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SKAirbus
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CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:05 pm

According to an article on epn.dk (http://epn.dk/industri/article1204734.ece), SAS Denmark looks very likely to order CRJ 700 and 900 aircraft to replace the recently dropped Dash 8.Q400 type... This will be discussed at a board meeting of SAS Denmark on Monday...

Quote:
"SAS er på vej til at indkøbe nye fly fra canadiske Bombardier, som afløser for de skrottede og udskældte Dash-fly. Mandag er der bestyrelsesmøde i SAS, hvor man blandt andet skal diskutere hvilke fly, der permanent skal sættes ind i stedet for de 27 droppede Dash 8 Q400-fly, som i efteråret var involveret i tre alvorlige havarier i SAS-regi."

Quote:
"Ritzau erfarer, at SAS Danmark på bestyrelsesmødet indstiller, at Dash-flyene erstattes med jetfly af typen CRJ 700 og 900 fra Bombardier".

I think that these aircraft will only replace the Q400s in SAS Denmark's fleet but will SAS Sweden also follow suit if a decision is made on Monday to order the CRJ700/900? What about Widerøe will they use CRJ aircraft on previous Q400 routes?... I'm guessing Bombardier will give SAS a very good deal on these aircraft after the three accidents...

Anyway please discuss!!

[Edited 2007-12-16 04:09:17]
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OHLHD
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:39 pm

That is a good decision especially the CRJ-900 is a very comfortable aircraft. The E190/195 would fit too but I guess there are some discounts possible.  Smile
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:53 pm



Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
I think that these aircraft will only replace the Q400s in SAS Denmark's fleet but will SAS Sweden also follow suit if a decision is made on Monday to order the CRJ700/900?

It's not SAS Denmark who decide, it's SAS Airline. I.e. the decision on Q400 is a SAS Group matter and is decided by the board and management of the SAS Group (although SAS DK and the other probably have been consulted). Unfortunatly is the article you refering from not very accurate and contains a few errors regarding this.
 
icna05e
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:19 pm

SAS seems to be running against the flow here! Operators are generally talking about replacing regional jets with turboprop here and there. What about the supposed fuel savings on short distances?
I guess they don't have so many options, they could have stricken a deal with Bombardier. I just feel strange to replace turboprops these days.
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:47 pm

I'm kind of surprised they stuck with Bombardier, considering the problems with their Q400s. But this should work out well for SAS, especially if they don't get any of the fuel-guzzling -200s.
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
Alessandro
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:18 pm

Basically Bombardier has go give a really good price to save their face, perhaps this is the only option SAS can afford?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:30 pm

It's not really surprising that SAS are likely to go for Bombardier... Bombardier will no doubt offer a very good price for the aircraft, hopefully eliminating the need to pay compensation to SAS if it is demanded...

What i wonder is how many frames they might order? Maybe 20 to begin with? I think some previous Dash 8 routes are performing quite well using larger equipment..

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 3):
Operators are generally talking about replacing regional jets with turboprop here and there.

From a personal point of view i'm glad they want to replace the Q400 with RJs... i don't like flying turboprops.. Even the Q400 is quite noisy and shaky inside albeit less so than other props.. I'm still hoping they will go for Embraer... But it seems very unlikely now.
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aa1818
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:32 pm



Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
I'm kind of surprised they stuck with Bombardier, considering the problems with their Q400s. But this should work out well for SAS, especially if they don't get any of the fuel-guzzling -200s.

I would have thought that ATRs would have been a good replacement. But I guess the dicounts must be significant enough from Bombardier to make them go with RJs.

AA1818
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Viscount724
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:01 pm



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 7):
I would have thought that ATRs would have been a good replacement. But I guess the dicounts must be significant enough from Bombardier to make them go with RJs.

The ATR is significantly slower than the Q400. SK used their Q400s on some fairly long sectors, up to about 3 hours in a few cases if not mistaken. ATR flight time on those routes would be quite a bit longer.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:06 pm

SAS in all their statements were on one hand saying the Q400 had lost the confidence of the traveling public there, and on another hand very complimentary towards Bombardier. At the time I thought it was to protect their butt from lawsuits. But now it kind of makes sense if this article is true. I would imagine Bombardier may even take back the Q400's as part of the deal.
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:07 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
Quoting AA1818 (Reply 7):
I would have thought that ATRs would have been a good replacement. But I guess the dicounts must be significant enough from Bombardier to make them go with RJs.

The ATR is significantly slower than the Q400. SK used their Q400s on some fairly long sectors, up to about 3 hours in a few cases if not mistaken. ATR flight time on those routes would be quite a bit longer

Not only are they slower, but their cargo capacity is significantly worse. ATR "forgot" to stretch the cargo hold when the ATR-42 was stretched to become the ATR-72

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 3):
SAS seems to be running against the flow here! Operators are generally talking about replacing regional jets with turboprop here and there

That's mainly in the 30-50 seat market. Remember SAS needs a 70-100 seat aircraft as their Q400 replacement and the CRJ-700/900 fits this need.
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:08 pm



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 9):
I would imagine Bombardier may even take back the Q400's as part of the deal.

Well, SAS' Q400 are leased from Bombardier so they already own them
 
lrdc9
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:24 pm

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not more puddle jumper jets!!
Just say NO to scabs.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:31 pm



Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
I'm kind of surprised they stuck with Bombardier, considering the problems with their Q400s.

I'm pretty sure Bombardier flashed some shiney jets in front of their faces with pretty price tags attahced to them.

Quoting Lrdc9 (Reply 12):
NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not more puddle jumper jets!!

The way of the future. They aren't going anywhere. In fact, expect for the turbo-prop to make a comeback in the U.S.
What gets measured gets done.
 
SXDFC
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:38 pm

I thought SAS said they weren't going to order from Bombardier due to the DH8-400Q accidents, and from what I understand the CRJ family is owned by Bombardier aren't they?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:01 pm



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 14):
I thought SAS said they weren't going to order from Bombardier due to the DH8-400Q accidents, and from what I understand the CRJ family is owned by Bombardier aren't they?

In the end, it's always about the dollors. Better deal through Bombardier.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 14):
I thought SAS said they weren't going to order from Bombardier due to the DH8-400Q accidents, and from what I understand the CRJ family is owned by Bombardier aren't they?

SAS never said so. Much of the "war" between Bombardier and SAS has been made up in the press
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:47 pm



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 16):
SAS never said so. Much of the "war" between Bombardier and SAS has been made up in the press

That is why i'm a little sceptical about SAS ordering Bombardier again.. Although the CRJ series doesn't have any of the same problems that the Q400 had, the name Bombardier has received a bad reputation in Scandinavia and the press might use this announcement to create more trouble!

But that is on the assumption that the public are stupid.. Let's hope they aren't!!
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Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 17):
That is why i'm a little sceptical about SAS ordering Bombardier again.. Although the CRJ series doesn't have any of the same problems that the Q400 had, the name Bombardier has received a bad reputation in Scandinavia and the press might use this announcement to create more trouble!

Not really. It is only the Q400 that has a bad reputation. The Danes doesn't seems to have any problem flying Cimber (often operated on behalf of SAS) and their CRJ-200 and in Norway has Wideroe and their Dash-8-100/300 a very good reputation
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:20 pm

Speak of Widerøe... Will the CRJ be used to replace the Q400s? Afterall their Q400s weren't often used at STOL airports... the main airports they were used at seem to be TRD, TRP, CPH, SVG and BGO...
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scalebuilder
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 19):
Speak of Widerøe... Will the CRJ be used to replace the Q400s? Afterall their Q400s weren't often used at STOL airports... the main airports they were used at seem to be TRD, TRP, CPH, SVG and BGO...

They may be able to transition to some jet-equipment, but like you state, most of Widerøe's operations are based at very small airports where STOL capabilities are essential and simply a must. They will need a different option than the CRJ.

My guess is that they will expand their fleet of Dash-100 and 300 (if available).
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
sevenair
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:59 pm

Ouch, what is this going to do to profitability, and ticket prices?
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 20):
They may be able to transition to some jet-equipment, but like you state, most of Widerøe's operations are based at very small airports where STOL capabilities are essential and simply a must. They will need a different option than the CRJ.

My guess is that they will expand their fleet of Dash-100 and 300 (if available).

The Q400 was never used on any of the "STOL-routes"

Wideroes operations must be divided into two parts. One part in the STOL operations where they fly on routes subsidized by the Norwegian government, mainly on Northern- and Middle-Norway. All these routes are operated by -100. The other part is the regional part based at TRF (TRF-SVG/TRD/BGO/CPH) in addition to some routes from BGO/SVG to the UK, TRD-CPH, OSL-GOT and BGO-BOO/TOS. The problem with the -300 is that it's too small and too slow for many of the routes that used to be operated by the Q400 and is therefore not a suitable long term replacement.

Wideroe had 4 Q400, and was about to take delivery of a 5th, and it's these that needs replacement, not the -100 that operated on the many STOL-airports along the Norwegian coast, which has nothing to do with the Q400 and -300 operations by WF

[Edited 2007-12-16 12:08:02]
 
brissedk
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:37 pm

There is actually another option for SK: Outsource all regional flying to partner-airlines who actually specialise in that sort of flying, and then concentrate on regular mainline flying for SK.

1st step has already been taken a while back, when QI started CRJ flying in SK colours. It is my perception that it is an arrangement which suits SK excellently, and I haven't heard any complaints from QI either. Although, that might change now when SK starts MD80 service CPH-OTP in direct competition with QI. Don't think the guys in Sønderborg (HQ of QI)liked that move.

I would even recommend to expand that co-operation and put in some sort of incentive for the regional to further develop new routes. That would split the risk when starting a new route, instead of SK bearing it all. Further it would provide useful feed to the 3 hubs, which would strengthen SKs overall network.

Just a bit of food for thought...

Regards,
BJ
Frequent flyer based in CPH - mostly heading to: OSL, HEL, KEF, FAE and EWR
 
OHLHD
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:40 pm

Does WF operate currently a F100? I believe I saw that in Amadeus?

BTW, I will try to take pictures of the Q400 standing around at ARN when I fly back from Norway.  Smile
 
scalebuilder
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:47 pm



Quoting BrisseDK (Reply 23):
Outsource all regional flying to partner-airlines who actually specialise in that sort of flying, and then concentrate on regular mainline flying for SK

Great thoughts. Though Widerøe is supposed to be exceptional when it comes to service at desolate airports where "nobody would even consider serving or flying". This SAS affiliate is a perfect match for SAS, and they could leverage the talent found in this company way beyond the levels of today.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
scalebuilder
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:56 pm



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 22):
The Q400 was never used on any of the "STOL-routes"

I completely agree, so I stand corrected. Should WF get any CRJ's, it would be utilized on routes where they previously used the Q400. That could work out well too.

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 22):
The problem with the -300 is that it's too small and too slow for many of the routes that used to be operated by the Q400 and is therefore not a suitable long term replacement.

I was not aware of this. What other option is there for WF? They serve my home town (Dash 8-100), flights pretty much sold out every time I try to book. I believe they plan to upgrade from a Dash-8-100 to a 300 just to get a few more seats in the market.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:51 pm



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 24):
Does WF operate currently a F100? I believe I saw that in Amadeus?

They are wet-leasing a Fokker 100, mainly used on the TRD-CPH route
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:27 pm

I'd say the general reliability of the CRJ vs. the unreliable Q400 is known worldwide. They're completely different and although both are now produced under the Bombardier name, Canadair knew how to build a reliable plane. I don't forsee an qualms on this if it comes to fruition.
 
OHLHD
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:29 pm



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 27):
They are wet-leasing a Fokker 100, mainly used on the TRD-CPH route

Do you know by chance from whom?  Smile
 
Someone83
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:42 pm



Quoting OHLHD (Reply 29):
Quoting Someone83 (Reply 27):
They are wet-leasing a Fokker 100, mainly used on the TRD-CPH route

Do you know by chance from whom? Smile

Blueline

In addition do they also lease a Fokker 50 from Denim
 
CRJ900
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:46 pm

I won't be surprised if SAS enters into a big cooperation with Cimber Air, which already fly CRJs for SAS. Surely, it must be easier and cheaper to let Cimber take new CRJ700/900 and fly them for SAS... they already have CRJ-certified pilots and mx-experience with them...?
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icna05e
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:08 pm

hm. And doesn't Cimber Air operate ATR? They could order more to be used on shorter Q400 routes...
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:04 am



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 31):
I won't be surprised if SAS enters into a big cooperation with Cimber Air, which already fly CRJs for SAS. Surely, it must be easier and cheaper to let Cimber take new CRJ700/900 and fly them for SAS... they already have CRJ-certified pilots and mx-experience with them...?

Yep. Imagine the costs of retraining your pilots, maintenance going in a totally different direction, F/A training, ground crew training, etc. Boy, would just seem more simple to contract out the work. Would probably end up being cheaper for them that way anyway.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:20 am



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
Yep. Imagine the costs of retraining your pilots, maintenance going in a totally different direction, F/A training, ground crew training, etc. Boy, would just seem more simple to contract out the work. Would probably end up being cheaper for them that way anyway.

Call me ignorant but aren't the flight decks of the Q400 and CRJ700/900 relatively similar?? Even though one is a turboprop and the other a jet.... Maybe this isn't the case! What about commonality with the CRJ200... are the flight decks the same?
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scalebuilder
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:33 am



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 33):
Would probably end up being cheaper for them that way anyway.

You're right if we think short term. But longer term (say 5 years or more) it would likely be cheaper for SAS to train their own crew and operate their own aircraft.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: CRJ Likely To Replace SAS Q400 Aircraft

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:28 am



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 34):
Call me ignorant but aren't the flight decks of the Q400 and CRJ700/900 relatively similar?? Even though one is a turboprop and the other a jet.... Maybe this isn't the case! What about commonality with the CRJ200... are the flight decks the same?

Not remotely similar. Remember, two different companies initially developed these aircraft and they still have retained much the the systems from their prototypes, albeit far more advanced. No commonality what-so-ever. Although I see bombardier in the future doing such a thing to an exstent.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 35):
You're right if we think short term. But longer term (say 5 years or more) it would likely be cheaper for SAS to train their own crew and operate their own aircraft.

That could be the case.
What gets measured gets done.