Ryefly
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Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:21 am

The 737 has been the bread and butter for Southwest and now with so many sizes to choose from its hard to see them in anything else. Even so do you eventually feel Southwest will take on some widebodies in the future for high capacity markets or even go international? for fun What aircraft would best suit them? The 757-300 would seat up to 289 in a 1-class configuration which would be 100 seats more then the 737-900. As for the widebody market here are the choices from Boeing.
767-200 (up to 285 pax 1-class)
767-300 (up to 351 pax 1-class)
767-400 (up to 375 pax 1-class)
777-200 (up to 440 pax 1-class)
777-300 (up to 550 pax 1-class)
747-400 (N/A)

From Airbus no single class configurations was available on the airbus site. I could only find two and three class conversions. So you will have to estimate sorry.

A330-200
A330-300
A340-200
A340-300

I would think Southwest would stay with Boeing if they ever went to a widebody or even a larger single isle plane then the 737-900. Of the selections anything over the 767-400 would more then likly be too big. The 767-200ER would seem like a good choice to start off on and if its sucessful get a couple 767-300's or 400's.

 
USAFHummer
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:24 am

I don't think it will happen for a while, as they just placed that huge order of 737 NG's, and while maybe they need the extra capacity, the economics just won't work out now.

G.R.
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:25 am

They are ordering some 767-200's. The announcement will be made tomorrow from their WHQ in Dallas.
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:39 am

Are you sure chieftan? I thought boeing was done with the 762s. Besides, it would make more sense to buy the 753 with its incredible economics? Are you joking and I am just to thick to p up on it?
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:42 am

You're thick alright.... 
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:47 am

I don't see Southwest buying anything else besides 737's. Part of why Southwest is able to keep its overhead costs down is that they have standardized on one type of aircraft. This means a smaller parts inventory and less time having to certify pilots for different aircraft types among other things. They get very good economies of scale by having only one aircraft type in the fleet.

Charles
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Ryefly
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:23 am

I understand the current Southwest strategy. That has worked out for them strongly so far. However adding a fleet of say 30 widebodies to a major airline would not effect them but rather help them in the long run. I would think eventually Southwest would not want to restrict itself to North America. And who if available would take a 737 over seas? I certianly wouldn't no matter how cheap the ticket was.

Besides this is for fun.. if you don't think Southwest will ever get planes larger then a 737 write that down. But if you thought a widebody is not totally out of the question have some fun and pick a plane.
 
redngold
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:32 am

I think a 757 or two would look really good... And would work if they decide to start bypassing DAL and STL for, say BWI-LAX... Do they do that already?

redngold
(figure out which airline I luv by my login)  
Up, up and away!
 
blink182
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:54 am

I hope they don't but if they do, I would like to see some 777's and 757's and 767's in WN colors (see how ugly they would look)   but I am not sure if anyone, including me would want to fly overseas on a 737, and get a couple of rounds of drinks and peanuts, C'MON, I asked for service on a long haul, not 45 minute flight service   but not to break up an argument, Go AA, keep WN in the states  
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:55 am

A fleet of A3XXs...that would be just the ticket for WN, no?    

Corey777
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:58 am

WN is ordering 762's? Now ehere did you get that from?

It just doesnt make sense.
 
desertjets
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 12:16 pm

A Southwest 777-300... seating about 500. I'd feel sorry for the poor bastard that got boarding card #500. Southwest would really then be a cattle car!!
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Ryefly
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 1:09 pm

LOL DesertJets!  

IndianGuy, Chieftain was just being smart. There is no plans for a 767-200 atleast not yet  
 
fjnovak1
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 1:38 pm

They'd never order the 737-900 because its only certified to carry up to 189 passengers (and in one class that is a big seat pitch)....the 737-800 and -900 are both listed as carrying 189 people in one class, because if they go above that that is 757-200 territory. Therefore, I don't think that Southwest will ever operate the 737-900, but maybe they will order the 737-800 that will seat about 180 people for them. Perhaps they could use it to expand to Hawaii, although I doubt it.
Go Blue!!
 
aatripleseven
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 2:46 pm

Southwest would cease being "Southwest" if it ordered wide bodies. They know what they are doing and are doing just fine. I doubt they will ever invest in wide-bodies.
 
777guy
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 3:01 pm

The main reason for staying with B737's are the 15 minute turnarounds.Try that with a 500 passenger B777.Also Southwest is high frequency carrier in their markets.
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 3:06 pm

Hea guys....ever heard of Aloah? They use the 737-700 from OAK to OGG and HNL. Not a bad ride either. Don't think Southwest wouldn't try the same thing if they think they can make a buck or two. Also Boeing used HNL as a fueling point when proving the 700's. That sure brought tears to United with they saw that on the ground in HNL.
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:58 pm

As to ordering a wide body, I think that with a fleet getting near 300 737s, it's doubtful they would want another type in the fleet.
And flying overseas? Whats the matter with you? If the plane is flying for four hours who cares what it's flying over, mountains, desert, forrest, water or cities do not affect the aircraft at all.
Here in Australia both Qantas and Our Neighbour Air New Zealand operate the 737 between our two countries. It's the same as flying the same plane to to Perth but going the other direction!
 
HyperMike
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:36 am

You're missing the point, folks.

As long as Boeing makes the 737, Southwest will fly them. But I believe, more accurately, that as long as Southwest flies the 737, Boeing will make them. Southwest made the decision to stick with a single aircraft type about 30 years ago, and it hasn't stopped working. (sans the brief entry of the leased Braniff 727s)

Based on what I know about Southwest, there are several rules to how they work.

Rule #1 is simplicity. Any crew can fly any plane to just about anywhere. A 767 changes that drastically.

Rule #2 is speed and high utilization. A 767 would probably as much ground time as it would flying time for Southwest. That's terribly inefficient in their system. You can't turn around a 767 in 25 minutes.

Rule #3 is commonality. While this isn't as important for other airlines, its critical for Southwest. A 767 introduces a whole new maintenance ordeal for them. It also involves training pilots, ground crews, and flight attendants.

Rule #4 is cost. Did you ever notice that every Southwest flight has three flight attendants. Flying the 737-400 or the 737-800 would require an additional flight attendant.

Rule #5 is frequency. Remember the "Just say when" campaigns from Southwest? If a route shows higher volume, most carriers switch to a bigger plane. Southwest adds more flights.

Southwest has stayed with one type of aircraft for almost thirty years. I believe they'll stay with that same type of aircraft as long as Boeing makes them.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:52 pm

I think the biggest factor in WN keeping with the 737 is this: 15-20 minute turnaround times.

WN wants to a plane that is ready to "push back" from the parking ramp in (ideally) 15 minutes after arrival, and no way they can do that with a 757-200, let alone a 767! That's why they've stuck with the 737 series from the -200 to -700 models. Using WN's methods of turning around a plane, they're probably need about 25-30 minutes to turn around a 757-200.
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Thu Sep 28, 2000 11:43 pm

Never say never, but WN will NEVER order anything other than 737 (as long as its produced), or go Int'l. They have found the perfect niche market for them and they're not going to screw it up by flying 747's all over the world.

Read the book Nuts (don't remember the author), it explains in detail the WN philosophy.
 
nwa man
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RE: Redngold

Fri Sep 29, 2000 9:25 am

Southwest flies such routes as BWI-PHX and MDW-LAS, but they don't fly coast to coast (as far as I know) anymore. They used to fly BWI-OAK, but seem to have discontinued that route. I remember reading an article on surviving that route on WN in Business Week. The passengers got a sandwich and a few bags of peanuts, if I recall correctly.
Create your own luck.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Nwaman

Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:13 am

WN flew BWI-OAK once - it was on Thanksgiving day, and it was a sort of "trial run" to see what they would need to do - like what to do with trash on a flight that long. They never "discountinued that service" . Most likely the passengers got a "snack pack" consisting of a turkey stick, crackers, cheese, and a fruit cookie, and peanuts if you wanted them. That's not too much less than what you get on a "major" airline. When they deplaned they also got their choice of a frozen turkey or a bottle of Wild Turkey Bourbon. Also, look at your map, and take a geography quiz...LAS is farther west than LAX. Strange but true, and they do offer a BWI-LAS nonstop, so while they may not fly "coast to coast", they most certainly do fly transcon. I have "survived" a WN nonstop from MCI-OAK. IT was actually more enjoyable than the DFW-LAX that I flew on DAL and AA.
 
Matt D
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The Earth Is Actually A Trapezoid

Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:21 am

I don't know what map you were looking at, but LAS is not-and I emphatically repeat NOT further west than LAX. I can't imagine how else to prove it other than by looking at a map. But consider this: When flying from LAS to LAX, the plane will depart to the west, turn slightly south, then turn west again. The plane never, and I mean NEVER flies east of Mccarran Int'l.....not without turning back.
 
Matt D
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:28 am

LAX:
34 deg n latitude
118.2 deg w longitude

LAS
36.2 deg n latitude
115.1 deg w longitude

This should lay this issue to rest.
 
jmc1975
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Fri Sep 29, 2000 12:24 pm

From what I hear from other SWA employees and through the grapevine, they're ordering the A3XX.

Actually to be honest, I've heard that in light of the fact they have huge orders for the 737-700, they will be retiring the -200s first, and then retire the -500s. Southwest tries to simplify as many aspects of its operation as possible...the -700 and -300 models both hold 137 pax, whereas the -500 and -200 hold 122 pax. Ultimately, they want all aircraft to have the same capacity, because it would simplify things on the front line (such as not dealing with aircraft downgrades and having only one seatmap, somewhat like JetBlue). Southwest is not the airline that seeks capacity, but rather frequency. Eight 737-700s (or -300s) per day would be more convenient for passengers than four 767-200s or one A3XX.
.......
 
goingboeing
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MattD

Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:29 pm

My bad Matt -I should have said Reno. At any rate, with LAX and LAS being only about 250 miles apart, don't you think BWI-LAS would pretty much qualify as a "transcon"?
 
LHMark
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:39 pm

Yeah. It's not the aim of every airline to grow into a monster international carrier. WN knows what it does best and, surprisingly for a large corporation, seems to know its limitations. Their purpose is not to dominate, but to make a ton of money. That being said, how much would it screw up their plans if they threw a couple of 757s into the mix?

"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
TimeForFlight
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:52 pm

I hope Southwest will expand beyond their 737s one day. I read that one reason for their success was that they stick to only 737. Unlike other unsuccessful carriers (Reno Air in particular) Southwest has always stuck with a single "family" of airliners. Reno Air ventured out into the Boeing/Douglas market and used a variety of aircraft, this forcing them to spend more on training and maintenance; Southwest sticks with only the 737s, therefore they have the ability to train pilots and groundcrew at cheaper costs... Kinda like buying in bulk - the more you get the more you save. I don't see Southwest expanding anytime soon. Although it would be nice to see a widebody Southwest pull into a gate at Nashville, the potential is low. If they were to expand however, I believe that they would stick mostly with the 767s. The 767 just looks like a SW bird.
In addition, would you really want to fly internationally on SWA? Think about it - anywhere between 2 and 3 hundred people scrambling to get a good place in line hours before the flight so they can get a boarding card in 1-30.... That and the meals - oops, what meals? - would turn me away. I don't think I could survive a 6+ hour flight on SWA eating only peanuts and drinking Coca Cola.
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Sat Sep 30, 2000 9:51 pm

There is one more interesting idea which will happen one day. Some time Boeing will stop producing the 737, Then Southwest will be forced to introduce a new type or do a roll over change of the entire fleet!
This is years away at the moment but it will happen one day.
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Sat Sep 30, 2000 10:08 pm

ATTN: Goingboeing

You have LAS and RNO mixed up. It is actually RNO that is further west that LAX.

Richard Silagi

 
pablo
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 1:07 am

Southwest needs to enter the New York area market and increase the number of passengers it carries before it can go international.
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 1:40 am

I don't think we'll ever see a WN bird going transatlantic, but I do think that expanding into the Canadian market would be good for them. Besides, it would give AC some competition  

Dash8isgreat
 
AerLingus
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Sun Oct 01, 2000 7:50 am

With the transAtlantic range of the newer 737's, it does not seem too likely that they would need to 'go wide' as it was so eloquently put.
Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
 
EIPremier
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RE: TimeForFlight

Sun Oct 01, 2000 2:47 pm

Reno had a single family---the MD-80. Unless you count the short-lived QQ Express, Reno only operated I 81/2s, 87s and 90s. Southwest operates 732s, 733s, 735s and 73Gs. So, I really don't see how you get the argument that Reno failed because they used "a variety of aircraft."

However, the MD-80s are generally somewhat more expensive in terms of operating costs per hour and aircraft maintenance. There were definitely rumors that QQ maintenance suffered during their financial troubles.

QQ was a Reno based start-up which got a break when they got some of AA's former routes. However, on many of those routes they had to compete head-to-head with both United and Southwest, and I think its impressive that they lasted as long as they did.
 
HyperMike
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 3:01 am

Pablo wrote:
-------------------------------
Southwest needs to enter the New York area market and increase the number of passengers it carries before it can go international.

Nope. That's another one of Southwest's key strategies. They hit underserved markets. You can hardly call New York and underserved market. Now, they are flying into ISP. Long Island is an underserved market when you realize that its a complete pain (according to one of my co-workers) to get to LGA let alone JFK when you live on the island.
 
Critter_592
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 7:07 am

I know Southwest knows what they are doing, but i dont think it will hurt them to have a few daily's to JFK, from LAS;DAL;MCI;MDW and maybe FLL. On the other side, what are they going to do when the 737NG's are out of production? I was thinking since the 757 is still a little young, that they'll go for that. Has there ever been a 757-100? This could be a lead for them????

Chris
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 7:22 am

I expect that Boeing will continue to build 737s for Southwest as long as they continue to buy them.

What you are more apt to see is a "next-next generation 737" and yes WN will be the launch customer...and they'll buy 500 of them....
 
Critter_592
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 7:38 am

What will they call it? The 737-900 is already in the making!

Will the 738/739 be in production forever, just being reconfigered and flight decks updated?
 
N312RC
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 11:47 am

will there be a 737-1000?
N/A
 
Guest

RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:33 pm

I feel if Southwest ever went into Boeing wide body they would go with the 757. plus if they ever start flying say to mex,sal,gua,sap etc. they would need a bigger aircraft. there is only so much you can do with a 737. befor you have to upgrade to a bigger aircraft. Also Dose Southwest fly to HNL? I saw where Aloha airlines started service from HNL/SFO i think. why wont WN do the same?.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Will Southwest Ever Go Wide?

Tue Oct 03, 2000 12:28 am

I doubt you'll see WN heading for Hawaii anytime soon. Tex will tell you that they thought about it several years back -using an L1011 out of Houston - but I don't think they'll go for it soon, even using a 737 out of OAK. With the very unrestricted WN FF program, they'd basically have a plane full of passengers flying on a free ticket. No money to be made doing that.

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