Guest

B777-200: 4 More For AF

Fri Sep 08, 2000 4:55 pm

AF orders four more B777-200ERs to Boeing. They'll have 23 B777 in their fleet in 2002...Not too shabby for a so-called "forced to buy Airbus by the governement" airline....

Sidenote : AF will get a special pass from the DGAC to let them bring back to France the Concorde currently stuck at JFK....(I read it in a french newspaper this morning)..

E.
 
kaitak
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Fri Sep 08, 2000 10:00 pm

It's quite an impressive total, for any airline. By my reckoning, that must make AF one of the ten biggest 777 operators - no mean feat and with the long awaited 773X order, expected to be for 16, the figure is likely to reach 40 - with converted options etc.

It's one thing I like about orders; you have airlines that order in dribs and drabs and before you know it, they have a fairly sizeable fleet - for example United's A319/320 fleet.
 
AFa340-300E
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Great Growth!

Fri Sep 08, 2000 10:22 pm

Hello,

With these new aircraft Air France will achieve quite a great growth! At the moment the traffic increases quicker than the capacities at Air France, that should help to cope with it.

Now, I expect the order for the long-range aircraft to go ahead.


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Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
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RayChuang
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 12:39 am

What I really find it ironic is that Air France is buying -Boeing 777's- of all things. You'd think (out of patriotic duty) that AF would have a big A340 fleet, and would be buying the A346 right now, too.

Mind you, the 777-200ER is well-liked by AF for its seating capacity, long range, and high cruise speed.  
 
AFa340-300E
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AF A340/777 Fleet Advantage - Pleased With The 777

Sat Sep 09, 2000 12:55 am

Hello,

Air France selects what is the most fitting aircraft for their needs (network, economics, performance, customers, ground operations, maintenance, ...)

Therefore they have a large fleet of Airbus A340s (second largest worldwide after Lufthansa, if i'm not mistaken) and Boeing 777s.

This strategy has been successful, as it gives Air France some flexibility on the network for summer/winter season, and switch A340/777 whenever it's needed. Right capacities to the right route.

Air France's CEO Mr. Spinetta has stated the Boeing 777 has much pleased them because of its performances, reliability, economics, but also to the customers, pilots, flight attendants and in a general manner everyone who has to work on the aircraft.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
CX747
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RE: AF A340/777 Fleet Advantage - Pleased With The 777

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:22 am

Air France's purchasing choices have also changed as the carrier has become less government run and allowed to make its own decisions. In the early 1990s when it was still "government run" and its decisions were what the government dictated, the A340 was its long-haul aircraft of choice. As privatization has continually lessened the grip of the government on AF the 777s role has drastically increased.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
JumboClassic
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:26 am

Alain,

What is the difference in seat capacity and range between AF's 777s and 343's? Thanks.
 
Guest

RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:28 am

CX747, in the early 90´s the 777 wasn´t available.
 
ben88
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:46 am

Air France currently has 11 777-200ER's. They had nine on order before I heard this. So if we add four to that Air France will have a total of 24 777-200ER's. This will make them the fourth largest 777 operator in the world after British Airways, United Airlines, American Airlines and Singapore Airlines. Quite impressive! Congratulations Air France.
 
ben88
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:48 am

Sorry, that should have read they will be the fifth largest operator in the world after the aforementioned airlines.
 
AFa340-300E
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JumboClassic

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:54 am

Hello!

Here are the differences in terms of seating:

A340-300
First: 6
Business: 42
Economy: 204

777-200ER
First: 12
Business: 56
Economy: 202

The main point here is that the 777 was configured with large Business and First classes. In fact they are almost as large as in the airline's 747-400 (F: 13, B: 56) and gove the airline good revenues with the high-yields customers, notably on mainly 'business routes' like SIN, BJS, EZE, GRU or LAD.

In terms of range:
A340-300E 7,300m 13,500km
777-200ER* 8,861m 14,260km

* Air France is the launch customer of the heaviest 777-200ER version.

The additionnal range capacity of the 777-200ER must be used on routes like CDG-EZE, where they can still carry reasonable amounts of freight.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
AFa340-300E
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Ben88

Sat Sep 09, 2000 1:58 am

Hello Ben88!

Actually the total would be for 23 aircraft. But I don't think this changes many things in the rankings  

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
JumboClassic
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 2:05 am

Thanks Alain!

So these two aircraft are very similar in range (<800 km or 500m) and in passenger capacity (270 vs. 252). AF's preference for the Boeing is another proof that the 777 has superb economics. I have also heard that it's the biggest money maker at AF. Maybe you can confirm that.

Regards
JC
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 2:11 am

Hi again JumboClassic!

Yes, indeed, the 777 is very profitable because of the large high-yield classes.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus

 
pandora
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Victory To Boeing!

Sat Sep 09, 2000 2:23 am

...now AF has to does to order the 777X!
 
cba
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RE: Victory To Boeing!

Sat Sep 09, 2000 3:04 am

I must say, Boeing really did an excellent job with the 777's. They are the most liked aircraft, they have the best range, the best accomodations, and the best economics.
 
Guest

RE: Victory To Boeing!

Sat Sep 09, 2000 4:29 am

So is Air France getting 777's instead of 340's now? They now have the same amount off 777's as A340's, correct me if I'm wrong though. Pandora and Cba, I agree!
 
CX747
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Ab. 400

Sat Sep 09, 2000 4:43 am

Actually, it was if you were a member of the design team. If you read a little bit deeper into what I said, all I was trying to say was that as time has passed and AF has become more privatized it has been able to make its own decisions more and more. As seen with the A340 playing a drastically reduced role as the 777-200ER and soon 300LR take over the long haul mantle.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
sv11
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RE: Ab. 400

Sat Sep 09, 2000 6:20 am

Do they have any A340-300 on order? When are they planning to order the 777X? Are they happy with the GE90?

sv11
 
Hamlet69
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Ben88

Sat Sep 09, 2000 7:00 am

To date, AF has recieved 9 777-200ERs directly from Boeing, in addition, they have 2 in the fleet leased from ILFC, with an additional aircraft from them coming online in April. Finally, they have an additional 9 aircraft on direct order now, and an additional 2 going to be leased from ILFC, giving a total of 23.

The largest 777 operators (by direct order) are:
United - 61
British - 45
American - 43
Singapore - 40
ANA - 35
ILFC - 34
JAL - 23
Air France - 18

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Hamlet69
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Whoops!

Sat Sep 09, 2000 7:01 am

Sorry! Please insert Saudia between JAL and Air France on that list. They also have 23 on order.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 8:09 am

I think another reason why AF is buying the 777-200ER is the fact they use General Electric's GE90 engines, which have a LOT of the main components built by SNECMA, the same company that is a 50% partner in CFM International with GE.

I believe that AF flies the 777-200ER to a number of US cities, too. It'll be very interesting to see if AF flies the A340-300 or 777-200ER to SFO during the winter low season.  
 
pandora
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Some Comments Made By The Pro-airbus

Sat Sep 09, 2000 10:46 am

As one said 'A340-14000km' while '777-13XXXkm'

i cannot believe some people, pulling facts out of no where.
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 4:56 pm

Hello,

AFAIK, Air France is pleased with the results of the General Electric GE90-90B (they use the derated version like Continental Airlines). They have opted for the GE90-94B.
This new engine will allow for more freight on routes where the GE90-90B may face payload restrictions (places hot in summer and in altittude like MEX).

Apparently, the early troubles faced by the GE90 (which is the sole brand new engine for the 777) are now fixed.

Yes, there are still some A340-300Es on order for Air France. Also, they have ordered the A330-200 which sill be introduced in the fleet in December 2001.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Guest

RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 7:32 pm

Air France won't go for the A340-500/600 if it has only the RR Trent 500 series which is why they are going for the 777-200ER with GE90s.
 
Guest

RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sat Sep 09, 2000 8:19 pm

CX747, so you say Air France has been member in the design team of 777 ?
 
AFa340-300E
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777 Design Team

Sat Sep 09, 2000 8:26 pm

Hello,

No, Air France wasn't among the 'Gang of eight'.

These were United, America, ANA, JAL, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Cathay Pacific and British Airways if i'm correct.

However, it's likely Air France has taken part to the design studies for the 777-200LR and 777-300LR. Maybe someone could confirm/correct please?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Hamlet69
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sun Sep 10, 2000 1:33 am

Alain,

Replace Singapore with Delta, and you've got it!

Sorry I can't say who is involved with the 777LR design, but I would imagine that those who order the plane will get the most say.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
AFa340-300E
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Hamlet69

Sun Sep 10, 2000 4:51 pm

Hello,

Thanks Hamlet69; I just checked and you're right.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus

 
Adria
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Sun Sep 10, 2000 11:29 pm

Probably Boeing AGAIN did some bad tricks to get AF to buy their aircrafts. Like a lower price or something else.
 
Guest

RE: NO

Sun Sep 10, 2000 11:43 pm

Adria, no, don't post meaningless commments like that, you know they will start a fight. Just because Air France ordered Boeing iarcraft instead of Airbus, that doesn't mean that Boeing tericked them into it. Why do you Airbus fans always have to post dumb comments like that when airlines pick Boeing over AIrbus or when someone says something good about Boeing over Airbus? Why? Airlines can pick what aircraft they want from either company, no one tricks airlines into buying their planes, especially Boeing.

Don't start a war please.
 
avion
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:06 am

747-400: When US Airways orders Airbus you say: Airbus gave them away. But when Air France orders Boeing it is 'solely' because of the performance. What Adria says does have a point.

Avion
 
Guest

RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:11 am

I didn't say that, you're mistaken me for someone else
 
wingman
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RE: B777-200: 4 More For AF

Mon Sep 11, 2000 1:08 am

Boeing "tricked" AF into buying more 777s...I'd like to nominate this as one of dumbest phrases of all time on airliners.net.

When you say "tricked" do you mean to say that Boeing told AF they were getting eight 777s and then only delivered four of them or perhaps Boeing sold them four space shuttles and when AF openede the large Fedex parcel, it contained four 777s instead?

God, please protect future generations from our gene pool.