cxb744
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Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:55 pm

Looks like the retirement age for commerical pilots is about to be raised. The bill has been sent to the White House for signing.

Status for Bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.04343:

Contents for the Bill: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...cong_bills&docid=f:h4343eh.txt.pdf

WASHINGTON - The Senate voted late Wednesday to extend the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65, sending the measure to the president's desk.

the bill would change a 1960 Federal Aviation Administration regulation forcing pilots to leave the cockpit at age 60. The House passed the legislation unanimously Tuesday.

The legislation would put the U.S. retirement age in line with international standards. The International Civil Aviation Organization adopted an age 65 retirement age in November 2006.

The retirement age provision was originally included in a larger bill to reauthorize FAA programs that the House passed in September. But with the FAA bill unlikely to see action in the Senate this year, members of the House agreed to move the retirement bill separately in hopes of winning quick Senate approval.

The bill would require pilots who reach age 60 to have a medical certificate renewed every six months, to continue to participate in FAA pilot training and qualification programs and to be administered a line check every six months.

Following international practices, flights out of U.S. airports for foreign destinations would have to have at least one pilot under age 60.

The legislation is not retroactive, and airlines would not be required to hire back pilots who retire before the measure goes into effect.
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:59 pm

I am surprised we ddint hear about this before..this is a big deal to many ALPA members
 
Lono
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:18 pm

This is great news.... about time..
One thought... some of the legacy carriers have business plans that have their topped out captains go away at 60 and to be replaced with younger less paid captains.... how will this effect their current cash flow projections and business plans...?????
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
N1120A
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:22 pm



Quoting Lono (Reply 2):
One thought... some of the legacy carriers have business plans that have their topped out captains go away at 60 and to be replaced with younger less paid captains.... how will this effect their current cash flow projections and business plans...?????

Actually, pretty much all of them do. In fact, it was the carriers that lobbied the hardest to maintain the status quo for so long. The fall out in all of this will be interesting, as will how the new CBAs that take into account this. I am betting the carriers go pretty liberal on the early retirement offers.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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fxramper
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:29 pm

Been chatting to my uncle about this in the latest Flightline. There are several articles, one by Lloyd Hill, on this very topic. Jim said he's not flying past age 60 even if the bill does get signed. He's taking a huge chunk of cash for retirement before 60. I personally know 4 pilots that are with legacy carriers who currently are sitting on 2 yrs of sick just so they get their full retirement and don't have to fly again.

No retirement flight - no problem.

For those who enjoy trolling the friendly skies past age 60 - congratulations.  bigthumbsup 
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
this is a big deal to many ALPA members

Why did they oppose it and then support it? Why was APA against it? Wouldn't it mean more, richer members and their respective dues?

[Edited 2007-12-13 15:37:06]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ikramerica
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:44 pm

So is there anything in the Senate bill that says the airlines don't have to pay 63 year old pilots more than 60 year old pilots for that "valuable experience" the airlines don't even want? This is one of those unfunded mandates. It sounds good, and I don't object to it other than the unions will somehow claim the 63 year old pilot who requires constant monitoring and an under 60 "babysitter" somehow provides more value to the airline and should be paid more...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
juventus
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:21 am

Well, good and bad.

There are many guys out there who are approaching 60, but seem perfectible fit to fly. They fly until they're 60, then they go to NetJets, Flexjet or a corporate flight department, and continue flying safely for another 4-5 years. I think its totally safe they fly until the age of 65.

Bad for the young guys, less seats being vacated. Thousands of young guys with the regionals waiting to "have a career", and this won't help.

Bad for the airlines. Those guys' salaries are way up there.
 
flyf15
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:53 am

This bill doesn't really benefit anyone except for those airline captains just closing in on retirement that didn't make sound financial decisions and therefore haven't prepared adequately to retire on their own. Its screwing over pretty much everyone that isn't a major airline captain. My pilot group (a regional airline) is completely furious about it.

The airline career takes a toll on one's life. Airline pilot's life expectancy is years less than that of the average citizen. Think about all the extremely old and worn down airline captains you've seen in airport terminals. Not a single one of them was older than being in their 50s...and they already look like they're in their 70s.

As was previously mentioned, it doesn't help airlines either. Those guys sticking around are much more expensive than hiring brand new pilots to replace them. ALPA really screwed up on this one, they're definitely not acting in accordance with the majority of their membership's wishes and hopefully it comes back to bite them. Its one of the most selfish things I have ever seen occur in the airline industry.
 
n710ps
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:05 am

FlyF15, you hit the nail on the head. Nopt only that but the flowthrough to bigger planes at some carriers just got that much longer. That means McDonalds lifestyle for us that much longer.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
Lono
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:26 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
old and worn down airline captains

Nope.... I see a safe experienced captain..... grey hair is better than hair gel IMO.....

But ... yes it will make the younger pilots think again about the extra wait.... and the airline companies who will now have to pay an extra 5 years ot topped out wages...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:30 am

I heard it through the grapevine that WN actually lobbied for passage of this bill on behalf of their pilots association...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
flyf15
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:30 am



Quoting Lono (Reply 10):
Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
old and worn down airline captains

Nope.... I see a safe experienced captain..... grey hair is better than hair gel IMO.....

I see a captain who's life expectancy is decreasing every time he goes to work. Reduced rest overnights, 16 hour duty days, emergencies, etc are all wearing down on these guys and its hard to do when you're not young and full of energy. I personally don't think its a good lifestyle choice to continue flying into your 60s. Not to mention the fact that you just aren't what you are in your 40s or 50s.

Then again, I have a lot more gray hair on my head than hair gel.  Smile
 
flyf15
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:32 am

I'd also like to add that there are a lot of arguments on both sides of this but the one thing that never comes up is if pilots should be flying airplanes at this age. Sure people say they should or should not, but everyone has an ulterior motive they're disguising.

If 60 is age discrimination, then 65 is too.
 
N1120A
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:58 am



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
So is there anything in the Senate bill that says the airlines don't have to pay 63 year old pilots more than 60 year old pilots for that "valuable experience" the airlines don't even want?

That is a private issue for the airlines and their pilots to work out, not one for the government to be involved in.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DualQual
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:02 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):

Why did they oppose it and then support it? Why was APA against it? Wouldn't it mean more, richer members and their respective dues?

A very vocal minority supported it. I am still firmly against it. ALPA National caved to the few who desire to work to 65. Basically it is the few with no life outside the airline that need to support their 6 ex wives. I have no desire to work past 60 (let alone to 60)
There's no known cure for stupid
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:12 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 13):
I'd also like to add that there are a lot of arguments on both sides of this but the one thing that never comes up is if pilots should be flying airplanes at this age. Sure people say they should or should not, but everyone has an ulterior motive they're disguising.

If 60 is age discrimination, then 65 is too

Don't you think it's time the US got in sync with the rest of the world? If you can have over 60 pilots flying into/out of the US why the big stink?
You'd better get ready because ICAO is looking at age 67! At my last physical, my examiner showed me the draft proposal.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
This bill doesn't really benefit anyone except for those airline captains just closing in on retirement that didn't make sound financial decisions and therefore haven't prepared adequately to retire on their own. Its screwing over pretty much everyone that isn't a major airline captain. My pilot group (a regional airline) is completely furious about it.

Don't you thinkn you're being a little harsh? What about all the UA/US pilots who lost all their retirement? I suppose that's their fault?????
Fly fast, live slow
 
Lono
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:41 am



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 12):
who's life expectancy is decreasing every time he goes to work.

Yes...true for everyone though..... but no one gets out of this world alive.... eh???

I liked the pic you have of the old WA 733 on your profile... I remember when we got those... speaking of grey hair...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
Pihero
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
Don't you think it's time the US got in sync with the rest of the world? If you can have over 60 pilots flying into/out of the US why the big stink?
You'd better get ready because ICAO is looking at age 67! At my last physical, my examiner showed me the draft proposal.

Hear, Hear !

It has now been passed into law !
You young bucks can now ask for an age-70 retirement bill, as you'll live longer than your seniors !  rotfl 

[Edited 2007-12-14 01:35:13]
Contrail designer
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:03 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
Those guys sticking around are much more expensive than hiring brand new pilots to replace them.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that. At least here there's not that much diff between a new capt. hourly rate and a topped out capt. and a new capt. costs the co. a lot in initial trg. For those that want to scam the system I do not support but for those that want to continue their career go for it.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
Its one of the most selfish things I have ever seen occur in the airline industry.

Oh Please. First of all no one EVER promised you anything, no one promised you a capt. seat. Here at my co. where guys can come off the street and go to the right seat of an MD-11 or make capt after 5 years and then have the audacity to tell me "hey Jack you've had your shot, get out!" is really absurd. Also consider you have no clue what awaits down the road. I know guys that have ill parents or children to provide for or some other misfortune has tripped them up in later life and they need to go a few more yrs. So as the saying goes "Be careful what you wish for you may get it".
 
tb727
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:18 pm

I'm still retiring at 60. Screw working 5 more years when I could be fishing and enjoying life! Only 32 years, 6 months and 7 days until the big day!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:25 pm



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 20):
I'm still retiring at 60. Screw working 5 more years when I could be fishing and enjoying life!

I certainly understand your plan and I'm not criticizing you at all but I too remember a time many years ago( I was already a 727 capt.) when I said "I'm out of here at 55, yep that's the plan" and somewhere along the road life changed, not for the worse but it changed.
 
tozairport
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:25 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
I know guys that have ill parents or children to provide for or some other misfortune has tripped them up in later life and they need to go a few more yrs.

Quite a few people have used similar excuses to cross picket lines too. It still does not make it right. What has transpired over the last few days is the second most selfish thing I has ever seen in aviation, no other way to cut it. The very senior just gave themselves 5 more years at the top of the totem pole, while EVERYONE on the lower rungs gets the droppings. Forget "life changing", you knew the deal when you signed up for the job and now at the 11th hour the deal has been changed to benefit a few. Add to this that the law change has done NOTHING to make the skies safer, then the hypocrisy of the day really makes for a bitter pill.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:10 pm

It has been signed by the President and is now law.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-pilots-age-65-bill-into-law.html
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting Tozairport (Reply 22):
Forget "life changing", you knew the deal when you signed up for the job and now at the 11th hour the deal has been changed to benefit a few.

What is that supposed to mean? "knew the deal..?" "..and now in the 11th hour" maybe if you mean for me but over the last few years this has been in the works there have been 1000s of guys who left without a choice.I'm always remembering what a buddy had told to him back in the 70s when he interviewed with UA. "would you take this job if I told you that you'd NEVER make capt"? At the time that was a real possibility but guys keep taking the jobs didn't they? And really I bet you don't find that many that will go to 65 anyway.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:20 pm



Quoting Tozairport (Reply 22):
The very senior just gave themselves 5 more years at the top of the totem pole, while EVERYONE on the lower rungs gets the droppings.

I'm not surprised one bit. Welcome to your union.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 15):
I am still firmly against it.

Why?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:45 pm



Quoting Tozairport (Reply 22):
The very senior just gave themselves 5 more years at the top of the totem pole, while EVERYONE on the lower rungs gets the droppings

I would say that any junior pilot that feels this way is being pretty selfish too. The only reason a young pilot would feel the way you describe is if they selfishly believed they had some entitlement to a fast upgrade. But no such entitlement exists.


Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 8):
My pilot group (a regional airline) is completely furious about it.

Why are you furious? Do you think you are entitled to some kind of fast upgrade? Do you think you deserve the job of captain more than someone who is 61? I'm sorry, but you sound pretty selfish.
 
2H4
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 13):
Sure people say they should or should not, but everyone has an ulterior motive they're disguising.

If 60 is age discrimination, then 65 is too.

Too many people seem to be forming a motive/opinion and then searching for evidence to support it.

Wouldn't it be more prudent to first examine all the evidence gathered over the years (with regard to the safety and risk of keeping older pilots employed) and allow the resulting conclusion to - itself - determine the retirement age?

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:16 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
And really I bet you don't find that many that will go to 65 anyway.

This reminds me of a former USAirways Captain by the name of Thomas Block. He wrote for FLYING and before that Plane & Pilot and probably other publications as well. He took early retirement (if I recall correctly he was in is mid 50s) because there really wasn't any incentive for him to stick around. He was a captain on the 767, so moving up for him meant the A330. It wasn't appealing to him because he'd still be flying the same routes he was currently bidding. The airline also offered an attractive package for him to retire early as well.


Personally, I feel that if a pilot can pass the required checks (line, sim, medical, etc) they should be allowed to keep their seat as long as they desire. As CosmicCruiser pointed out, many will simply leave on their own before 65, or even 60 (most likely due to being fed up with the industry). I find it hard to believe the upgrade times will be significantly affected by this ruling alone.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
ckfred
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:03 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Why did they oppose it and then support it? Why was APA against it? Wouldn't it mean more, richer members and their respective dues?

The reason is that AA has a lot of junior captains and senior F/Os who haven't been able to move up since 9/11, because of the downturn in the industry. Now, if AA was expecting several hundred captains to retire each year, that number is probably going to be cut in half. That will make it that much longer for F/Os, who expected to be captains several years ago, to keep flying in the right-hand seat.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:18 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
I bet you don't find that many that will go to 65 anyway.

Agreed.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Why was APA against it?

It handcuffs the pilots and union to negotiate. Undoubtedly the airline will use this as leverage in negotiations for a new pilot contract. We could ultimately see a complete restructuring of benefits and retirement for APA guys.

Got this email from Jim today...

Dammit, I hate him now---------------------------
Subject: Age 65 signed into law by President Bush
Reply-To: "CA Ronald Hunt ORD Domicile Chairman"

If you wish to reply to this e-mail, click here


FYI -
Press ReleaseSource: White House Press Office

Statement by the Press Secretary
Thursday December 13, 9:33 pm ET


WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--On Thursday, December 13, 2007, the President signed into law:
H.R. 4343, the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act," which raises the mandatory retirement age from 60 years to 65 years for pilots serving on commercial passenger flights within the United States.


More information as it becomes available.
Fly safe.
Captain Ron Hunt - Chicago APA Chairman
Captain Mike McClellan - Chicago APA Vice Chairman


The pilots aren't happy.  no 
 
taxpilot
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:23 pm

Easy guys, easy. Those currently flying in junior slots will appreciate it in the long run. Congratulations to my contemporaries who choose to stay on. I chose to bail in 1982, after the 1981 Air Traffic Controllers strike and the airline recession of the early 1980s. Talk to the grey haired guys about their experiences of those days. I enjoyed my military and airline flying, but life is too short to be waiting for recalls, interviews or doing something that you're not currently enjoying.

Your time will definitely come, sooner than you think.

Supply and demand was definitely a problem for pilots following Viet Nam (as it was following WWII). I know, that was ancient history. Today, there seems to be a reversing trend. Sixty to sixty-five is definitely not what it was in the "old days". I hope the younger pilots of today enjoy what your doing and polish your skills. Your time will definitely come.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:55 pm



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 29):
The reason is that AA has a lot of junior captains and senior F/Os who haven't been able to move up since 9/11, because of the downturn in the industry. Now, if AA was expecting several hundred captains to retire each year, that number is probably going to be cut in half. That will make it that much longer for F/Os, who expected to be captains several years ago, to keep flying in the right-hand seat.

You just answered the question of why it won't make much of a difference. If the industry was stagnant, with no growth, I would agree. However, if you look at the growth in the entire industry, there will still be upward movement and it will be caused by the expansion.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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fxramper
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:25 am

This is APA Communications Committee Chairman Captain Karl Schricker with the APA Information Hotline for Friday, December 14.

PRESIDENT BUSH SIGNS AGE 65 RETIREMENT INTO LAW: Considering we have a government that often takes months, if not years, to resolve controversial issues, it was remarkable to see powerful politicians fast-track legislation this week. A stand-alone bill increasing the airline pilot retirement standard to 65 years was introduced and passed by the U.S. House of Representatives on Tuesday, accepted without objection by the U.S. Senate on Wednesday and signed into law by the president on Thursday.

This action effectively ends the debate regarding airline pilot retirement age that has been going on for decades. In spite of this legislative defeat, we should be proud of our safety-based defense of the previous retirement standard. Over the last three years alone, we have had 13 specific legislative victories as we fought off an increase. We demonstrated time and again how engaged our membership was as we blanketed Capitol Hill with thousands of letters and e-mails. We thank all of you who have been personally engaged in this battle. We fought the good fight and unlike many others, our commitment to safety and the position our membership overwhelmingly supported never wavered. In the end, we were the last ones standing.

Effective yesterday, Thursday, a retirement age of 65 is available to all airline pilots who have not already turned 60. Here at AA, a normal full retirement will still be available at age 60 and continue through age 65. Under this new law, domestically both working pilots may be over 60; however, on international flights, the more restrictive International Civil Aviation Organization provision only allowing one pilot over 60 will be utilized. Our Negotiating Committee will engage management in discussions regarding the scheduling and assigning of crewmembers over the age of 60 in the international division.

We know this is a passionate issue for many of you and your APA leadership is painfully aware of how this further exacerbates the stagnation problems that plague this airline. Negotiating proposals and positions that are already on the table address stagnation and will attempt to mitigate the adverse effects of this increase in retirement age to the greatest extent possible.

In light of the larger implications of the Section 6 negotiation we are engaged in, we must all remain professional and unified. We cannot allow any of these stagnation issues or frustrations to fracture our solidarity. Safety and professionalism must prevail in the cockpit. If needed, utilize the tools available to you, such as “do not pair with” and Professional Standards to keep safety and unity intact.


We fought a good fight and held off a change as long as possible. Now we will shift our resources to mitigate the adverse effects. Stay professional, stay safe and stay unified!
 
greg3322
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:35 am

I just received this email from the FAA:

InFO - President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law
Notice Number: NOTC1079


Subject:

President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law, Affecting Pilots Under Part 121
Purpose:

This InFO announces the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act" (the Act), effective immediately, December 13, 2007, and highlights key provisions of the Act.
Background:

In November, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) revised the maximum age for certain pilots in international operations from age 60 to age 65. Until 12/13/07, the United States, an ICAO member state, limited its pilots operating under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 121 to age 60. Now those pilots may continue until age 65, as specified in the Act.
Discussion:

Key provisions of the Act include the following:

. As of 12/13/07, part 121, § 121.383(c), specifying age 60, ceases to be effective.



. A pilot age 60+ acting as pilot in command (PIC) in international operations must be paired with a pilot under age 60 (consistent with the current ICAO requirement).



. In domestic operations both pilots may be age 60+.



. It permits the continued employment of a pilot who reaches age 60 on or after 12/13/07.



. It permits the employment as a new-hire a pilot who reached age 60 before 12/13/07.



. A pilot age 60+ will not be subjected to different, greater, or more frequent medical exams.



. Any pilot age 60+ must hold a first-class medical certificate, renewable on a 6-month cycle.



. Any air carrier employing pilots age 60+ must adjust its training program to ensure such pilots' skill and judgment continue at acceptable levels.



. Any pilot age 60+ must undergo a line check at 6-month intervals.



. For a pilot age 60+ acting as second in command (SIC), a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation may substitute for a required line check.


Recommended Action:

Directors of safety, directors of operations, chief pilots, trainers, and pilots under part 121 should be aware of the Act and should collaborate immediately in implementing its provisions.
The exact language of the Act can be downloaded at the following public Web site:

http://thomas.loc.gov . In the "Search Bill Text" box click on "Bill Number," enter "HR 4343" and click Search.
An InFO contains valuable information for operators that should help them meet certain administrative, regulatory, or operational requirements with relatively low urgency or impact on safety.

For more information on this and other InFO's please go to the following URL:

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...line_operators/airline_safety/info
 
AirlineBrat
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:00 am

It's about time. Life expectancy is far higher than it was the the 60 rule was created. Besides, experience comes with time in the cockpit. If something was to go wrong while I was on an aircraft, I would much prefer to have a 60-65 year old pilot behind the wheel than someone with 5 years of commercial flying time.
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
Lono
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:31 am



Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 34):
. It permits the employment as a new-hire a pilot who reached age 60 before 12/13/07.

What does this mean?

Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 34):
. A pilot age 60+ will not be subjected to different, greater, or more frequent medical exams.

I know nothing of pilot regulations but don't they go on to counter this statement with these?

Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 34):
. Any pilot age 60+ must hold a first-class medical certificate, renewable on a 6-month cycle.



Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 34):
. Any air carrier employing pilots age 60+ must adjust its training program to ensure such pilots' skill and judgment continue at acceptable levels.



Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 34):
. Any pilot age 60+ must undergo a line check at 6-month intervals.



Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 34):
For a pilot age 60+ acting as second in command (SIC), a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation may substitute for a required line check.

And how can this not cost the airlines more money ....

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 35):
I would much prefer to have a 60-65 year old pilot behind the wheel than someone with 5 years of commercial flying time.

Yes especially up here in the great white north...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
juventus
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:30 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
I'm not sure how you arrived at that. At least here there's not that much diff between a new capt. hourly rate and a topped out capt. and a new capt. costs the co. a lot in initial trg.

NEGATIVE. Is a lot more expensive to pay a very senior captains than to train a new hires. Why do you think the fractionals love hiring old retire airline guys??? They go to a fractional at the age of 60, work for 4-5 years, and just when they're about to start making good money, they retire for good. The fractionals/flight departments much rather hire and pay for training than pay captain's salaries.

This decision is going to cost the airlines a lot of money.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:54 pm



Quoting Juventus (Reply 37):
Is a lot more expensive to pay a very senior captains than to train a new hires

What I said was that the diff between a new capt and one that has maxed out his/her hourly rate is not that much. I understand about the "fractionals" as you say but I can say also that at least here the pilot's salaries are a VERY small part of flt ops budget! They wouldn't want you to think that but it's true.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:52 pm



Quoting Lono (Reply 36):
What does this mean?

It means that you can be hired at a Part 121 air carrier at the age of 60 or older (up to 65).

Quoting Lono (Reply 36):
I know nothing of pilot regulations but don't they go on to counter this statement with these?

Not really. Anyone who obtains a First Class Medical certificate must have it renewed every 6 months by an Aviation Medical Examiner.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
lowrider
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 27):
Wouldn't it be more prudent to first examine all the evidence gathered over the years (with regard to the safety and risk of keeping older pilots employed) and allow the resulting conclusion to - itself - determine the retirement age

That approach would never work due to excess rationality and logic. You know we can't use those when writing regs. When I asked this question to a rep from a certain union, I was told that such a study would take too long and would be too expensive. When I asked his age he told me he was 59. Draw your own conclusions.
Proud OOTSK member
 
calpilot
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:16 pm

Many issues,

The sham of it all is:

1. Taking the FAA out of the NPRM; congress has no business getting involved with the matter behind the FAA,

2. Ok so here we are fixing the great injustice brought on against old fart airlines pilots in the name of safer skys for the traveling public. How can they continue to make FAA ATC controllers with much valuable experience retire at age 55? Is that not age discrimination, is that not depriving the public of important experence in a highly technical, safety sensitive area?

I'd like the ex-pilot/accountant (or anyone) to MSG me and explain to me how he thinks this is going to effect my frozen defined benefit lump sum payout plan, my reduced b-fund contributions based on lower seniority, how this is going to effect my LTD premiuns when the insurance compines factor in the new age group 60 to 65? I'd really like to see some real studies on life expectancy charts with regards to retirement ages vs longevity?

I don't know the answers, but I do know that like many things in congress or the presidents office, no one has thought about the big picture, just the things they want to for themselves.
 
ATCtower
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:52 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
Don't you think it's time the US got in sync with the rest of the world? If you can have over 60 pilots flying into/out of the US why the big stink?
You'd better get ready because ICAO is looking at age 67! At my last physical, my examiner showed me the draft proposal.

I am kind of surprised no one has brought up the fact that someone at age 65 in Europe may be significantly healthier than someone of the same age in the United States. According to world factbook, most European countries have a higher life expectancy rate than that of the US, and generally a healthier lifestyle. I am all for pilots remaining associated with their airline regardless of age to an extent. There should be some perameters set however relating to positions they can hold. At a certain age duties should be shifted so lives are not in danger should something happen. I am not quite as familiar with airline operations as I would like but my recommendation past a certain age would be along the lines of a simulator instructor or a check pilot, or something of the like.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:35 pm

The younger pilots are angry because they understand the power of compounding interest. To get as big a 401(k) as possible, you need to get as much money in as early as possible. This delays by years a younger pilot's ability to make large contributions to their 401(k) or IRA while there is still time for the interest to pile up.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 39):
Quoting Lono (Reply 36):
I know nothing of pilot regulations but don't they go on to counter this statement with these?


Not really. Anyone who obtains a First Class Medical certificate must have it renewed every 6 months by an Aviation Medical Examiner.

The grumblings are that first class medical requirements will be changed to every 12 calendar months for those under 60.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Lono
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:24 am



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 39):
It means that you can be hired at a Part 121 air carrier at the age of 60 or older (up to 65).

Ok so if you are already out of your original airline you can start over at another carrier???

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 39):
Not really. Anyone who obtains a First Class Medical certificate must have it renewed every 6 months by an Aviation Medical Examiner.



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 43):
The grumblings are that first class medical requirements will be changed to every 12 calendar months for those under 60.

I was not sure about the regs.... sound like it still may change..???
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:49 am



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 39):
Not really. Anyone who obtains a First Class Medical certificate must have it renewed every 6 months by an Aviation Medical Examiner.

Depends on where you are. I have a Singapore and JAA license, both of which require a Class I medical annually. For the JAA, once you're over 60 the medical is only valid for 6 months.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Flighty
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:11 am



Quoting Tozairport (Reply 22):
The very senior just gave themselves 5 more years at the top of the totem pole, while EVERYONE on the lower rungs

It actually cuts the number of jobs. Each guy gets more years. Equal number of work years will be needed. So, fewer guys will have careers at all.

Quoting Juventus (Reply 37):
This decision is going to cost the airlines a lot of money.

It will hurt the legacies and WN. It will help B6 and FL. Their competitors' costs just went up. This law will have immediate effects, more than tripling the number of pilots above age 58 by 2012. Assuming most stick around to 65, which most guys probably will. Why not?...

It's possible this will put downward pressure on pilot salaries. With increased costs, airlines may have no ability to grant wage increases, or may indeed ask for paycuts. There may be no budget (or willingness from passengers) to pay increased costs over this situation.
 
planemaker
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:44 am



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 20):
Only 32 years, 6 months and 7 days until the big day!

The funny thing is that you might want to retire even earlier.... within 30 years they will definitely have airliners that are single-pilot and you won't have a junior buddy on the flight desk to tell your fishing stories to.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 32):
However, if you look at the growth in the entire industry, there will still be upward movement and it will be caused by the expansion.

Well, short term it will relieve the pilot shortage scare that has generated a few threads on A.net... but there is major industry consolidation that is going to happen in around 5 years and there won't be the demand for pilots that there is now as there will be major fleet rationalizations.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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par13del
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:40 pm

ATCtower reply 42 states something no one is really looking at in our new global dominion, we expect everyone to conform to one section of the global society's rules. As the European members say, its about time the US goes along with the international standards, make's no difference if the life expectancy and health of the US is lower than the EU and rest of the world, after all, that has absolutely nothing to do with this issue right? It could also mean that if the US went along with the lifestyles and products of the rest of the world their health issues would be the same, are we seeing a trend here?

On another note with this issue, I work for a company that penalizes early retirement, most companies do, even if current airlines do not, rest assured that this is on the way, companies have to offset the increased cost of business as it relates to maintaining pilots beyond age 60, those who presently do not want to work beyond 60 better look at getting out now before there is any re-negotiation of contracts. One thing missing in all this - it may be I have not done enough research - is what percentage of the work force this regulation relates to want to work and is looking forward to working beyond age 60, somehow this smacks of life in normal, those who it affects are not out there pushing, pulling and fighting for and against, just the so called vocal minority, this is being pushed as usual by those who know whats best for all, even if they have never spent a day in flight school, after all, you don't have to be a pilot to know whats good for them, we see it here on a daily basis, not much difference from the real world.

Now where are the ATC folks on this issue, I smell a lawsuit, how can one section of the aviation industry be forced by rule / law to retire at 55????


Cheers
 
Pihero
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RE: Retirment Age 65 About To Be Reailty In US

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:48 pm

A few comments, if I may:

  • The age sixty rule was passed totally arbitrarily, without any objective basis.
  • The age sixty-five rule came after some very long and extensive research on aging and health. The fact that life expectancy had gone up nearly ten years during the 60-rule era basically means that ol;d age has been pushed up by the same amount.
  • The rule will apply to those young bucks who scream for positions now, forgetting that the previous generation - the baby boomers - has gone to some very lengthy periods of depressed job markets, which is by far not the case at this moment. I'd like somebody to give me the careers of some geriatrics now and compare it to the fast track the younger ones have seen.
  • If at age 28 someone is already looking for some prime fishing time in thirty-two years, I might question their motivation. There are quite a few jobs that would allow some fishing week-ends right now.
  • How does someone give a monetary value on experience ?
  • And who is going to pay for the pensions ?

just my two cents.
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