kaitak
Posts: 8933
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:10 am

It takes a lot to make me dislike an aircraft; in fact, I like almost all of them. Except the 146. It's cramped, it's slow and I don't like the fact that, from November, the only way I can get out of Jersey, flying to London is on a 146 or an RJ100; BA is axing the Jersey - LHR route. It's JEA (now British European) that bugs me most of all - scratched windows, stingey with the jump seat, rarely on time; Cityflyer should be okay with the RJ, but it's still cramped; the 146/RJ was not designed as a 6 abreast aircraft and it feels very considerably more cramped than a 737 or 320 - or indeed 5 abreast jets like the M80 or F100. And then there's the view; if you're sitting anywhere from row 6 to about 14, you have an obstructed view - looking at an engine or watching the flaps come down in front of view - and can they do it quietly? The 146 is the only aircraft I know where the flap drive motor drowns out the sound of the engine.

It's not without qualities of course and this is a purely subjective view. It's a safe aircraft, it's good for STOL operations and it's rugged. But like Dr. Fell in the nursery rhyme, this I know and know full well, I do not like thee, 146 . . .
 
Guest

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:14 am

Kai,

Many board members heap praise on this airliner; after having flown Sabena from BHX-BRU on said airliner, I have to say, I agree with your comments.

IMO, it IS cramped, many window views ARE obstructed, and I thought it was rather noisy myself.

Interestingly enough, it's the plane of choice for our Royal Family.
 
Aer Lingus
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:29 am

I remain absolutely neutral on this topic. I do like the 146 to look at but I can't comment on it from the pax point of view as I have never flown on one.
But be warned Kaitak (akersid !), you may come into a lot of criticism as I did when posting a similar topic on the MD-80.
Some people really are attached to a particular aircraft and act quite passionately about them !

Just some friendly advice

Martin
 
mel
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Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 5:13 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:34 am

Oh oh... I just booked my first flight for the Bae 146. I fly a Bae 146-100 in the last leg of a trip to San Francisco. The flight will be a United Express flight from Denver. I believe I have seat 2A, front row. What should I expect right next to the engines? I believe it's a long flight also, about 2 hours.
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shankly
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:40 am

We'll I've also just booked London Florence on Meridiana's 146's in November.

I've flown this bird before, Contiflug, London City - Berlin.

I have to say I was impressed. Although its a bit slow, the jet comfort on such a leg is more than compensation. Conti's 146 was 5 abreast and I can see that 6 would be a bit on the tight side.

Non-the-less it does a job that probably no other jet, of its size can do, and for that it must be admired.
L1011 - P F M
 
Guest

Noisy But Not Bad

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:41 am

Yes the 146 is noisy, the undercarriage is noisier than the flaps, but it is fascinating whatching the mechanisms for the flaps move, and looking into the engine, it is'nt slow at all, for such a small aircraft it is relatively quick, i live only a mile or so from where they are built, and they fly over my house all the time, they are not much more noisier than say a 737-200 and alot quiter than a 727-200 so just be happy that you got too your destinations safely  
 
Guest

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:44 am

MEL, in the front row you won´t have your view blocked by the engines.
I did like my flights with Buzz on the Bae146, in their fleet the 146 offers more legroom than their B737´s. The plane is kinda loud inside, maybe because the engines are at the same level like the cabin. But for a short trip it is a nice experience .
 
Guest

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:08 am


That plane is great in my opinion. It's different. Almost unique.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:23 am

"It's cramped, it's slow, scratched windows, stingey with the jump seat, rarely on time;"

Hey Kaitak, what does that have with the plane to do?
You just take a ride on a RJ-100 operated and maintained by Crossair instead. Wide dark blue leather seats better than anything you can afford at home, plenty of legroom all way to the back. You don't check the delay on the your watch, instead you adjust your watch on their departure time.  
Slow? I never went further than 600 miles on an RJ-100. It is 2-3 minutes slower in the air. But on take off here at CPH it saves even more time because instead of taxiing all way to the end of the runway it turns onto the runway half way down, and still it leaves plenty of runway to spare.
Obstructed view, yes, on some rows you see the engines, but then you don't have the wing to obstruct your view on beautiful planet earth. Flaps, yes, my eyes are glued to the beautiful flap mechanism inside the wing when flaps are rolling in and out. You don't see that so well on any other airliner.
If you go to London City Airport you won't have much choise except a vibrating turboprop. Because the RJ-100 has take off and landing performance unmatched by any other jet airliner. And its external noise is by far quieter than any other jet airliner.
On an airport without jetways you step in and out of it much like an underground train, not on some flimsy and much too steep stairs.
The RJ-100 is a great plane, but it is a very specialised niche plane. The worst thing about it is that it is too expensive. Of course the oldest 146s are getting pretty old today, but you cannot blame that on the plane. And if they show their age, then you can only blame it on the airline company which maintains them.
I love the RJ-100 at least as much as any Airbus or Boeing. I have flown on them many times, mainly between Denmark and Switzerland.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Superfly
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:31 am

I've never flown on one, but I think they look rather cool!  
Its unusual to see four jet engines on a small commuter aircraft. I happen to like all four engine jets.  

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Søren Geertsen


I think it looks cool!
Bring back the Concorde
 
mlsrar
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MEL...youll Love It

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:40 am

MEL, the Denver routes--most of them anyway, are operated under the UAExpress banner by Air Wisconsin corp. Their 146s have a 19" seat width with a 2-3 seat config and 34" pitch...beats Economy Plus for the most part. You'll love it from a ocmfort standpoint!
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
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RE: Superfly

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:48 am

Yeah, Superfly, that's a beautiful picture of the Latvian Air Baltic short fuselage RJ-70 which is commutting between Riga and Copenhagen. By accident it seems that I always pass it on the finger when departing or arriving at CPH. It always looks a little dirty, just like on this pic too. Air Baltic co-operates with SAS and they seem to have the same relationship to soap and water. But otherwise it is a most beautiful plane.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:52 am

Bae146´s can offer you a view like this,



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Barry Rauck



Very nice if you like to see a little more of how a plane works.
 
Guest

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 3:57 am

Yes, I must say, Crossair's 146 cabin does *look* very good. In fact, there was an Aviation programme here in the UK, which was similar to a "Trip Report", on a Crossair flight out of LCY, can't remember the destination though.

The food looked great.
 
Guest

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 5:13 am

I've flown with the RJ for 3 times (Crossair + Sabena) and I enjoyed it everytime.

BSL
 
jasewgtn
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2000 5:24 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 6:27 am

The 146 is the main aircraft of the Qantas New Zealand fleet and I have been in them many, many times and I do prefer the 733 of Air NZ.

QF New Zealand's are only 5 abreast however, how can you fit 6 abreat? I though 5 was cramped!

Jase
 
teahan
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Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 6:42 am

Aer Lingus and CityJet also fit 6 abreast!

Jeremiah Teahan
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
SegmentKing
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Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

United Express BAe 146

Fri Sep 22, 2000 6:44 am

The sole United BAe 146-100 is in a 3 x 3 config and is based out of O'Hare.. that plane only goes to Denver to do the Denver - Aspen flights...

the others are BAe 146-200 and - 300 aircraft. All aircraft are in the 2 x 3 seating configuration... seat 2A in the -200 aircraft is a good one, row 4 is where the engine cowlings start on the -200, row 6 on the -300. United Express gives you somewhat of a snack on all flights over 90 minutes, normally a salad and breadstick, or sandwich of sorts...

Hope you like it..

~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 7:05 am

This is my favorite aircraft!!! Seating has nothing to do with the plane! Its the airline! You probably rode on one with the 3 x 3 seating configuration. 3 x 2 is very comfortable, wider seats that the ones on the 737! The BAe 146/Avro RJ is also known as the "Whisper Jet". It is one of the quietest jets if not the quietest! Its one of the best Regional Jets ever built! Go to there site: http://www.bae.regional.co.uk

Wait until the Avro RJX comes out!
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Samurai 777
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 7:11 am

I love the 146! I have flown on AirBC's BAe 146-200s several times, mostly from YEG to YYJ(Victoria, BC) and YVR and back, and once on an AirNova 146-200 from YUL to YQM(Moncton, New Brunswick).

They're great RJs to fly on! The noise level isn't that bad despite the four engines - it's about the same as the A319, actually. But you can actually hear the flap motors running usually when it's taxiing before takeoff and after landing. The seats are pretty comfortable, legroom isn't half bad, about 33-34" in pitch. All of AirBC's and Air Nova's 146s seat 5-abreast in economy and 4-abreast in Executive Class.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © John W. A. Merer


The photo above is an AirBC BAe146-200 at YVR. The "AirBC" title is right on the rear of the fuselage, which IMO, is a bit silly!
 
BA
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Kaitak

Fri Sep 22, 2000 7:16 am

Ohh.....and by the way Kaitak, your not supposed to post topics like these. All they do is cause wars. If Johan finds this topic, he'll delete it. He even said that don't post topics that show hatred and messages that start wars.

Kind regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
mel
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 5:13 am

I'm Flying A 146-100

Fri Sep 22, 2000 7:50 am

My itinerary says I'm flying a Bae 146-100 Denver-Fargo. I guess it is the sole 146-100 in the UA/AirWisc fleet. Why would they have a 3X3 config on the -100 but only 2X3 on the -200s and -300s. Are the -100s any wider?
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nwa747-400
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 7:59 am

Have you tried the Avro 85?

They are much better than the BAE146. Much more quiet and the flaps are not so noisy. The engines obviously obstruct the view, but as aviation enthusiasts we just know not to let the ticket agents sit us in a row we can't see out of!!!!

The NW Jet Airlink Avro 85 had 16First Class seats, 69 Main cabin and is comparable to a smaller DC-9-10 is terms of capacity. The first class is a really nice bonus!

Are all of United Express BAe146s at ORD 3-3 or is it just one particular aircraft. The UAE BAe146 I was on was 2-3 and the Ansett Australia BAe146 was also 2-3.

They are still however a cool looking aircraft. I love the way the wings droop down...it makes it look kind of like dumbo the elephant!
 
Jmc777
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 8:02 am

I fly from LGW-NCE at least once a month, as I have friends who live down there and my ID90 allows me to fly Cityflyer. The service is fine but at 6 abreast it is too much if you are seated in 'A' or 'F' you have to sit sideways. seatpitch is fine but the seat width leaves an awful lot to be desired. To a point where you have to sit sideways to get a decent flight which can be tough if the person next to you is 10 tonne tessie!!!!!!

Also, I'm sure there was a lot of publicity regarding fumes in the cabin which affected the crew and passengers on a lot of flights, Air UK and Swissair to name two.

Regards
jmc777  
 
sccutler
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 8:06 am

Yeah, they're a little loud (but that howling noise on flap deployment is good entertainment, especially when you watch 146 newbies get wide-eyed and worried); and the seats at the back with no window and a view of the loo... suck.

But, hey, look at 'em this way: they bring true jet service and speed to lots of places that simply couldn't have it before. And they're stout and reliable.

It was quite the thing when you could pop up and down the California coast on the AirCal and PSA 146s.

But if I booked a flight on one, and the cabin was configured 3-3, I believe I'd demand my money back. That's just plain wrong.

Ciao.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
AC183
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 8:12 am

MEL, the 146's are all the same width, but the airline chooses if they configure them with a tight 6 abreast seating configuration, or a roomier 5 abreast layout.

I agree with Samurai777, I personally like the 146's. The flap noise is no big deal, and they're generally fairly quiet, both to passengers inside and to people on the ground. I've flown the AirBC and AirNova 146's, as well, and with 5 abreast seating I really like them- they are quite spacious in terms of legroom as well as width. The engines under the wing don't bother me too much, actually, I like watching the wings work, and you can see downward with the high wing like that. Also, as to comments on the speed of the aircraft, on 2 hour flights I didn't notice any significant difference in flight time over other aircraft. The lack of audio/video is a drawback on AirNova/AirBC, however.
 
Greeneyes53787
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 10:34 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 9:18 am

The BAe 146 needed modifications when it first came to the US. PSA worked well with the British and made good changes.

I flew on PSA's 146s several times. These examples were roomy and the most attractive interiored of any commercial aircraft to date (for me).

I never had a lot of faith in this craft, but it seemed to perform the way it was designed.

FLAPS

If the flaps were louder than the engines--one might praise the engines for their quiet. This has been considered the quietest airliner in the world.

Of course the Convair 880 still holds the distinction as being the quietest inside of any commercial aircraft (& 990). But the 880 sounds like 2-f4s with afterburning on the outside.

Therefore the BAe 146 could be quiet outside and loud inside.

GE
 
Guest

SegmentKing

Fri Sep 22, 2000 9:21 am

If the sole 146-100 is based out of Chicago how does it fly DEN-ASE, seems to me that it would be based out of DEN. I have flown that route many times and have never seen the 3x3 config. Also, this route is flown using more than one aircraft, especially during the winter.
 
kaitak
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RE: Maybe I Don't Hate It Quite That Much . . .

Fri Sep 22, 2000 2:51 pm

. . . but I still don't like it.

Looking at my first post, I should of course, have said that I mostly fly with Jersey/British European. We are losing our JER-LHR route, which is now 320s (mmm . . . nice) and after November, London (LGW) will be a choice of 146s or RJ100s. It was just the thought of it.

Sorry, BA, I certainly didn't intend to start any wars; it's just that I didn't imagine anyone actually liking the aircraft. Give me a 737 or a 320 anyday.
 
F+ Rouge
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue May 16, 2000 3:49 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 4:53 pm

Hi,

BA is right when he says that it is the airline and not the aircraft. I flew the BAe 146/Avro RJ with Sabena (operated by DAT), Lufthansa Cityline, Eurowings and Hamburg Airlines (has ceased operation in the meantime). Only the latter had a 3-3 cabin layout the others dispose of very comfortable leather seats in a
2-3 configuration and have much legroom and a very roomy cabin.

The lower cruising speed is not really relevant for overall travel time (block time), at least on intra-European sectors.

Regards

F+ Rouge
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: I Hate The 146!

Fri Sep 22, 2000 6:42 pm

O please! If any aircraft is cramped, it only depends on the AIRLINE! I think you have never flown the AVRO RJ "Jumbolino" of Crossair. They are not cramped at all with their 2-3 seating and enough legroom.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

United Express BAe 146s (again)

Sat Sep 23, 2000 1:16 am

hey guys, just fyi-- i've been on every tail # of BAE 146 flown by Air Wisconsin, and I know the operations guys in Appleton, Wi office and O'Hare----> so trust me a lil, k?

heh..

The 146 is listed as a 146-100 description in all of the CRS in the US... I have no idea why, but they don't use series specific codes for the jets (like 73S for 737-200, 733 for -300, 734 -400, 735 - 500, 73G -700, etc). AWAC places the aircraft on a specific route about a month to 3 months in advance, depending on the airport. Denver operations, with exemptions of ASE, use the 88 variant seat models because they do not require air stairs, so the last row (I believe 18) has 2 x 2 wheras some of the aircraft have just a lonely seat beside the compartment storing the air stairs (kinda a cramped seat). A few of the planes even have 5 seats in row one because of this.. while others were just modified to include a larger galley and crew storage area.

The BAE 146-300s are all, as far as I know, dedicated to heavy flights out of both Denver and Chicago, and occasionally will fly DEN - MLI - PIA (overnight) then do PIA to ORD via MLI with a change of planes (that flight normally continues on to Denver) or they will do DEN - MKE. SBA sees the 146-300 and rarely gets a -200.... and the 146-100 can be seen frequently in SDF and LEX, even though I can't figure this one out.....

Nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Aer Lingus
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Kaitak

Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:12 am

I told you to prepare for the criticism !!!

 

Martin
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: I Hate The 146!

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:56 am

From a passenger´s point of view I like the ARJ85. I´ve flown on it with LH CityLine, and unlike any other regional plane, gives you the feeling of being in a real plane. Compared to the CRJ, CityLine´s other aircraft, it´s way better: you can´t stand upright in a CRJ, xou really see it´s just a stretched Challenger.
But I heard that CityLine are quite unhappy with their ARJ, due to significantly higher maintenance costs of four engines.
Martin/Aer Lingus, this is not criticism: I just state my opinion and the reasons for it; so does Kaitak - I don´t want to convince him or talk him into my opinion, and this isn´t a war or hatred, BA - just stating the facts as I see them.
Daniel  
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:42 am

I've flown on all the original 146 series the RJ75 and 100.

The latter, being an upgrade show some improvements over the early machines. The flaps are certainly quieter and the engines (originally built for helicopters) are extremely quiet.

As for the 3x3 seating, this was originally designed for the US market where the original sector length concept was a maximum 75 minutes.

My only criticism - no emergency exits between the front and rear doors
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: I Hate The 146!

Sat Sep 23, 2000 9:49 am

To me the Avro RJ doesn't feel like an RJ at all. I've been on many different RJ's including the Canadair Regional Jet. Well, to me the Avro RJ, doesn't feel like an RJ at all. It feels like an airliner, like a 737 and A320. In bad weather RJs shake around quite a bit, while when I was in a Avro RJ 100, I didn't feel a thing except for a few light bumps, just like if I were in a 737 or A320. Now I don't know why you don't like the Avro RJ, but everyone is intitled to their own opinion.

Kind regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran

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