RCS763AV
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Colombian Aviation #6

Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:00 pm

Here we start the sixth thread, with new information about AV's new route London. They are actively seeking slots at LGW and LHR and Efromovich has given a launch date of no longer than the first quarter of 2012, good for them! Strong rumors on the relaunch of LAX have been circling around too. There is also AIRES' new domestic schedules which are giving travelers a lot more flexibility (eg CTG went from 4 daily to 6 daily, CUC from three daily to four...) while Copa Colombia is backing off from the market. Expectation is high towards the entrance of VivaColombia too.

To a good discussion.
 
ba319-131
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:05 pm

I'd love to see AV return to LHR, having flown them earlier this year, I love the feel of them and can't wait to fly them again!
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Avianca
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:20 pm

any news about FRA served by AV and new Spain services (VLC)?
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:41 pm

I expect that LON will be served soon after the next A330 is received, which is just 6 months away, in January 2012, with Perhaps LON starting in March for the Summer season. They could start for this Winter iif necessary, but sacrificing A330 serviice to MIA and maybe SCL too, but I think it unlikely.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):

any news about FRA served by AV and new Spain services (VLC)?


With LH BOG with a perfect schedule for AV-TA connections there, I would find it very unlikely that AV would serve FRA, unless it was in replacement of LH - for whom the route has apparently not been an immediate success (with premium traffic -or lack of enough of it, being the problem)

As for ALC and/or VLC, again, I do think that there is a good chance of seeing it happen, as a total of 3 A330s will be delivered next year. There would even be scope to restart LAX and increase A330 service to SCL.
 
jfk777
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:32 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 3):
With LH BOG with a perfect schedule for AV-TA connections there, I would find it very unlikely that AV would serve FRA, unless it was in replacement of LH - for whom the route has apparently not been an immediate success (with premium traffic -or lack of enough of it, being the problem)

Is the A340-600 too big for Bogota ? Would an A340-300 be better. Lufthansa might have better luck in Barranquilla, Kidding that would not work.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:09 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 3):
unless it was in replacement of LH - for whom the route has apparently not been an immediate success (with premium traffic -or lack of enough of it, being the problem)

I have also heard this but haven't actually seen an official statement or any proof of it being true. They 60J configuration they started sending was a bit too much I must agree, but the 48J seat aircraft they are sending now should do fine.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Is the A340-600 too big for Bogota ? Would an A340-300 be better.

Loads have been very good, and the A340-600 can haul more cargo, which is very important for BOG operations. A -300 would take away a lot of Y seats which wouldn't help the bottom line.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
any news about FRA served by AV and new Spain services (VLC)?

While FRA is most certainly not going to happen (LH isn't even daily), the new Spain services should become a reality next year, as there will be plenty of A330 capacity. I would also expect a boost in BCN services (at least another weekly flight), the route has been a total success.
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:12 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
I have also heard this but haven't actually seen an official statement or any proof of it being true. They 60J configuration they started sending was a bit too much I must agree, but the 48J seat aircraft they are sending now should do fine.

Remember that there are also 8 first class seats that occupy precious space in the A346.
In this interview in April, this is what LH's representative in Colombia said " En Colombia hemos tenido un año bastante bueno, en el segmento turístico superamos lo que habíamos proyectado, aunque en clase ejecutiva estamos algo por debajo de los pronósticos que habíamos hecho en la compañía."

http://www.mercadodedinero.com.co/in...uerto&catid=49:empresas&Itemid=177

So, tourist segment above projections, *but* executive class below their forecasts.
And for an airline like LH, business is what brings home the bacon.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Is the A340-600 too big for Bogota ? Would an A340-300 be better. .

The A343 would surely be better, but apparently it would not be able to take off full from BOG.
In the interview linked above, LH's representative talks about BOG's runway needed to be longer to enable them to have flexibility on aircraft deployment. I take that to mean that they would like to use an A343 even if just by seasons, but that it's not viable.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
I would also expect a boost in BCN services (at least another weekly flight), the route has been a total success.

The route has done well in high season, but low has seen reduced frequencies.
I would bet on 2 extra weekly flights, which would go via ALC. That's how AV applied for the additional BCN frequencies.
VLN would be non-stop.
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:20 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Lufthansa might have better luck in Barranquilla, Kidding that would not work.

Honestly, that could've only be said by you, gotta give it to you, good one....  

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
While FRA is most certainly not going to happen

LON will come first, for sure.


Here´s an interview to Efromovich published in El Tiempo:

http://www.portafolio.co/economia/%E...ambien-se-quedara-pequeno%E2%80%99

*Takes the heat because people is not really happy with the new Lifemiles program.

*Don´t see a market for a FR-like airline (Vivacolombia).


777jaah
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
jfk777
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
Remember that there are also 8 first class seats that occupy precious space in the A346.
In this interview in April, this is what LH's representative in Colombia said " En Colombia hemos tenido un año bastante bueno, en el segmento turístico superamos lo que habíamos proyectado, aunque en clase ejecutiva estamos algo por debajo de los pronósticos que habíamos hecho en la compañía."

http://www.mercadodedinero.com.co/in...uerto&catid=49:empresas&Itemid=177

So, tourist segment above projections, *but* executive class below their forecasts.
And for an airline like LH, business is what brings home the bacon.

LH using the A346 has tons of cargo space, Colombia imports lots of heavy industrial goods from Germany. IS Cargo a bigger factor in this route then lack of selling J class seats ? 279 Y & 66 J and 239 Y/ 60 J/ 8F are the 2 A346 seating configs. on LH. Does LH really sell 239 seats on their plane per flight. While the A346 is not the "perfect" plane for this route its the best LH has and frankly its very good.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:33 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
Remember that there are also 8 first class seats that occupy precious space in the A346.

Of course.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
And for an airline like LH, business is what brings home the bacon.

Cargo brings home the bacon for any airline too. And J loads haven't been abysmal either. I have faith in LH's performance in BOG, he even says that the idea is to have daily flights in a couple of years. And even though it's almost six months old, before they started sending the new A346 configuration and everything, it's an interesting interview, specially for this:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
The A343 would surely be better, but apparently it would not be able to take off full from BOG.
In the interview linked above, LH's representative talks about BOG's runway needed to be longer to enable them to have flexibility on aircraft deployment. I take that to mean that they would like to use an A343 even if just by seasons, but that it's not viable.
LH flew the A343 for years to BOG with no problem (I remember being on the flight back in 2001) and no airline has complained about BOG's runway length in the airport's history (both are over 12400ft long), it just doesn't make any sense. From what he is saying, i wouldn't get the idea of hinting that the A343 could be abetter aircraft for the airport.

Sending the A343 to BOG would give them reduced cargo space and less Y seats, not a good combo for the colombian capital.

On other news, the latest report form Aerocivil is showing a 6,9% increase in domestic passengers for the january-april 2011 period, with AIRES, Satena and Copa showing decreases, while Avianca, Easyfly and Aerolínea de Antioquia are seeing growth. AV's explosive 63% jump is because they absorbed MM's pax, but they still grew in overall pax transported.

http://www.portafolio.co/economia/ae...n-retroceder-crecimiento-pasajeros

Easyfly's growth is impressive.

[Edited 2011-08-08 12:44:31]
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:12 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 9):
LH flew the A343 for years to BOG with no problem (I remember being on the flight back in 2001) and no airline has complained about BOG's runway length in the airport's history (both are over 12400ft long), it just doesn't make any sense. From what he is saying, i wouldn't get the idea of hinting that the A343 could be abetter aircraft for the airport.

I also found it odd that he mentioned BOG's runway length as a hindrance, but I have no reason to disbelieve that if it were even longer, some unnamed airplane type could take off full, which it currently cannot.

He certainly mentions clearly that they would like the flexibility to use another aircraft tyoe. I can only imagine that it would be the A340.. Which other? The A333 is out of the question, I believe.

Which of course can do the route, but the question is of taking a full load: cargo and pax.
The profitability line has moved since 2001 when LH last operated the route. Oil prices have quadrupoled since.

Being able to take a full load of cargo, an A343 might be more profitable -at least in the low season- as the difference between the income and costs might mean black rather than red. The A346 fuel bill for the route is significantly higher,
more crew members are required -who need to be paid salaries and accommodation- and even the airport fees are
higher.

But if a full load of cargo cannot be taken, then the calculations change..

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 7):
*Takes the heat because people is not really happy with the new Lifemiles program.

*Don´t see a market for a FR-like airline (Vivacolombia).

Interesting highlights that you picked out.
On LifeMiles, I find Efromovich very patronising of his customers, essentially saying that the new FF programme is too "sophisticated" for them to understand..

On low cost airlines, he is always warning that they can turn into Air Comet and Air Madrid and reminds of scenes of people left stranded at airports at Christmas time etc.

But on an FR model not working in Colombia is just more barking talk. He should be reminded that Ryanair carries 80m pax a year and has constantly made handsome profits.

Why would the model not work in Colombia? A country that is multi centre, with no trains and road links that are less than perfect and often prone to landslides, and frequent tolls on top.
So an airline like Viva Colombia will look to get pax from buses to airplanes and given the advanges of air travel vs overland, I believe that they can be successful - not necessarily in every route that they propose- but there is a large untapped market that have had no access for air travel due to high fares and who would be very happy to swap a 6, 10 hour or more on a bus for a 1 hour flight.

So Mr Efromovich is most likely deep down fearing Viva, as he must know that they could become a fierce competitor.
If AV -as has been increasingly rumoured- does move A318s to MDE to replace F50s on routes to CLO, BAQ, CTG and SMR, would only show that they want to pre-empt Viva's arrival on those routes with jet aircraft.

[Edited 2011-08-08 15:23:41]
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:39 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
Interesting highlights that you picked out.
On LifeMiles, I find Efromovich very patronising of his customers, essentially saying that the new FF programme is too "sophisticated" for them to understand..

Being a status holder, I really have lot of complaints against the new program. And is not only that I "don't understand" the program, but many glitches such as lost upgrade coupons (not my fault), have to manually add my flown miles (I still don't get why), lounges always full, underserved and understaffed. They've made mistakes, and they know it, but they could improve in so many areas, that not always is about inflight service and having top notch planes.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
On low cost airlines, he is always warning that they can turn into Air Comet and Air Madrid and reminds of scenes of people left stranded at airports at Christmas time etc.

He seems afraid of that competition. Is not the first time he comes out with that excuse.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
So an airline like Viva Colombia will look to get pax from buses to airplanes and given the advanges of air travel vs overland, I believe that they can be successful - not necessarily in every route that they propose- but there is a large untapped market that have had no access for air travel due to high fares and who would be very happy to swap a 6, 10 hour or more on a bus for a 1 hour flight.

That's basically what Easyfly is aiming for, and has been doing quite well. They compete against bus service, and that's their market, not fighting AV, P5 or C4.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
If AV -as has been increasingly rumoured- does move A318s to MDE to replace F50s on routes to CLO, BAQ, CTG and SMR, would only show that they want to pre-empt Viva's arrival on those routes with jet aircraft.

But they will have to fight with different startegies, such as LOW prices. That's how you fight a LCC.


777jaah
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:56 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
The route has done well in high season, but low has seen reduced frequencies.
Quoting 777jaah (Reply 11):
But they will have to fight with different startegies, such as LOW prices. That's how you fight a LCC.

They did fight back at AIRES by offering very good fares, but if Viva's model is more organized towards actually making a profit with the low fares, it might be harder for AV to keep it sustainable in the long term.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 11):
have to manually add my flown miles (I still don't get why),

What is up with that? I have had to manually add all of my flights and haven't gotten one response form Lifemiles, who claim that it will only take them "up to 30 weekdays", I mean, how can it take you two months to process that kind of information? Are they THAT understaffed? Not to mention, I haven't gotten my new card yet.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
I also found it odd that he mentioned BOG's runway length as a hindrance, but I have no reason to disbelieve that if it were even longer, some unnamed airplane type could take off full, which it currently cannot.

He certainly mentions clearly that they would like the flexibility to use another aircraft tyoe. I can only imagine that it would be the A340.. Which other? The A333 is out of the question, I believe.

As always, interviews fail to keep things clear. Certainly using another aircraft could mean the A343, but I wouldn't think it would need a longer runway to take off fully loaded, AF has never complained about this and it's roughly the same distance to CDG.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
The profitability line has moved since 2001 when LH last operated the route. Oil prices have quadrupoled since.

Of course, and some other costs, like crew layovers, have gotten cheaper. But yes, it's much harder to make a profit today than 10 years ago.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 10):
Being able to take a full load of cargo, an A343 might be more profitable -at least in the low season- as the difference between the income and costs might mean black rather than red. The A346 fuel bill for the route is significantly higher,
more crew members are required -who need to be paid salaries and accommodation- and even the airport fees are
higher.

But also remember that the A346 sits a lot more passengers than the A343 does, and Y loads have been consistent on being very high, plus the fact that it can take a lot more cargo. If Y loads were considerably weaker during the low season it would of course be more profitable to fly the A343.
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:29 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 12):
Certainly using another aircraft could mean the A343, but I wouldn't think it would need a longer runway to take off fully loaded, AF has never complained about this and it's roughly the same distance to CDG.

According to the great circle mapper, the difference in distance between BOG-CDG and BOG-FRA is of 450Km.
And that is enough to make all the difference.

An extra 450 Km means at least 40 more min of fuel burning, which at ~7500 Kg/hour on the A343 would mean having to take off with at least 5 tonnes of extra fuel. And that would be around 40 pax and their luggage or a whole a cargo load (LH's has transported around 4 tonnes of cargo per flight ex BOG -though over 10t in the other direction).

Incidently, from Aerocivil's figures, I see that AF carried less than 1t per flight ex BOG, though the figure is about 11t in the other direction.

Even on the 15t mark, I don't think that capacity of A346 vs A343 is relevant. The space is there for the cargo, if only it could be lifted.

On pax, LH's LF's has been 79% Jan to April. I am sure in the peak season it would have been higher, but there's definitely a few months where the loads would have happily fitted on an A343.
 
avi8
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:53 am

How often does AV/TACA recieve new aircraft? Any chance to see a Central American expanssion?
avi8

Medschool student
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:53 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 13):
On pax, LH's LF's has been 79% Jan to April. I am sure in the peak season it would have been higher, but there's definitely a few months where the loads would have happily fitted on an A343.

I can't agree that a 79% load factor could fit on an A343, as most of these seats are Y passengers. The A343 would never be able to carry those Y volumes, also hurting the bottom line.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 13):
According to the great circle mapper, the difference in distance between BOG-CDG and BOG-FRA is of 450Km.
And that is enough to make all the difference.

That is true. I thought the difference was minimal.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 14):
How often does AV/TACA recieve new aircraft? Any chance to see a Central American expanssion?

There really isn't a fix schedule for receiving aircraft, but they are taking in quite a few this year. On the other hand, I have no idea if there will be a Central American expansion, they seem to be focused on BOG and LIM right now. I'm guessing they will need to define the whole SAL/SJO hub situation first.

On other news, Avianca is to start flying daily to FLA (Florencia, department of Caquetá) on Fokker 50 aircraft by the end of september, replacing AIRES's service which was 11x weekly on Dash 8-Q200s. Great for the region of Caquetá, which has been dependent on the very unreliable Satena and their out of reach prices since AIRES quit the route.

http://www.ellider.com.co/2011/08/09/avianca-si-volara-al-caqueta/

Also, it seems that jet service is back in AXM on 2 of the 6 daily rotations which will be flown by A318s.

[Edited 2011-08-10 08:34:31]
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 15):
I can't agree that a 79% load factor could fit on an A343, as most of these seats are Y passengers. The A343 would never be able to carry those Y volumes, also hurting the bottom line.

Well, the version of the A346 that LH was using to BOG had 238 Y seats, the 2 class A343 has a capacity of 222.

But in any case, an airline might prefer to sell less Y seats if it's making a pittance on some fares anyway. By controlling demand, the yields can go up.

I am not the one lamenting that LH has limited flexibility on the aircraft it uses to BOG, and wishing it could use another. It is the airline's general manager for its Colombian operation.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 16):
It is the airline's general manager for its Colombian operation.

It's in a six month old interview and he's not regretting anything. He just says it might make things more flexible if the runway was extended, which is not going to happen and they knew this form the moment they started operating. It's like saying "well it would be profitable is the price of fuel wasn't at $X per gallon and everyone paid $5000 to fly on a two hour flight in Y".

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 16):
Well, the version of the A346 that LH was using to BOG had 238 Y seats, the 2 class A343 has a capacity of 222.

The new A340-600 has 270Y seats and loads have kept equally strong. 48 more seats than the A343. LH has kept strong, and will only keep on getting stronger when a wider codeshare with AVTA comes into effect. The only issue they had was weak loads in J some months ago, which they resolved by sending a less premium configured A346.
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:05 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 17):
It's in a six month old interview

4 months.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 17):
The new A340-600 has 270Y seats and loads have kept equally strong

It's the peak season. lets see what happens next month, and the ones after that.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 17):
LH has kept strong, and will only keep on getting stronger when a wider codeshare with AVTA comes into effect. The only issue they had was weak loads in J some months ago, which they resolved by sending a less premium configured A346

I trust that the feeding of pax to the likes of LIM/UIO/PTY/SJO apart from diferent Colombian cities, reinforced with LH codes on those flights, will ensure that this route prospers for LH, but I don't believe its anywhere a financial sucess as yet.
They have to persevere in any case, as LH have limited choice of gateways to northern South America and Central America.
 
laca773
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
LGW and LHR and Efromovich has given a launch date of no longer than the first quarter of 2012, good for them! Strong rumors on the relaunch of LAX have been circling around too. There is also AIRES' new domestic schedules which are giving travelers a lot more flexibility (eg CTG went from 4 daily to 6 daily, CUC from three daily to four...) while Copa Colombia is backing off from the market. Expectation is high towards the entrance of VivaColombia too.

If AV were to re-start LAX, what type of a/c would they utilize? Is there any chance we might see AV pickup a couple of the young CO 762ERs that have been or are being retired?
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:33 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 19):
If AV were to re-start LAX, what type of a/c would they utilize? Is there any chance we might see AV pickup a couple of the young CO 762ERs that have been or are being retired?

It would most likely be operated by A330, and maybe 787s in a couple of years.
No chance of AV getting 767s again. They actually had to pay penalties in some cases to get rid of all of theirs before the leases had expired.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:14 pm

Speaking about the presence of LH in Colombia, Avianca is already operating a code-share service on behalf of LH in selected routes:

Bogota - Barranquilla
Bogota - Bucaramanga
Bogota - Cali
Bogota - Cartagena
Bogota - Lima
Bogota - Medellin
Bogota - Pereira

The first step seems to be focused into the domestic Colombian market.
BOG-LIM appears as the only international segment operated by AV as part of the code-share cooperation.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 19):
If AV were to re-start LAX, what type of a/c would they utilize? Is there any chance we might see AV pickup a couple of the young CO 762ERs that have been or are being retired?

Why would they do that? The 767 is a long gone model. If the route restarts, it will be operated on the A330, though it would probably go with 3 or 4 weekly flights instead of 5.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):
The first step seems to be focused into the domestic Colombian market.
BOG-LIM appears as the only international segment operated by AV as part of the code-share cooperation.

Indeed, but feed form other destinations is already present too (the second SJO-BOG flight is perfectly timed for those). I'm guessing the next codeshares to come will be on flights to Ecuador and Central America, probably SCL too.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting avi8 (Reply 14):
How often does AV/TACA receive new aircraft?


Taken from an old Colombian aviation thread and dated on March 15th 2011:

Plan for fleet renovation AVIANCA-TACA 2011 - 2015



.................2011.......2012.......2013.......2014........2015......TOTAL

E-190...........2............0...............0.............0..............0...............2
A-319...........0............7...............3.............4..............0..............14
A-320...........9............7...............5.............5..............4..............25
A-330...........2............3...............0.............0..............0................5
B-787..........................................4.............................8..............12

TOTAL.........13..........17...........12.............9.............12




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 22):
I'm guessing the next codeshares to come will be on flights to Ecuador and Central America


That makes sense. I don't think LH would fly to Ecuador and Central America soon.
In my view, LH FRA-BOG on a daily basis would happen first !




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 22):
probably SCL too.


Hmmm...
Rumor has it that LH may return to Lima later and connections might be easier from LIM than BOG.
TAM already flies the GRU-SCL segment on behalf of Lufthansa, in order to match those outbound flights from Sao Paulo operated by LH.


Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:21 am

A new aircraft for Tampa Cargo

Tampa cargo has acquired a 767-300F, previously on service for ANA Cargo registered as JA601F

It's Tampa's 5th 767, though its first -300 series as the 4 others are -200s which were converted after having operated as passenger airliners.
In contrast, the newest member of Tampa's fleet was built as a freighter in 2002 c/n 3340.

The airplane was ferried in an all white colour scheme via LAX to Tampa's base in Medellin, where it will be painted. Its new registration is N771QT.

In previous months Tampa requested authorities for new routes, including St Louis and London. The increase in capacity that the new airplane provides will allow them to expand.
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
A new aircraft for Tampa Cargo

Good news for the airlne.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
including St Louis

I don't get why St louis. Can anyone provide the reason of this?

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
and London

So, AV can fly the 330 with pax to LON and QT take care of the cargo?


On a note taken from El Espectador:

http://www.elespectador.com/noticias...ocaina-avion-de-avianca-llego-eeuu

Authorities might want to increase secutiry at BOG.


777jaah
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Summa767
Posts: 1754
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:19 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 25):
I don't get why St louis. Can anyone provide the reason of this?

I guess it's a big cargo hub.
QT did actually receive authorisation from the US DOT to serve St Louis (both MidAmerican and Lambert/St. Louis International airports). I am not sure if they ever served it, but as far as I can see they have not asked for renewal of authority as yet.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 25):
So, AV can fly the 330 with pax to LON and QT take care of the cargo?

I guess that maybe the idea...
QT has authority from Aerocivil. I guess they would serve STN, which is the main cargo airport for London.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 25):
Authorities might want to increase secutiry at BOG.

Definitely. Obviously there are AV employees at BOG hiding concealing drugs well hidden inside aircraft, and there would also be handlers at places such as IAD that deal with the reception of them.
Many times employees have been caught, but it's clear that new ones just keep doing it.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
It's Tampa's 5th 767, though its first -300 series as the 4 others are -200s which were converted after having operated as passenger airliners.

that's great, they need to acquire some volume in order to survive in the business. Diversification away from MIA is also good.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
Rumor has it that LH may return to Lima later and connections might be easier from LIM than BOG.

Probably, but that doesn't mean they couldn't put their code on AV's flights to SCL. Offering more options to passengers never hurts.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 25):
Authorities might want to increase secutiry at BOG.

Knowing this hadn't happened in a long time, IMO, delinquents are taking advantage of the chaos reigning BOG right now with construction work and the overflow of passengers.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
In previous months Tampa requested authorities for new routes, including St Louis and London. The increase in capacity that the new airplane provides will allow them to expand.

Wow, BOG-STL? Is there that much cargo demand between Colombia and the Midwest US? Or would Tampa have a cargo code-share with say...FedEx/UPS?

On the other hand, BOG-LON is great news, and I'm excited for my fave South American airline. I must've missed it or didnt read it, will this route be on the A330?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
danimarroquin
Posts: 239
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:34 pm

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/traffic/m...ulles-international-airport-081111

more about the Av's A319 at IAD , it seems that it was a big load of cocaine !
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:31 pm

Here are some interesting figures from Aerocivil for the first six months of 2011:

http://www.aviacol.net/noticias-del-...te-el-primer-semestre-de-2011.html

June saw a contraction on total passengers carried by 3,9% compared to the same period of 2010. The six month period showed an increase 6,3% compared to the same period of 2010. The increase in fares is clearly showing now on the domestic market which only grew 3,3%, whereas the international market grew 13,3%.

Avianca grew it's market share by 1,8% to 53,5%, with a 6,9% increase in passengers.
Easyfly had the most growth (we already knew form the jan-april figures) and increased their market share by 1,1%.
On the international market, Colombian airlines have lost terrain to international carriers, as their market share has dropped from 51% to 46%. (This is mainly explained by Avianca leaving their Quito flights to Aerogal and San José to TACA).

Also, troubled Satena has turned around to making an approx. 7.5 million USD dollar profit for the first half of 2011, they cite the replacement of their E145 by ATRs and some cost cutting measures as the reasons, and the airline is also now ready to privatize 49% of it's shares:

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/ae...sera-capitalizada-y-buscara-socios

Also, Colombia and the Dominican Republic have signed a new bilateral treaty, which puts no limit on frequencies and allows each country to be a stopover for flights into europe and the rest of the american continent (almost open skies), this is great news. Let's hope for daily SDQ and PUJ flights soon on AV and more competition for the others. The colombian government cites it's interest in liberalizing colombian skies in equal conditions for colombian airlines and more tourism opportunities to the island as the main reasons for liberalizing the treaty:

http://www.lafm.com.co/noticias/pol-...ana-firmaron-acuerdo-bilateral-reo

[Edited 2011-08-13 07:43:10]
 
laca773
Posts: 2033
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 20):

It would most likely be operated by A330, and maybe 787s in a couple of years.
No chance of AV getting 767s again. They actually had to pay penalties in some cases to get rid of all of theirs before the leases had expired.

Thanks for the information, Summa767. I didn't realize AV returned the 762ERs before their leases expired. Was this because they had gotten way too expensive to operate?
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:02 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 31):
Thanks for the information, Summa767. I didn't realize AV returned the 762ERs before their leases expired. Was this because they had gotten way too expensive to operate?

Apparently so. I don't know figures, but it has been said that the cost per seat of the A330 is much more favourable than that of the 767s. However, on LAX the problem would be filling 70 more seats on the A330 than the 762 that operated LAX, without lowering the already marginal yields.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 28):
Wow, BOG-STL? Is there that much cargo demand between Colombia and the Midwest US? Or would Tampa have a cargo code-share with say...FedEx/UPS?

They let the authority expire, but they were clearly interested. Perhaps with the airplane in the fleet they can retake that interest.
You maybe right in that codeshare or coperation of some sort with a cargo giant would be necessary to make such a route work.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 28):
On the other hand, BOG-LON is great news, and I'm excited for my fave South American airline. I must've missed it or didnt read it, will this route be on the A330?

Nothing solid yet, but they have certainly asked for slots at both LHR and LGW (though at LHR it's obviously very difficult to get the specific slots that they would need in order to fit the international connections bank at BOG, and would require their new Star Alliance mates LH/bmi to help them out)
and they will get aditional A330s next year, starting January -so I can forsee a March start for LON.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 32):
You maybe right in that codeshare or coperation of some sort with a cargo giant would be necessary to make such a route work.

It'd be the only way I would think, or they may be banking that some Asian cargo company will still come to STL and hub it for freighters.


Quoting Summa767 (Reply 32):
Nothing solid yet, but they have certainly asked for slots at both LHR and LGW (though at LHR it's obviously very difficult to get the specific slots that they would need in order to fit the international connections bank at BOG, and would require their new Star Alliance mates LH/bmi to help them out)
and they will get aditional A330s next year, starting January -so I can forsee a March start for LON.

Either way, good news indeed, and I for sure will be on some of the earliest flights!
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 31):
which puts no limit on frequencies and allows each country to be a stopover for flights into europe and the rest of the american continent (almost open skies),

This might be a good thing for the LON flight?? Maybe a BOG-SDQ-LON??

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
The increase in fares is clearly showing now on the domestic market which only grew 3,3%, whereas the international market grew 13,3%.

Aires leaving the LCC model has left an increase in fares, and obviuously, a drop in market share. But that traffic was very price sensitive, and many of it, might not come back to flying and probably go back to bus travelling.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:47 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 34):
This might be a good thing for the LON flight?? Maybe a BOG-SDQ-LON??

Not offering a non-stop would by highly uncompetitive, as all other Colombia-Europe flights are. Where I could see a market is leisure airlines flying Europe-PUJ/SDQ-CTG/ADZ-Europe in the future.

And on the CTG-Europe subject, it's been awfully quiet these days with the supposed Air Europa flights to MAD, is there any information on this?

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 34):
Aires leaving the LCC model has left an increase in fares, and obviuously, a drop in market share. But that traffic was very price sensitive, and many of it, might not come back to flying and probably go back to bus travelling.

Indeed, but overall passenger numbers have not decreased though, so I'm thinking we might see another tremendous growth when Viva starts operations. The airport infrastructure won't be able to handle this one though, the only large ones with some room for expansion are MDE and BAQ. Let's see what the government comes up with this time.
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 35):
but overall passenger numbers have not decreased though

I think the strong rainy season and the collapse of many roads led to a spike in air travel. Hopefully, Viva can keep most of those pax in the air instead of letting back to take the bus.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:11 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 34):
Aires leaving the LCC model has left an increase in fares, and obviously, a drop in market share. But that traffic was very price sensitive, and many of it, might not come back to flying and probably go back to bus travelling.

Domestic air travel is still growing, just not at the rate it did last year. Those passengers are still flying at very good prices, they will go back to buses when we see the numbers actually on the negative side. We shall now wait and see the effect of Viva on the domestic market, which should have a new growth probably on the double digit side again. Prices have marginally gone up this year and the market has not shrunk.
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:19 am

Quoting Bogota (Reply 37):
Domestic air travel is still growing, just not at the rate it did last year. Those passengers are still flying at very good prices, they will go back to buses when we see the numbers actually on the negative side.

It was reported in the last few days that June saw a decrease in domestic passenger numbers. The accrued totals for the year so far still are positive, but it would seem that June was an inflection point in domestic travel, with a not insignificant 8.1%.
International traffic grew by 5.1% in the same month.

http://www.rcnradio.com/noticias/cay...pasajeros-aereos-en-junio/10-08-11
 
bogota
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:44 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 38):
but it would seem that June was an inflection point in domestic travel,

Maybe you are right, but maybe the other factors also had to do with it. But anyhow the facts show that domestic travel has grown in general throughout the year even if June did see a decrease. Maybe the fares were not as attractive during the high season as they were last year, which stayed low throughout the whole year. Car sales have been in records numbers also, maybe people decided to travel in their new car during the holiday season, or maybe now they have turned into international travel. The truth is that the number in general of travellers multiplied last year and those same travellers are still there even if the fares rose a little bit.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 38):
It was reported in the last few days that June saw a decrease in domestic passenger numbers.

Indeed, see post 30. 4C and CM accounted for most of the decrease. 9N also saw a decrease in their numbers.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 37):
Domestic air travel is still growing, just not at the rate it did last year.

Not in June, and probably not for the rest of the year. Fares have been going higher and higher as CM has been slashing capacity and posing less of a threat to 4C and AV and 4C stopped offering their demential $1 peso sales around april. Also, the rains are over, so that will also put a strain or air travel.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 38):
with a not insignificant 8.1%.

And overall traffic shrunk 3,9%, something that hasn't been seen since the crisis in 99.
 
bogota
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:12 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 40):
And overall traffic shrunk 3,9%, something that hasn't been seen since the crisis in 99.

In June you may be right, but throughout the year traffic has grown 6,63%. This is like looking the half empty or half full glass, could it not just be that June last year was an all time high. Comparing it with the crisis of ´99 when the economy today is growing just because in one month it had less numbers than an all time record high with very special conditions the previous year, is not exactly fair in my opinion.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 40):
Fares have been going higher and higher as CM has been slashing capacity and posing less of a threat to 4C and AV and 4C stopped offering their demential $1 peso sales around april. Also, the rains are over, so that will also put a strain or air travel.

The "demential" 1 pesos fares added up to around 100 to 120 thousand pesos single journey after all taxes were added on a flight to Medellin to put an example. Today you can book for 140-150 thousand single journey on that same trip, so not much difference in my opinion. The big difference between this June and last June was that those fares were widely available throughout the Holiday Season, while this year less seats in those fares were available, hence the obvious decline. Lets hope we don´t get to see the "demetial" 500 thousand pesos round trip journey to Medellin or 900 thousand pesos round trip journey to Cartagena that some people seem to miss so much.

[Edited 2011-08-17 13:14:50]
 
Summa767
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:00 pm

There are different factors, but the sharp decrease in domestc traffic in June is undeniable.

The truth is that growth has been less and less as the year has progressed, and June saw the first month going negative.
I don't imagine that July will be very different. Of course, the high season may skew the figures, but I suspect that the domestic decline will continue -even if not as sharply- or flatlining at best.

Apart from more stable fares, and as RCS767AV has pointed out, Copa is reducing domestic capacity significantly and Aires has cancelled some regional routes, with more are likely to come.

I guess that by next year we will see some more capacity by AV and LAN. Avianca is increasing capacity on flights from MDE to CLO, CTG, BAQ and SMR on 20th September by swapping F50s for A318s as a way of vaccinating themselves against Viva Colombia who Intends to set shop in MDE. We also hear that LAN will incorporate A320s - though 737s will leave at some point-

I have not heard a single person say that they want higher fares. On the contrary, I sense expectation about Viva Colombia starting operations. After all, air transport is fundamental in Colombia, and has lasting potential if unlocked properly.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting Bogota (Reply 41):
The "demential" 1 pesos fares added up to around 100 to 120 thousand pesos single journey after all taxes were added on a flight to Medellin to put an example. Today you can book for 140-150 thousand single journey on that same trip, so not much difference in my opinion. The big difference between this June and last June was that those fares were widely available throughout the Holiday Season, while this year less seats in those fares were available, hence the obvious decline. Lets hope we don´t get to see the "demetial" 500 thousand pesos round trip journey to Medellin or 900 thousand pesos round trip journey to Cartagena that some people seem to miss so much.

Less seats at low prices means higher average fares, even tough they might still exist, they are scarce. I would love to see a 140 thousand ticket that easily as you say, in fact I have been looking to book flights to MZL at the start of december and nothing is coming under 200. I have never said I miss 900 thousand peso fares, nor anyone has said so, so let's not deviate the general idea here. 1 thousand peso fares just didn't work, and won't work because of the costs involved with flying in the country. But it is possible to offer lower fares and it has been demonstrated that by following an organized scheme you can make money on them, as AV did. Let's hope Viva is successful at it too, a third player is needed (CM's domestic operation is turning into a joke).

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 42):

I have not heard a single person say that they want higher fares. On the contrary, I sense expectation about Viva Colombia starting operations. After all, air transport is fundamental in Colombia, and has lasting potential if unlocked properly.

Exactly. Everyone is annoyed enough with not finding decent fares 4 months in advance already.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 42):
I guess that by next year we will see some more capacity by AV and LAN.

Most probably, but they will have to keep the fares at current levels and do some fare sales if they want to increase volume. It is a shame that CM couldn't fit their business model to the new rules of the market (their E190s were perfect when they came in as they slashed capacity and fuel costs when they had terrible load factors, but once there is a fare war, CASM is all that matters).

When is the new MDE A318 base going to get confirmed? September 20 seems very close. Also, apart from launching FLA, I would expect a lot of extra regional flying coming into BOG with the spare F50 capacity (possible extra freqs to AXM, MZL, NVA, EJA, PSO, PPN, maybe launching a new station apart from FLA).
 
bogota
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 42):
There are different factors, but the sharp decrease in domestc traffic in June is undeniable.

Absolutely undeniable, but if you put into account the huge increase last year and the fares available then, the decrease looks like a stabilization of the market after it grew so much. Abnormal peak months a never taken into account in sales figures as a trend, regardless if they are on the positive or negative side.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 42):
I suspect that the domestic decline will continue -even if not as sharply- or flatlining at best.

I would not doubt that would be your opinion, lets wait and see.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 42):
Apart from more stable fares, and as RCS767AV has pointed out, Copa is reducing domestic capacity significantly and Aires has cancelled some regional routes, with more are likely to come.

I have said it for years, COPA were going to be on loosing side of the market once fares became reasonable, they simply accommodated their seat offer to the existing market then and continued to milk the market at huge prices. Now that they had to compete on competitive fares they know they can´t outside their PTY hub.
Aires on the other side has cancelled some regional routes as they plan to concentrate on the larger routes for the time being as the operation transfers to LAN. The first 3 Airbus are soon to arrive and new announcements will be made.
Avianca will also continue to increase capacity on the domestic front and yes with an important concentration in MDE prior to the arrival of VIVA who will set shop in MDE (a few guys from Ryanair are already living in Medellin) who will apparently also operate Airbus fleet (not 100% sure but the amount of Airbus flying in Colombia is a big factor for them to decide for those).

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 42):
I have not heard a single person say that they want higher fares.

On the contrary I feel some people around forums are more interested in complaining about the absurd cheap fares than about the absurd expensive ones that Avianca and Copa had us used to before the arrival of Aires "demential" fares. The fares now are on average at 40% of what they used to be and numbers show that regardless of the June decrease, the general increase of 2011 and 2010 vs 2009 is huge.
 
Summa767
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 43):
When is the new MDE A318 base going to get confirmed? September 20 seems very close

Already loaded from Sep 20th for 10 days on most of the flights mentioned, and some details missing, but I guess that this coming weekend the programming on systems should be ironed out.
So frequencies to CTG, BAQ and SMR from MDE look like staying unchanged at 3, 2 and 1 respectively, all on A318.

Looks like CLO-MDE will still see F50s on 2 of the 4 dailies. Perhaps CLO based? These are important for Tumaco and Pasto from there.

We'll have to see where more F50 freqs spring up.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 44):
On the contrary I feel some people around forums are more interested in complaining about the absurd cheap fares than about the absurd expensive ones that Avianca and Copa had us used to before the arrival of Aires "demential" fares.

Aires certainly did some good in bringing needed capacity to the market, but the way they expanded was clearly unsustainable, as shown by the new Lan management in their rationalisation of the model, slashing international routes, and concentrating on offering a more reliable service, but that even now has not managed to stem the money bleeding.
 
bogota
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 43):
I would love to see a 140 thousand ticket that easily as you say, in fact I have been looking to book flights to MZL at the start of december and nothing is coming under 200

Well maybe look again, just checked on Aires site 179 thousand for one sector and 128 thousand for the return sector both in early December. And that 128 thousand was about the same price as the famous 1 peso fare plus taxes, which we all know is just a marketing device. And we are talking December which is peak season.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 43):
Everyone is annoyed enough with not finding decent fares 4 months in advance already.

Earlier you were complaining about the "demential" 1 peso fares which sold at around 100-120 thousand pesos taxes included, now you are saying you are annoyed by not finding decent fares 4 months in advance at 200 thousand pesos for a peak season. I just do not understand.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 45):
Aires certainly did some good in bringing needed capacity to the market, but the way they expanded was clearly unsustainable

It would have been totally sustainable if the owners would have kept their investment plan according to the original plans, large investments only return proffit after a four or five year business plan, but the sound of LAN in the market and the strength of Avianca in the Aerocivil was a big burden in a saturated BOG airport, at the end it was the San Andres flight that really scared them off and we all know what happened next. Its great to see Viva in the market and probably very wise to see them away from BOG as they can establish themselves with a less saturated airport.
 
777jaah
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 43):
in fact I have been looking to book flights to MZL at the start of december and nothing is coming under 200.

What bothers me, is buying flights to BAQ for around 600.000 pesos, as a ECONO fare. And that was 2 weeks ago in AV. And trust me, one like FLEXI went almost triple that.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 46):
at the end it was the San Andres flight that really scared them off and we all know what happened next

Trust me on this one, LAN had offered Aires almost 3 times the amount they finally paid for the company, only a few months before the accident. The original owners wanted to sell, but got greedy on the price and thought that the chileans would pay whatever they asked for. Then Aeroasis came in the picture, and talks cooled down. After the accident, Aires owners went nuts and contacted LAN, but this time, the offer was a third of the original one. I'm sure LAN people knew what they were all doing, and Aires management always had hopes to sell the company, but the accident really changed things.....

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 43):
Avianca is increasing capacity on flights from MDE to CLO, CTG, BAQ and SMR on 20th September by swapping F50s for A318s as a way of vaccinating themselves against Viva Colombia who Intends to set shop in MDE

Perfect example on how competition can improve conditions for customers. I know many people at my office in MDE that needs to travel quite often to BAQ that will be very happy with this change.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
bogota
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Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 47):
What bothers me, is buying flights to BAQ for around 600.000 pesos, as a ECONO fare. And that was 2 weeks ago in AV. And trust me, one like FLEXI went almost triple that.

Really not sure when you were searching for, just searched in Avianca and return to Barranquilla is between 300,000 and 350,000 depending on the date, a little bit cheaper on Aires.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 47):
Trust me on this one,

Difficult to trust you on this one, I know the story personally, or lets say family wise.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
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RE: Colombian Aviation #6

Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:05 am

Quoting Bogota (Reply 46):
Well maybe look again, just checked on Aires site 179 thousand for one sector and 128 thousand for the return sector both in early December. And that 128 thousand was about the same price as the famous 1 peso fare plus taxes, which we all know is just a marketing device. And we are talking December which is peak season.

I'm talking about roundtrip fares. And the 1 peso fares led to 120000 fares roundtrip, not one-way but whatever. A 250000 peso ticket to the Coffee Axis is no bargain (it's not a ripoff either but you get my point), especially at the start of december which is no peak season, which starts around the third week of the month, and buying it almost 5 months in advance.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 46):
Earlier you were complaining about the "demential" 1 peso fares which sold at around 100-120 thousand pesos taxes included, now you are saying you are annoyed by not finding decent fares 4 months in advance at 200 thousand pesos for a peak season. I just do not understand.

What don't you understand? Fares could be cheaper, just not the unviable 1 peso offers that AIRES did all the time just to put bums on the planes. One thing is to have a 1 peso sale a couple of times a year and the other is having it twice a month, with low load factors. That is ultimately toxic for the company which offers them, it makes it go broke and the market goes back to ripping off the customers, creating an effective viciuos circle.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 46):
It would have been totally sustainable if the owners would have kept their investment plan according to the original plans, large investments only return proffit after a four or five year business plan, but the sound of LAN in the market and the strength of Avianca in the Aerocivil was a big burden in a saturated BOG airport, at the end it was the San Andres flight that really scared them off and we all know what happened next. Its great to see Viva in the market and probably very wise to see them away from BOG as they can establish themselves with a less saturated airport.

And the fact that their operation and customer service were a mess also gave them a bad public image, they were loosing huge amounts of money (even under LAN the airline is still a fortune pit) and their load factors were crap all on trash yields. Those were probably some of the main factors the airline wasn'st viable, not blaming congested BOG for their out of this world delays caused by overexpanding or Avianca's strength at Aerocivil for their lack of management. Investors also looked away because of that. What LAN bought and effectively paid for was the carcass of an airline which had a few weeks of operation left as so to have good slots at BOG and trained personnel.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 48):
Difficult to trust you on this one, I know the story personally, or lets say family wise.

The more reason you are probably biased in your opinions on AIRES and everyone else's view of the other airlines.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 47):
What bothers me, is buying flights to BAQ for around 600.000 pesos, as a ECONO fare. And that was 2 weeks ago in AV. And trust me, one like FLEXI went almost triple that.

That's a lot, unless it was a last minute purchase. If it wasn't, that's where I say that a strong third player is needed. Go Viva.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 45):
So frequencies to CTG, BAQ and SMR from MDE look like staying unchanged at 3, 2 and 1 respectively, all on A318.

That's great. Now I wonder what they're going to do with those 1-2 less A318s at BOG...another ex-MX bird probably? I know there's another A320 ready for delivery at TLS.