dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Mon Sep 11, 2000 8:54 pm

I saw this press release info in rec.travel.air. I've been waiting for DEN-FRA forever!!! The press release shows all of their new routes.

------------------------------------------------------

Summary of the LH press release 9/11/00:

- New daily A340 service between FRA [Frankfurt, Germany] and Denver, CO
(dep. FRA 13.10, arr. DEN 15.40, dep. DEN 17.40)

- New daily A340 nonstop service between FRA and Phoenix, AZ (dep. FRA
11.00, dep. PHX 15.30)

- UA will offer additional nonstop service between FRA and DEN (for a
total of two new LH/UA presumably code-shared daily roundtrips) during
the peak summer season; details yet to be announced

- New thrice-weekly service between MUC [Munich, Germany] and Sao Paulo
(A340), MUC and Singapore (A340), and MUC and Hong Kong (A340).

- New daily 747-400 nonstop service between MUC and Los Angeles

- An A340 will replace the A321 on the thrice weekly MUC-Tel Aviv
nonstops.
 
dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Mon Sep 11, 2000 8:59 pm

Here is the actual press release


-----------------------------------------------------

11/09/2000 Lufthansa with new long-haul services

US destinations Denver and Phoenix - Four more routes served from Munich

Lufthansa is further expanding its worldwide route network as of the summer 2001 timetable. With the inclusion of two new US destinations - Denver, Colorado, and Phoenix, Arizona - and a major increase in long-haul services from Munich, the airline is assuming an even more important role as a global player.

The new services to Denver and Phoenix will be launched on 25 March 2001. From that date Lufthansa will offer daily non-stop flights from Frankfurt to these two centres of commerce and tourism. That will raise the number of American cities served directly by Lufthansa from 12 to 14.

The Frankfurt-Denver service (flight LH 446) will be operated by a 247-seater Airbus A340. It will depart from Frankfurt daily at 13.10, landing at 15.40 local time in Denver, the second largest traffic hub in the United States. The return flight will leave Denver at 17.40. Flight time is ten-and-a-half hours.

Lufthansa's Star Alliance partner United Airlines will also be offering flights on this route in the 2001 summer timetable during the high-season months. Details have still to be announced.

Phoenix is an u-and coming commercial centre, especially for the semiconductor and e-commerce sectors. From 25 March 2001, a Lufthansa Airbus A340 (flights LH 448) will depart daily at 11.00 for the Southwest of the United States. The return flight to Frank-furt will depart at 15.30. Flight time is eleven-and-a-half hours.

Meanwhile Munich is playing an increasingly important role in Lufthansa's long-haul offer. In the 2001 summer timetable four new long-haul destinations - Sao Paulo, Singapore, Hong Kong and Los Angeles - will be served from the Bavarian capital.

A thrice-weekly, Airbus A340 service will be operated to Singapore, Hong Kong and Sao Paulo. Los Angeles will be served daily from Munich by a Boeing 747-400.

Lufthansa is also boosting frequencies between Munich and San Francisco from three to seven a week. The Californian city will be served by a Boeing 747, which can accommodate about 140 more passengers than the Airbus 340 operated to date on this route.

On the Munich-Tel Aviv route Lufthansa introduces with the 2001 summer timetable the Airbus A340, at the same time increasing passenger comfort. At present flights to Israel are operated by an Airbus A321.

Deutsche Lufthansa AG
Corporate Communications
Tel: 069 / 696 -3669 oder -2999
Fax: 069 / 696 -95428


 
SR3496
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat May 06, 2000 8:21 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Mon Sep 11, 2000 9:01 pm

          WOW!          
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:08 am

That sure is a lot of expansion for the Munich hub. I hope all of these flights do well.

Aaron G.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7564
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:29 am

It doesn't suprise me that they picked both PHX and DEN... both cities have been pushing hard for international service. What suprises me is the possibility of Summer-only UA DEN-FRA service. Seems that United was more cooperative than we thought.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

UA FRA-DEN

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:45 am

Hello,

So United Airlines would operate a flight (I don't see anything but the 777-200ER for it) only in summer (if I understand properly "peak times").
But would they have two daily flights, or just UA adding some flights per weak to cope with the higher traffic of some days (like the weekends)?

Anyone would have more info please?

Thank you,

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: UA FRA-DEN

Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:52 am

UA's flight will operate from June until October and will be a daily flight in addition to LH's daily flight. My guess is that the 777 or 767 will be used.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:09 am

So now Lufthansa serves only one US-Destination less than BA. That being SAN. I bet that Lufthansa will soon announce non-stop service to SAN with an A340-300.

Avion
 
dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:25 am

BA actually serves several more destinations than LH. BA goes to SEA, BWI, CLT, TPA, MCO and SAN.
 
SR3496
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat May 06, 2000 8:21 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:28 am

Does LH fly to Seattle, Charlotte, Orlando? I think they don't, but BA does. So there are some cities which aren't served by LH nonstop from Europe...
SR3496
 
Guest

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:32 am

Lufthansa will serve 14 US Cities when the new flights start. British Airways already fly to 21 US Cities;

Atlanta
Baltimore
Boston
Charlotte
Chicago
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Houston
Los Angeles
Miami
New York-JFK
New York-Newark
Orlando
Philadelphia
Phoenix
San Diego
San Fransisco
Seattle
Tampa
Washington

Regards
JET SETTER
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:41 am

Avion: British Airways serves 20 (BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, BWI, IAD, ATL, MCO, TPA, MIA, DTW, ORD, IAH, DFW, DEN, PHX, SAN, SEA, LAX, SFO) US destinations, whereas Lufthansa only serves 12 (BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, IAD, ATL, MIA, DTW, ORD, DFW, LAX, SFO), so it'll take Lufthansa a lot more to have equivalant amount of services.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:48 am

Lufthansa does serve TPA and MCO through Condor. Like Tampa and MCO are served by BA Leisure in full Ba livery. Hence the 3-4-3 configuration on the 777.

Avion
 
JumboClassic
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 4:37 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:55 am

The press release states that the aircraft to DEN will be a 247-seat A340. Is that a standard configuration for a -300 or is it a -200? Are there any additional requirements for the A/C due to DEN's location?
 
jabpilot
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 1999 8:38 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 2:06 am

I'd love to see the A340 departure from PHX when it's 110 degrees or even the DEN departure in the mid-summer heat at 5,500 msl. I wonder what that takeoff roll will look like! Jeff
 
Mason
Posts: 636
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 1999 12:01 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 3:05 am

I wonder if LH plans to add SEA soon. I think they could really capitalize on this route. SEA is only served by three airlines to Europe; that being BA to LHR (747), NW to AMS (DC-10), and SAS to CPH (767-300ER), unless you count Aeroflot. Most of these flights depart full, and passengers could really take advantage of LH's route network from FRA!
 
dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 3:39 am

I'm sure SEA is the top city that LH is considering now.

The configuration of the A340's for the DEN and PHX flights are the same.
 
747firstclass
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 2:45 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 3:44 am

Does anyone agree that unless they get their act together on their alliance and sign an openskies agreement with the US that they will fall further and further LH and AF? Will this inroads by LH into profitable BA territory finally wake up BA? This in addition to British Midland starting service to IAD. Does anyone have any idea how much longer BA will hold out on this stuff?
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 4:12 am

Among the cities that Lufthansa said they were considering with PHX and DEN were SEA, SAN, and PDX. Since PHX and DEN already have service, that means SEA and SAN would most likely be the next targets if LH wants to expand more in the Western US. LH really didn't accomplish anything in regards to giving SAN and SEA more options on European travel when they decided to open up PHX and DEN. SEA is far away from DEN and even though there would be ample UA feeder flights, there are still, as already mentioned, three carriers that serve Europe from there already. SAN is very close to Phoenix, but LH has no feed there, as they have no agreements with America West or Southwest, which serve the PHX-SAN route.

Between SAN and SEA, however, if I had to choose one city that would probably get nonstop Lufthansa service first, it would have to be SEA. This is simply for physical reasons, though. I do not think an A340 could operate safely out of SAN, which has only a 9400 ft, runway and a hill directly in the takeoff path of aircraft. This restricts long-range operations, and even though a 777 can now operate from this airport nonstop, I doubt the A340 could because of the apparent low rate of climb that it has leaving the runway. In fact, I believe that this restriction is one of the biggest reasons that LH chose Phoenix rather than San Diego to get a Frankfurt flight. I have little doubt in my mind that if San Diego had a better airport, then it would have been chosen over Phoenix for the service.

Now, however, we will need to see whether these newly added flights from PHX, DEN, and LAX (Munich) perform well to see if any expansion is needed.

Aaron G.


 
dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 4:38 am

Here is some info on UA's flight:


-----------------------------------------------------
United's Denver-Frankfurt flight will go open for sale on Tuesday,
September 12, with the first date of operations beginning on June 1, 2001,
continuing through October 26, 2001. Flight 964 will depart Denver at 8:55
p.m. and arrive Frankfurt the following afternoon at 2:35 p.m. Starting June
2, 2001, flight 965 will depart Frankfurt at 3:20 p.m., and arrive Denver 6:05
p.m. the same day, and continue operating through October 27, 2001. The route
will be operated with United's technologically advanced Boeing 777, the
largest and most modern airliner in service today. Like the Lufthansa flight,
United's flight will be timed to allow convenient connections from
destinations throughout the Western U.S. served by United, United Shuttle and
United Express. United's flight will also allow seamless connections to
Lufthansa flights beyond Frankfurt. United's service will offer three class
service, including 12 seats in United First with its recently introduced
"United First Suite" lie-flat bed product, 49 seats United Business and 217
seats United Economy.


 
Guest

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 5:55 am

Yes, I also believe that it will be a great route. Avions comments on BA flying to far more destinations in the U.S. than LH is also true... But at least LH doesn't have to cut a heck of a lot of jobs like BA did... Are some of those 20+ routes BA offers to the U.S. maybe generating losses...hmmmmm.
 
Guest

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 5:56 am

Yes, I also believe that it will be a great route. Avions comments on BA flying to far more destinations in the U.S. than LH is also true... But at least LH doesn't have to cut a heck of a lot of jobs like BA did... Are some of those 20+ routes BA offers to the U.S. maybe generating losses...hmmmmm.
 
Guest

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 6:05 am

Every international airline is invited to STL. COME ON ALREADY!!!!!!

TurboTristar
 
desertjets
Posts: 7564
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 7:14 am

Is this true... LH departing at 3:30 in the afternoon from Phoenix to Frankfurt!!? I suppose it can be done or else they wouldn't be doing it. Both Phoenix and Denver offer very interesting hot and high situations, or just really damn hot and somewhat high in the case of Phoenix. I suppose this is part of the reason why the BA flight leaves for Gatwick at 10:30 at night.

This is pretty exciting though. It gives me a good 8 months to plan ahead to be at Sky Harbor to watch the first plane come in.

Is there any word that these routes might eventually be upgraded to a 744, like BA did with the DC-10-30 to the 744?
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Guest

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 8:59 am

Great news for both DEN and PHX! Unfortunately, Denver is taking too much of the limelight. It was only a matter of time before DEN got another transatlantic flight, but the addition of an another 'real' European airline at PHX is a real breakthrough.

I'm amazed that some people think Phoenix offers no feeder traffic! Have you not been to T4 at PHX lately? Southwest will never codeshare, but with such low fares, the advantage of such an arrangement is negligible. FYI, America West already does codeshare with British Airways—just because HP isn't a member of the Star Alliance or One World doesn't mean they go untapped!

It may be a little early to speculate about an equipment upgrade out of PHX. It will be very interesting to see how the competition affects BA's operation/fares. An A340 in PHX will be a sight for sore eyes. We're going to need a four-holer after BA goes to 777. (Honeywell counts as a five-holer   )
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 9:43 am

DesertJets: It may be a little early to speculate about the PHX flight's opportunity to have an equipment change, but if the market responds, then it will happen. The BA flight changed from a DC-10 to a 744 and not a 777 primarily becuase of the fact that SAN is also a stop on the route and there is a lot of America West codesharing opportunities.

24291: I agree it is a real breakthrough for a 'real' European airline to fly to Phoenix. In fact, LH is the first Continental European airline to fly somewhere in the Southwest other than L.A., which bodes well for the region.

When I say that LH will not have much if any feed at PHX, I mean that they are not affiliated with any airline there that can provide customers with easier options for transfers than a flight through a hub of one of the other majors can. For example, would it have been smarter for Sabena to fly Houston instead of Dallas when they opened a route to Texas? No, because American, an affiliate of SN, does not have a hub anywhere other than DFW, where AA can provide lots of connections to feed the flight. Houston is a Continental hub, and it would not codeshare with Sabena to help fill the flight.

So anyway, my point is that Lufthansa is not necessarily choosing PHX as a destination that would provide sure connections for its passengers. Denver has these connections by way of UA, and that is why this flight has a better chance of succeeding then the PHX one does (not to say that I think they won't, though!!). However, I do agree that it would be possible for someone to use Phoenix adequately enough as a connection point to Europe.

To anyone: Does anyone here know if an A340 could oprerate out of an airport like San Diego with all of the restrictions it has? (9400 ft runway with a hill in front of it, etc.)

I may want to spend the hundred dollars or so it may cost me to go out and watch the first LH flight arrive! Will it be departing from the same terminal as the BA flight? If so, they would be at their gates at the same time!

Aaron G.
 
dia77
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:09 am

I'm pretty confident that both the DEN and PHX flights will succeed. Both cities are major high-tech centers and big tourist attractions.
 
AAmericanguy
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 1:02 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:16 am

Its gonna be nice to see an A340 here in Phoenix. I love the 744 but considering thats the only LARGE jet flown here in will be a nice change. I was driving through terminal 4 a couple weeks ago and I noticed that they already have the Lufthansa sign up on the Terminal directory. Thanks!

AAmericanguy

 
desertjets
Posts: 7564
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:28 am

All the international flights, except Alaska and Air Canada depart from the international concourse at T4.

The only reason why I mention an equipment upgrade is that BA operated 6x week, I think they didn't come Wednesday, with the D10 for 18 months before the upgrade to daily 744 with the SAN segment tagged on. So I would like to think, but then again I may be wrong, that there was significant demand to warrant the large plane.

As for the perceived lack of feed at Sky Harbor, while HP provides limited feed (LAS, TUS, and various points in SoCal) for BA, I doubt how important it really is. I remember when BA first entered Phoenix they were heavily promoting the World Offers with great rates for points in europe beyond London. While a large portion of that flight may well be O&D to London or feed into Phoenix from London, a large part of it was using Gatwick as a transfer point into Europe. I imagine the situation could be very much the same with Lufthansa. It will be interesting to see how it is marketed here.

I am pretty excitied about the possibilities with new LH service in Phoenix... while they may not be my first choice for travelling to Europe, it may effect air fares and bring them down on carriers that I'd primarily choose (CO).

Plus this more than makes up for that flakey service we had with LTU a few years back.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Guest

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:45 am

Trvlr, I wasn’t trying to specifically target you, but I have this perception (perhaps misguided) that many forumites believe that because America West is not in a major ‘alliance’, there are no reciprocal benefits to be gained. I am certain that LH is eager to get their grubby little paws all over those millions of passengers traveling through Phoenix.

I am certain it will arrive at T4 international. It is possible they'll tow the A/C over to T2 (UAL’s Terminal) for the departure, but I expect LH would prefer to depart from T4. Will LH be obligated to depart from a UAL gate because of Star?

Lots more questions…
1. Is it a given that UAL ground crews will handle the flight? AWA crews currently handle the BA flight. One might expect AA crews to handle that flight.

2. Is Lufthansa contractually obligated to only code share with Star Alliance airlines?

3. Would the fact that HP currently code shares with British Airways eliminate the possibility of HP code sharing with LH on the same flights?

4. Would UA still code share with LH, even if the flight left out of a different terminal? Also, could both UAL and AWA code share on the same flight?

5. Has Lufthansa ever served PHX before (part time), perhaps in the late eighties/early nineties? I remember seeing their name listed on T2/T3? as I drove into the airport.

I’d just like to add that when I said "‘real’ European Airline" I was making a weak effort to differentiate LTU who served PHX recently on a weekly basis, from the daily, full-commitment kind of service just announces by LH.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7564
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:01 am

I'd imagine that LH would operate exclusively out of T4... it is a much nicer facility than T2 by far. Don't know who'd handle ground ops... my guess is HP since they are already in T4. Would not make much sense for UA to drive stuff to the other end of the airport for one flight. Don't know if LH is seeking an HP codeshare, but it wouldn't hurt either one to have it. Don't know what, if any codeshare UA could really do on it, except for the FRA-PHX segment itself. As for Lufthansa being listed on airport signs, that has always been the case since UA and LH were codesharing... I believe a few of the flights to ORD and IAD were/are codeshared with Lufthansa.

Yeah, and the LTU service was a joke, they made a big deal when it came, but it only came once a week, then left. No loss

Just as an aside I would like to see a third concourse built on the southside of T4... for United, Air Canada, and Lufthansa. That would be nice. it would be about 7 or 8 gates... SW fits 10 on the C concourses, and the Star Carriers could have the benefit of the nicer facility.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: LH Picks DEN And Phx!

Tue Sep 12, 2000 4:52 pm

Dont forget that LTU is a charter/leisure airline. In this type of market frequency doesnt matter. Price is what counts and the tickets they sold were cheap.

Avion
 
Pbb152
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:57 pm

RE: LH 423

Wed Sep 13, 2000 11:47 am

You forgot IAH among the U.S. destinations LH serves. That makes 13!


Pete

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