BR715-A1-30
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Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:14 am

Hello All you fellow nerds, geeks, and aviation professionals

Recently, I had the displeasure of traveling from STL to ORD. Due to the "Weather" flights were being cancelled and seeing as how I was on STBY, I had to suffer. Granted, I was on STBY, so it is the risk I have to take, but it seems like EVERY SINGLE TIME I go through O'Horror, there are ALWAYS several delays, cancellations, bumps, or just A Million and one IROPS.

Granted, it is one of the busiest airports in the world, but so is ATL, and despite me flying into ATL a LOT, I have never seen such chaos as I have seen at O'Horror (though I have seen plenty).

I'm sure everybody knows of the Ice Storm that recently passed through O'Horror, but I saw Untied cancelling flights left and right, but there were also some taking off. When I asked for explanations, I was told it was the WX. But if that was the case, how come other Untied flights, American flights, and other flights were taking off. 2 flights to IND were cancelled, bumping the other pax to P.S. on the other flights, leaving me stranded.

Granted, like I said, I was on STBY, so that is the risk I take, but even had I been a paying passenger, which I have been, I still probably would have had troubles like before.

I have NEVER been able to use O'Horror without some kind of trouble from Untied.

So, aside from that, and JFK, what is going on here? Are there just some wussy pilots out there who "don't feel like flying through the weather." or are there legitimate cancellations going on for some odd reason or another?
Puhdiddle
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:18 am

Why does PHL have to be a Phrightfest? ORD is not the only one with these issues. Unlike PHL, ORD is at least doing something about it w/ their master plan of realigning runways to allow for multi-operations.
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:23 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Are there just some wussy pilots out there who "don't feel like flying through the weather." or are there legitimate cancellations going on for some odd reason or another?

How about some wuzzy pilots not daring to take off without deicing ...??? Pardon me - but this must 'Ignorant Post of the Day' ....
- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
 
PITrules
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:31 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
I saw Untied cancelling flights left and right, but there were also some taking off. When I asked for explanations, I was told it was the WX. But if that was the case, how come other Untied flights, American flights, and other flights were taking off.

So because several flights are canceled due to the airport/airspace running at reduced capacity (due to WEATHER), that means all flights should be canceled?
FLYi
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:32 am

Ok, there's perspective. You have two bad experiences so that negates the millions of passengers who successfully transit O'Hare every year. Sorry you beat the odds on bad experiences, but I've flown through O'Hare at least five times this year and was never significantly delayed. We need to base our statements on facts and not our own anecdotal stories.

[Edited 2007-12-16 17:40:50]
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tsaord
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:41 am

Weather effects ORD is a major way and add to the fact it's one of the busiest airports in the worlds just adds to the chaos. But there is more to delays and cancellations that some passengers just don't know. "I think they can do more to get us out" and blah blah blah. If passengers knew how an airport/traffic control was handled some things could go a lot smoother. But thats asking to much.

ORD, just like other major/big airports are delay prone; some more than others. Location, weather, number of airlines, runway configuration, holidays/vacations, there so many things to factor into it.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:48 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Granted, it is one of the busiest airports in the world, but so is ATL, and despite me flying into ATL a LOT, I have never seen such chaos as I have seen at O'Horror (though I have seen plenty).

ATL doesnt quite have the problems with weather that ORD has. Chicago's locale is a double edged sword. Its ideally located for travel to Asia and Europe, but its climate is the pits. I tried living there and I lasted 3 months. I couldnt take the sudden shifts in weather. I hated Chicago.

But as for the airport, other than the weather its not all that bad. The problem ive noticed in Chicago is that if a storm comes or a weather related problem occurs, all flights are delayed all day.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
So, aside from that, and JFK, what is going on here? Are there just some wussy pilots out there who "don't feel like flying through the weather." or are there legitimate cancellations going on for some odd reason or another?

Pilots always err on the side of caution and I think thats the best way to go. It has nothing to do with the pilots being wussy. Most pilots have a military career behind them and alot of them have flown through some of the worst hell holes on earth. But its different with passenger aircraft. Its good that they are cautious.
It is what it is...
 
ripcordd
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:50 am

Dude WTF is a matter with you travling thru ORD in an Ice Storm on STNBY? And most domestic flights that day were canceled after 3pm. They have tried in the past not to cancel anythig and it blows up in there face I don't know if canceling just about every flight is the right answer either. Pilots don't have a say in which flights they cancel due to wx.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:25 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
So, aside from that, and JFK, what is going on here? Are there just some wussy pilots out there who "don't feel like flying through the weather." or are there legitimate cancellations going on for some odd reason or another?

When did you go, and who were you flying on? If it were anytime in the last two days I'll tell you it has absolutely sucked up there.

Furthermore, your comment is an insult. What do you think us "wussy pilots" are doing up there? Would you prefer we take you though severe icing like we've had? Would you prefer we land when braking action is reported as poor to nil as it has a couple times in the last two days? Would you prefer that we make our own rules and just take off when we feel like it versus sitting and waiting for our EDCT for two hours because we don't want to be "wussy pilots" who want to follow the rules?

The weather has been terrible up and down the east coast. We've had planes stuck at outstations, delayed upwards of four hours, etc. When one flight doesn't make it on time it cascades through the entire system. When you have bad weather at just about every hub in the midwest and northeast you're going to have chaos. It's a mess right now. Sorry it had to mess up your nonrev travel. Then again, most people are smart enough to avoid trying to nonrev during the holidays. When everybody elses flights are cancelled and they're trying to go somewhere, they're going before you.
DMI
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:29 am

So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

I was on STBY because I was going for an airline interview, and they put me on STBY. And why do I always have problems with Untied overbooking? I know others do it as well, but it seems like...SEEMS LIKE Untied does it more than they should, leaving many passengers stranded.

Yes, these are based on my own personal observations, and I am not looking to get flamed, but am looking for legitimate answers
Puhdiddle
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:31 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

When the weather is poor, ORD is scheduled beyond capacity. Some flights go, others don't. It's got everything to do with weather.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
avek00
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:36 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
I was on STBY because I was going for an airline interview, and they put me on STBY.

If your propsective airline really loved you, they would have b ooked you positive space with an adequate level of priority to get you there and back with a minimum of fuss even during an irops period.
Live life to the fullest.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:39 am



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 11):
If your propsective airline really loved you, they would have b ooked you positive space with an adequate level of priority to get you there and back with a minimum of fuss even during an irops period.

I was telling myself that long before I left...  Silly
Puhdiddle
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:47 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal?

If you are going to work for an airline, you might want to learn some of the basics on how airlines and the FAA operate. When the weather is bad, the airport's capacity is frequently restricted.. Sometimes this means flights are just delayed, but other times when things are really bad airlines must cancel some flights because the airport simply cannot handle all the flights that are scheduled. When this happens, airlines have to make some tough decisions about what to cancel and what to still fly.

So sometimes, you will see some flights still flying while others are cancelled despite the fact that the weather is the same for all.
 
Seattle Ops
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:49 am

Dude, the weather reduces the arrival rate so that of the 95 airplanes scheduled to arrive at ORD only 72 can get a slot. all of the flights get backed up substantially. If this continues all day the operation at ORD back up and last until 3 or 4 in the morning. Crews will time out, employees can only be held over so long, add to that the possibility of deicing and you will cancel eventually. Airlines would rather pick which flights to cancel rather than be forced to cancel full flights at midnight.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:08 am



Quoting Seattle Ops (Reply 14):

You mean the 30 % rule the FAA imposes on the airlines at ORD when the weather pukes?
The folks that work there can tell us all about it. Thats why there are so many xcled trips and pax
screwed up on traveling.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 4):
Ok, there's perspective. You have two bad experiences so that negates the millions of passengers who successfully transit O'Hare every yea

To be fair, don't forget the millions last year who got screwed around when things went sour.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
eghansen
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:47 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.



Quoting Seattle Ops (Reply 14):
Dude, the weather reduces the arrival rate so that of the 95 airplanes scheduled to arrive at ORD only 72 can get a slot. all of the flights get backed up substantially. If this continues all day the operation at ORD back up and last until 3 or 4 in the morning. Crews will time out, employees can only be held over so long, add to that the possibility of deicing and you will cancel eventually. Airlines would rather pick which flights to cancel rather than be forced to cancel full flights at midnight.

Airports basically have a "clear weather capacity" and a "inclement weather capacity". In most cases, the "inclement weather capacity" is less than the "clear weather capacity". In some airports, (DEN or MCI are good examples), the inclement capacity is very close to the clear capacity. This is usually because they have parallel runways spaced far apart which permit simultaneous landing on both runways with instrument landings.

Other runways with poor runway layouts (SFO and ORD are probably the two best examples) the inclement capacity is widely divergent from the clear weather capacity. At SFO, for example, if the weather is clear, the FAA will allow landings on the two parallel runways 28L and 28R simultaneously. I believe this allows about 80 landings per hour. If the weather is inclement (usually fog in SFO), the FAA allows only 40 landings per hour. ORD has basically the same problem.

There are worse airports in bad weather. In SAN, for example, if there is late night fog, the airport closes and planes are diverted to LAX. The airline then provides bus service back to SAN which takes two hours (It has happened to me). In addition to this inconvenience, the morning flights out of SAN that were supposed to use the diverted aircraft are often canceled because the aircraft is sitting at LAX, not SAN. Fortunately, we don't have much late fog.

Hope this helps.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
ebs757
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:02 am

Travel through O'hare at least 6 times a year and never have had a problem worth complaining about.
Viva la Vida
 
JetBlueJackets
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:06 am

You have some nerve coming on these boards talking like average passenger idiot guy. I know at B6, we cancel flights just to piss people off and make life miserable for as many people as possible (sarcasm of course).

Don't like it? Take the AMTRAK or drive. People like you make working at the airport HELL.

especially flying standby, I would have told you to your face to sit down and shut up, and if you didn't like what I have to say you could go home.

[Edited 2007-12-16 21:16:41]
 
ebs757
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:13 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):

take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

Please tell me your not serious. Thats the most arrogant thing ive heard all day
Viva la Vida
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:19 am



Quoting Ebs757 (Reply 17):
Travel through O'hare at least 6 times a year and never have had a problem worth complaining about.

Let me know who I need to bribe...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
justlump
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:22 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
I was on STBY because I was going for an airline interview, and they put me on STBY. And why do I always have problems with Untied overbooking? I know others do it as well, but it seems like...SEEMS LIKE Untied does it more than they should, leaving many passengers stranded.

Gee...I hope your interview was not with "Untied". I don't think they would be very impressed with that attitude. Also, please remember that we are in the middle of the holiday season. Planes are packed. No airline would cancel a flight unless it is absolutely necessary. Every noncompleted flight costs the airline thousands of dollars in related costs and negative perception. Believe me, it is not by choice that flights are cancelled.
 
eghansen
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:26 am



Quoting JetBlueJackets (Reply 18):
You have some nerve coming on these boards talking like average passenger idiot guy. I know at B6, we cancel flights just to piss people off and make life miserable for as many people as possible (sarcasm of course).

Actually, when airlines cancel flights they try to make strategic choices for which flights to cancel. For example, if you have one flight per day ORD to Grand Cayman and 8 flights per day ORD to EWR, you will try to cancel one of the ORD-EWR flights because there is a much better chance of rebooking than on service out of Cayman.
Nowadays, it is hard to tell when the commercials end and real life begins
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:28 am

So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

I was on STBY because I was going for an airline interview, and they put me on STBY. And why do I always have problems with Untied overbooking? I know others do it as well, but it seems like...SEEMS LIKE Untied does it more than they should, leaving many passengers stranded.

Yes, these are based on my own personal observations, and I am not looking to get flamed, but am looking for legitimate answers



BR,
first good luck with the job interview, second, i hope if you are interviewing for a job at republic that you do not have to work the ual side, you already have a slanted view on ual and thats not good. had you been interviewing at ual you would have been booked POSITIVE SPACE. the airline you are interviewing with chooses to book you non rev stby, as others have posted that when the weather goes south so does the a.a.r. at ord. ual AND aal picks and chooses which flights are cncld, im surprised ual xcld a mainline and not a express flight, as the express flights usually get the ax before a mainline flight. over booking has nothing to do with your situation unless there is irregular ops, which in your case was the problem. i have seen 1 uax carrier book interviewees positive space and when they have misconnected in denver i have even seen uax get them a confirmed seat on the very next flight, it all depends on the carrier, not ual. again good luck but ual is not the villan here.
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:45 am

We have to look at two points here, none of which have to do with incompetent crews (be it in the flight deck or the tower):

1)
As others have mentioned it before, ORD (along with PHL, SFO and other so-called major airports) has an extremely poor layout. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming those people who have built ORD, because it has grown organically from the old Orchard Field into what it is today, but this doesn't solve the problem. Have a look at this shot from SFO:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matthew Wallman



What do we see?
1) Closely-spaced runway not permitting any kind of independent approaches in CAT I conditions
2) no less than FOUR runway crossings
3) Taxiways all over the place. Many of them can only take aircraft up to a certain size/weight/wingspan. Some of those taxiways can clearly not be used in CATII conditions
4) No de-icing facility at the end of any runway (ok it's California, but sometimes you see <0°C in KSFO)

All in all, I think it's incredible what number of operations the ATC staff (and pilots) can get through a crappy layout like this, on a fair weather day. As soon as conditions drop to CAT I, all hell breaks loose: You lose 50% arrival capacity, You lose 50% departure capacity. When things drop to CAT II, things get even worse: Not only do you lose more capacity (because more separation is required), but many taxiways get closed down because they are situated in the Localized Critical Area or in the Glideslope Critical Area, where aircraft may not taxi while an aircraft is on approach to the runway in question.
Long story short, arrival rate drops from 60 to 30 in CAT I, departure rate too.

If you take a look at ORD, you'll see many of these problems as well: Additionally, you only have 2 parallel runways in any direction, so one arrival runway is lost.

Have another look at this:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario Nonaka



Probably the most efficient layout you can have. In VFR (good weather) this layout has only slightly lower arrival and departures rates with 2 runways than SFO has with four. In IFR, it is far superior. It is also way more capable in IFR conditions than JFK (even tho JFK has an apparently similar layout PLUS two runways). Why?

1) Two runways with about 7500ft separation allow fully independent operations of those runways in whatever conditions
2) Taxiways are all (well except those around the General Aviation terminal) capable of taking all aircraft up to an An-225 or A380.
3) Taxiways have ample spacing to adjacent runways to allow usage in all weather conditions.
4) Every runway end has three de-icing pads for aircraft up to an An-225 or A380 EACH. This allows aircraft to be de-iced just prior to take-off roll and removes the necessity to de-ice them again and again should taxi take too long.
5) Every runway has the full length of 13123ft and allows any kind of departures (weight restrictions might apply, but are not dependent on runway)
6) Every runway has dual taxiways to speed up operations and allow bi-directional traffic flow. Spacing is sufficient for dual A380 operations as well.
7) High-speed turnoffs expedite movements and minimize runway occupancy times.
8) Localizer Critical Areas and Glideslope Critical Areas are clear of taxiways, runways and obstructions of any kind.

Result: CAT I capacity is almost identical to "fair-weather capacity". Even in CAT II/III, capacity drops are at least manageable. Problems only occur when a runway needs to be closed due to contamination (i.e. heavy snowfall), which happens, on the average about 30 hours per year.

2)
The second problem is that most US airports state their "capacity" for VFR conditions. European airports state their capacity in IFR (CAT I) conditions, thus do not take any penalties during these operations. If you have a look at the example above, you also see why LHR takes such a big hit to capacity once conditions get to CAT II: Taxiway-runway separation is too little, so things are snafu'ed.

As soon as ORD opens its new north runway (November 20, 2008), delays due to be bad weather will be greatly reduced. As soon as the whole Master Plan is completed, ORD will offer a very efficient facility once again. Let's hope this doesn't take too long.

SailorOrion
 
mbj2000
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:23 pm



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 24):
As soon as ORD opens its new north runway (November 20, 2008), delays due to be bad weather will be greatly reduced. As soon as the whole Master Plan is completed, ORD will offer a very efficient facility once again. Let's hope this doesn't take too long.

Wow, this was one of the most interesting and informative posts I've read for a long time...  Smile Welcome to my RU list!
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
ORDagent
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:51 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

Absolute B.S. Pilots don't cancel flights. The schedulers decide what flights to cancel.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 22):
Actually, when airlines cancel flights they try to make strategic choices for which flights to cancel.

 checkmark 

Loads and percentige of connecting pax, the next leg the aircraft is scheduled on among many other reasons are taken into consdieration as to what flights are cancelled. AA at ORD will premetively cancel flights on a bad weather day to ensure that as many people as possible aren't stranded at ORD overnight and such. It is considered better customer service to have people not leave their embarkation point than sleeping on the floor at ORD.

laxDUDE

I'm sorry you didin't like our fare city. Yes, the weather can be the pits but IMHO there is so much more to Chicago than the weather that truly makes it a world class city.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:40 pm

What else do you expect when you go to ORD in the winter? Unless ORD is your destination, I would never try to bypass those airports (ORD, JFK, EWR, BOS, MSP) during the winter. I always opt to go through DFW, ATL, or IAD instead. Not that the latter airports aren't prone to weather delays, the probabilities are lower.
 
kanebear
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:47 pm

You want to work for an airline, yet you have no clue how airlines work... wow. God help you should you ever fly through LHR or NRT when either are having meltdowns. THOSE are horrors. ORD is simply going through standard winter wx issues.

[Edited 2007-12-17 07:48:48]
 
BR715-A1-30
Topic Author
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:54 pm

I would like to thank the few who came on here, and answered my question with some legitimate answers without flaming me. As for wussy pilots... I am not implying that to ALL pilots, but EVERYBODY knows that there are the few, and not so proud out there who are pissed off at the world, and look for every little excuse NOT TO FLY. maybe 2% of them...

As for the inclement weather, thanks for explaining that one.

As for the clear weather, the last time I flew out of there, the weather was 65 degrees, sun shining, NO CLOUD IN THE SKY, and flights were still being cancelled. I know it was not mechanical, as I was told that it was due to WX at the arriving destination. When I FINALLY got to my destination, I was told that they had been operating smooth all day long, and that there was no inclement weather.

I have heard from others that ORD is O' Horror, and even flight attendants and pilots HATE flying through there, even on clear days.

I do not appreciate the bashing, as I am not trying to bash people. But I do know, (and so do you), that there ARE some pilots out there, who will PURPOSELY time out just so they won't have to fly. I've seen it happen before, and some of my friends have even told me they have colleagues who do it just to stay in a certain city for another day. To those pilots who do not do this, and to those who make every effort to get me and other passengers there safely, I thank you a LOT. It is because of people like you that help everybody get to their destinations without fear. To those 2% out there who will purposely mess up an operation just to benefit themselves.... Get out of the flight deck. I'm also sure that nobody on these boards is part of the 2%.
Puhdiddle
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:55 pm

Just out of curiosity, BR715.... who in the heck were you interviewing with?! When I have gone for my interviews in a different city, the airline I have interviewed with (WN & DL) has always put me on positive space travel, round trip. I never had a problem.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:30 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):
As for the clear weather, the last time I flew out of there, the weather was 65 degrees, sun shining, NO CLOUD IN THE SKY, and flights were still being cancelled. I know it was not mechanical, as I was told that it was due to WX at the arriving destination. When I FINALLY got to my destination, I was told that they had been operating smooth all day long, and that there was no inclement weather.

This is a common misconception. People assume that because the weather at their departure and arrival airport is smooth, there shouldn't be any delay. What they forget is that even weather enroute can (and does) cause delay. Not to even mention that snowballing effects delays can have throughout the system when bad weather hits even just one hub airport.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):
I am not implying that to ALL pilots, but EVERYBODY knows that there are the few, and not so proud out there who are pissed off at the world, and look for every little excuse NOT TO FLY. maybe 2% of them...

While I'm sure there might be a few pilots like this, I doubt it is even 2%. Most pilots don't want to spend another night in a mediocre hotel near the airport...it's not that glamorous. Not to mention that pilots usually only get paid when they are flying, so spending another night isn't going to earn them anything except per diem (which isn't much).
 
wingnut767
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:45 pm



Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 2):
How about some wuzzy pilots not daring to take off without deicing ...??? Pardon me - but this must 'Ignorant Post of the Day' ....

Bingo
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
glacote
Posts: 357
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:10 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Due to the "Weather" flights were being cancelled

Well have you seen what has fallen over the last few days? Do you prefer your flight canceled or crashed?

I know airlines to their best to ensure that aircrafts feel as close to an extension of your home-sweet-home as possible. But let's not forget that these are also suppose to, er..., fly.

If you end up blocked in ORD just make a quick hop to the John Hancock signature room. See the white city, the lake starting to freeze at north beach, like a white lagoon... and just relax.

Airlines/ground employees do their best. Be thankful they help you fly at all. Good luck...
 
SkyTeamTriStar
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:13 pm

Nothing in life has to be difficult only if you make it that way....

Thats life. Some things are out of your control.
 
davescj
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:19 pm

If you're merely stuck in ORD, there is a DL CRL that is quite nice. Sit back. Relax. Read the paper. Be glad you're not outside de-icing planes.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
User avatar
seabosdca
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:24 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Thread starter):
Are there just some wussy pilots out there



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):
EVERYBODY knows that there are the few, and not so proud out there who are pissed off at the world, and look for every little excuse NOT TO FLY.



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):
I do not appreciate the bashing, as I am not trying to bash people.

 boggled  irked 

Are you serious? What are the two quotes above if not bashing?

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):
As for the clear weather, the last time I flew out of there, the weather was 65 degrees, sun shining, NO CLOUD IN THE SKY, and flights were still being cancelled. I know it was not mechanical, as I was told that it was due to WX at the arriving destination. When I FINALLY got to my destination, I was told that they had been operating smooth all day long, and that there was no inclement weather.

Think for a minute about airline ops before you make wild accusations. Aircraft fly multiple legs all over the continent in the same day. Your flight could be delayed or canceled due to weather in any of the stations your aircraft flew through, in any of the stations other aircraft scheduled into your station flew through (if the scheduler determined that it was more important to get another flight out than to get yours out), or enroute between any of those places. The gate agent is not going to know exactly which bad weather caused the cancellation of your flight, so he may say something like "weather at the destination" when the bad weather was in fact somewhere else in the network.

Airlines don't like to cancel flights. It creates a lot of headaches where there were none before. If they're cancelling flights, you can bet there's a very good reason.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:28 pm

Never plan to fly through Chicago or New York/Newark/Philly during the winter without delays.

Never plan to fly through Dallas or Atlanta in the spring time without delays.

And on days when you know in advance bad weather is hitting that area - call the airline early and try to get them to reschedule you for an early morning flight the next day, or give you credit for a ticket later in the year.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 23):
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

What aircraft, where are the flights going, how many gates/ parking spots are open at the destination? Even 15 minutes difference in takeoff time with identical aircraft can make a huge difference.

BTW - do you know that pilots don't get paid to sit on the ground waiting for the weather to get better?

If the pilots come in to the airport and spend 16 hours waiting for the weather to get better, but never get their aircraft pushed back for takeoff - the time does not count.

Pilots pay is based on FLYING hours.

I'm much more worried about pilots taking off in sub-marginal conditions because they want to get their time in than 'wimp' pilots.

I know it's a cliche - but this does have validity:

"There are BOLD pilots and there are OLD pilots - but there are no OLD, BOLD pilots."
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:54 pm



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):
I do not appreciate the bashing, as I am not trying to bash people. But I do know, (and so do you), that there ARE some pilots out there, who will PURPOSELY time out just so they won't have to fly. I've seen it happen before, and some of my friends have even told me they have colleagues who do it just to stay in a certain city for another day. To those pilots who do not do this, and to those who make every effort to get me and other passengers there safely, I thank you a LOT. It is because of people like you that help everybody get to their destinations without fear. To those 2% out there who will purposely mess up an operation just to benefit themselves.... Get out of the flight deck. I'm also sure that nobody on these boards is part of the 2%

I would say that you are definately bashing pilots. You yourself even admitt that the number of pilots who do what you call avoiding flying is less than 2%. Know the number of pilots I do I would say even less than that but that is a seperate issue. Even with that low number you see your plane being canceled in horrible weather and some other plane taking off and you assume it is the pilots wussing out. Come on even if it was the pilots desicion to delay the flight cause he was uncomfortable flying in the weather wouldn't you prefer that verse crashing. You ask not to be bashed but with the questions your asking it is hard not to especially since your going into the industry. I fly through ORD on a semi regular basis and I have never had problems that were that bad, once I was delayed by 3.5hours which wouldn't have been too bad but the flight was scheduled to leave at 1030pm so it was kind of late but that was crew scheduling problems. If you dont want to be bashed for making questionably ignorant comments, think them through and make intelligent question without blaming pilots on an aviation forum, they don't like that. There are ways to get the answers you want without disrespecting pilots who might even be on this forum.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
JayDub
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 29):

You really need to educate yourself in the area of airline operations before you come on A.net, where there are plenty of airline professionals, and rip on things you appear to know nothing about.

Dispatch/Flight Control personnel do not cancel flights just because they feel like it. Nor do we just cancel the first thing that has the fewest pax (though sometimes that is a consideration). Dispatch decides if it the flight is safe and legal, Planning keeps the schedule going. If there were no cancellations, you would have flights running 6-8 hours late and 'timed-out' crews scattered all over the country.

As far as calling out "wussy pilots", keep in mind that, oftentimes, there are factors in play that the average pax (which you seem to be) have no understanding of. And better a safe pilot than one with "get there-itis".

Finally, when you fly standby...you must plan. Even if it is an airline flying you out for an interview...you can change the stuff around and bypass places like ORD. I used to get made fun of for the way I plan my non-rev trips...pulling up a full WX brief for all airports/backup plans involved...until I got a myself and a friend home in minimal time around oversells and bad WX in 2 hubs while 2 other friends got stuck for 2 days.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
who in the heck were you interviewing with?! When I have gone for my interviews in a different city, the airline I have interviewed with (WN & DL) has always put me on positive space travel, round trip. I never had a problem.

Dude...when I interviewed with Chautauqua (thank God I didn't wind up there)...they sent me standby for the interview...on 4 Mesa operated legs...on a crappy WX day in CLT. Had I not had previous non-revving experience, it would have been a nightmare. CHQ were the only airline to send me standby...and that experience played a big role in my choosing not to accept their job offer.

[Edited 2007-12-17 10:04:06]

[Edited 2007-12-17 10:06:11]
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
airplanenut
Posts: 594
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 8:46 am

RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:00 pm



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 16):
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

Don't forget that some aircraft are going to locales with better weather, and they can get a landing slot. BWI's weather was poor yesterday, but some flights got out. Mine didn't because I was going to BOS and the weather was yet worse.
Why yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist...
 
LMP737
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
ATL doesnt quite have the problems with weather that ORD has. Chicago's locale is a double edged sword. Its ideally located for travel to Asia and Europe, but its climate is the pits. I tried living there and I lasted 3 months. I couldnt take the sudden shifts in weather. I hated Chicago.

Only the strong survive. The weak die or go to LA.  Wink
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
ssides
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 37):
Never plan to fly through Chicago or New York/Newark/Philly during the winter without delays.

I would add the general caveat to never plan on flying through the New York area -- during any time of year -- without delays.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
bennett123
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Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:41 pm

I think that if BR715 really works in the airline industry then he would be wise to keep some of his views to himself at work.

I do not want an exciting flight, I want to die in my bed.

Give me a cowardly pilot every time.  Smile
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting Ssides (Reply 42):
Never plan to fly through Chicago or New York/Newark/Philly during the winter without delays.

When I worked for AA the stats at ORD showed that more flights were usually cancelled in JUL-AUG than NOV-FEB. Snow slows down ground ops due to clearing the ramp and de-icing etc. A modern aircraft can handle snowfall. What becomes dangersous are wind gusts and lightning. Of course both types of weather can cause rolling delays particulalry at large hub cities like ORD>
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 606
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:57 pm



Quoting JayDub (Reply 39):
As far as calling out "wussy pilots", keep in mind that, oftentimes, there are factors in play that the average pax (which you seem to be) have no understanding of. And better a safe pilot than one with "get there-itis".

As I told one pissy passenger once with a 4 hour flow delay due to severe thunderstorms at ORD, "it is better to be safe here in South Bend, than a Charcoal Briquette crashing down over Lake Shore Drive."

If you are going to be working for United (not Untied) in any capacity; get used to ORD, for it doesnt get much better.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:13 pm



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 27):
Unless ORD is your destination, I would never try to bypass those airports (ORD, JFK, EWR, BOS, MSP) during the winter.

Actually, MSP is delightful in the winter (as is DTW). NW does a remarkable job...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:24 pm



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 45):
s I told one pissy passenger once with a 4 hour flow delay due to severe thunderstorms at ORD, "it is better to be safe here in South Bend, than a Charcoal Briquette crashing down over Lake Shore Drive."

Nice. Airline customer service at it's best.  Yeah sure
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
christiaan
Posts: 68
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RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:29 pm

(So, aside from that, and JFK, what is going on here? Are there just some wussy pilots out there who "don't feel like flying through the weather." or are there legitimate cancellations going on for some odd reason or another?)

Im a controller at Chicago center handling the arrivals from the NE. Come and watch what "the weather" looks like from my perspective and you will understand why pilots dont want to fly through it....its ugly and the flights are canceled for a reason....
"Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities" Frank Lloyd Wright 1932
 
Caspian27
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 am

RE: Why Does ORD Have To Be O'Horror?

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:57 am



Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 9):
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that Flight 1234 is cancelled due to weather, but Flight 5678 can take off in the EXACT SAME WEATHER, and that is perfectly normal? I'm sorry, but I think that has a little more to do with pilots not wanting to fly.

I am based at ORD and I can categorically say that we pilots are not arbitrarily canceling flights just to to make people angry. In case you don't know, if we're not flying we're not getting paid. I find your statements here to be very ignorant of what's really going on.

What we have at O'Hare is a capacity issue. Everything here runs very smoothly when the weather cooperates. ATC here is probably the best anywhere. Normal operations have departures and arrivals coming in from every direction. For example, ATC will clear someone for takeoff on 32R, with another on approach for 27L, with another on approach to 22R to hold short of 27L. On the other side of the field they're landing on 28 and departing 32L intersection T10 and 22L. They are using every bit of the field. Now let's add high winds that reduce ATC's ability to use all runways, which reduces capacity. Or let's add low ceilings which reduces capacity because of increased separation. I haven't even mentioned rain or snow.

It's not the pilots, it's the design of airfield combined with winds/weather that reduces the amount of traffic that can get in or out.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...

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