's "expected" by some whining travelers.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 5):
I have never been impressed by KLM's standard of service and now i'm definately sure not to fly with them again.

Off course there is a lot to be improved on the KLM Y product, but you are the one that makes that choice. You are free to choose any other carrier. Beforehand, you were never guaranteed a "two-seater" or "exit-row", so I think KLM is very fair with these practices, it's not hidden somewhere between the lines but can be found on their website. KLM has an excellent proposition to many travelers and their concept seems to work for them and a lot of people that fly KLM. Of course there are better carriers, and I can understand you care about that, but there are as many people that want to get from A to B in an affordable way.

[Edited 2007-12-12 04:01:30]
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:04 pm

Now what will happen if by the time I get to check in without a reserved seat , only available seats are those that require the surcharge. Will I have to pay?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:07 pm

Hi!

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 5):
I have never been impressed by KLM's standard of service and now i'm definately sure not to fly with them again.

Well, I don't have nothing to complain about KL..Infact I think they offer a similar product to any other european airline, of course nothing to be compared with the asian/middle eastern airlines but...the fact is that if I need to get anywhere in the world KL can give me good connections and good prices!!!
Another point is we shouldn't say "never" about flying the airlines...even if I was mad with KL and one day they had an excelent fare to a place I was going, and if the plane was an MD11??? I think I "would forgive" KL and fly with them again!
Now I have a question, when I flew SWISS MD11 the Economy configuration they had was 3-4-2, I see that KL have 3-3-3 I wonder what's best...what do you think?
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:08 pm



Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 11):
Now what will happen if by the time I get to check in without a reserved seat , only available seats are those that require the surcharge. Will I have to pay?

No. If loads require those seats to be taken, they are assigned following normal procedures.
So, those two-seaters can be assigned for free at check-in desks if there are no other seats available. KLM is charging 50 Euro for the right to pre-reserve those seats during online check-in, so you can be sure you will get these seats and don't have to show up at the airport 5 hours in advance and bribe the check-in staff Big grin
If there is an equipment change, or for any other reason you were forced to take another seat, KLM will refund the money you paid during online check-in. This is also the reason why it can be only done online and with a creditcard (and not at the check-in counter at the airport).
 
Ikarus2006
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:10 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:09 pm

If the extra would be charged for better pitch or better IFE or seat width, I would agree. The extra charged for sitting in a two seat row sounds a bit odd.

If I pay an extra I want a clearly identifiable added value - the fact KL says a two seat row is an added value in itself is something very open to discussion and evaluation, in my humble opinion. And beside this, 100 Euro for a return?

What is next? I will have to pay more to have an aisle seat?
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm



Quoting CV990 (Reply 12):
Now I have a question, when I flew SWISS MD11 the Economy configuration they had was 3-4-2, I see that KL have 3-3-3 I wonder what's best...what do you think?

KLM had 3-4-2 and opted for 3-3-3 because of the perceived benefit for pax and to enable the M11 Y cabin for PTV fitting. I think having the same number of devices per PTV control-unit keeps costs lower. I might be wrong though.
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:13 pm



Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 14):
What is next? I will have to pay more to have an aisle seat?

Don't give KLM ideas  Wink
Fortunately, there are too many aisle seats to make this work. You'd have a very good chance of getting an aisle seat but just showing up late at the check-in at the airport and get an aisle seat for free. KLM surely doesn't want to stimulate people to arrive late at check-in, and hence I don't think we'll ever see such drastic measures.
 
AUA747
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:41 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:14 pm



Quoting GoAibusGo (Reply 8):
It looks like KLM will become like the leisure (low frills) arm of AF/KL group and Air France will be the premium product of the group.

Agree

Its a pitty KLM is taking that road. I don't mind they charging for the "preferred" seats, but they definitely need to improve their product in economy. It wouldn't surprise me the next that KL will take is to charge for alcohol beverages.
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:17 pm

Hi PHKLM!

Thanks a lot for your answer, appreciated!!!  thumbsup 
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3671
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:18 pm



Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 11):
Now what will happen if by the time I get to check in without a reserved seat , only available seats are those that require the surcharge. Will I have to pay?

Of course they can't force you to do that, so no. You only have to pay if you specifically want and choose these 'special' seats over the others. Same like UK charters where you have to pay a surcharge for seat reservations, but as not many people do that, you can still get preferable seats like windows or aisles without surcharge.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 12):
they had was 3-4-2, I see that KL have 3-3-3 I wonder what's best...what do you think?

The Swiss/Swissair seating arrangement is innovative, as it's the best of both worlds; avoiding the 2-5-2 seat of hell in the middle, and also the opportunity to sit near a window and aisle if you travel with three persons, basically offering choices for any preference; couples can sit together without strangers, families of 3 and 4 can sit together etc. The only drawback is that the cabin isn't symmetric, even in weight/trim that has to be counter balanced.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:22 pm



Quoting AUA747 (Reply 17):
Its a pitty KLM is taking that road. I don't mind they charging for the "preferred" seats, but they definitely need to improve their product in economy. It wouldn't surprise me the next that KL will take is to charge for alcohol beverages.

Sure it's a pity. But it makes business sense. KLM is really making very rational decisions that are not lead by emotions or pride. KLM proved over the past years it is looking at these issues very sober and focused.
KLM has drawn a core strategy and is following that strategy, it focuses on slightly-lower yielding pax that connect thru the attractive AMS hub. It prefers fleet optimization above schedule-optimization (short turn-arounds) and other things that can be perceived as a "deteriorating" product. But this chosen strategy works for KLM.
Please look at the examples of other airlines in Europe, once they focused on a particular strategy results started to improve drastically. You can't please everyone. Sure, I'd love to fly in a 2-3-2 Y seat with 40 inch pitch on a 772 with AVOD PTV and have 3 course meals and pay less than an average other carrier, but I think we'll see the end of KLM sooner than later with such a product. It is about making choices, like Finnair did, like Aer Lingus did, like SWISS did, like BMI did. These choices are sometimes leading to pax choosing other carriers, but that's fine, because overall they work and the bottom line is rock solid.
 
SKA380
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:46 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:23 pm

Is it just me, or is KLM looking more and more like a low cost carrier?
You can't get away from the fact that this is a very typical low cost thing to do.

Yes, PHKLM, you do have a point that its up to anyone to choose to pay for this. But what happens on a fully booked flight?? There you might have a couple who has payed 100 euros for their seat, while the couple sitting in front of them has gotten the seats for free, simply because it was the only available seats on the aircraft.. This is not a very fair way to treat your customers, is it ?

I used to fly KLM on almost all my trips, but never again after i was taken away my emg. exit seat that i had booked online, just because i didn't wanna pay 50 euros for it. And it was given for free to some random passengers after boarding, since they are required to have people sitting there.
Witch is exactly why i have moved my business elsewhere. My next 2 trips to asia are booked with Finnair and LH, both of with i can choose whatever seat i want free of charge.  Smile
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 21):
Is it just me, or is KLM looking more and more like a low cost carrier?
You can't get away from the fact that this is a very typical low cost thing to do.

KLM is not turning into a LCC. I can't get away from the fact this is thinking "out of the box" that is mainly only done at other LCC's, true. A lot of airlines have seats they give away to FF Elite pax, KLM enables non-Elites to buy these seats. Fair choice, isn't it?

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 21):
This is not a very fair way to treat your customers, is it ?

Yes. Because the couple that paid 100 Euros was well aware of the fact they had the choice not to pay that money and try their luck at the airport. They were never forced to do so. At numerous airlines around the world on every flight Elite members are seated in a middle seat while first-timers are seated at the exit rows. It's inevitable and happens every day. You can be upset about this, but think about it rationally. It doesn't make sense. If you want to pay 100 Euro to get those seats you want, your economic utility doesn't go down when other people get those seats for free. I mean, even if the pax next to me was given 10.000 Euros by KLM to take that flight, my 600 Euro ticket wasn't going to be less valuable at once. I paid that money to get from A to B, and at the time of purchase I found it reasonable. Makes no sense to complain about it. KLM is very open about giving out those seats for free: it happens when required. So it's no surprises and a fair treatment to pax.

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 21):
My next 2 trips to asia are booked with Finnair and LH, both of with i can choose whatever seat i want free of charge.

Nice example. AY has 3-4-3 abreast in the M11 and LH no PTV in Y. No to flame them, but these airlines have made choices as well that work for them. AY has realized it is better of serving tourists on routes to Asia in 10 abreast on the M11, that is what makes money for them! Good decision AY. No matter how much you can hate 10 abreast in the M11, it works for Finnair. LH has no PTV in Y, and for a long time that worked for them! Kudos to LH for saving much money, while still offering an attractive product that worked for them. See my point?

[Edited 2007-12-12 04:41:35]
 
User avatar
SKAirbus
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:46 pm



Quoting SKA380 (Reply 21):
Is it just me, or is KLM looking more and more like a low cost carrier?

My sentiment exactly... I mean KLM offers a substandard economy and business product on european and intercontinental flights... I would normally choose British Airways if i can but of course that isnt the point of this thread...

A legacy carrier such as KLM shouldn't be charging for these seats... I can understand that an airline like Sterling do that because they are low cost carriers.. I can't think of any other "traditional" carrier in Europe that does this...

Give me BA any day... Nice food and good service.. also nice new leather seats with fully adjustable headreast in Economy on European flights! Anyone else seen them??

Although for Asian flights i would always choose SIA.
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
longhaul67
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:17 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:47 pm

I fly on KL's 74M to BKK on a regular basis. But I have decided to leave KL from now due to their out-dated product. Especially I find the economy seats uncomfortable. Their business product is mediocre at best compared to the competition. There is no way I would pay a cent extra for a 2-seater. They really need new planes to upgrade their product - fast!
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:52 pm



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
KLM has the nerves. If you don't pay, you will be able to choose any other seat during online check-in. It is choice. Do I think it's worth it? Not really. But do I think it is abnormal? No. If those seats have a (perceived) added value, then why not charge for them? You are not forced to fly KLM and people that do so are given the choice to pay more for a better seat, nothing wrong with that. KLM is not claiming those seats are "better", they just offer the possibility to pre-reserve those much-asked-for-seats for 50 Euro each. If people want to pay for that, it's fine with me.

I see the point if we are talking about a two-seat row "window/aisle". However, in the B744 half of the two seat rows are in the middle block, with one seat being an aisle seat and the other being next to galley wall. Maybe for some reason some people see these seats next to the wall as "added value" and they are in "high-demand", but from my point of view the value of these two seat rows is quite different from the value of those next to the windows. So it will all boil down to the question of how transparent the reservation process is. Not everybody is aware of websites like seatguru.com...
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:57 pm



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 7):
And about the 3-4-3 seating, doesn´t EK has it? I believe pax are still happily flying EK even with 3-4-3 in the 777.

Yes, but EK offers extra seat pitch, IIRC 34", KL won't. It'll be the standard 31" pitch most likely.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 23):
I mean KLM offers a substandard economy

Actually, IMHO it is a perfectly standard product by european standards.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3671
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:59 pm



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 23):
I mean KLM offers a substandard economy and business product on european and intercontinental flights... I

What exactly makes KLM substandard? Unlike SAS, KLM has nice sandwiches and drinks incl alcohol on European flights. Intercontinental flights are standard meal wise, better then most US carriers, Iberia and Finnair and about the same level as Lufthansa etc. PTV or not is about 50/50 chance now. Not that I am a KLM advocate, I hate their 10 abreast decision and this bull about seat allocations but labelling them as substandard is unjustified, maybe standard, in the middle region.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
Qatara340
Posts: 1565
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 2:07 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:29 pm

One word: CHEAP

filler
filler
flller
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:13 pm



Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 28):
One word: CHEAP

Or smart. Time will tell.
Fortunately, there are more important things in life  twocents 
 
sh0rtybr0wn
Posts: 373
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:16 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:46 pm

So Cheap. I've sat in one of those 2 seat rows and it wasnt worth any extra money.

Airlines could get more creative than that. Wait until you have pay to buy food and water on longhaul flights, or pay by the minute for IFE.
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:25 pm

On the 744, I do like those pairs of seats in the front of Y along the galley wall--in addition to not having to sit next to a stranger when traveling as a couple, that part of the cabin has a very quiet and private feel. That said, however, I certainly wouldn't pay 50 euros for the privilege!
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
trinxat
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:54 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:39 pm



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
KLM is always searching for inventive ways to generate extra revenue

Yes, but going the way of an LCC, c'mon no serious airline with a bit of self pride does such things. You are completely free to defend "your" airline and the business case they have built, which I have no doubt it is very sensible, knowing how efficient our dutch colleagues are on those things. But from a passenger experience the way they are going is cheap, mean, etc. there is a word in spanish that absolutely defines it: "cutre" (sorry I can't think of any translation)

and an average passenger is not interested in business models, strategies, etc. what he sees is not to his liking and most of the times he'll choose another airline

I am sure most dutch will use KLM anyway like it or not. But don't use this factor as a success indicator, they do not have many other choices out of AMS

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 9):
I was just recently sitting in that forward 2-seat section of a 74M, the first row window seat just after the L1 door. The best economy seat in the house, in my mind.

I flew once AMS-JFK on that same row, only good in the extra legroom, but besides, the galley is really noisy during the whole flight, and the wall is too far away from the seat to be able to lie against it. When you pay a premium fee you also have higher expectations, which are not met at all. I really would feel cheated to find myself in there having payed extra.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
KLM will never be a low-cost airline or offer sub-standard service levels

Well, they are doing their best to get close to it

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 27):
What exactly makes KLM substandard?

Well just to give a couple examples, in europe select, they do not keep the middle seat free like most of their competitors. Once I was sentenced to a middle seat in C from my previous comfy aisle seat in Y (they called it an "upgrade"  crazy 

Also their "new" business seats in C longhaul are crap compared to the cradle seats that their competitors are marketing. They are old-fashioned, uncomfortable and room is scarce.

I just flew to Japan and back on two 772, KL and JAL, and I noticed that JAL has 4 rows of C seats on the front section of the aircraft, while KL has managed to fit 5 rows in that same space.... no comment.....

Anyway you look at it, the product that KL offers at this moment can't match or even be at level with what LH, BA, AF, etc. are offering.
 
User avatar
SKAirbus
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:51 pm



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 27):
Unlike SAS, KLM has nice sandwiches and drinks incl alcohol on European flights.

If you are trying to throw SAS at me it isnt working because i never used it as an example... But i have flown on KLM many times because it was the cheapest way to get from the UK to TRD before Norwegian started flying direct from STN... I only ever received dried sandwiches and a number of the flights didn't offer alcohol...

But compared to British Airways KLM's products in all classes aren't very impressive... BA Euro Traveller is probably the best in Europe...

Oh well.. the point of this threat was discussing the extra charges which are ridiculous...
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
sk601
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:59 pm

In general I agree with what PHKLM said about this subject. Many of you seem to think it's a ridiculous concept. Well, the passengers are the once who will decide if this concept is a success or not!

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 5):
I mean if these seats are near a galley or toilets it is completely unrealistic to think that people will pay for these seats...

Currently, or better-before the introduction of the extra fee, those seats were very popular and often taken first.

Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 14):
The extra charged for sitting in a two seat row sounds a bit odd.

See above, those seats ARE very popular.

Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 14):
What is next? I will have to pay more to have an aisle seat?

Well, KL's beloved partner NW has the concept called "seat choice" (KL's product is just a copy of that) and most seats on domestic flights are "seat choice" seats.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 23):
I mean KLM offers a substandard economy and business product on european and intercontinental flights...

To a certain extent, I agree, but KL must do something right. Sales/profit are higher every quarter....


Personally, I will never pay the extra Eur 50,- (per person/one way) for the "2-seater". I do think that the Eur 50,- is worth it for the exit row seat. If the 2-seat fee was Eur10 or maybe Eur15 I certainly will think about it.

Airlines are finding a way to gain more $$$ or Euros in this highly competitive business. A few years ago, some of the legacy airlines started to charge for food/drinks on short flights (IB/SK/OS). I remember a discussion just like this one. That it is stupid/ridiculous/"how dare they" etc etc. Nowadays people are used to it and surprised if food/drinks are free.
I think this concept will be followed by more airlines. LCC or "legacy", If you're like it or not!

For the Elite members this is actually a good thing, the best seats in the house are now not immediatly taken by Joe and Mary, who will go on their yearly flight to their holiday destination. So, more (free!) choice of better seats for the Elites.
 
jmbweeboy
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:38 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:07 pm

Is there any end to the "nickel and diming" of airline passengers ? Any wonder why most people hate to fly now ?!

JMBWEEBOY
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:07 pm



Quoting FFlyer (Reply 9):
Yes, I would have paid $50 extra for it,

given the current Euro/Dollar exchange, it would be $73.43... Wink

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 7):

And about the 3-4-3 seating, doesn´t EK has it? I believe pax are still happily flying EK even with 3-4-3 in the 777.

.... checkmark ....
"Up the Irons!"
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:33 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:19 pm

This is pretty pathetic, what makes KLM any different from Southwest? This is as low as it gets, congrats KLM, you have hit the bottom. From here on, it can only get better Smile

As far as all the hype around EK and their 3-4-3 seating, yes it's pretty bad to be in that seat for 14 hours, I don't see how good service can make up for it.

QUANTAS (I know it is really QANTAS, but doesn't roll off the tongue as good as QUANTAS) with a 31 inch seat pitch wins the grand prize of airlines to avoid if you are over 6 feet tall
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:21 pm



Quoting Trinxat (Reply 32):
I am sure most dutch will use KLM anyway like it or not. But don't use this factor as a success indicator, they do not have many other choices out of AMS

Well, not per default. AMS is served by a lot of foreign carriers as well. Most Dutch people have a love-hate relationship with KLM. We are proud of its long history and the sheer size of the network that is amazing for such a small country. We are in the league with LHR in terms of destinations and MAD and FRA in terms of pax, despite our limited domestic network (AMS-GRQ and AMS-MST) and the limited amount of O&D traffic. On the other hand most (frequent) travelers are quite critical, for example Lufthansa has an excellent reputation in the Netherlands and is the carrier of choice for a lot of people. So, there are choices out of AMS and there are choices out of DUS and BRU, which are close to the Dutch borders.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 32):
You are completely free to defend "your" airline

Well, just to clarify; KLM is not "my" airline. The reason I have Papa Hotel Kilo Lima Mike as my nickname is not related to KLM, but has another reason. The coincidence it contains KLM is something I'm not unhappy with, but that still does not imply I am in anyway related to KLM whatsoever.
I am a Flying Blue Silver Elite, so I make a reasonable amount of flights with KLM, and I can only say their product is average. I have had far more enjoyable flights on LAN Chile and Air France, just to name a few. Apart from that I am a student in Business Administration, and I can only admire KLM's business strategy and profit numbers. That's what I've been trying to defend here, KLM's business case. Not the inflight product...
 
sk601
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:21 pm



Quoting JMBWEEBOY (Reply 35):
Is there any end to the "nickel and diming" of airline passengers ?

No, I don't think so, but.......airfares are still lower than many years ago (especially if you take inflation into account).

Basically, more and more airlines start charging you a base fare and it's up to you if you want to pay for extra services. I still remember my first flight with SQ (who doesn't remember their first SQ flight? ). It was in 1994, from AMS-JFK. SQ was the cheapest at that time on the AMS-JFK route. The return fare was Hfl 1400,-, which is nowadays about Eur 600! Currently KLM offers a AMS-JFK vv ticket for Eur 470 including all taxes and fees (departure in Jan.)

My first flight (with KLM) AMS-LAX-AMS was Hfl 1700 back in 1992, which is Eur 750,-. Current take off fare is Eur 540,- !

My point: you ALWAYS paid for meals/drinks/extra room/headsets/extra baggage allowance and so on, it just was not mentioned separately on your bill from the travel agent/airline.
 
PlunaCRJ
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:05 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:49 pm



Quoting SKA380 (Reply 21):
My next 2 trips to asia are booked with Finnair and LH, both of with i can choose whatever seat i want free of charge.

Really? Try choosing a seat in First Class  Wink


KL could market these special seats as "Economy Premium" or something like that, offer a few extra perks such as a welcome drink, etc... and voila! You´ve got a new class that is slightly more expensive than Y (50 more Euro precisely)
 
BOAC911
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:47 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:52 pm



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 22):
I can't get away from the fact this is thinking "out of the box" that is mainly only done at other LCC's, true.

If I remember correctly, wasn't it also KLM that added 2 or 3 rows of seats in front of 747 wing exits (L3 & R3) to maximize profits? This was about 20 years, and at the time, completely mind-boggling....

It goes to show us that KLM definitely thinks outside of the box, irregardless as to whether such a decision constitutes more or less safety for its customers. And then of course there's Tenerife...but I am not going to get into that one.
 
BOAC911
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:47 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:56 pm

Reading this thread has made made dread my upcoming flight on KLM. My first time ever with them. I will be flying FRA-AMS-IAH in February, in a business class that's bound to be disappointment...
 
BOAC911
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:47 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:11 pm

To be fair, I must add though, that it is not for any reason that KLM remains the world's oldest airline (albeit with a partner)
 
caribb
Posts: 1504
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:39 pm

Humm.. I don't like the direction they are taking here. Do they offer discounted prices for seats near washrooms or those against bulkheads that don't recline fully?.. or for middle seats where you have two passengers arms in your food? I fly KLM trans-Atlantic every year and fly as a single passenger, these seats are idea for me... now I'm penalized.
 
PHKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 42):
Reading this thread has made made dread my upcoming flight on KLM. My first time ever with them. I will be flying FRA-AMS-IAH in February, in a business class that's bound to be disappointment...

Sorry, but you make a fool out of yourself. Really.
As if you know something about KLM World Business Class after reading this thread that you didn't know before... AMS-IAH is operated by PrivatAir anyway in WBC, so you'll have a wonderful ride on a BBJ 737.
Anyway, I'll rest my case as there are clearly people that want to flame KLM's inflight product beyond all other things. That has not been my intention when starting this thread.
Off course one can be critical towards this at least doubtful move, but statements like the one above make me dislike these discussion on A.net so much. So much energy wasted on so much BS.

Quoting Caribb (Reply 44):
I fly KLM trans-Atlantic every year and fly as a single passenger, these seats are idea for me... now I'm penalized.

You're giving the opportunity to secure these seats before your flight.

Quoting Caribb (Reply 44):
Do they offer discounted prices for seats near washrooms or those against bulkheads that don't recline fully?

This discussion perfectly proves there is perceived added value for those seats (and KLM will definitely know based on what customers ask for at check in). When a guy comes up to you and asks "for 50 Euros you can sit in my exit-row seat" you'd probably surprised by his bluntness, but you're faced a choice you can easily decline. But the guy is smart, he has something that is desirable and worth money, he can capitalize this positions. That is called business, and this bluntness and sense for business is, well, typical Dutch. It has brought us very far, with a fair share of criticism and cynicism, but please allow us to do whatever we think is best. You and your airlines are free to do so as well, and if that's what you like more, please choose those carriers.

[Edited 2007-12-12 10:33:52]
 
Splitz
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:15 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:03 pm

Wow......talkin' about trying to increase revenue huh? Geez!
 
lima
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun May 30, 1999 11:37 am

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:17 pm

Pity that they are going obsesive to get more money on everything and damaging their image

Next: pay to go to the toilet, like it is common in many places in Holland  Smile
 
User avatar
SKAirbus
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:37 pm

Yep then they'll charge for a window seat or an aisle seat leaving the only charge-free seats centre seats...
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
AApilot2b
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:38 pm

RE: KLM To Charge For 2-seat-rows On 747, 772 And M11

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:39 pm

Just another reason why KLM is not at the top of my list for travel. You can only nickel and dime people so much before they take their business somewhere else. Especially on long haul. KLM already has horrible seat pitch, now they are going to charge more if you are not squished laterally? You have to be kidding!