John
Topic Author
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Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 10:38 am

Much like the L15s they inherited, and subsequently retired, in purchasing Pan Am's pacific routes? Will the US A330 fleet honestly serve no purpose in UA's predominitely Boeing Wide Body fleet, 747/777/763? Will the fact that the A330's share a common cockpit rating with the A321/320/319 fleet, make this type more feasible in the UA fleet, as compared to the L1011s? Even though the A330 would be somewhat the odd duck of the fleet, I think it would supplement the 777s and 767s well, since UA never considered the 767-400, or did they? Just curious. Would like to read some thoughts on the subject.
 
L-188
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:35 pm

I don't think UA will keep them around. The L1011's are the only oddballs that I can think of that UA kept after a merger (Feel Free to correct me on that). Even those they where retired pretty quickly. If there is a capacity problem they may keep them around for a while but it that isn't an issue then look for any oddballs to be either sold or leased out. Probably sold so they could use the revenue on an aircraft type they allready use.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 2:32 pm

The most major difference between the L10s and the 330s is that the 330s are brand new, while the L10s were not. The L10s were retireable, the 330s are not. The only way to dispose of the 330 is to sell it. Selling something that you just bought however, is always a bad move as you are certain to sell it at a loss. Just like when you buy a car, if you sold the same car a week after buying it, you could only get 90% of what you paid for it. You have to drop the price to make it worthwhile to the buyer. I mean if you're going to pay full price for something, don't you want to be the first person to use it?

THe other issue is that L10s were truly oddball in the fleet. UA had no other Lockheeds, and no other RB211 engines. On the contrary, 330s can be simmed with the same 320 sim that UA has, US bought PW powered 330s with the same engines as on the boeing fleet, and 330s are already on the schedule to have 30 delivered in the next couple of years. There is no downside to this setup, so why ditch them for a loss?

No matter what ILUV767 will tell you   the 330s will probably stay for at least a good number of years. By that time, UA will have old 767s, and it is possible that they may go in favor of 330 series jets.
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 5:05 pm

I agree with you DLX, if US Airways ordered 30 A330-300s why should United get rid of them? United should keep them for a while to see how well they will operate on some of their routes to Europe and the Pacific. If they blend in well they can replace some of United's older 767-200s instead of ordering the new 767-400. And yes, they have the same P&W 4000 series engines as their 747-400s & 767s so they will be able to share the same spare engine components.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 10:07 pm

DLX and TEDSKI,

It's possible they might keep them, but remember US has only ordered 10 A333s, with 20 options. Those options would be easily converted into A32X orders/options should UA decide not to keep the A333s. And I don't really see the A330-300s replacing the 767-200s UA currently has (of course I mean, the A330s would be used in place of -300ERs, while those would be used to replace -200s). There is a 60 seat difference between the A330-300 and the 767-300ER. A 767-400ER or A330-200 order would still make much more sense than keeping the A330-300 for this. Also, the 61-frame 777-200 fleet doesn't help the Airbus' chances for seeing UA service, either.
I don't think it would be that hard for UA to sell 10 almost-new A330-300s. I would see them approaching either Airbus ("Take these back and we'll buy more A32X") or ILFC to get rid of them.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 10:13 pm

Not to throw cold water on a thread, but isn't this discussion just a bit premature?

Charles
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
UAPilot7
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 10:33 pm

I dont think the deal is even going to happen. With the flight attendants picketing, mechanics threatening to strike, and load factors down a lot, I just don't think its the time. If you, a United passenger who had a flight cancelled because of the pilot "strike" during the summer, and then hear of mechanics of United threatening to strike, and you need to book flights, UA vs. AA with the same fare, who are you going to pick??? That is exactly why load factors are down. Its just not the time United! (The answer was AA =) )

BTW- Its not like United doesn't see these contracts comming up, why don't they deal with these issues months in advance??? COMMON SENCE PEOPLE!
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Sun Sep 10, 2000 11:07 pm

Hamlet, I have no doubt that UA could sell the 330s. If you drop the price enough, you can sell just about anything to anyone. But selling brand new planes when you're not the manufacturer of such planes can not be done without losing a lot of value on the plane. (Unless of course there is a shortage of that type, which is not relevant here.)

For UA to convince another airline that they are better off buying slightly used planes from them vs. brand new planes from Airbus will take significant price dropping. Meanwhile, UA is still paying the higher financing for the plane they just sold. Not a good situation.

As for trying to give them back to Airbus, I think they would get a better deal trying to sell them to Boeing actually. The same deal would apply selling back to the manufacturer. They won't be able to get the best deal even through Airbus, considering Airbus would just have to turn around and sell that plane also. In fact, it is likely that AIrbus would give them an even worse deal than going directly to the buying airline. (Besides that, one of the companies in the US Airways Group is an airplane leasing/selling outfit. Might as well use that expertise for free.)
 
flyf15
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:22 am

I actually think that if the merger went through, they would be perfect aircraft for most of the Hawaii ops. They could make Hawaii all A330/757. I could imagine them flying at least most of these routes: KOA-(SFO), OGG-(LAX, SFO), and HNL-(LAX, SFO, ORD, and NRT) and maybe some new routes like OGG-ORD or HNL-DEN.
 
ILUV767
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Flee

Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:34 am

Well, UAL has the 777 which seats 278, and the 763 which seats 205. If the merger goes through, UAL may retain onership of the A330s, and lease them out to other carriers. I don't think that the A330 will be use for a long time in UAL's colors. The 764 is a better bet, for UAL. Pilots that fly both the 767, and the 777 will be qualified to fly that plane. United is very loyal to boeing for its widebodies, and it dosn't make sense not to continue using boeing widebodies. They are still taking deliveries of the 763, and 777.
BTW, UAL only operates the 762s on Domestic trips. So the A330 is not a good replacement.

Flyf15,
Those trips to Hawaii, are already made by a 2 class 777, which seats 300+ pax.
The A330, would have less seats=less revenue=less the company makes.
It is simply not economical to fly the A330 to Hawaii.

But, all of us are going to have to wait and see.
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:36 am

UAL also operates 2-class 777's between hubs, such as ORD-LAX and LAX-IAD alongside their 767's.
 
magyar
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Flee

Mon Sep 11, 2000 1:05 am


And what if UA used the 20 option US has for A332-s? This
way, they would get earlier deliveries, don't have to cancel orders
(probably easier to convert those orders to A332 than to A32X)
and they would get as good or better planes than the B764.

Janos
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 1:25 am

ILUV767,
Why would United lease out A330s that they already own, and order new planes to operate the routes that the leased-out aircraft operated. That's a guaranteed way to lose money!

Pilots will not be able to fly the 767-400 and the 777. Pilots can fly the 752/753/762/763 along with the 764, but then A319/320/321 pilots can also fly the A330 - no advantage for either manufacturer there.

United used to be loyal to Boeing for shorthaul aircraft, now they have a large A319/320 fleet. United used to be loyal to Douglas for large aircraft, operating large DC-8 and DC-10 fleets, now their large fleet mainly consists of Boeings. Airlines choose the manufacturer that can best meet their needs at the best price, loyalty doesn't come into it.

The A330-300 actually has a higher seating capacity than the B777-200 (440 v 420) so there is no reason why an A330 couldn't be configured to seat at last as many as a 777. Also, unless every seat is filled, switching to a slightly smaller aircraft would generally increased profitability with the same number of passengers but lower costs.

I don't know how you decided that it isn't profitable to fly an A330 to Hawaii, since that is exactly the type of route it was designed for.

BTW, I don't think this merger will ever happen, I was just responding to some of the inaccurate points made (in my opinion)

Regards
JET SETTER
 
ILUV767
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Flee

Mon Sep 11, 2000 2:23 am

Jet Setter,
The A330 is US Airway's configuration seats less than UAL's 777s. Less Seats=less revenue.

If UAL dosn't sell them, they will hold on to it, and lease them out to other carriers. This way they can start making back money from the merger.

United and Airbusses:
UAL wanted to replcae the 727, with the A320 because, a) they got a good deal with United
b) they had more range than the 734
c) the 737NG's ere not avaible at the time
d) cheap to operate.

UNITED and Douglas:
They operated alarge number of DC-10s, and didinot get teh MD-11 because:
a) still had DC-10s
b) no need for them at the time
c) operated 747s
d) began planning the 777 with boeing.

UNITED and Boeing:
UAL is one of the largest operators of boeing planes in the world.
They are still taking delivery of 767-322 ETOPS, 777-222 ETOPS, and 747-422.
A few years ago, they stopped getting there 101 757s.
Reciently they got all of their 737-522s.
All of their orders are up for standard bodied planes.
They have what they need.
With the airbus, they are finishing up an order placed years ago.
 
ual747-600
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Why This Stupid Thread Again?

Mon Sep 11, 2000 2:54 am

ZZZZZZZ

IF, repeat IF, the merger goes through, the merged entity will not exercise any additional A330 options (USAir only ordered approximately 12 firm I believe) UA will place additional widebody (767,777) orders with Boeing who will also remarket the A330's ala SQ's A340's. Why is this so hard to believe????

The A330 makes no sense in an airline with large 757, 767 and 777 fleets.

UAL747-600
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:10 am

The A330 is US Airway's configuration seats less than UAL's 777s. Less Seats=less revenue

Re-read my post;
-----
There is no reason why an A330 couldn't be configured to seat at last as many as a 777. Also, unless every seat is filled, switching to a slightly smaller aircraft would generally increased profitability with the same number of passengers but lower costs.
-----

You're other points about the United/Airbus and United/Boeing also work against your argument;

United is very loyal to boeing for its widebodies, and it dosn't make sense not to continue using boeing widebodies.
United had an all-Boeing narrowbody fleet until the A320 arrived. United ordered the A320 because they got a good price, cheap to operate, good range and Boeing didn't have an aircraft available at the time.
Where was the loyalty there? Delta, American, Alaska and Continental all waited for the 737NG. IF United was so loyal to Boeing thay would have waited too...
-----
Airlines choose the manufacturer that can best meet their needs at the best price, loyalty doesn't come into it
-----
I'm sure United would find a role for the brand-new A330s if the merger does go ahead, and wouldn't lose any sleep over whether their "loyalty" to Boeing was intact.

UAL is one of the largest operators of boeing planes in the world

UAL is one of the largest operators of Airbus planes in the world, if they do combine US Airways' fleet with theirs they will probably be the largest Airbus operator.

With the Airbus, they are finishing up an order placed years ago
-----
UNITED BOOSTS FLEET WITH MORE A320 FAMILY AIRCRAFT
17 August 2000

United Airlines has once again turned to Airbus to grow its single-aisle fleet. The Chicago-based airline has placed a firm order for six A319 and six A320 aircraft, exercising options from its 1998 purchase agreement. This deal comes on top of two other firm orders placed in 2000, including one placed in January for nine A320 Family aircraft and 10 A320 Family aircraft ordered in May. Deliveries of all 31 aircraft ordered this year are slated for 2002.

Including the order announced today, United had ordered a total of 164 A320 Family aircraft, and currently operates a fleet of more than 90 A319s and A320s, the third largest fleet of Airbus aircraft worldwide, and the number one operator of Airbus aircraft in North America.

“We continue to have very strong reliability with the A320 Family, and our customers respond very positively to the unique comfort of the cabin,” said James Goodwin, United Airlines Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. “As United expands its routes and frequency throughout the world, we are confident in having Airbus help power our growth. At this time of rising fuel costs, we are particularly appreciative of the A320 Family’s fuel economy.”

“Airbus aircraft have been an integral part of United’s growth since the first A320 was delivered to the airline in 1993 and we are particularly proud that United has decided to continue its charge into the future with Airbus aircraft.”

Regards
JET SETTER
 
Ryefly
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Flee

Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:10 am

I think if the merger went through, United would keep those A330's. There is enough commonality between it and its current A320's. Even if they did decided to replace them, it wouldn't be any time soon, and would more then likely sell them to an alliance partner that has or will have A330's in their fleet (Air Canada, SAS). United will have a lot more important factors of the merger to deal with then to run out and replace brand new aircraft. Besides they will need all the planes they can get. United doesn't have enough aircraft to quickly replace all of US Airways routes with the planes they have now. They will be spending most of their time replacing or adding smaller aircraft before they move on to the larger planes.
 
Ryefly
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Flee

Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:15 am

I think if the merger went through, United would keep those A330's. There is enough commonality between it and its current A320's. Even if they did decided to replace them, it wouldn't be any time soon, and would more then likely sell them to an alliance partner that has or will have A330's in their fleet (Air Canada, SAS). United will have a lot more important factors of the merger to deal with then to run out and replace brand new aircraft. Besides they will need all the planes they can get. United doesn't have enough aircraft to quickly replace all of US Airways routes with the planes they have now. They will be spending most of their time replacing or adding smaller aircraft before they move on to the larger planes.
 
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sammyk
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:25 am

It may not be that AA, CO, Alaska, and Delta waited...

Continental didn't have much money at the time, and, they did order some 737 Classics. (-300s and -500s?)

American, well, they had just invested in nearly 300 MD-80s.

Alaska, they have been slowly adding 737 Classics as well, and had a fairly new MD-80 fleet, and only recently placed an NG AND classic order.

Delta was on the MD-90 bandwagon.

Perhaps United couldn't wait, or just didn't want to.

Sammy

 
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fanoftristars
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:53 am

I believe Jet Setter said that 762-3 and 777 pilots could not both fly the 764. Acutually, the flight deck on the 764 can be configured to act like the 777 or the 763 so training for both pilots of the 763s and 777s would be easy. Well that is the only thing that I had to say.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
desertjets
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 4:22 am

IF the merger goes through here is a likely scenario.

The A333's will be there from 12-24 months before any final decision will be made. Being only 10 of a type in a combined fleet of nearly 1000 would indeed make it an oddball. For that time being former USAir pilots would be able to fly it and exisiting spares and parts contracts would be able to keep it flying. At some point when a decision is made it would likely be that there would be a sell-back deal in favor for other jetliners.

However as I see it the A333's are the least of UA's concern after the merger. They could just continue flying from PHL and CLT to Europe as they do now. The bigger issue is rationalizing the USAir route system into a new combined system, plus figuring out what to do with all of the owned and non-owned express parteners. Remember when UA took over Pan Am's pacific division the L-1011's continued to fly the same routes till 1988 when they were sold off. Aircraft like the Fokkers and the Douglas narrowbodies are the true oddities in the combined fleet anyways.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 8:28 am

I would point out there is no good reason to get rid of a 30 plane fleet. (That's how large the fleet would be before any decisions will be made.) 30 widebodies is a significant fleet. (Look at AA's "oddball" A300s. Only 30 or so of them. Heck, US currently only has 34 757s.) UA is buying not just the jets, but the pilots, the spares, the engines (some of which they already own), the simulators (again, which complement their own sims), etc. You "rationalize" a fleet when it is clear that operational expenses will decrease as a result. It is in no way clear that the removal of the 333 fleet would lower costs. In fact, many arguments can be made that the cost would rise simply because of selling cost of the 333, and purchasing cost of replacement craft.

Again, I (amicably) challenge someone to find a good reason for the fleet to be released. (You can throw the F100s in that argument too.)
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 8:35 am

I would also add real quick that less seats (sometimes) means less revenue, but it does not equate to less profit. If a slightly smaller plane costs much less to operate, profits will grow. ALso, if a smaller plane has significantly higher fares (Concorde, Legend, etc) obviously, revenue can be greatly increased.
 
ual747-600
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DLX

Mon Sep 11, 2000 4:58 pm

The Airbus website shows 10 confirmed on order of which 5 have been delivered and 5 options. You can bet that no A330 options will be confirmed while merger discussions are on going with UA. A fleet of 10 aircraft in an airline the size of a combined UA/US is insignificant and not economically viable.

Keep your day job as we forum members wouldn't want to worry about you earning a living in fleet planning for an airline!!! Just kidding of course.

UAL747-600
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 5:45 pm

I agree with DLX on this issue of United keeping the A330s after the merger. These high tech fly-by-wire aircraft with P&W 4000 series engines like the ones United has on it's 747-400s & 767s will be easy to fly by pilots who fly the current A319/A320 aircraft. The cockpit setup in the A330 is the same as the A320 family.
 
mlsrar
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Not Common

Mon Sep 11, 2000 6:05 pm

I heard it 3x, and someone may have already initiated the correct response, but ALPA regs. prohibit 32x pilots from operating 33x/34x aircraft--advantage 75/76
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
EyeSky
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 7:05 pm

L-188,

Waaay back at the beginning of this thread you asked if UA had kept any "oddballs" in their fleet after a merger. Capital had made a rather substantial order for 60 Viscounts back in the 50's, just prior to being absorbed by UA. There was much speculation at that time as to whether or not Capital's orders and options would be kept or cancelled.

In the end, UA operated some of these Viscount until the late 60's and from what I have read they were quite pleased with them. It probably helped that CO, a competitor of UA on many western US segments, also operated the Viscount. As for other UA "oddballs", they did operate a fleet of SE-210 Caravelles 6R's in the 60's and early 70's which I always though was odd considering that UA were involved with the 721 from pretty early on.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © John P. Stewart



UA unloaded the L-1011's they picked up form Pan Am's sale of their Pacific routes after a couple of years as they didn't mix well with their large and established DC-10 fleet.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Richard Silagi



I think if it makes sense to their route structure and bottom line, UA will hang on to whatever A330's it may pick up if the merger is approved. Otherwise, I'd look for some serious "horse trading" as they try to rationalize their fleet.
 
HyperMike
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 7:16 pm

WHOA! I can't believe that DLX and TEDSKI actually agree on something.

As DLX has pointed out in the past, fleet commonality isn't such a big deal for a mega-carrier like United. Having a few oddballs won't be such a big deal, especially if they are brand new oddballs.

Once again, we won't know until the bean counters tell us what they're going to do.
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Mon Sep 11, 2000 8:31 pm

I believe that the A330s will serve United very well on many of their routes to Europe and the Pacific regardless of where they came from.
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 8:42 am

UAL747, your info is incorrect. US has outright purchased 10 333s. They have reconfirmations on 4 more, and "preferable" options on 16 additional for a total of 30.

Also, let's compare apples to apples. How big is the UA fleet? Doesn't matter. UA's 500 plane fleet is mostly narrowbodies. Would 30 jets or even 10 jets in the widebody fleet be small? Not really. The 777 fleet for instance is only 44 jets for instance.

I know what you're thinking: "DLX, why do you keep bringing up 30 jets?"

Simple. In the short run, it would be very expensive to sell off the fleet. However, significant cost savings can be realized by actually growing the fleet. (Better utilization of crew mostly.) So, since the earliest the fleet would be removed would be a few years or more down the road, and you can fill out the fleet today, it makes an awful lot of sense.

I understand why so many of you argue that a more rational, streamlined fleet is the way to go, but you all are missing out on my point. If it didn't cost anything to swap 333s for 767s and 777s, then of course, that would be the better option. Unfortunately, for UA, it does cost you, quite a bit actually. YOu have to sell the planes at a loss, you have to retrain all your pilots, etc. etc. etc. Fortunately for UA, however, it costs them less than say L1011s would. The UA mechs already know the engines, and the frame to a lesser extent. (As do the US ones of course.) The UA pilots can make use of the 320/330 simulator. The 333 fleet can be expanded right now, while the 777 and 767 fleets will have to wait until Boeing has the time.
 
ILUV767
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Flee

Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:13 am


"The 333 fleet can be expanded right now, while the 777 and 767 fleets will have to wait until Boeing has the time."
-D L X


NO
United is currently getting more 767-300s, 777-200s, and 747-400s... Boeing dosn't have the time. That makes me laugh. UAL is getting a new plane from boeing twice a month.

Anyway, why add another fleet type?
United operates:
The A320 family
737s
747s
757s
767s
777s
DC-10s.***Retired soon!

If you noticed...I did not put any model numbers on my list above, such as the 737-300. I did this because each model is not counted as its own fleet type. By adding the A330 to the fleet, you raise operating costs for UAL. US Airways only has four of them. Those can be leased out to carriers like Air Canada. Its much cheaper to add sub-types than fleet types.
UAL will get more boeing wide bodies, not airbus wide bodies.
 
desertjets
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Just An Observation

Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:35 am

United seems to like to have a lot of cross-compatibility in their fleet in terms of the routes their widebodies can fly. Both the 777 and 747-400 are/have been used on both Atlantic and Pacific sectors. Certainly this level of flexibility with very expensive aircraft is welcomed by the bean counters. The limitation of the A330-300 is that its range only allows it to fly shorter transatlantic sectors and some Latin American sectors. Given the still small numbers that would be in USAirway's fleet at the time of merger, if and when that happens, they could likely be phased out in the 2-4 year time frame in favor of 777's which have more operational flexibility.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
MAC_Veteran
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My Take On This..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:56 am

I see UAL keeping the A333's.

I believe many have been far too quick to believe UAL will phase out the A333 in the yearn to standardize on fleet types when the fact remains that UAL can use the A32X commonality quite well upwards to the A333 insofar as training goes and familiarity. ALPA rules notwithstanding, the potential remains true that there is a good capability to have a pool of pilots trained in short time and ready to step into the A333.

A few points stick out as lucrative possibilities for them:

1.) Feed within Asia to their Narita hub, Particularly BKK/SEL/BJS/PDG/HKG/SIN to Narita replacing the 747-400 currently flying these routes, which then free the 747-400s to be used on -expansion- of routes from CONUS to Asia/Australasia along with potential of expansion of routes from CONUS to Europe and South America. The A333 can be utilized quite effectively within Asia. It's perfect for the job. If I am not mistaken, Cargowise it can haul a BIGGER load of belly cargo than the 747-400 which is an important asset to exploit and buttress it's UAL Worldwide Cargo operations in Asia, cargo being so prominent there, it would give them an incredible amount of lift to compete with Northwest. It's an ideal Heavy Hub feed-aircraft.

2.) Expansion of CONUS to Europe services. A333 is quite capable of it and gives UAL a HUGE amount of breathing room to do so.

All of this hangs on whether the UAL/US purchase goes forward. Personally I dont think it's going to happen, but surprises may be in store.

Regards
MAC
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:17 pm

ILUV767, you're exactly the person I'm talking about when I say some of you don't get it.

UAL isn't deciding which of US's fleet to add to its own. It has to decide which planes to REMOVE from the combined fleet. For DC9s and MD80s, the choice is pretty easy, since US had already planned ahead to replace them. Also, these jets have depreciated to the point that they are retireable. The 333s are obviously a different issue. There are not currently any plans (or planes) to replace them. Sure, UA has 777s and 767s arriving (to replace DC10s, older 747s, and slightly grow the fleet), but they do not have an order to replace the 333s at this point, and the earliest they would be able to order such planes would be after the merger is approved, which if it actually happens* won't happen this year. So, then you'll have to wait until Boeing has the time to make 333 replacements. That at least 10, possibly 30 jets to replace all of the 333s.


You always note that 330s can be leased to Air Canada. What if AC doesn't need 330s? Do you think they will take them from UA as some sort of charity? Dude. Any airline that takes the 333s from UA will be doing them a favor. As such, UA will have to pay a penalty to release them. THat's what you need to understand.
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:24 pm

The asterisk is important enough to get its own post. (Actually, I forgot to include it.)

*The merger won't happen. It is dead.


One more thought just popped into my head. What do you do with the 330s US has paid for, but would not deliver? Convert to 320s? Doubtful. Both US and UA have large orders for them already.
 
MAC_Veteran
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DLX-another Fact To Throw In..re: Air Canada

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:36 pm

I had a smile reading the assumption that UAL can just cede their PW pwered A333's upon Air Canada, posted by some who arent getting one shred of what you are saying. (G)

Let's remind folks about something important: Air Canada's A333's are RR powered. They like them and are happy as pie with them.

How can UAL just "dump" it's potential PW powered A333's upon them? Has anyone bothered to ask AC first? (G) What if AC is fine and content with it's own fleet plans? Hmm? (G)

Additionally on Air Canada: Word on the Marc Shaeffer's Airliner Order site that Air Canada is revising it's A340NG order to now convert 3 A340-600s to -500 models.

Regards
MAC
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:42 pm

Hehe, you know, I thought that too, but I wasn't absolutely sure that AC didn't have PWs.

But, you know, it's not fair to pick on ILUV767s late on a school night. (Sorry, bud; couldn't resist. Feel free to pick on me while I'm at work.)
 
MAC_Veteran
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:04 pm

DLX

AC has been flying their RR Trent powered A330-300s from Montreal to Paris and London Heathrow for a little while now, and nonstops from Toronto and Montreal to Vancouver. (Seems to be VERY heavily utilized from Montreal across the Atlantic) There is word that they may EXPAND their A333 orders also.

Check the AC A333 pictures on Airliners.Net library..they look spectacular.

I've flown on RR Trent powered Dragonair A330s and it's a very nice ride. The 'power package' on departure is AWESOME I might add..It's very noticeable (G)

I've got to try AC out sometime, I've heard they are quite good, never flown on them and people I converse with say they are excellent. I'm considering trying them to and from Taiwan via their system through Vancouver.

Regards
MAC
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 4:14 pm

AC has P&W powered 767s which have the same P&W 4000 series engines like the US Airways A330s so they can share spare engines components.
 
Udo
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 5:56 pm

But AC will replace the B767s in the near future, along with the B744s which means the end for PW with AC...
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
F4N
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 7:44 pm


To all: An interesting topic which was brought up by Russell Short at the Orders Group was a fleet rationalisation plan undertaken by a private firm(for whom and why is not clear)regarding the combined UA/US fleet. It seems that this plan revolves around the hypothetical fleet of 747's, 777's, 767/757's and the A32X group. The main point, at least as far as this post is concerned, is that neither the A330 or 764 were considered as they were deemed as impractical or unsuited(I forget the exact term)for "revenue enhancement".
While this of course does not necessarily mean anything, it provides a thought provoking insight on how the merged entity(if there is to be one)may view its' future fleet profile.  

FYI,

F4N
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 8:28 pm

DLX,

Ahhhhh! Now I see your point. Although I'm not ready to agree with you yet, you do bring up some very valid points.

Udo,

Despite what is being reported here at Airliners.net, I don't think AC is in any hurry to get rid of their 767s (although maybe the -200s?). Currently, 3 767-300ERs are on the Everett assembly line. Destination? Why, none other than Air Canada. Delivery is scheduled for April and May of next year.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
EyeSky
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 8:47 pm

D L X states that the UA/US merger is dead. Has this been reported in the open press or is it speculation?
 
JumboClassic
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 8:59 pm

Do you guys think UA might use the 333s for transcons replacing the 762s which are 17-18 years old?
 
Guest

JumboClassic

Tue Sep 12, 2000 9:23 pm

Yes I do, they will be a perfect replacement for United's aging 767-200 fleet. If US Airways is currently using A330-300s on European routes to Paris and Frankfurt they will suit the needs of United.
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 9:28 pm

After the merger, the US Airways P&W powered A330-300s could also replace the aging US Airways GE powered 767-200s, so United will have an all P&W powered wide-body fleet except the DC-10s that will be retired next year.
 
D L X
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Tue Sep 12, 2000 9:30 pm

EyeSky, I state that the deal is dead because there is an awful lot of opposition to it, especially where it counts: Washington, DC. For one thing, a LOT of Congress flies US Airways, and would prefer not seeing it through the strife that affected UA this summer. It is not officially dead, but dying fast, imo. I had to say it since I've been anti-merger since day 1, and haven't noted this in a while.

JumboClassic, I doubt that the 333s would be used for transcons, at least not to replace the 762s. THe 333 is a 762 with a 737 hanging on the end.   It is too big for a replacement. Now, that doesn't mean that they couldn't use it for transcons. They could certainly find themselves on hub-hub routes for staging purposes.

Hamlet69, I've been anxiously awaiting your opinion on this.   What do you think of all this?
 
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DLX/TEDSKI

Wed Sep 13, 2000 12:54 am

I think it's great that you love the A330 so much but your logic here is weak. Why would a carrier with lots of 757/767/777's want A330's around. Especially when you have the largest 777 fleet going that can do everything an A330-300 can do and alot more (more pax, more payload, more range)????

With regards to your pilot commonality argument, here in the US, the pilot unions don't allow narrow-body crews to fly wide-bodies. So after they would be done flying Airbus narrow-bodies they would fly 757's and 767's before graduating to the A330 and then they would have to be retrained to fly the bus's.

Thats why the combined entity won't keep the A330's. The 777 is more capable and the costs (crew, maint) of supporting a small fleet of A330's would not be economically viable for the airline. That's why they'll be sold by Boeing when they sell them more 777's to replace the A330's.

UAL747-600
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:30 am

In my opinion, if UA does successfully merge with US, I think they're going to have a problem figuring out what to do with the A330-300 fleet.

UA may end up trading in the A333's back to Airbus in lieu of even more A319A/A320 models. Because UA already has a substantial 767ER and 777 fleet, UA will use these planes instead for the trans-Atlantic flights from PIT, PHL and CLT.

Anyway, UA is looking for a plane to replace their DC-10 fleet and possibly their older 767's. The most likely choice: 767-400ER. Don't be surprised if UA orders as many as 35-40 planes to be delivered over the next 4-5 years for use on USA transcon routes, USA to Hawaii flights, and intra-Asia flights from their NRT "minihub."
 
Guest

RE: Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet..

Wed Sep 13, 2000 5:40 am

The 777 would be a better DC10 replacement for the ORD-HNL run because that flight is always jam-packed (I know from experience), & the 777 XC carries 292, & the DC10-30 carries 296.

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