777
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AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:32 pm

I'm writing this post from FCO terminal C where 2 AF 777 are parked at the moment: the first one experienced a problem while flying over Italy enroute to La Reunion and landed in emergency with one engine shut down, while the second one is here to take the pax and continue the trip.

anyone here has more news on that?
 
bakersdozen
Posts: 186
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:37 pm

Obviously we don't know any details yet, but another 777 engine shutdown for AF doesn't look good for them and getting their longer ETOPS back.
 
B747forever
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:37 pm

Hmm. this is the second engine failure in short time by AF 777s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 pm



Quoting Bakersdozen (Reply 1):
but another 777 engine shutdown for AF doesn't look good for them and getting their longer ETOPS back.

 sarcastic  Why should they "get their ETOPS back" ? they never "lost" it !
 
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zeke
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:33 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Hmm. this is the second engine failure in short time by AF 777s.

Is it the third ? One in Irkutsk, St Petersburg and this one ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
B747forever
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:34 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Is it the third ? One in Irkutsk, St Petersburg and this one ?

Seems that I have missed one. True 3. Seems that something is going on in AF 777 fleet.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
IDISA
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:35 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Why should they "get their ETOPS back" ? they never "lost" it !

FlySSC, check out the "Similar topics" section and read about the emergency landing in LED, some weeks ago.

Quoting Bakersdozen (Reply 1):
doesn't look good for them and getting their longer ETOPS back.

Ahi ahi... I was thinkin' the same thing...

IDISA
 
Beaucaire
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:39 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):

sarcastic Why should they "get their ETOPS back" ? they never "lost" it !

I'm pretty sure if the engine in question is of the same type than the one last week in St. Petersburg,there will be some action comming from the DGAC...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting IDISA (Reply 6):
FlySSC, check out the "Similar topics" section and read about the emergency landing in LED, some weeks ago.

I read it.
And I also read this one :
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3725869/

And I confirm that all this is nothing else that b***sh*t !!! Just a rumor found on a website and reported here on A.Net.

The fact is that AF is having some troubles with the GE90, just like all other airlines using this same engine type on their B777s. This is not new, and it started as soon as since the first deliveries of the GE90 powered B772ER.

[Edited 2007-12-12 09:46:21]
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:50 pm



Quoting IDISA (Reply 6):
FlySSC, check out the "Similar topics" section and read about the emergency landing in LED, some weeks ago.

They did not lose ETOPS altogether. If they did, they wouldn't be operating any 777 routes now.
I love ASO!
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Is it the third ?

No. It is actually the sixth ! :
1) : B772ER GRU-CDG diverted to LPA
2) : B772ER CDG-GRU diverted to FOR
3) : B772ER HKG-CDG, returned to HKG
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED

and 6th : this last one.

And once again, this problem is concerning all the airlines operating GE90 powered B777 (among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).
 
raggi
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:07 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT

This was a 772ER, GE90-94B engines

The one in LED recently was a 773ER, GE90-115B engines, the first IFSD while in service for that airframe/engine combo.

Now, does anyone know what A/C was the troubled one today?

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
And once again, this problem is concerning all the airlines operating GE90 powered B777 (among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).

Hmmm, CX? They have troubles already? They've only been operating the GE90 for a few months!


raggi
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zeke
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:08 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
and 6th : this last one.

All AF ?

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
(among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).

CX has not had any problems with the GE90 engines so far, only been operating them for a very short period of time. Had some issues with the RR Trent on the 777.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
miamiair
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:12 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
this is the second engine failure in short time by AF 777s.

Was it a failure or an IFSD?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
FFlyer
Posts: 552
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:13 pm

Anyone to post a similar list of another airline, and another engine? I know that for example, Finnair had two shut-downs on their A320 series within some two weeks. I guess the engines in question were CFM, not sure though. And AY is a much smaller airline than AF.
 
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zeke
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:25 pm



Quoting FFlyer (Reply 15):
Anyone to post a similar list of another airline, and another engine?

http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/777/777engfails.htm
http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/777/777engfails-1.htm

I find http://www.jacdec.de/ pretty good for seeing engine failure events being reported which do not make it on here a lot of times.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 pm



Quoting Raggi (Reply 12):
Now, does anyone know what A/C was the troubled one today?

F-GSQP (cn 35676/573)
Delivered to AF on June 30th 2006.


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Photo © Orrico emmanuel

 
FFlyer
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:23 pm

Zeke, I didn't find either of those sites to have complete and reliable info, especially on engine shut-downs. Maybe those stats don't exist as comparison charts. What I meant, is that if there could be a list e.g. LH's A340 shut-downs, that would put the AF figures into perspective.
 
worldrider
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:42 pm



Quoting FFlyer (Reply 17):
Zeke, I didn't find either of those sites to have complete and reliable info, especially on engine shut-downs. Maybe those stats don't exist as comparison charts. What I meant, is that if there could be a list e.g. LH's A340 shut-downs, that would put the AF figures into perspective.

why do you have to compare it always to an airbus? maybe you should compare it to their A330s then...since the A340 has no ETOPS issues.
 
coza777
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:36 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
No. It is actually the sixth ! :
1) : B772ER GRU-CDG diverted to LPA
2) : B772ER CDG-GRU diverted to FOR
3) : B772ER HKG-CDG, returned to HKG
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED

and 6th : this last one.

And once again, this problem is concerning all the airlines operating GE90 powered B777 (among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).



Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
CX has not had any problems with the GE90 engines so far, only been operating them for a very short period of time. Had some issues with the RR Trent on the 777.

This could be more of an Air France maintenance problem, rather than an inherent GE90 problem. Continental and BA have GE90 777s, and I do not believe there are any on-going recurring problems with their engines. Could someone corroborate me on that point? Thanks.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:58 pm

Well the GE-90115B engine serves some of the longest routes in the world so its more prone to having problems while in the air. It couldn't be some kind of design flaw could it?

Have SQ and ANA had engine problems with their 7773ER? They both have 11 each now.
 
Getdonnie
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:00 pm



Quoting Coza777 (Reply 19):

I am not in a position of authority to corroborate but given the flight hours relied on by both Continental and BA and the sectors, in particular those of Continental, used by their 777s, perhaps it could be an AF maintenance issue more so than GE's pwr plants. Has GE made any announcements pertaining to the AF diversions?
 
gigneil
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:25 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
The fact is that AF is having some troubles with the GE90, just like all other airlines using this same engine type on their B777s. This is not new, and it started as soon as since the first deliveries of the GE90 powered B772ER.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
And once again, this problem is concerning all the airlines operating GE90 powered B777 (among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).

CX has not had any trouble, and you're blowing up something that happened 10 years ago.

There were some early delivery problems with the GE90, and practically none since then. Nothing nearly as serious as the fan blades on Trents coming unbonded and causing several airlines to lose their ETOPS certifications entirely.

NS
 
Sketty222
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:16 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
The fact is that AF is having some troubles with the GE90, just like all other airlines using this same engine type on their B777s. This is not new, and it started as soon as since the first deliveries of the GE90 powered B772ER

Im not aware of any other airlines having any problems with their GE 90's. I think this may be a maintenance issue with AF rather than a problem with the engine itself
There's flying and then there's flying
 
ZBBYLW
Posts: 1612
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:34 pm



Quoting Raggi (Reply 11):
The one in LED recently was a 773ER, GE90-115B engines, the first IFSD while in service for that airframe/engine combo.

How could that be when...

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED

AFAIK the 773ER only has the GE90-115s so if AF alone has had at least 1 other engine issue with a 773ER the airframe must have had an IFSD before. This is counting on two things, that the information in my 2nd quote is true. Second being if the first one was a GE90-115A (I am not sure if there is even such an engine, or a difference).
Keep the shinny side up!
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:10 am



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
No. It is actually the sixth ! :
1) : B772ER GRU-CDG diverted to LPA
2) : B772ER CDG-GRU diverted to FOR
3) : B772ER HKG-CDG, returned to HKG
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 28):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED

AFAIK the 773ER only has the GE90-115s so if AF alone has had at least 1 other engine issue with a 773ER the airframe must have had an IFSD before.

The reason is that the IKT diversion (No 5) was a 772ER and the engine involved was a GE90-94B.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
FiveMileFinal
Posts: 188
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:49 am

I distinctly remember CO having an engine blow on one of their triples during the takeoff roll of a flight out of EWR earlier this year. CO84 EWR-TLV I believe?
You goin'? We fly you dere! You been? We done already flew up in dere!
 
Norcal773
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:35 am



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
The fact is that AF is having some troubles with the GE90, just like all other airlines using this same engine type on their B777s. This is not new, and it started as soon as since the first deliveries of the GE90 powered B772ER.

Can you back that up? Saying airlines operating 777's with GE90'sis a little over the top if you ask me.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
CO787EWR
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:10 am

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:39 am



Quoting FiveMileFinal (Reply 26):
I distinctly remember CO having an engine blow on one of their triples during the takeoff roll of a flight out of EWR earlier this year. CO84 EWR-TLV I believe?

This http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-269498.html
 
raggi
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:47 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 24):


Quoting Raggi (Reply 11):
The one in LED recently was a 773ER, GE90-115B engines, the first IFSD while in service for that airframe/engine combo.

How could that be when...

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED

AFAIK the 773ER only has the GE90-115s so if AF alone has had at least 1 other engine issue with a 773ER the airframe must have had an IFSD before. This is counting on two things, that the information in my 2nd quote is true. Second being if the first one was a GE90-115A (I am not sure if there is even such an engine, or a difference).

Like I corrected FlySSC, the number 4 on his list was a 772ER, not a 773ER.

The one recently in LED was a 773ER. And now this one in FCO was also a 773ER. Up until those two, no IFSD while in service for the GE90-115B.


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
AvFan4ever
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:07 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:06 pm



Quoting Raggi (Reply 29):
The one recently in LED was a 773ER. And now this one in FCO was also a 773ER. Up until those two, no IFSD while in service for the GE90-115B.

Neither the LED or FCO diversions were IFSDs. Factual reports that will eventually be made public will support this statement.
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:24 pm



Quoting AvFan4ever (Reply 30):
Neither the LED or FCO diversions were IFSDs. Factual reports that will eventually be made public will support this statement.

Yesterday's flight AF 008 (CDG-JFK) did not leave due to engine failure (777 ) neither
-that might be a co-incidence,but the co-incidents start to build a pattern...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
gkirk
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:25 pm



Quoting Coza777 (Reply 19):

No secret that when BA started using the 777s with GE90s, there was a few problems initially. These are all sorted now, so I expect the same to happen with AF.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:29 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 32):
No secret that when BA started using the 777s with GE90s, there was a few problems initially. These are all sorted now, so I expect the same to happen with AF.

What a strange fact that you first have to go through a "learning" courve with engines..
AF have a bunch of 777's and I'd think their maintenance should be pretty up to standards with GE's produce.
So how many IFSD's does one have to experience to get to know the tricks of engine-technology ?
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
raggi
Posts: 880
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:34 pm



Quoting AvFan4ever (Reply 30):
Neither the LED or FCO diversions were IFSDs. Factual reports that will eventually be made public will support this statement.

Ok, good to hear. So let me rephase then; I don't believe the GE90-115B has had any technical problems whilst in flight necessitating a diversion prior to the AF 773ER diversion to LED.


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
FFlyer
Posts: 552
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:01 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 33):
So how many IFSD's does one have to experience to get to know the tricks of engine-technology ?



Quoting AvFan4ever (Reply 30):
Neither the LED or FCO diversions were IFSDs

Beaucaire, I remember you having had something against GE in some other threads, too. There are A fan, A haters, B fans, B haters....but engine fans (no punt!) and engine haters. I don't particularly like certain airlines (e.g. Finnair), but that comes from bad experiences with these companies. Did GE somehow do you some harm? Come on, an engine is an engine.

As I mentioned somewhere above, Finnair had had two IFSD's within as many weeks with their A320's. You think that should make big news?
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:09 pm

There is no bad feeling against any engine maker at all - wrong assessment !
I would have made the same remark if the engines were RR or IAE - that's not the point.
What I start finding strange is that seemingly 330's ,767's ,757's have fewer IFSD's than777's - and BA has fewer 777 issues than AF .So is AF using "AF-only" engines ? or if not why this frequency of incidents (and we only talk about the ones occuring in flight-not the ones on the ground..)
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
User avatar
Heavierthanair
Posts: 861
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RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:33 pm

G'day

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
No. It is actually the sixth ! :
1) : B772ER GRU-CDG diverted to LPA
2) : B772ER CDG-GRU diverted to FOR
3) : B772ER HKG-CDG, returned to HKG
4) : B773ER SEL-CDG diverted to IKT
5) : B773ER PEK-CDG diverted to LED

and 6th : this last one.

And once again, this problem is concerning all the airlines operating GE90 powered B777 (among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).

Me thinks, after reading about all these unreliable GE90 powered airliners, would it not be an appropriate time to start thinking about replacing those with Rolls Royce powered four holers like the A 340 or even the A 380?  duck 
Those do not seem to have reliability problems, at least I did not read about too many inflight shut downs on A-net!  white 

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
baw716
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:54 pm

I read Air Transport World quite a lot and they usually are pretty on top of ongoing news (especially their daily news wire, which I receive). To date, I haven't heard of any ongoing problems with the GE90, although, as previously stated, there seemed to be some teething problems with the engine at the beginning of service.

Six shutdowns for AF does seem to be on the high side for a single airframe in their fleet; however, in the context of how many flights they operate with their 777 fleet during the same time frame, that number may well be within tolerance level for IFSDs...I might check with my friends at Boeing and see if they have any thoughts on the matter. If I hear anything significant, I'll pass it along.

However, my perception of ground delays/cancellations due to engine problems seems to be more of an issue in general these days. The last few flights I've taken domestically in the US have been either delayed or cancelled due to some "technical" issue with the aircraft...and on further investigation, I found those problems to be engine related. I know this is slightly off topic, but if anyone has any thoughts...IM me.

Thanks,
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
xaapb
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:08 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:01 pm

Just to add, yesterday Air France second flight (AFR434 CDG-MEX) was late for like 3 hours, and the return flight (AFR435 MEX-CDG) was cancel, could this be an engine problem also?
Greetings.
Jorge Meneses
 
baw716
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:10 pm

Why would AF delay an outbound aircraft and then cancel the return? XAAPB...did the cancellation happen as a result of the delay at CDG, or when the a/c arrived at MEX? It just is really odd that an aircraft would be sent out and then not brought back the same day in the rotation. It is really disruptive to scheduling, since it has a ripple effect down the line.

XAAPB...can you come back on this one?

Gracias y saludos,
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
AvFan4ever
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:07 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:13 pm



Quoting Baw716 (Reply 40):
Six shutdowns for AF does seem to be on the high side for a single airframe in their fleet

Once again, recent diversions to LET and FCO were not IFSDs. Of the other 4 events, I believe only 2 were IFSDs.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
And once again, this problem is concerning all the airlines operating GE90 powered B777 (among them, CX and JL experienced the same problems).

There have been no IFSDs of GE90-powered aircraft at CX or JL since EIS for each type, or even a diversion for that matter.
 
xaapb
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:08 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:31 pm

BAW716, I think I made a mistake, since I took the information from FlightStats and it said that the flight was cancel, but checking in Air France, according to them the flight left MEX at 2:20am and has a special comment that says:
“Comments
Flight AF435 has been delayed as a safety precaution.
New AF flight number AF435A.”
But it wouldn’t be a surprise to see the flight coming in, and not going back to CDG since this has happen before twice with the 777 and one when they use to send the A340.
Greetings.
Jorge Meneses
 
Norcal773
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:19 pm

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:53 pm



Quoting FFlyer (Reply 35):
Beaucaire, I remember you having had something against GE in some other threads, too. There are A fan, A haters, B fans, B haters....but engine fans (no punt!) and engine haters. I don't particularly like certain airlines (e.g. Finnair), but that comes from bad experiences with these companies. Did GE somehow do you some harm? Come on, an engine is an engine.

Where's PM when you need him.  duck 

People that I know who dpon't like General Evil have some pretty good reason but personally I could care less as long as my GE microwave/shaver/(insert any electronic here) doesn't blow up on me.

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 35):
As I mentioned somewhere above, Finnair had had two IFSD's within as many weeks with their A320's. You think that should make big news?

Interesting, considering your statement above regarding how you don't like Finnair.  biggrin 
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: AF 777 Emergency Landing @ FCO Today

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:26 pm



Quoting Baw716 (Reply 40):
although, as previously stated, there seemed to be some teething problems with the engine at the beginning of service.

One of those problems being that one of GEs blade vendors labeled look alike airfoils incorrectly. This causing blades of the wrong alloy being installed where they were never ment to be.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos