Guest

BA's Livery Changed?

Fri Sep 22, 2000 5:10 pm

has BA decided to drop the world images scheme? im not surprised they were quite bad except for the more subtle ones like "Waves of The City","Golden Kol...something","Delft Blue" and "Chelsea Rose" the Chinese one was also ok in the brighter ones i liked the South African scheme, what about the Union flag on the Concorde? does that also get replaced with the new flag? hope so, it will look different.


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PIA or Pakistania 
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Fri Sep 22, 2000 5:17 pm

That was flying art, just impressive! I cannot believe how ignorant people are...
The whole BA fleet in that boring thing of red, blue and white now... What is it? The real Union Jack would look much better. That thing now looks like a colored napkin that has been catched by the aircraft's tail in the wind while take off...

Why not keep the Chelsea Rose, Benyhone or Grand Union? These are British designs, but still not 'British' enough, right? Nationalistic crap!


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:39 pm

I'm in the minority..but I liked BA's world image. It made LHR and LGW a lot more interesting. I think it was creative and grossly underrated when compared to a lot of the 'cookie cutter' schemes out there......
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:57 pm

Loved the BA world-tail schemes.
It showed that the airline was hip, cool, and way ahead of the competition.
The new Union Jack colors looked good on the Concorde, but look dreadful on a 747. The airline napkin comparison had me in stitches.

It appears that complaining Thatcherites (yes, they still unfortunatley exist) clamored on and on about BA losing its identity as a "British" airline with quote, unquote "all those third world" designs on her tail. Yep, those old tories don't mince their words.

I agree that some were bad, but the vast majority were great !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 12:55 am

i dont like the new union flag on the 747's either and wish i get to see world images live before theyre gone, actually id heard that British airways were going to retain world images on 60% of their fleet, so why the change then? it would be good to see the Concorde in the new flag livery. 
.....up there with the best!
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 1:11 am

The World Images was tacky, muddled their global image, and cost them a lot of business. It was one of the stupidest management decisions made and demonstrates total ineptitude and arrogance.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:12 am

I'm afraid CO is right; and that is why Ayling got the sack.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:27 am

Personally, I am glad to see the demise of the World Images because not only were they awful (in my opinion) but they also blurred BA's image and its nationality. Every national airline should be proud of its heritage - something that is often achieved by many of the Asian airlines such as MH and SQ.
The St George design being applied to many of the BA aircraft is not only an excellent mix of national pride and heritage but it is also modern.
BA should be proud to be British and in adopting the World Images scheme, I beleive that they lost many passengers who were rightly upset about BA's perceived dropping of its Britishness.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:31 am

Bcl,
It's a "trendy" Union Jack!!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:39 am

I thought Ayling got the sack for a bunch of reasons that had precious little to do with the aesthetics of the World tails. In fact, consumer opinion was almost mixed concerning the new tails, as is shown by the varying responses on here. I'm not sure I buy the muddled image argument, because BA are so well known and have such a rock-solid reputation, that they could paint their planes pea-green and still have passengers lining up to fly their planes.

BA had a slew of labor problems at around the time the World Tails logo was launched (at enormous expense, I may add). Minimal raises, declining stock options, more US based competition, the hiring of temps to process work, ageing 747-100s, etc. Plus, Branson's Media machine did some pretty slick work at portraying BA as a greedy behemoth that disobeyed every anti-trust law possible.

Still, the sight of a multitude of 747 and 777 tails at T-4 at LHR with the backdrop of a setting sun was always a glorious sight !


Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 3:03 am

Jaysit;

In Britain, the vast majority of BA's customers were totally disgusted by the tails. Remember Margaret Thatcher?? (She placed a hankercheif over a "World Images" tail of a model plane, within a BA exhibit, and claimed "We fly the British flag, not this..."
Quite right too.

Sorry, the world images fiasco has a lot to do with Ayling's sacking. He made a BIG mistake which cost the airline many millions of ££, which could have been invested in far better things. The investors (including my Father), were horrified, and from that day on, "annoyed" was a gross understatement of how they felt about Ayling's decision.

You sighted other factors. Well I'm no expert, I'll leave that to someone else to explain.

The above opinion is shared by many BA investors, and ultimately, the majority of the UK public. I don't care about the foreign public, it's a BRITISH airline based in Britain. Full stop.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 3:17 am

To answer Paksitania's question, BA is converting all World Image liveries to the "Stylised Union Jack" as seen on the Concorde.

I have a mixed opinion about the whole World Image debate. I think that BA should keep the British designs on their aircraft, either doing each a/c type in a single tail, the franchisees could use the World Image design that is homogenous to their country, Comair-South African design, Maersk-Danish, etc...

There were simply, IMHO, too many designs, but I do think this marketing idea was a little ahead of its time. Just think if the BA/KLM merger had gone through, would it be one airline and how would the Dutch like BA as their "national" airline?
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 3:51 am

I'm a non-UK customer but I agree: it's a British airline based in Britain. Udo, I'm amazed by your comment as usually your messages deserve nothing but respect. But this "Nationalistic crap!" reminded me of "internationalists" in Latvia that couldn't get why the Latvian flag is no more a kind of Red Banner. Not a direct analogy, of course, just the same words...

P.S. Honestly, their words there were much more hot  ...
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:02 am

And BTW,
No offence to non-Brits at all; I'm simply saying that one of Britain's main airlines (or flag carrier, although Virgin can also claim to take that position-just look beneath their cockpit windows!), should really aim to act as a "Representative" or "Ambassador" to the country of origin.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:08 am

BA's proposed mergers do raise an interesting question concerning Airline identity. Clearly, a large number of the British public still consider BA to be a "british" national entity, answerable to the british public although technically BA is a private corporation. So, even though the British public may still consider BA to be their national airline (a debatable premise, but valid still the same), how will the airline market itself and the merged party to a pan-European public?

Would they go in for a bland euro scheme, change their name (not an impossible idea, given that BOAC used to be a brand name that gave way to BA pretty easily), go in for a NW-KLM type marketing scheme where each airline continues to propagate its brand name, or just subsume the other airline? If the last scenario occurred, I assume that citizen's of the other country would be furious. After all, nationalism to some degree does exist everywhere, especially in places you would least likely to expect it. I also believe that the now-dying/defunct BA-KLM merger would have been a clear cut case of ownership rather than a mere marketing-partial ownership paradigm that the KLM-NW scheme was based on.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
777X
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:44 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:15 am

As far as I'm concerned, the world tails were great (with a few exceptions) and for once I agree wholeheartedly with Udo.

BA has to compete in a world market, marking itself first and foremost as British may play well in Britain, but not so well outside.

How many other airlines claim 'the british really know how to travel' (what a load of crap - ever tried British Rail? or it's new replacements)

my 2c
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:27 am

777x

To be honest, I think foreigners don't think any differently of BA, whether they fly a British flag, or a Spanish one (pure example). In the end, people abroad will know BA as being either a good airline, or a bad one, regardless of the cartoons on the tails.

However, BA has to answer to it's investors demands (within reasonable limits), after all, it's their (the investor's) money; they should have a say on most aspects of running the airline, including the way the planes look.

Whilst I readily accept many foreigners, enthusiasts loved the schemes, I have met many of my father's collegues (American, British, South African, Australian businessmen), who preferred* the old "To Fly-To Serve" scheme.

In the end though, they didn't really care, so long as the service remained the same, and the seats continued to get larger 

*In italics, because although they preferred, they didn't really care what the plane looked like, as long as they could see the words "British Airways", somewhere! 
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:33 am

Can tell nothing about British Rail as never tried it (except Heathrow Express which is probably the best train I ever saw) but I tried both NY and London subway. Should I comment the difference and say which of them is crap (not "load of crap", it may be understood wrong way, 777x... meaning it was a load of crap when you were trying it... shame on me   , I know I'm offensive, I'm really sorry  )?

P.S.There are plenty of things American say they "know how to do" so what? Especially as they really do know. Why can't British?

P.P.S. I live in NY, like the city very much as well as London that I visited only twice.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:41 am

RIX and Co;

I am ashamed to say this, but "British Rail" (or just British rail Co's in general), are a complete shambles, and an embarrassment, especially when foregners get on the train here.

They're stuck in the 80's. A typical Birmingham-London service takes THREE HOURS (sorry, unacceptable, look at France's TGV service between Paris and Lille, and Spain's AVE train, from Madrid-Seville; much larger distances, and done in 2hours!)

Our trains are: Slow, dirty, a complete and utter rip-off, hardly on-time,.....

A shame really. 
 
777X
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:44 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:52 am

Have to agree that the Heathrow express is great! Having lived in London for 4 years, it was a wonderful experience when that alternative to Heathrow arrived.

Yes, the title British Airways should appear somewhere highly prominent (otherwise who would know?) but I find the varied tails very becoming on the whole. IMHO it was just a few bad tail designs that caused the whole upset to begin with.

Regards
777x
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:57 am

I guess Picard has it right.
BA has to continue to answer to its share holders and its passengers up front who by and large tend to be male, anglo-saxon, and conservative. The World tails ethos was a bit too multi-culti and trendy for a lot of the share holders.

I'm not surprised they liked the old "to fly, to serve" coat of arms. When it first debuted, it was new and striking, yet formalistic in keeping with the 1980s.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:02 am

And having said ALL that I quite liked the Scottish "Benyhone" livery!! ....call me a hypocrite 
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:02 am

Nothing to discuss as I said I never tried it. All I can do is to listen to those who tried (no 1% of sarcasm).

Regards,
RIX
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:09 am

How about an updated version of the old Navy blue and gold BOAC livery, I say.

That should make everyone happy.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:25 am

Don't know about BOAC variants (like them very much though), but the SPEEDBIRD!
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:44 am

The whole idea behind the global images fiasco was that BA's (specifically Ayling's) market research people are/were comprised of people who had no idea of how to run an airline - they thought that selling airline seats was the same as selling Mars bars, to coin one example.

For example, Mike Batt, sometime head of BA marketing used to work for Mars.

However, airline seats are more than just a product on a shelf.

BAs research people took the following facts:

1. BA flies more international pax. than anyone else.
2. BA flies to a large number of dests. worldwide.

The concept behind the world images was that a passenger flying from Nairobi to Lagos (for example) would choose British Airways - this was behind the stated aim of becoming the 'undisputed leader in world travel'. BA wanted to be the world's local airline - so much so that they considered pre-97 to dropping 'British' from the name. However, this policy could never work - the service on board deteriorated as staff were pressured into learning more languages, learning more about social attitudes from obscure places etc. It may be a shame that it couldn't work, but that's not here or there. This caused mentioned cabin crew strike.

What the BA people didn't grasp was that people flew BA precisely because it was 'British' - the cool, professionalism of pilots and cabin crew, the excellent understated service (never mind Branson and the on-board pornography of the masseuse) and the fact that when you had been evacuated from an African hellhole (as my father was) onto a British Airways Jumbo you felt as if you were home.

On the north Atlantic for example, the most stated reason for flying BA by premium passengers was the British aspect.

So, the tails were a completely ill-researched move. They were revolutionary, but they detracted so much from BA's core values that they had to be removed.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:47 am

Hey 777er,

I liked the African Hell Hole bit  Very true!
Where have you been? Pilgrimage?! How did the exams go??
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:54 am

Exams were quite disappointing, but got my second choice of Newcastle to do Politics - I see from your prof. you are at Cambridge - very good.

But why the name change...

Bit reeling from the GF accident in BAH though - my Dad was in a bit of a flap coz we were in the UK when it happened.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 6:54 am

But even though the tails reflected different cultures, the name was still "BRITISH AIRWAYS!"

What made BA particularly attractive was its employment of cabin crew from the countries it served. I believe it was one of the first carriers to have foreign-based cabin crew serve with its British crew. For example, what made BA particularly attractive to, say, Indian passengers was the presence of indian language speaking cabin crew on board. So, I'm not sure about making staff on board "learn about obscure cultural attitudes." BA learned early to hire cabin crew who understood the cultural attitudes of the people it served, and over the years managed to rid itself of the racial and ethnic on-board discrimination that was synonymous with BOAC and the early years of BA. The presence of Kenyan cabin crew on a Nairobi-LHR flight doesn't make BA any less British. In part, I guess, because the Kenyan cabin crew strived to be even more British than the Brits on board (a personal observation based on 4 flights on this sector).

Over the years BA became a trendsetter, resulting in such stodgy stalwarts such as Lufthansa employing non-german cabin crew for its flights to Japan, India, China, etc.

(As far as North American routes go, that issue doesn't arise because we in America still think that anyone/thing with a British accent is a superior being. Some of the strange pronouncements I've heard from fellow passengers on US-UK BA flights makes me wonder about us Americans !)

World tails or not, BA are still one of the few truly global airlines around, and could have played their cards right and could have further established themselves as such. I guess what Ayling was trying to do was establish a Global airline with British standards of professionalism, punctuality, and style. Too bad it didn't work.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 6:55 am

Actually, I must admit I find politics (especially with the fuel/ecclestone donation/pension fiasco) happening all at once, very interesting.

You should look out for Peter Brooke's excellent politcal sketches at the back of The Times (I was going to paste Thursday's into this post, but it's not .jpg) They're a great laugh.

Should your Dad have been in BAH or something? Yes, I can imagine the fallout from the accident, esecially since it involved "expat airways".

Anyways, my A-Levels weren't up to scratch either, so I had a lot of grovelling to do. Seeing as I'm doing Geography (please, we DON'T just colour in World Maps), it wasn't very difficult.

Hope to see you around. (Virtually, of course )
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 7:01 am

Jaysit;

I also flew the Jomo Kenyatta-LHR routes frequently; yes Kenyan crew were charming, Kidogo sana, mzuri sana bwana!!  The "First Class lounge" was a bit of a laugh though. Fancy allowing the mere mortals in Club share it with FIRST pax   

The UK-Argentina BA2267 service is also filled with beautiful argentine FA's. Si senor!! 

I agree, that's a great policy of BA's, hiring someone who can actually speak the lingo without that horrendous British accent!
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 7:11 am

Dad - Out of Bahrain - Holiday in UK (Why oh why do we come here for holidays?).

From what I have heard, if "expat airways" was "expat airways plus a few more expats for good measure" I would be flying "expat airways" again. I'll drop you a line to give you the goss. As it is it is BA from now on. Can't wait for the pension to start in Jun 01 either!

BA's policy of local FAs HAS to be applauded - the Bahrainis on the BA124/125 are some of the best I have experienced. However, what Ayling wanted to do would have required about 100 FAs on each a/c!!
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 7:16 am

Okey Dokey.
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 7:17 am

Check your email and follow instructions
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 7:17 am

Yes!
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 7:19 am

EK A340??? What's up amigo??!
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:45 am

The World Images Tails were awesome...The new tails with all the same livery is B-O-R-I-N-G. BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it doesn't surprise me that some stodgy Brits may have complained. I mean, the biggest one did right? Thatcher?

The service never changed....
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:27 pm

Well, well it seems that the "World's favourite Airline" Didn't exactly do the world's favourite thing... I also agree that they looked horrendous with those color schemes and can't help to think about those millions of pounds wasted... Bet you other airlines are loving it though!!! I must say, however, that BA made a valiant step in trying to be different. To bad they stepped in sh..!!!
 
Guest

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:32 pm

Yes Surf, I'm a stodgy Brit, and proud of it! 

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
 
Laserjet
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2000 5:01 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Sat Sep 23, 2000 5:50 pm

The world images tails, were awful, and the new Union Jack is trendy. I can always remember seeing the news item of the unveiling of the new world images colourscheme, showing Margaret Thatcher's reaction, which was to try and cover it up again - saying it was awful.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: BA's Livery Changed?

Mon Sep 25, 2000 3:34 pm

Thatcher has always acted and reacted foolishly...

Thanks to Bob Ayling for trying to realize a great idea!


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...

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