LIPZ
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BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:16 pm

First two routes Brussels-NY, Paris-NY with 752 (2 classes - 102 seats).


BRITISH AIRWAYS has appointed a group of top executives to the board of BA European, a new subsidiary that will start flights from European cities to America next summer.

The " airline within an airline" is expected to fly from Paris and Brussels to New York from May.

The official launch for BA European is expected within the next month. It is not known what brand it will fly under, but it is expected to operate two Boeing 757s with about 102 seats in two classes, Club World and World Traveller Plus.


BA European is BA's response to the introduction of "open skies" between Europe and America, which allows European airlines to fly from anywhere in Europe to the US, and vice versa.

(full story)
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article3039895.ece
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:23 pm

Since AF officially came with LHR-LAX yesterday, its no surprise that BA is firing right back. Tit-for-tat. Ive watched it happen here in LAX with DL and UA over the last year. When one announces service on anothers turf, the other will fire right back.
It is what it is...
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:25 pm

I'm curious to see if they take this concept beyond New York to other U.S. markets on the East Coast. My guess would be no, though.

How does the reduced seating configuration improve the range, if at all? Can the 757s make it Chicago or Miami?
a.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:29 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
How does the reduced seating configuration improve the range, if at all? Can the 757s make it Chicago or Miami?

It might be able to make it to Chicago from some destinations in western Europe, Miami would be a strech from anything past London (on a year round basis).
It is what it is...
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:31 pm



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
How does the reduced seating configuration improve the range, if at all? Can the 757s make it Chicago or Miami?

CO 752s fly up to about 4000 miles TATL. Both BRU and CDG are about 4150 miles from ORD, so there's very little range improvement required there. It's about 4600 miles to MIA from those two cities, which still isn't a huge jump when you consider that BA has torn out 100 seats.

I wonder if the announcement of JFK first has something to do with the desire to get these routes announced (and, in a perfect world, running) prior to capacity restrictions at JFK. JFK is clearly the best place for this type of service, but there's also urgency at JFK not present at other airports.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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Vasu
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:35 pm



Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
two classes, Club World and World Traveller Plus.

Just out of interest, what config do you think the WTP cabin'll be in? 2-3? 3-2? 2-2?
 
Lono
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:36 pm



Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
First two routes Brussels-NY, Paris-NY with 752 (2 classes - 102 seats).

Hmmmmm only 102 seats.... means there will less PAX baggage .... and more room for $$$$ Cargo $$$$....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
LIPZ
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:39 pm



Quoting Vasu (Reply 5):
Just out of interest, what config do you think the WTP cabin'll be in? 2-3? 3-2? 2-2?

If I remember right Club World is BA's Business class, so I guess a 2-2 configuration. Traveller Plus is a sort of Economy Plus, maybe a 2-3 would be the best solution?
 
panam330
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:55 pm

Will BA be refurbishing their 757 cabins to look like the 737NG with the 'Signature' interior? IT sure would make them look good. Winglets would look great on BA's 757s, and add even more range for them. Any word if they'll get winglets too?
 
BCA2005
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:03 pm



Quoting Vasu (Reply 5):
Just out of interest, what config do you think the WTP cabin'll be in? 2-3? 3-2? 2-2?

Looking at their current configs:

767: J 2-2-2 and W 2-2-2
777: J 2-4-2 and W 2-4-2
744: J 2-4-2 and W 2-4-2

I would guess that the 757 would also be 2-2 in both J and W.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:16 am

Will they be getting winglets on these 757's or will the fewer amount of seats make up for that?
I love ASO!
 
PM
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:26 am

In time, I would have thought that BA's 767s would be good on routes between Europe and the US.
 
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Vasu
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:35 am



Quoting PM (Reply 11):

I guess the whole thing's a bit of an experiment... at first they'd use the smaller aircraft... if its a success, who knows?
 
PM
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:44 am



Quoting Vasu (Reply 12):
I guess the whole thing's a bit of an experiment... at first they'd use the smaller aircraft

Absolutely. But if they prove the concept with 757s then the 767s would open more markets because of the range and - perhaps - added passenger appeal.
 
Gemuser
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:48 am



Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
It is not known what brand it will fly under,

BEA???

Gemuser
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PM
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:09 am



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 14):
BEA???

In a retro colour scheme?! Those 757s would look beautiful!  bigthumbsup 


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Gemuser
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:26 am



Quoting PM (Reply 15):
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 14):BEA???
In a retro colour scheme?! Those 757s would look beautiful!   

You are an evil, evil man PM! I love it! Can someody please, please put the BEA scheme on a B757? Pretty please!

Gemuser
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PM
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:00 am



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
Can someody please, please put the BEA scheme on a B757?

Yes please. I think it would look amazing!

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
You are an evil, evil man PM!

 devil 
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:13 am



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8):
Will BA be refurbishing their 757 cabins to look like the 737NG with the 'Signature' interior? IT sure would make them look good. Winglets would look great on BA's 757s, and add even more range for them. Any word if they'll get winglets too?

The cabins will not be changed. The galleys and toilets will stay where they are.
All the seats will be new. The Club seats are Old Club World flat beds, which are being refurbished. WTP and WT seats are new (last I heard there will be WT as well) The WTP seats are better than the current WTP seats.

Yes winglets WILL be installed. They are ordered and will be installed by BA at LHR on PEJ and PEK starting mid Feb.

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
Absolutely. But if they prove the concept with 757s then the 767s would open more markets because of the range and - perhaps - added passenger appeal.

If the loads are good, the B767 that are withdrawn from longhaul in 2010 (when the B787 arrive) will go to Lauren.
 
BrusselsSouth
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:14 am

I just can't help thinking the BRU-NYC is going to reach saturation...

For this winter we have :

9W daily 777 BRU-JFK
DL daily 767 BRU-JFK
AA daily 767 BRU-JFK (code sharing with SN)
CO daily 767 BRU-EWR
9W daily 777 BRU-EWR

And now BA ? Can the Brussels-NYC market support so many flights (even counting connections) ?

Regards
BrusselsSouth
 
B747-4U3
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:03 am



Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 19):
And now BA ? Can the Brussels-NYC market support so many flights (even counting connections) ?

Don't forget that many of the passengers who will use this service might previously have used BA via LHR. Direct flights are obviously more convenient for passengers and by skipping LHR BA are freeing up extra capacity there.
 
jimbo27L
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:26 pm



Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 20):
Don't forget that many of the passengers who will use this service might previously have used BA via LHR. Direct flights are obviously more convenient for passengers and by skipping LHR BA are freeing up extra capacity there

Indeed. And dont forget that the CW and WTP only cabin will give it an exclusive feel which will no doubt prove to be a great selling point over the competition....
 
gh123
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:29 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 10):
Will they be getting winglets on these 757's or will the fewer amount of seats make up for that?

A British Airways 757 with winglets! Now that would get me excited!
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:41 pm

Nothing loaded in my GDS yet....
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
vv701
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:59 pm



Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
It is not known what brand it will fly under

Has to be basically a BA / British Airways brand if they are to build on the existing BA brand franchise. How about 'British Airways New York'? They could use the existing Union Flag livery and simply add to the existing titles.

An original thought? Well, not exactly. Remember these:

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theginge
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:10 pm

This article was in the Sunday Times but has only just appeared on the internet now for some strange reason.

I don't think anything will be loaded in any reservations systems until next year when it is all confirmed.
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:43 pm

I would have thought FRA would come before BRU. Anyway, BA should hurry up because the competition seems to be more organized and inspired with new services and code shares here and there. I think it is about time AA/BA got the ATI approval for transatlantic joint operations.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
airbazar
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:44 pm



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
Since AF officially came with LHR-LAX yesterday, its no surprise that BA is firing right back. Tit-for-tat.

You have it backwards. BA announced Paris-NY before AF announced LHR-LAX.
 
Aircellist
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:11 pm



Quoting VV701 (Reply 24):
Remember these

Aaaaah! The Landor livery...

Why on earth did they have to change that?

OT, sorry, but I always feel the same whenever I see it...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
BCAL
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:32 pm



Quoting Aircellist (Reply 28):
Why on earth did they have to change that?

Ask and ye shal find the answer here

Quote:
The adaption of this livery was seen as a move away from the traditional British image of the carrier. BA suggested that the previous "Landor" scheme carried an air of arrogance and detachment, and insisted that the new tailfins were popular with international travellers. However, they were unpopular with some people in the UK, despite nine of the designs being inspired by either England, Scotland or Wales (and one Irish scheme). Margaret Thatcher showed her displeasure at the designs by covering one of the new tailfins on a model 747 with a handkerchief. She declared, "We fly the British flag, not these awful things.

The BA board was out-of-touch at that time as it was the British air of arrogance and detachment that actually appealed to many of BA passengers!
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:38 pm



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 27):
You have it backwards. BA announced Paris-NY before AF announced LHR-LAX.

Oh, my bad. Oh well, the same princple applies.
It is what it is...
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:10 pm

AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business. Airlines dont stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:13 pm

I wonder if BA will extend an olive branch to American and get into some kind of deal with them with this service, something like AF/DL - lite.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 26):
I think it is about time AA/BA got the ATI approval for transatlantic joint operations.

Amen.

Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 19):
9W daily 777 BRU-JFK
DL daily 767 BRU-JFK
AA daily 767 BRU-JFK (code sharing with SN)
CO daily 767 BRU-EWR
9W daily 777 BRU-EWR

The two 9W are going to attract plenty of NYC-Brussels passengers, but they're really going after Indian passengers, they really aren't going to hurt the market all that much.

If anyone is going to bite the bullet, it may well be Delta, with no hub on the Brussels end and nowhere near as much feed as CO at EWR, not to mention that AA, 9W, SN and eventually BA will be/are in bed. It'll be a tough market no doubt.

[Edited 2007-12-13 12:17:04]

[Edited 2007-12-13 12:18:31]
 
FlyMeToTheMoon
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:18 pm

I would love to see the old IAD-TXL flights resurrected. LH used to fly it for a very short little while and discontinued it due to low load factors. It would connect two great cities! IAD-BCN would also be nice to have but I do not think that they would make the loads.
Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 32):
The two 9W are going to attract plenty of NYC-Brussels passengers, but they're really going after Indian passengers, they really aren't going to hurt the market all that much.

Nonetheless, they are flooding the market with cheap fares between NYC and Brussels. Plus, AA will soon be codesharing on these routes. And let's not even forget that Jet Airways offers a superior premium product to any U.S. airline.

[Edited 2007-12-13 13:24:19]
a.
 
roseflyer
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:52 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business

That may be true, but these new flights are giving passengers more options. More options and possibly lower fares are good for the consumers. That's what deregulation is all about.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Rockinflyer
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:02 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business. Airlines dont stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.

Since that is fundamentally true, would some please come in and lose money on LAX-BRU?
 crackup 
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Sketty222
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:03 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business. Airlines dont stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.

This is what the consumers want and I have a funny feeling that BA might actually make this work
There's flying and then there's flying
 
Lono
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:30 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
Airlines dont stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.

You are correct.... Everyone does it....and with "Free Sky's" looming what will happen with the US airline industry betting on international routes to keep them in the black???? What will happen for example when DL runs into competition from the likes of Ryan air between Europe and USA...???
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
Gemuser
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:36 pm



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business. Airlines dont stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.

Sorry, but IMHO this is just wrong! On 31/3/2008 there will be a fundamental change in the trans Atlantic airline business. Very significant things that were just not possible will become the norm and a few things that were normal will become impossible.

These changes will blow away the current business environment shaped by 60 years of restrictive treaties. Nobody, not even the airlines know what their "core routes" are or should be, under these new and very different conditions.

What we will now see, hopefully is a period of experimentation and innovation as new ideas are trialed to see what actually happens. This will result in red ink, maybe lots & lots of red ink, but at the end the successful business should come out stronger and the weaker go under. Well thats the theory anyway, lets see what actually happens!

Gemuser
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Rockinflyer
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:01 am



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 39):

Sorry, but IMHO this is just wrong! On 31/3/2008 there will be a fundamental change in the trans Atlantic airline business. Very significant things that were just not possible will become the norm and a few things that were normal will become impossible.

These changes will blow away the current business environment shaped by 60 years of restrictive treaties. Nobody, not even the airlines know what their "core routes" are or should be, under these new and very different conditions.

What we will now see, hopefully is a period of experimentation and innovation as new ideas are trialed to see what actually happens. This will result in red ink, maybe lots & lots of red ink, but at the end the successful business should come out stronger and the weaker go under. Well thats the theory anyway, lets see what actually happens!

Excellent point!!! No one has a crystal ball as this is a completely new frontier. Only time will tell.
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Viscount724
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:04 am



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business. Airlines don't stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.

If everyone else took your advice, Toyotas would only be sold in Japan and BMWs in Germany.
 
theginge
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:20 am



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 31):
AF flying LHR-LAX and BA flying NYC-Europe show precisenly why the airline industry is a fundamentally flawed business. Airlines dont stick to their core routes instead they attempt to branch out to grab share or prestige. Mostly these strategies end with red ink.

Of course businesses branch out to make money, why should they stick to their core routes?!?!?! It is not a fundamentally flawed business. So in that respect no one would grow any business and we'd be back in the 19th century!
 
brightcedars
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RE: BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:11 pm



Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 19):
I just can't help thinking the BRU-NYC is going to reach saturation...

For this winter we have :

9W daily 777 BRU-JFK
DL daily 767 BRU-JFK
AA daily 767 BRU-JFK (code sharing with SN)
CO daily 767 BRU-EWR
9W daily 777 BRU-EWR

And now BA ? Can the Brussels-NYC market support so many flights (even counting connections) ?

Well, actually you should really factor in the 9W flights in the equation because 9W's traffic mostly originates in India and they have little interest in filling the plane at BRU. Sure they don't spit on some local O&D to compensate for those Indians that get off the planes at BRU, but their intention is certainly not to capture the entire market nor compete to that end. And they have a better premium product that BA will offer on BRU-JFK.

BA's product will certainly hurt the premium cabins on AA (are they going to share these flights with either AA, SN or both), and to a lesser extend CO's and DL's. Let's face it, CO and DL have their faithful Skyteam business customer base and these aren't going to jump onto BA just like that.

More evidently, I hope this is part of the rumors that would put a 2nd daily BRU-JFK by the AA/SN tandem, it's a sensible way of offering this business sensitive alternative to business customers mostly, rather than dumping cheap loss driving economy capacity. I really hope SN will be part of the game and will get closer to BA and oneworld, it seems to me to be one of the few positive opportunities for them in the long run.
I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!

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