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kc135topboom
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Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:02 pm

In the early 1970s, when the relationship between China and the US began to thaw, China bought some (14-18?) Boeing B-707-320B/C for international air travel, for CAAC. IIRC, they also bought 100% of the P&W JT-3D engines as spares.

When the Chinese decided they didn't need all those spare engines for their B-707s, they decided to build their own airplane, called the Y-10.

The Shanghai Y-10 looked remarkably like the B-707-320C, except for a few minor issues. For example, the Y-10 did not have the famous Boeing style "eye brow" windows, or the "stinger" style HF radio antenna atop the fin. Other than those two features, the two airplanes types looked identical.

Both Shanghai and Boeing publicly said the two airplanes are very different, even though they had the same dementions and looked (externally) alike.

IIRC, there were only 2-4 Y-10s built, and it never went into production, or scheduled airline service. I believe all Y-10s were used for a short time for government transport services, but not VIP service. IIRC, all were parked by 1986, or so.

But, was the Y-10 really a B-707 copy?

Where are all of the Y-10s and CAAC B-707s now?
 
CV990
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:44 pm

Hi!

In my opinion China received their 707's and then tried to use Boeing 707 technology to "create" a new airplane called Y-10, maybe they wanted to do something like a KC-135 "made in China", but it didn't worked out!!!
Regarding CAAC/Air China 707's there are a few still flying:

Boeing 707-3J6B


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Photo © Marcel Schmidt
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Photo © Allan Martins Antunes



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Boeing 707-3J6C


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Photo © Jan Ostrowski
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Photo © Chris Muir



The Angola Government one is quite a regular visitor to LIS, but in last week's EU/Africa Summit Angola "changed planes" and came with an ex: Pan Am 707, D2-MAN!!!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
caboclo
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:54 pm

Reverse engineering an aircraft seems to be a lot harder than it looks. Even the Soviets had a hard time with it; they built some great clean sheet planes, but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle. The TU-204/757 is another example. It is certified and they have sold a few, but even the Russian airlines aren't buying very many of them. Getting back to China, I think they will do a lot better with their recent approach of getting foreign airframers to license them the technology and help set up factories in China. Funny how much difference a little honesty can make.
Freight dogs have more fun
 
rampart
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting Caboclo (Reply 2):
Getting back to China, I think they will do a lot better with their recent approach of getting foreign airframers to license them the technology and help set up factories in China. Funny how much difference a little honesty can make.

You don't think the upcoming ARJ21 isn't just a little derivative of the MD-95, from when McDD and China were exploring partnerships? Did/will AVIC pay any royalties to Boeing? Maybe they did, I don't know.

-Rampart
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:24 pm

What about the Y-10s? Are any still in flyable condition? Where are they?

Reverse engineering an aircraft seems to be a lot harder than it looks. Even the Soviets had a hard time with it; they built some great clean sheet planes, but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle. The TU-204/757 is another example.

Don't forget the Tu-2/B-29, but that was a little more successful for the USSR.
 
rikkus67
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:54 pm


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Taecoxu




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Photo © Joseph Tonna




(filler)

You definitely can see the reverse engineering between the two designs.


The chinese still do reverse engineering, especially with vehicles...do a google search of Mercedes clones, including the smart car....
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
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longhauler
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 5):
You definitely can see the reverse engineering between the two designs.

Yes, they even had the curve on the top of the engine nacelles to house the Turbo Compressors, which, in the Y10 are non-existent!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
astral
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:18 pm

It is a reverse engineering aircraft, but not completely. There was an article in a Chinese aviation journal in 2001 talked about the Y10 development. The external 'shape' was very similar, but so was the IL62 compared to VC10, as aircraft design during the 60's period came from the same aerodyamic principles. However, internally the Y10 was quite different than the B707. According to the article, every systems onboard were not the same as that of the B707, and the structure was vastly different. That is why both Boeing and China refere the Y10 as a 'different' aircraft to the B707.
The major problem with the Y10 was its weight, plus with a very small CG shift limit, making it not save for civil application. In fact China never took any of very few Y10 made into any kind of services, and no VIP flights !! One Y10 is now in an air force museum, and I think the Chinese will move it to the aviation museum in Beijing in the near future.
 
irobertson
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:29 pm

And the IL-63 is still in commercial service... shame about the VC-10s, if they could have re-engined them it might have extended their life.
 
A342
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:29 pm



Quoting Caboclo (Reply 2):
but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle.

They may have copied the principle, but not the design itself. The only (unmanned) flight the Buran made was successful, but the breakup of the Soviet Union (read: funding problems) prevented further flights.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
rampkontroler
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:55 pm

Designing a similar aircraft for similar functions is not the same as reverse engineering, whereby you have an example of one aircraft and attempt to duplicate it down to all the bits and pieces.
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:57 pm

Hey! No offense, but with the numerous quality issues concerning products made in China... Aqua Dots being the most recent. I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.
 
A342
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:05 pm



Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.

IIRC AA has some Chinese-assembled MD80s!
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:35 pm

Interesting.... According to the literature I have on the MD-80. The only MD-80s assembled in China went to Chinese airlines. Either way, I still stand by my statement.
 
marky
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:56 pm

The Chinese built MD-80s did all go to Chinese Airlines to begin with, but many have since been sold on, Spirit certainly had a few.

Although they were built in China they were built under very strict oversight by McDonnell-Douglas, so much so that they are covered by the McDonnell-Douglas type certificate and are considered by aviation authorities to have been 'built' by McDonnell-Douglas
 
xtoler
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:07 pm

Don't forget EMBRAER allowing Harbin to build a few ERJ145's. Not sure how that went.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:11 pm



Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
but with the numerous quality issues concerning products made in China... Aqua Dots being the most recent.

Your comparing a child's toy with an airliner?  eyebrow 
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:25 pm

It looks like a case of "convergent design." That is to say that form follows function. Given the technology of the time, if you wanted to make an aircraft that was going to perform similarly to a 707, it was probably going to look like one.

In reality, this aircraft looks about as much like a 707 as a DC-8 does. The F100 and DC-9 looked similar, too. It's a turbojet-powered plane with 4 underwing mounted engines. The nose is a different shape, as are the wing-body fairings and engine pylons.

I'm not saying it wasn't based on the 707 or reverse-engineered from one, but it's definately not a carbon-copy.
-Doc Lightning-

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rikkus67
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:15 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
'm not saying it wasn't based on the 707 or reverse-engineered from one, but it's definately not a carbon-copy.

I have to agree with you there, at least as far as the empenage and nose/cockpit windows go. I would be curious as to the fuselage diameter and wingspan dimensions/flap layout, and how closely they match that of the 707...
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
rampkontroler
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:27 pm

Here ya go...a little more data for you:

http://www.samf.cn/fjzzEN.htm

http://image20.webshots.com/20/1/7/30/194610730rejoqp_fs.jpg

[Edited 2007-12-12 15:30:37]
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:50 pm



Quote:
Your comparing a child's toy with an airliner?

No.... I am stating that I would not actively choose to fly on an airliner that I knew was manufactured in China.  Wink After all, the term "Quality" and "Made in China" do not normally go together.
That aside, seriously guys... it is obvious from the photos that this is not a 707 look alike.  crazy  Why would you defame the beautiful 707 by saying such a thing?
 
CV990
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:11 am

Hi!

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 20):
Why would you defame the beautiful 707 by saying such a thing?

You're absolutely right and you have "my blessing"!!! Last weekend we had here in LIS the EU/Africa summit and I saw 3 707's, one from Mali already converted with new nacelles, and 2 still original, just with the Q kit, one from Angola - D2-MAN - and one from Romania - YR-ABB - and it was fantastic to see them still flying with a long track of black smoke coming from all 4 engines and the noise was nostalgic...the Angola one was infact an ex: Pan Am 707-32, N886PA, that I saw still in Pan Am colors many years ago!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
LHR777
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:11 am



Quoting Irobertson (Reply 8):
And the IL-63 is still in commercial service

The IL-62 is, what's an IL-63?
 
CV990
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:07 am

Hi!

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 22):
what's an IL-63?

Maybe a "chinese copy" of the IL62!!!
 cheerful 
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
LHR777
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:48 pm



Quoting CV990 (Reply 23):
Maybe a "chinese copy" of the IL62!!!

That must be it. Awesome!!

Talking about Chinese 'cloning' cars, I do have to admit to finding it amusing that a company called "China Brilliance" makes a car called the "BS6". Bullsh*t 6, anyone? It recently failed miserably in crash tests, as this LINK so graphically shows.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:15 pm



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 24):
That must be it. Awesome!!

Talking about Chinese 'cloning' cars, I do have to admit to finding it amusing that a company called "China Brilliance" makes a car called the "BS6". Bullsh*t 6, anyone? It recently failed miserably in crash tests, as this LINK so graphically shows.

"Passenger cabin intrusion" doesn't begin to describe the behavior of several Chinese cars and there's no way I'm even looking at one until (a) they pass crash tests, and (b) they demonstrate that their cars have reliable engines and transmissions, and I can't hear them rusting on a damp night.

But unlike cars, "airliner" and "crashworthy" don't really go together. I'm much more concerned about "airliner" and "in-flight failure" being the same sentence. Like others on this thread, I want more evidence before my level of trust goes up.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:17 pm



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 24):
Quoting CV990 (Reply 23):
Maybe a "chinese copy" of the IL62!!!

That must be it. Awesome!!

A Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a British jetliner?
 
irobertson
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:24 pm



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 22):
The IL-62 is, what's an IL-63?

An idiot from Canada. Sorry!
 
cricket
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:27 pm

The best documented reverse engineering example is what the Soviets did with the B-29 making the Tu-4 by copying everything but the engines (there were issues with the gauge of the metal, therefore the Tupolev's were quite a bit heavier). The Tu-4 formed the basis of a whole generation of Soviet military aircraft all the way upto the Tu-16 and Tu-95.

Other examples like the Y-10 seem 'inspired' by other designs like the 707, even though the nose section reminds me more of the Dassault Mercure, though I have to admit the ARJ does look a lot like the MD95/B717.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:36 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Don't forget the Tu-2/B-29, but that was a little more successful for the USSR.



Quoting Cricket (Reply 28):
The best documented reverse engineering example is what the Soviets did with the B-29 making the Tu-4 by copying everything but the engines (there were issues with the gauge of the metal, therefore the Tupolev's were quite a bit heavier). The Tu-4 formed the basis of a whole generation of Soviet military aircraft all the way upto the Tu-16 and Tu-95.

Tu-4, you are right. Me bad, damed keyboard...........  banghead 
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:13 pm



Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.

IIRC AA has some Chinese-assembled MD80s!

I don't believe any of the current fleet was built in China. Two of the Reno Air birds were but i believe they were sold off?

Quoting Cricket (Reply 28):
The best documented reverse engineering example is what the Soviets did with the B-29 making the Tu-4 by copying everything but the engines (there were issues with the gauge of the metal, therefore the Tupolev's were quite a bit heavier). The Tu-4 formed the basis of a whole generation of Soviet military aircraft all the way upto the Tu-16 and Tu-95.

And lets not forget the Li-2... though that was an admitted copy of the DC-3, it was modified to suit Soviet operations better.

The Tu-4 is so similar to a B-29, its actually scary to see pics of one. Makes you think it's the twillight zone or something 1st time you see a B-29 with a red star on it... until someone educates you on the Tu-4.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:24 pm



Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 30):
Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.

IIRC AA has some Chinese-assembled MD80s!

I don't believe any of the current fleet was built in China. Two of the Reno Air birds were but i believe they were sold off?

I thought those were the Reno Air MD-90s, not the MD-83s that were built in China.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 30):
The Tu-4 is so similar to a B-29, its actually scary to see pics of one. Makes you think it's the twillight zone or something 1st time you see a B-29 with a red star on it... until someone educates you on the Tu-4.

Yes, it is scary, even the .50 caliber defensive M-2 MGs were copied. But there were some differences, because the Russians used their own engines, the Tu-4 had less range than the B-29 and carried a smaller payload. But, like the B-29 was for the US, the Tu-4 was the USSR's first nuclear bomber.
 
fraport
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:25 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Reverse engineering an aircraft seems to be a lot harder than it looks. Even the Soviets had a hard time with it; they built some great clean sheet planes, but when they tried to copy western designs the results weren't so good. Witness their space shuttle.

Does it get any more ignorant?! Typical western perception  Yeah sure
The Buran was in no way reverse engineered. Did the Svoviets buy some US Shuttles and dismantled them?
Buran was technically far ahead of the US Shuttles. It flew unmanned and returned successfully without any problems. It failed because the Soviet Union collapsed, not because it was a bad or reverse engineered design.
 
CV990
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:27 pm

Hi!

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 27):
An idiot from Canada. Sorry!

Noop, not an idiot...I've donne the same, quite a few times too...but we had a laugh regarding this!!! It's Christmas, it's a fun time!
Regards and take care!
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:06 pm



Quoting Irobertson (Reply 27):
An idiot from Canada. Sorry!

A Chinese born Russian Spy here in Canada to reverse engineer our Q400's?

While your at it fix the landing gear problem.  Wink
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:07 pm



Quoting Fraport (Reply 32):
Does it get any more ignorant?! Typical western perception
The Buran was in no way reverse engineered. Did the Svoviets buy some US Shuttles and dismantled them?
Buran was technically far ahead of the US Shuttles.

Why don't you go back and see I had cut and pasted what was said about the Buran from Post #2, Caboclo.

True the Buran was not a copy of the US Orbiters, it just looked like the US Shuttle, just like the Tu-144 (Concordeski) looked like the Concorde.

BTW, the Buran was INFERIOR to the Shuttle, and copuld not fly again, that is why it failed, not because the Soviet Union collapsed. The Buran was bad engineering, like a lot of the Soviet Space Program (except Mir and Soyuse) but you were only between 8 and 10 at the time of the collapse of the USSR, so how would you know?.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:10 pm



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 34):
While your at it fix the landing gear problem.

That's an easy one:

before:
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Photo © Michael Brazier



after:
View Large View Medium
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Photo © French Frogs Aviation Pictures



Notice how ATR was smart and didn't give the bird long, spindly landing gear legs dropping from the engine nacelles  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:14 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
but you were only between 8 and 10 at the time of the collapse of the USSR, so how would you know?.

I guess schools stopped teaching history? And history and facts are nowhere to be found...Your telling me no research can be done?

OH GOD WHY?  cry   crying   down   faint 
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 37):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
but you were only between 8 and 10 at the time of the collapse of the USSR, so how would you know?.

I guess schools stopped teaching history? And history and facts are nowhere to be found...Your telling me no research can be done?

Yeah, there is the internet and Wikipedia available for him.
 
A342
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 26):
A Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a British jetliner?

How exactly was the IL-62 a VC-10 copy?  Yeah sure

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35):
BTW, the Buran was INFERIOR to the Shuttle, and copuld not fly again, that is why it failed, not because the Soviet Union collapsed. The Buran was bad engineering, like a lot of the Soviet Space Program

Please prove what you're saying.

I repeat it again: the programme was terminated for financial reasons. The Russians simply found out that using Soyuz and Progress was much cheaper.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
rampart
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:04 pm



Quoting A342 (Reply 39):
I repeat it again: the programme was terminated for financial reasons. The Russians simply found out that using Soyuz and Progress was much cheaper.

My understanding and recollection, though I have no sources handy, was that Buran was terminated for financial reasons because it would cost too much to correct the engineering inferiorities, which I understood to be significant for routine operations. At least that's what I thought I read in AW&ST years ago. Mind you, the US Shuttle was probably only marginally advanced (against itself and other Western systems, not Buran), and not long into its lifetime many realized that conventional orbital lift was a better answer for many applications.

Quoting A342 (Reply 39):
How exactly was the IL-62 a VC-10 copy? Yeah sure

Not sure of the source of your incredulity. It's widely written in aviation history books, both at the time and in more modern texts, that the Il-62 raised immediate suspicion with its similarity to the VC-10. Convergent evolution or not, would Illyushin have come up with that design independently? Probably not.

-Rampart
 
A342
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:14 pm



Quoting Rampart (Reply 40):
It's widely written in aviation history books, both at the time and in more modern texts, that the Il-62 raised immediate suspicion with its similarity to the VC-10. Convergent evolution or not, would Illyushin have come up with that design independently? Probably not.

There is only a very small number of aircraft configurations that have become reality. Ilyushin simply chose one of them. But that doesn't translate into a copy.
And as we all know, the Russians have come up with some successful designs that are still unique.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
rampart
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:29 pm



Quoting A342 (Reply 41):
There is only a very small number of aircraft configurations that have become reality. Ilyushin simply chose one of them. But that doesn't translate into a copy.

It's a fine line, I know. Look at the very general similarities between the 707, DC-8, and CV-880. Not reverse engineering, and not an international controversy, but still "borrowing". Then, compare these to the wide variety of produced (Comet, Tu-104, Caravelle, Tu-114) and wacky designs that didn't make it (designs by Lockheed, Vickers, Avro, Bristol, Saunders-Roe, Baade, and even some really weird designs by Boeing and deHavilland). Could any of these other designs work? Maybe. Was it easier to build off somebody else's idea. Yes. In that sense, it was a copy, the path of least resistance. I would imagine it quite possible that Illyushin managed some good engineering scrutiny of the VC-10, just as Douglas and Convair closely observed the 707.

-Rampart
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:48 pm



Quoting Rampart (Reply 40):
Not sure of the source of your incredulity. It's widely written in aviation history books, both at the time and in more modern texts, that the Il-62 raised immediate suspicion with its similarity to the VC-10. Convergent evolution or not, would Illyushin have come up with that design independently? Probably not.

The Il-62 looks nothing like the VC-10 aside from the 4 engine rear config... Its like saying Airbus copied Boeing because they hung engines under the wings.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 42):
Then, compare these to the wide variety of produced (Comet, Tu-104, Caravelle, Tu-114)

I think you got your Tu's confused. The Tu-114 is a Giant 4 engine turbo prop and does not mirror the Caravelle, at least i dont see the resemblance.

Is the Tu-114 what you meant? If not let me know, I am curious about the Russian Caravelle looking A/C.



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rampart
Posts: 1798
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:07 pm



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 43):

I think you got your Tu's confused. The Tu-114 is a Giant 4 engine turbo prop and does not mirror the Caravelle, at least i dont see the resemblance.

Is the Tu-114 what you meant? If not let me know, I am curious about the Russian Caravelle looking A/C.

No confusion, I meant exactly what I typed. You are picking nits, it was a string of examples, not comparisons. Please, Mr. Obvious, chill. I'll agree to disagree with the obvious and comprehensive similarities on the VC-10, while I acknowledge that there are also fundamental differences. Again, this is well documented and discussed in aviation texts.

-Rampart
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:19 pm



Quoting Rampart (Reply 44):
You are picking nits, it was a string of examples, not comparisons. Please,

I was not picking nits before. But now I just might, lol.

Has the west ever build anything comparable to the Tu-114? It seems to me like a completely original stand alone clean sheet design. A passenger version of the Tu-95 bear if I recall correctly, same wings/engines and a larger fuselage.
 
rampart
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:21 pm



Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 45):
I was not picking nits before. But now I just might, lol.

Has the west ever build anything comparable to the Tu-114? It seems to me like a completely original stand alone clean sheet design. A passenger version of the Tu-95 bear if I recall correctly, same wings/engines and a larger fuselage.

Sorry, I'm must be unclear, thanks for bearing with me. My original statement intended to exemplify "variety".

Quoting Rampart (Reply 42):
compare these to the wide variety of produced (Comet, Tu-104, Caravelle, Tu-114)

You restate exactly what I'm trying to say, that these particular aircraft (Tu-104, Tu-114, Caravelle) were original design solutions for passenger aircraft. (You are correct, both the Tu-114 and 104 derive from strategic bombers). Caravelle used a completely revolutionary design, though it knowingly borrowed on some Comet design (forward fuselage, I believe, others possibly but I'm not remembering nor am I the expert).

It's a lumping and splitting argument. For example, sure, you can find similarities between Comet and Tu-104, but important design differences. And, you can do the same for the VC-10 and Il-62, but I argue that they are closer, and so did a lot of industry observers. The Tu-104 and Comet didn't attract the "stealing ideas" debate and controversy that the VC-10/Il-62 (and later Concorde and Tu-114) did. I don't even think the Y-10 stirred up the same controversy, although Boeing probably realized the amazingly limited market the Y-10 had, while the Soviets were actually trying to market the Il-62 beyond the Soviet sphere. Likewise, you didn't see much debate about the DC-9 and Fokker F-28, or the 737 and A320. Somehow, the industry and industry observers and historians accepted F-28/DC-9 and 737/A320 as independent designs.

Was that a better explanation?

-Rampart
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:29 pm



Quoting Rampart (Reply 46):
Was that a better explanation?

Absolutely!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 30):
IIRC AA has some Chinese-assembled MD80s!

I don't believe any of the current fleet was built in China.

Sorry, not correct. The following 5 AA MD-83s (ex-TWA) were built in China.


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Spirit also operated at least 4 Chinese-built MD-80s but I believe they are now stored.

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 11):
Hey! No offense, but with the numerous quality issues concerning products made in China... Aqua Dots being the most recent. I would not step foot on an airplane built in China.

Assume you then make a point not to fly on any of the above AA MD-80s. Just to be on the safe side, you may also want to avoid the 737, 747, 767 and 787. Following excerpt from Boeing website:

China has an increasingly sophisticated and expanding part to play in the commercial aviation industry and has a role on all of Boeing commercial airplane models-737, 747, 767, 777 and the newest and most innovative airplane, the 787 Dreamliner. China builds horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins, the aft tail section, doors, wing panels and other parts on the 737; 747 trailing edge wing ribs; and 747-8 ailerons, spoilers and inboard flaps. China also has an important role on the new 787 Dreamliner airplane, building the rudder, wing-to-body fairing panels, leading edge and panels for the vertical fin, and other composite parts.

Since the 1980s, Boeing has purchased more than US$1 billion in aviation hardware and services from China. Today, Boeing and Boeing supplier partners have active supplier contracts with China's aviation industry valued at well over $2.5 billion. Today, there are more than 4500 Boeing airplanes flying throughout the world with parts and assemblies built by China.


Link to the full item here:
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html

Just for the record, in addition to the 35 Chinese-built MD-80s, 2 MD-90s were also built there. They're still with China Southern.


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[Edited 2007-12-13 16:34:06]
 
akelley728
Posts: 1964
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RE: Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:41 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
2 MD-90s were also built there. They're still with China Southern.

And those might wind up back in the U.S. too. There is the rumor going around that Delta is going to buy China Southern's MD-90s.

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