columba
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The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:08 pm

Who will receive the prototype of the 747-8I after the test programm is finished ? Will it be a business jet or will it go to LH ?
Also some interesting information regarding the 747-8I with LH. Internally it is refered to as the 747-830I and it will receive the former registrations of the 747-200s formerly in use with LH.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
na
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:14 pm



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
the former registrations of the 747-200s formerly in use with LH.

It will receive the registrations of the first 747-100 and 200 to be exact, starting with D-ABYA, D-ABYC and so on, excluding D-ABYB, the registration of the first 747 ever lost in an accident.
 
columba
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:11 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 1):
It will receive the registrations of the first 747-100 and 200 to be exact, starting with D-ABYA, D-ABYC and so on, excluding D-ABYB, the registration of the first 747 ever lost in an accident.

Thanks that is nice to know !!!
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
SCAT15F
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:03 pm

Just a side note:

Aviation Week says Boeing is having to increase the MTOW of the 747-8F and -8I by 5000 lb to 975,000 lb because greater than anticipated loads on the outboard sections of the redesigned wings necessitate reinforcement. They also say that further efficiency gains with the wing cancel out the increased weight, and that 975K is the limit for the landing gear setup.
The GEnx-2b67 is supposed to begin testing next month as well.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:36 pm

Well lets see if the damn thing will fly... Still a very slow start for the 748..
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
na
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:09 pm



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
Well lets see if the damn thing will fly... Still a very slow start for the 748..

I remember that the start of the 773ER wasnt much better.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:17 pm



Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
Well lets see if the damn thing will fly... Still a very slow start for the 748..

If Boeing and airlines like LH are comfortable with the plane and anticipating orders to come in the years following introduction, why do all a.netters expect the 748 to build up huge orders before launch.....? I think the huge orders for the 787 and 350 are deeply influencing a lot of a.netters who keep predicting gloom for the 748.....and a "slow start" doesn't necessarily mean a thing, if the plane subsequently does well over the period when it is in production.....
 
columba
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:22 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 5):
I remember that the start of the 773ER wasnt much better.

Really I don´t really remember who was the first customer and how long did take for the second customer to come on board. I wish Boeing and the 747-8I all the best together with the A380 it will be the only new quad in a world of boring twin jets.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
DAYflyer
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:27 pm



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 6):
If Boeing and airlines like LH are comfortable with the plane and anticipating orders to come in the years following introduction, why do all a.netters expect the 748 to build up huge orders before launch.....? I think the huge orders for the 787 and 350 are deeply influencing a lot of a.netters who keep predicting gloom for the 748.....and a "slow start" doesn't necessarily mean a thing, if the plane subsequently does well over the period when it is in production.....

If I recall correctly, the 737 also got off to a very slow start. An order from LH saved that plane. Now look where it is...best selling airliner of all time....
One Nation Under God
 
columba
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:30 pm



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 6):
why do all a.netters expect the 748 to build up huge orders before launch.....?

Because it is the internet people expect news every 5 minutes besides as you said the tremendous number of orders for the 787 and A350 have spoiled people. If we think back on the days of the Dc 10 and L1011 orders were much slower and in lower numbers.
But back to the topic, does nobody has a clue who will get the first 747-8I after the test program is finished ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:38 pm

The scale at which the 787 and 350 are selling is throwing perception totally out of whack. Selling 4 or so billion dollars worth of anything ain't exactly chump change...and that just covers the 20 sold to LH.

That said...the waiting does suck, though...
What the...?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:44 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
But back to the topic, does nobody has a clue who will get the first 747-8I after the test program is finished ?

Yes. . .  Wink

It has been sold to a VIP customer with an already substantial VIP fleet.


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
FWI747
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:44 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
But back to the topic, does nobody has a clue who will get the first 747-8I after the test program is finished ?

Probably LH, It seems to me very doubtful that the first airplane would go to a VIP customer but i'm not in B's pocket...
Do you think that LH is reluctant to be the launch customer for an "already proven" (from a general performances standpoint) airplane ?
 
columba
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 12):
Yes. . . Wink

It has been sold to a VIP customer with an already substantial VIP fleet.

Thanks !!

Quoting FWI747 (Reply 13):
Do you think that LH is reluctant to be the launch customer for an "already proven" (from a general performances standpoint) airplane ?

No I don´t think that. I was just wondering if LH is the only customer so far if they build for the Intercontinental if the aircraft will be painted in LH colors when it rolls out or at least have the tail painted in LH colors.
Just imagine the 747-8I in Boeing dreamliner colors with the LH logo, would be a hell of an aircraft.

[Edited 2007-12-20 09:50:22]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
FWI747
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:49 pm



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 12):
Yes. . .  

It has been sold to a VIP customer with an already substantial VIP fleet.

Any clue on it's location ...
 
chiad
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:51 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 5):
I remember that the start of the 773ER wasnt much better.

But the 773ER had the A346 as its competitor.

The B748i has the A380, a more advanced aircraft in almost every way.
Another thing is that the A380 is proving itself better than Airbus anticipated, with apparently few, if any, major problems after EIS.
The A346 experience was quite opposite.

I'm probably wrong, but I dont see a very bright future for the B748i.
 
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LTU932
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:52 pm



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Internally it is refered to as the 747-830I

Not surprising. After all, the two zeros that used to follow the model number were just fillers that were dropped starting with the 787-8. So it's not unexpected that LH refers to their Intercontinentals as 747-830Is.

Quoting NA (Reply 1):
It will receive the registrations of the first 747-100 and 200 to be exact, starting with D-ABYA, D-ABYC and so on, excluding D-ABYB, the registration of the first 747 ever lost in an accident.

Could they, instead of D-ABYB, use D-ABZB? BTW, good to know that by using registrations of the 747 Classics they're going a bit back to the roots with the new 747-8I.
 
FWI747
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:00 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 3):
Just a side note:

Aviation Week says Boeing is having to increase the MTOW of the 747-8F and -8I by 5000 lb to 975,000 lb because greater than anticipated loads on the outboard sections of the redesigned wings necessitate reinforcement. They also say that further efficiency gains with the wing cancel out the increased weight, and that 975K is the limit for the landing gear setup.

Can you post a link ? If no, does the article mention any improvement in range ? Is a 5000lb not too much for an aerodynamic reinforcement, I've read earlier that the B748i would make use of FBW spoiler in order to alleviate aerodynamic loads. Do you know if they've dropped this feature ?
What range gain would represent 5000lb ? About 200Nm ?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:01 pm



Quoting FWI747 (Reply 15):
Any clue on it's location ...

Someplace hot. . .  Wink

Quoting Columba (Reply 14):
Just imagine the 747-8I in Boeing dreamliner colors with the LH logo, would be a hell of an aircraft.

In all liklihood, it will receive the full Boeing paint scheme, ala the 787.


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:11 pm



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Also some interesting information regarding the 747-8I with LH. Internally it is refered to as the 747-830I and it will receive the former registrations of the 747-200s formerly in use with LH.

Why so? Has Germany run out of registrations already? Some people might be spooked knowing they were flying on a plane carrying the identity of one which had crashed.

Strange.
 
columba
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:19 pm



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
Some people might be spooked knowing they were flying on a plane carrying the identity of one which had crashed.

The crashed aircraft will be excluded:

Quoting NA (Reply 1):
It will receive the registrations of the first 747-100 and 200 to be exact, starting with D-ABYA, D-ABYC and so on, excluding D-ABYB, the registration of the first 747 ever lost in an accident.

It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:27 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 22):
excluding D-ABYB, the registration of the first 747 ever lost in an accident.

 eyepopping  Sorry, I misread "exclucing" for "including". But why re-hash old registrations, or is Germany running out of combinations?
 
ikramerica
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:31 pm

I would assume that in a program like the 748I, there will only be 2 test frames much as it was for the 77L. The 748F will already be certifying the engines and wing changes and all that jazz, the 748I program will certify the pax configuration changes. The primary test bird will be full of testing crap, the second bird most likely equipped with an LH cabin for worthiness and route proving purposes. The second bird would also likely be the first "production" bird in the series, with the 2 test freighters and the first pax test plane being prototype birds.

The second bird would be deliverable much sooner than the first and be much more similar to all future 748Is produced, with the first taking 6-9 months to refit into an LH configuration. Might as well just refit it into a VIP config, which takes 1-2 years anyway, and not make LH wait for it.

At least that's how I see it.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 18):
Not surprising. After all, the two zeros that used to follow the model number were just fillers that were dropped starting with the 787-8. So it's not unexpected that LH refers to their Intercontinentals as 747-830Is.

This was my point a long time ago. There was never such thing as an actual 747-400 in reality. Any particular plane build was always a 747-4XX where XX was a two character code referring to customer specifications. There is not one 747-400 in existence. So removing the zeros makes as much sense as keeping them. Either way, you are describing a model series, not an actual specific plane.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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LTU932
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
Has Germany run out of registrations already?

No, but you have to remember that in Germany, most aircraft get a registration prefix based on their weight (e.g. D-A*** for most airliners). Only few aircraft like helicopters get a type based registration prefix (e.g. D-H*** for helos). LH additionally registers their aircraft according to the manufacturer and thus they only have two other digits left to fill (e.g. D-AB** for Boeing, D-AI** for Airbus).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
This was my point a long time ago. There was never such thing as an actual 747-400 in reality. Any particular plane build was always a 747-4XX where XX was a two character code referring to customer specifications. There is not one 747-400 in existence. So removing the zeros makes as much sense as keeping them. Either way, you are describing a model series, not an actual specific plane.

Let's also not forget that when the 707 entered service and the customer codes were introduced, there were no 00 fillers. The models were designated 707-120 or 707-320, and the 20 was later replaced by the customer code as well.

[Edited 2007-12-20 11:07:18]
 
ikramerica
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:28 pm

I personally like saying "dash eight" better than "dash eight hundred" anyway. Much cleaner, rolls off the tongue.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:48 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
No, but you have to remember that in Germany, most aircraft get a registration prefix based on their weight (e.g. D-A*** for most airliners).

Should have guessed. German logic of course!
 
ikramerica
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:54 pm



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 20):
In all liklihood, it will receive the full Boeing paint scheme, ala the 787.

I would assume number 1 will receive it. Will number 2 be painted in LH colors from the start? Or will it be white with an LH tail? Or will it be like the 77L program where both were painted in Boeing house colors. That's the real question.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting Chiad (Reply 15):
But the 773ER had the A346 as its competitor.

The B748i has the A380, a more advanced aircraft in almost every way.

Why would you think the A-380 is more advanced than the B-747-8i? I would think they are of the same generation.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 19):
Has Germany run out of registrations already? Some people might be spooked knowing they were flying on a plane carrying the identity of one which had crashed.



Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
The crashed aircraft will be excluded:

Registrations for airplanes get recycled in most nations. Here in the US, registration "N" numbers are not considered "unlucky". Those from crashed or lost airplanes get used again,too. Those numbers with religious or historical significants get used, too, i.e. N911AN (AA B-737-800), N666AA (AA B-757-200), and N666DL (DL B-757-200).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
I would assume that in a program like the 748I, there will only be 2 test frames much as it was for the 77L.

I would guess 4 B-747-8is will be used, 2 LH B-747-8i, and 2 B-747-8BBJ. Remember the B-747-8BBJs will be certified to a different stsndard than the airliner version of the B-747-8i. This will also be different from the B-747-8F version.
 
thegeek
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:48 pm



Quoting Chiad (Reply 15):
I'm probably wrong, but I dont see a very bright future for the B748i.

There is one thing that maybe, possibly can save it: fuel burn. Boeing claim a 10% reduction in fuel burn per seat mile over the A380. If they approach this target, it may become a strong seller with fuel prices practically certain to hit $200/barrel in a few years.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:11 pm



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 28):

There is one thing that maybe, possibly can save it:

Actually, there's probably only one thing that would kill it; if LH decides they don't want it. Otherwise, as long as the freighter is being built, (will will be for a very long time to come), the 748i will be available.
What the...?
 
ikramerica
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:12 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
I would guess 4 B-747-8is will be used, 2 LH B-747-8i, and 2 B-747-8BBJ.

That seems highly unlikely. This is going to be the second model of the 747-8 to test, as the F will be the first, and both are derivative models from the already certified 747 family. There is no need to fly 4 pax models for certification.

Boeing used 2 77Ws, 2 77Ls and will use 2 77Fs. They will do the same here with 2 748Fs then 2 748pax, but they will not need to go through a complete flight test regiment for the 747BBJ and one for the 748I. The only way I can see even a third 748I being used for testing is if it is outfitted as an LH configured bird from the start and is used to accelerate the route proving and airport compatibility testing while the second bird is taken out of testing to begin LH retrofitting for sooner delivery. But I'd have to know the 748 testing schedule to know if that's needed or not.

In the 77L program WD001 did the majority of the work while WD002 was used for proving, tours, etc. I would assume that because the 748 program will be the first pax derivative of this family, IC001 and IC002 (or whatever they are called) will need to share more of the the burden.

But the 747BBJ is not being certified to a different standard like the 737BBJ series was compared to the 737NG. Those planes had longer range, auxiliary fuel tanks, etc., etc. The 747BBJ is merely like any other private conversion of a commercial aircraft (private 777s, private A340s, private 747s of the past). Just as the 73GER had a rather short and simple flight test program to become certified because it was based on an already certified BBJ1, the 748BBJ conversion will have a very simple certification/approval process, and because IC001 will be delivered as VIP, it will likely do this testing as well.

But maybe someone more expert on the program can fill us in better.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ravel
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:26 pm



Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Also some interesting information regarding the 747-8I with LH. Internally it is refered to as the 747-830I and it will receive the former registrations of the 747-200s formerly in use with LH.

Is 747-830I the plane's official model number? Boeing uses customer codes in the end of the model number (and Airbus fills the space with engine and revision numbers) so I would assume that the model number would still have three digits, am I correct?

Thus, the 747-8 would only be a marketing name, as all the actual planes would be 747-8XX something. I may, of course, be wrong as I do not have any factual information about this. Can anyone help?
 
thegeek
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:28 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
Actually, there's probably only one thing that would kill it; if LH decides they don't want it. Otherwise, as long as the freighter is being built, (will will be for a very long time to come), the 748i will be available.

That may be, but I wouldn't call selling 25 frames a successful product.

I'm really not sure why LH want the 748i AND the A380 in such small numbers. Surely keeping the fleet common would be a worthwhile advantage.
 
kaitak744
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:50 pm



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 32):
I'm really not sure why LH want the 748i AND the A380 in such small numbers.

For the 1,000th time:

The 747-8i seats approximately 100 less people than the A380, so it is for different markets.
In the case of LH, they have no 777-300ER, and the seat gap between the A380 and the A340-600 is huge.
Also, LH probably got a huge discount on the 747-8 deal, for being the launch customer.
 
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Stitch
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RE: The 747-8I Prototype

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:55 pm



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 33):
The 747-8i seats approximately 100 less people than the A380, so it is for different markets.
In the case of LH, they have no 777-300ER, and the seat gap between the A380 and the A340-600 is huge.

LH's 747-8Is will also carry significantly more revenue cargo then their A380-800's thanks to having up to nine additional LD3 positions to devote to that task. So if LH has some VLA routes that also carry significant revenue cargo, the 747-8I will be the better choice.

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