TWFirst
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NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:29 am

From today's (19 Sept) Minneapolis Star Tribune:

NWA hunt for new planes includes Boeing visit

By Tony Kennedy

Star Tribune Staff Writer

Fresh from a visit last week to Airbus Industries in Toulouse, France, top executives from Northwest Airlines this week will visit Boeing Co. in Seattle for some competitive airplane shopping.

Northwest is close to deciding where to spend more that $3 billion to replace its aging fleet of long-range DC-10s. The nation's fourth-largest airline operates about 40 of the wide-bodies, primarily on international routes.

Analysts have speculated that price will be the biggest factor in the decision because both manufacturers make suitable equipment. NWA management team might make a tentative deal soon and present it for board review and approval by the end of this month.

"It will be a real competition between Boeing and Airbus," Richard Anderson, Northwest executive vice president and chief operating officer, told employees in his weekly telephone hot line message. Anderson said the contest is between Boeing's big twin-engine 777 and Airbus' A330 or A340.

An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
nwa747-400
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:46 am

Thanks for the update.

I guess we'll find out who the winner is soon enough. Dear God make it Boeing and the 777!!!!

I think they'll go 777 becuase that way the long haul fleet will be all boeing and the short haul will (eventually) be mostly airbuses and dc9s.

I know this topic has been discussed over and over so I will leave it at that. I am still very excited to see the outcome none the less.

Trent
 
TWFirst
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:05 am

Hey Trent: are you in "Chambana"?? That's my old stomping grounds. I deduced from your e-mail address.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
The777Man
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:18 am

I think they will get the 777 because of what Nwa747-400 said and because the 777 has better seat mile costs then the Airbuses. The 777 also would allow for growth and could replace 747-200Bs on less travelled routes. I can't wait to see what they will decide to get. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
N312RC
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:22 am

Personally, I dont care what it is!! I will be happy with any new model they decide to purchase. Being around DTW all my life, and seeing the same models year in and year out has gotten really boring. I just hope for something new!
N/A
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:26 am

Another good replacement for Northwest's DC-10s is the 767-400 with the P&W 4000 series engines like their 747-400s have.
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:29 am

The only reason they're talking to Airbus is to keep Boeing honest.

Pat
 
kaitak
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:49 am

Tedski has a point about the 764; might we see NWA being one of thge first 764ERX customers? However, I would still see the vast majority of the deal going to the 777.

Don't forget that although the reports speak of a need to replace the DC10s (which is quite accurate!), the 747 Classics aren't getting any younger. Many of the 747-200s operating across the Atlantic (about 17 of them) are over 20. The 772 would be an ideal DC10 replacement and the ER/LR models would allow some interesting new long haul routes and increased frequencies, but the 773ER would also be a welcome 742 replacement in due course.

Anyone want to put his neck on the line and make a prediction?

Let me start with 18 772ER/LR, with about 20-25 options. Going once . . .
 
nwa747-400
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 3:26 am

The DC10 of which NW has about 40 will all be 777-200s. They can operate these on both international and domestic trips just like they do with the DC10. It would be just the same as United who uses a 777 for say a ORD-IAD and then have the same plane fly IAD-CDG. Nw uses lots of DC10s to the west coast so I am pretty sure that is what they will do with 777.

Also,the 777 will all be most likely be a mix of 200s and 200ers.

Prolly 20 777-200s and 20 777-200ERs.

Now for the 747-200s. I think we will see more 747-400s join the fleet. They will probably spilt the 747-200s to half -400s and keep the newer -200s around for a few more years.

The 767-400 is not a player. It has not been mentioned at all by NW. But it would be nice for them to get some mainly becuase of the 2-3-2 layout in coach...but its not in the running.

I think that is all I wanted to say.

Oh yea...TWFirst...I am in Champaign!!!!
 
Adria
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 4:12 am

Please make it AIRBUS!!!!!
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:28 am

Since we are all guessing, unless someone is a mind reader, I'll add my guess to the pile!

For better flexibility & growth, I think they will order a mix of 764,764ER,772,772ER.
A mix would give the ability to add more seats to Europe in the summer, and put them into warmer markets in the winter.
With the price of fuel, its a real balaning act to guess what future business will be like, and yet, not "over buy" capacity. Capacity=weight. weight=fuel burn.

So probably a mix of 10-15 of each. We may not know the exact breakdown until later. They might buy delivery positions
and determine the model as they go along.
 
avion
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:37 am

I believe AI will win. Airbus is really keen on this order so they will do everything to get it! And the performance of both planes A340-500 and 772LR is totally similar. This one is wide open but AI has been working closely with NWA and i believe AI will win!

Avion
 
TWFirst
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:38 am

Help me out folks. Unless the numbers are rearranging themselves on my computer screen, I read the following:

Anderson said the contest is between Boeing's big twin-engine 777 and Airbus' A330 or A340.


So how is it that some of y'all are coming up with 767's? Do you think NW's COO is lying... or the media misquoted him... or NW will suddenly change its mind... or... what?

I'm betting on the 777. Strategically, it makes sense for a number of reasons.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:43 am

Doesn't NWA aready have an order on the books for Airbus A330's that has been deferred indefinately? If they do decide to buy the 777 there may be some wrangling over this initial order, or they may just convert it to additional A320's, or else have to pay penalties to Airbus. My guess is that if NWA is now serious about buying the A330, they may be using discussions with Boeing as a means of wringing additional concessions out of Airbus.

It'll be interesting to see which way this falls, though my unbiased gut feeling is that it will be the A330.
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Superfly
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:45 am

My God I hope they go with the A340!

There are no US A340 operators yet!
I think the A340 is the most beautiful aircraft to come out over the last 10 years. I think the Northwest livery would look great on an A340.  
Bring back the Concorde
 
Adam84
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 6:49 am

If they do get 777's or A330's or A340's do yall think they will go all out and put PTV's at every seat, and/or get a new seat design.
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:07 am

I agree that a RR Trent 500 powered A340-500/600 would look terrific in Northwest colors. I still think maybe the P&W 4000 series powered A330-200/300 or 767-400 will be the right replacement for the DC-10s.
 
USAirways737
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:11 am

Hopefully, they would be ruined in terms of in flight service if they didnt.
 
TWFirst
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RE: USAirways737

Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:14 am

Huh???


Didn't understand your post, USAirways737. Do you mean they will be competitively disadvantaged if they don't replace their DC10's soon?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:17 am

My initial feeling is pretty much the same as Kaitak, that Northwest Airlines will go with 16-22 Boeing 777-200ER, with options on another 25-30. They'll convert their A330 order to A320s.

The Airbus is a nice aircraft, but the B777 is far and away a superior product. Without a doubt, the finest commercial aircraft flying the skies.

Pat
 
TWFirst
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RE: USAirways737

Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:17 am

Never mind. It just occurred to me you were referring to the installation of the PTV's. Sorry!
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:38 am

I think a 777 would be better for NW for 747 replacement!!

Go BOEING!!

Please make it be Boeing and the 777!!

I'm pretty sure it will be Boeing, considering NW's fleet of Boeings.

Rgds,

B744
 
nwa747-400
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 10:24 am

The old A330 order was converted to A320/A319s already.

I am sure they will go out and buy the pTVs and new seat design. Basically all the airlines are doing that.

Does Co's 777 and 767s have PTVS? Just wondering.

They really need to get the "winged headrest" if nothing else!!! KLM is redoing it's "Tourist Class" to include winged headrests so I think we will see NW follow along.

Trent
 
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RayChuang
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 10:33 am

You know, I still wonder why NW is still pursuing the A333/A343 or 772/772ER.

I ask this because NW is NOT ETOPS maintainance certified.

Unless NW drastically upgrades their maintainance practices, I have serious doubts about NW buying either the Airbus or Boeing "jumbo twins." Given that many airlines are giving up on the MD-11, why not have NW buy 25 MD-11's from SR, CI and KLM second-hand and have them completely overhauled to NW standards? That way, NW will have a play that can fly MSP or DTW to NRT non-stop, and can also fly as far as MSP-HNL easily. And all without an expensive upgrade for ETOPS maintainance procedures.
 
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sammyk
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 10:41 am

Well, NW will just have to wait a year and GET ETOPS certified. It's pointless to sit around and not be. Besides, the A340NG will have to be maintained to ETOPS standards, so even if they did buy a 4 engine aircraft, they would need to upgrade their maintainance.

I mean come on, how long is NW going to live without being ETOPS certified? May as well just get it done and over with.

Sammy
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 10:58 am

The way I see it, NW will go either Boeing or Airbus. The secondhand MD-11 idea seems to be out of the picture now.
I believe that NW, which is actively seeking more A32X jets, would likely convert its A330 order to those and pick up a mix of B772/B772ER, with options on the B773ER for when the time comes to replace its B742s.
Don't get me wrong- I have nothing against AI, but I think Boeing will win this one.
As far as ETOPS goes, yes, NW needs ETOPS if they want to dream of staying around much longer. You simply can't operate B744s and A340s across the Atlantic for the rest of time, and those DC-10s won't last forever. It's time to get that ETOPS, NW.
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:13 am

I really hope that Airbus wins this one since I would like to see one more U.S. airline become an operator of Airbus widebodies. However, I believe that NWA will follow the trend of most other U.S. majors like United and keep their widebody fleet Boeing.
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:13 am

I know it would be stupid, but don't you think an NWA 737-900 would look awesome?  
 
BH346
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:21 am

We're Nuts:Yeah, it would be pretty cool   Too bad it probably won't happen  

As a Northwest passenger,I hope they go Boeing on this one. I really think the 777 is a amazing aircraft. It looks a lot nicer for the passenger. I hope they build up an Airbus narrowbody fleet, and build up a Boeing widebody fleet. The two companies make great planes.

BH346
Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
 
Flaps
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:35 am

My thoughts:

The DC-10 fleet is used for domestic, transatlantic and transpacific operations. The 777 is too big for NW domestic ops, perfectly suited for the Pacific and is too large for some transatlantic routes but perfectly suited for others. The A340 is well suited for transatlantic and transpacific ops but useless for domestic ops. The A333 is useless for the Pacific, too large for domestic and fairly well suited for the Atlantic. The A332 is too expensive for domestic ops, too small for the Pacific, well suited for secondary Atlantic and too small for primary Atlantic routes.

Northwest needs a mix of types, either an order for the A340/A333/A332 family or the 777/764 family. A mixed fleet of 777 and 764 aircraft would completely fill all of their needs. If Airbus is to win this one it will have to do so on price, Boeing has a solid lead on product. It is almost the opposite of the USAirways competition where Arbus had the lead in both product and price for that companies particular needs. This will be a very interesting competition, I'm glad Im not the one making the decision.
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:47 am

Technically, the 777 was made to be perfect for long-range routes, but also make money on short routes (i.e. Denver to Chicago). This was one of the major selling points for Delta, Continental, American, and, of course, United.
 
Adam84
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:48 am

Why do you say the 777 is too big for domestic operations, their 10's hold almost 300 passengers and thats about the same for most other 2 class 777's.
 
nwa man
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:01 pm

NW will only choose one or the other. There will not be a mix, and there will not be a 767-400, as much as I would like to see that beautiful metallic bird in the air. The 777 would work well, and that's my guess right now, because it will fulfill all of NW's needs. If it's the 777, we might see a significantly larger order (or at least more options) because this could also replace some of NW's older 747-200s.

Just my 0.02...

NWA Man
Create your own luck.
 
L-188
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:10 pm

One thing that isn't being talked about is that the EURO is falling against the dollar...I think it is down to about 80 cents or so now....

That means that there is a currency discont for shopping in France right now.

But a lot of that is offset because so many Airbus parts are made in the U.S.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
The777Man
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RE: Falling Euro

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:33 pm

Airbus sells their planes in US dollars so the falling Euro wouldn't really make much of a difference in Airbus price. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
Udo
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RE: Falling Euro

Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:40 pm

Apart from the Euro or Dollar question, I think NWA will go for the best price as both the B777/B767 and A330/A340 would fit into their fleet.
But I fear whatever they choose won't mean profits in Seattle or Toulouse...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
nwa747-400
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:15 pm

The DC10s hold about 281 pax 34/247 according to the website.

The 777 is about the same in a two class config. which NW would do. The 777 would work great from Trans-Altantic and domestic routes.

NW would have no problem getting ETOPS certified. They have one of the best, most respected maint. departments in the world. And, a great safety record too.

my 2 cents
 
AmtrakGuy
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Wed Sep 20, 2000 11:29 pm

"I ask this because NW is NOT ETOPS maintainance certified."

Can anyone explain to me what this all about ETOPS Maintanance Certified? I read a lot of threads about this but I don't get what it means.

dave
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 1:06 am

If Northwest goes for the 777-200ER, what engine selection will they go for? I think they will go for the P&W 4084 engine like United has on it's 777 fleet, being that Northwest is a P&W customer and has on it's 747-400s one of the P&W 4000 series engines.
 
nwa747-400
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 1:55 am

Yeah...they will go777 and they will go P&W
 
UA777
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 3:29 am

AmtrakGuy,

Here's a good article regarding ETOPS maintenance programs.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_11/archive.html

Go to Aero 7

I'd love to see the 777 in NW livery

 
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sammyk
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 4:36 am

If Northwest were to buy 777s, and if the LR's are in their future, it would be wiser to go with GE90s. Why have a mixed fleet of engines? Granted, thats how it is now with their DC-10s. Well, stranger things have happened I suppose.

Sammy
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 7:13 am

Hi Sammy, because Northwest & Japan Airlines were the only customers to order the 53,000lb thrust P&W JT9D powered DC-10 series 40 model, to increase their DC-10 fleet, Northwest had no choice but to get used DC-10 series 30 models with the 52,500lb thrust GE CF6 engine.
 
Guest

RE: We're Nuts And BH346

Thu Sep 21, 2000 7:19 am

NW 737-900 would be awesome!!

I agree BH346, the 777 does look better.
 
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sammyk
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:21 am

Tedski, yes I know why Northwest has GE powered DC-10s, just making a note that they do indeed currently have a mixed fleet, and replacing it with yet another mixed fleet wouldn't be surprising. I would think though that they would want to get away from that sort of thing and standardize on one engine per type of aircraft.

Sammy
 
Guest

RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:39 am

Then you agree that it is not good for current 777-200ER operators that have either P&W 4084s or Rolls Royce Trent 800 series engines to go for the GE90 powered 777X models. It is best they stick with one engine for that type of aircraft? A good example, American & Delta have a RR Trent powered 777 fleet, instead of ordering the GE90 powered 777X model they should go for the 767-400 model with the GE CF6 because their current 767-200/300 fleet is powered by the same engine. Right?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:42 am

Udo,

I think this is the first time we've agreed on anything: no matter who wins, they will probably not make any money on the deal.

TEDSKI,

Just a correction; the 777-200ER comes standard with the PW 4084, but most carriers select the more powerful PW 4090, which I'm sure NW would do, should they choose that particular airframe/engine combination.


As has been previously mentioned, this really is too close to call. Both the A330/A340 and 777 can fulfill NW's requirements, and there doesn't seem to be an great advantage with either aircraft. Even from the manufacturer's perspective, there is the same amount of pressure. Boeing doesn't want another US operator to go A330, while Airbus definitely wants another US A330 customer, and possibly their only US A340 customer.
It will all come down to price, and, maybe more importantly, future growth. Here I do think the 777 does has a slight advantage, as you can go from @300 2-class medium-haul domestic routes (777-200) to @360 ultra-long haul international routes (777-300LR) with the same group of pilots/mechanics/spares.
The only other reason I think Boeing might win this one is the DC-10 itself. I think Boeing is in a better position to buy these aircraft back from NW. They could then convert them into the MD-10 configuration, and market them to FedEx or another cargo operator. This might even let Boeing come out even in the deal, although probably not really make a profit.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
AmtrakGuy
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:45 am

UA777,

Thanks....I got it...printed out...will study it carefully..hopefully I will get the picture.

Thanks.
David
 
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sammyk
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 9:50 am

Tedski, no I don't really agree with that, at least not with your logic. You are suggesting that, since the 777X has GE90s only, that airlines should buy 767s. How could they possibly do this? The two types of aircraft don't even compete. If someone needs the range and capacity of the 777X, then a smaller 767 isn't going to cut it.

Airlines like AA, an Delta already have 777s in their fleet and adding more is not a problem, although it WOULD be nice if they were able to specify the same engine, it's not going to happen, and choosing an Airbus is even worse than having a different engine on the same type.

What I was trying to say was, that if NW opts for the 777, they may as well get GE90s for their entire order, instead of purposely creating a mixed engine fleet. If they have no plans whatsoever to purchase the 777X, then obviously PW would be the way to go.

Sammy
 
LH423
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RE: NW Hunt For New Planes Includes Boeing Visit

Thu Sep 21, 2000 9:54 am

I don't care what they get, just so long as there is finally an equipment change to NW38/39, BOS-AMS.

A330, 767-400, or the 777, it doesn't matter, just get rid of your ageing fleet Northwest.

LH423
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