commavia
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AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:14 pm

SEC Form 10 filing to be submitted today. Details include:

* Eagle generated $1.2B in 2010 revenue, including $250M from ground handling
* Eagle would operate 281 aircraft for AMR under a 9-year capacity purchase agreement
* AMR would competitively re-bid up to 12 prop aircraft beginning in 2012, and up to 40 jets beginning in 2014
* Agreement provides for rate re-set after four years to account for any market changes
* Under an additional 8-year agreement, Eagle would provide ground handling for AMR at 106 airports
* AMR would have the right to competitively re-bid a specified number of ground handled stations each year
* All of Eagle's jets (and the associated debt) would pass to AMR ownership before the spin-off
* Spin-off does not require AMR shareholder approval
 
Jamake1
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:22 pm

I wonder how AA Eagle employees feel about this...
United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
 
commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:27 pm

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 1):
I wonder how AA Eagle employees feel about this...

It's hardly a surprise to anyone - everyone I know at AA and Eagle has been fully aware of this and seen it coming for months. In internal employee communications, AA/Eagle have been referring to the separation of Eagle from AMR alternatively as "if" and "when" for months. I don't think many people - either within or outside Eagle - are all that optimistic that the company will be able to survive long-term as an independent entity. I think best-case scenario for Eagle would be to follow the path of ExpressJet - and get bought up by a larger grouping within a few years.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
All of Eagle's jets (and the associated debt) would pass to AMR ownership before the spin-off

Looks to me like Eagle might be worse off than Expressjet here. No planes of their own means that AMR can play they like a fiddle.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:46 pm

For those interested in some "light" reading, the full Form 10 SEC registration is available here.

Some very interesting reading in there about all the details of Eagle's business, the spin-off, and Eagle's relationship with AA/AMR both today and after the separation.

Just a few things I've seen scanning through:

* Looks like Eagle intends to make their ground-handling business a big component of their business model post-spin-off
* AMR will, indeed, retain ownership over the "American Eagle" brand and will grant the spun off company the right to use them as long as the air service agreement is in place (I remember some lively A.net discussion on this months ago)
* Eagle will continue to operate substantially all of its maintenance facilities (some of which are bigger than I thought), and also lease hangar space in places like LGA, etc. from AA, and continue to lease headquarters space (CP5/4th floor, I assume) from AMR
* AA apparently can immediately terminate it's ground handling contracts with Eagle at 2 hub and 10 non-hub airports

[Edited 2011-08-11 05:58:20]
 
norcal
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:54 pm

There really aren't that many options out there for AMR to diversify its Eagle feed. APA scope prohibits any carrier (except Eagle) for operating 70 seaters for American or for another carrier. I have no idea how they plan on diversifying the ATR flying unless they are bringing in someone to do ATR-42s. Only Eagle can fly ATR-72s under current APA scope.

That scope situation started the whole RAH thing because Republic was forced to pay millions of dollars to APA when they put E-170s on the Chautauqua certificate. Even though those were flying for United it was still a violation of American's scope. RAH had to create Shuttle America in order to get around that issue, and this is currently the reason why Chautauqua is all 50 seat aircraft.

That pretty much leaves AMR with the following carriers to choose from:
1. Chautauqua
2. TSA
3. Commutair
4. Air Wisconsin
5. Great Lakes
6. Gulf Stream International

Every other carrier already has 70 seaters or will soon have them on their certificates (ASA/XJT are merging). Out of that group only 2 currently operate ERJs. Of course someone could start a new certificate and put ERJs on it but that's expensive. Furthermore Eagle's "high costs" have nothing to do with its contract and everything to do with the age of its work force. That longevity issue is quickly disappearing as the senior guys continue to flow to American. 240 of the most senior are going soon followed by 824 as early as next year.

Who would fly these aircraft anyways? There is a huge shortage of pilots at regionals right now. Staffing is tight and flights are getting cancelled every day due to a lack of crews. Once Age 65 retirements start, FTDT rules go into effect, and the ATP regionals are going to really struggle to staff their fleets. Come 2014 it might be a tall order for another regional to bring on 40 jets and staff them.

Finally other regional carriers are getting much better contracts now. The contract that the Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan guys signed is far better than Eagle. Point is, once Eagle gets junior I doubt they'll have problems coming in cheaper than other regionals.

Of course APA could relax that provision of their scope, but why would they? What would AMR have to give up to make that a reality? Would it be worth it?
 
Newark727
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
* AMR would competitively re-bid up to 12 prop aircraft beginning in 2012, and up to 40 jets beginning in 2014

For the uninitiated, what exactly does this mean? That certain routes currently operated by Eagle would be up for bid to be operated by another regional carrier?
 
Goldenshield
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:58 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 5):
RAH had to create Shuttle America in order to get around that issue, and this is currently the reason why Chautauqua is all 50 seat aircraft.

Not to nit-pick, but Shuttle America was not "created" by RAH. It was a stand-alone airline that did okay for a few years, and was faltering when they were bought.
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commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 6):
For the uninitiated, what exactly does this mean? That certain routes currently operated by Eagle would be up for bid to be operated by another regional carrier?

Essentially, at predetermined periods, AMR has off-ramps where they can open for competition the capacity currently provided to AMR by Eagle equivalent to X amount of Y aircraft. So, for example, beginning in 2012, AMR can apparently open-up for re-bid the equivalent of 12 ATR-72s worth of aircraft. That means that AMR can send out an RFP to any and all interested parties to bid on the flying of 12 70-seat turboprops. If, at that time, Eagle's bid is deemed the lowest and/or most competitive/attractive, AMR can keep that flying with Eagle, or, alternatively, they could, say, shift that flying to another operator.
 
Newark727
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:03 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):

Essentially, at predetermined periods, AMR has off-ramps where they can open for competition the capacity currently provided to AMR by Eagle equivalent to X amount of Y aircraft. So, for example, beginning in 2012, AMR can apparently open-up for re-bid the equivalent of 12 ATR-72s worth of aircraft. That means that AMR can send out an RFP to any and all interested parties to bid on the flying of 12 70-seat turboprops. If, at that time, Eagle's bid is deemed the lowest and/or most competitive/attractive, AMR can keep that flying with Eagle, or, alternatively, they could, say, shift that flying to another operator.

I see, thank you.
 
norcal
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:13 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
So, for example, beginning in 2012, AMR can apparently open-up for re-bid the equivalent of 12 ATR-72s worth of aircraft. That means that AMR can send out an RFP to any and all interested parties to bid on the flying of 12 70-seat turboprops. If, at that time, Eagle's bid is deemed the lowest and/or most competitive/attractive, AMR can keep that flying with Eagle, or, alternatively, they could, say, shift that flying to another operator.

Actually they can't do this. Aircraft as large as ATR-72s can only be flown by American Eagle or Executive:


"Scope Exception: Commuter Air Carriers

1. Commuter Air Carriers and Section 1 Limitations.

The Company or an Affiliate may create, acquire, maintain an equity position in, enter into franchise type agreements with, and/or codeshare with a Commuter Air Carrier, and flying by any such Commuter Air Carrier shall not be subject to the limitations of Section 1.C. above, so long as any such Commuter Air Carrier operates in accordance with the limitations set forth in this Section 1.D.

2. American Eagle, Inc. and Executive Airlines, Inc.

American Eagle, Inc. and Executive Airlines, Inc. may operate, in the aggregate, no more than 43 ATR 72 aircraft or other turbo prop aircraft certificated in the United States and Europe for a maximum passenger capacity of between 51 and 70 seats, without losing their status as Commuter Air Carriers."



Definition of Commuter Air Carrier:

4. Commuter Air Carrier

The term "Commuter Air Carrier" refers to any Air Carrier utilizing only (a) aircraft that are certificated in the United States and Europe with a maximum passenger capacity of 50 passenger seats or fewer and (b) aircraft that are not certificated in any country with a maximum gross takeoff weight of more than 64,500 pounds. If an aircraft type operated by an Air Carrier otherwise meeting the conditions in the preceding sentence is recertified with a maximum passenger capacity of greater than 50 passenger seats, the Air Carrier operating said aircraft shall remain a Commuter Air Carrier so long as it operates said aircraft with no more than 50 passenger seats.



Only Eagle and Executive are allowed to fly aircraft greater than 70 seats for American.
 
commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 10):
Only Eagle and Executive are allowed to fly aircraft greater than 70 seats for American.

Well than AMR obviously knows something you don't about how the negotiations with the APA are going.  
 
norcal
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
Well than AMR obviously knows something you don't about how the negotiations with the APA are going.

Could very well be, but I have to ask what AMR is going to give up to get APA to surrender that?

APA has pretty big leverage against AMR management with that clause. It limits current heavy weights like SkyWest Inc. and Pinnacle Inc. from entering the whipsaw game. Have to wonder what they are getting in return.
 
commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 12):
Could very well be, but I have to ask what AMR is going to give up to get APA to surrender that?

I continue to hold out (possibly unfounded) hope of a 'grand bargain' between AMR and the APA involving regional flying.

We'll see, I suppose.
 
ckfred
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 5):
There really aren't that many options out there for AMR to diversify its Eagle feed. APA scope prohibits any carrier (except Eagle) for operating 70 seaters for American or for another carrier. I have no idea how they plan on diversifying the ATR flying unless they are bringing in someone to do ATR-42s. Only Eagle can fly ATR-72s under current APA scope.

That scope situation started the whole RAH thing because Republic was forced to pay millions of dollars to APA when they put E-170s on the Chautauqua certificate. Even though those were flying for United it was still a violation of American's scope. RAH had to create Shuttle America in order to get around that issue, and this is currently the reason why Chautauqua is all 50 seat aircraft.

That pretty much leaves AMR with the following carriers to choose from:
1. Chautauqua
2. TSA
3. Commutair
4. Air Wisconsin
5. Great Lakes
6. Gulf Stream International

Every other carrier already has 70 seaters or will soon have them on their certificates (ASA/XJT are merging). Out of that group only 2 currently operate ERJs. Of course someone could start a new certificate and put ERJs on it but that's expensive. Furthermore Eagle's "high costs" have nothing to do with its contract and everything to do with the age of its work force. That longevity issue is quickly disappearing as the senior guys continue to flow to American. 240 of the most senior are going soon followed by 824 as early as next year.

Who would fly these aircraft anyways? There is a huge shortage of pilots at regionals right now. Staffing is tight and flights are getting cancelled every day due to a lack of crews. Once Age 65 retirements start, FTDT rules go into effect, and the ATP regionals are going to really struggle to staff their fleets. Come 2014 it might be a tall order for another regional to bring on 40 jets and staff them.

Finally other regional carriers are getting much better contracts now. The contract that the Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan guys signed is far better than Eagle. Point is, once Eagle gets junior I doubt they'll have problems coming in cheaper than other regionals.

Of course APA could relax that provision of their scope, but why would they? What would AMR have to give up to make that a reality? Would it be worth it?

What would AMR offer that could get APA to relas the Scope Clause? How about an order of 100-seat jets, to be flown by mainline? The smallest planes that Airbus and Boeing could potentially deliver to AA are around 125 to 130 seats.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 12):
APA has pretty big leverage against AMR management with that clause. It limits current heavy weights like SkyWest Inc. and Pinnacle Inc. from entering the whipsaw game. Have to wonder what they are getting in return.

If the APA decides to continue their current tack of very restrictive scope and pay rules (lets not forget they won't even let AMR buy 787's), then that "leverage" is going to mean squat during a bankruptcy or to the guy in the welfare line handing out their checks.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting commavia (Thread starter):
* All of Eagle's jets (and the associated debt) would pass to AMR ownership before the spin-off

So the new entity would just be a ground handling company? With no planes of their own, they are still being ruled by AA. This bites for Eagle.. but perhaps they could order some planes of their own (at least to start) for some at risk flights?

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
* AA apparently can immediately terminate it's ground handling contracts with Eagle at 2 hub and 10 non-hub airports

Hmm.. which 2 hubs (LAX and JFK?) and which non-hubs?

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Eagle will continue to operate substantially all of its maintenance facilities

Last question.. where are they located?
Aiming High and going far..
 
brilondon
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 1):
I wonder how AA Eagle employees feel about this...



I imagine on the surface it might seem like they may be getting nervous but does this not give the employees more job security due to the fact Eagle will be able to become a more competitive airline on its own? Would this also not be like the AC spin off of Jazz into a separate corporation? These are the questions I have and if any body wishes to explain the differences between Canadian law in this area and US law I would really appreciate it.
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commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
So the new entity would just be a ground handling company?

No - it would operate just like many of the regional operators flying for other network carriers - the big airline owns the planes, they lease them to the little airline to fly them.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
With no planes of their own, they are still being ruled by AA. This bites for Eagle

Hardly - this is a great deal for the new entity. They aren't saddled with all those increasingly-worthless RJs, nor with the associated capitalized ownership costs - all of that 'burden' will stay with AMR.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
Last question.. where are they located?

According to the filing:

Following the spin-off, we will have the following significant dedicated facilities, which we will lease from third parties other than American:

• approximately 12,300 square foot maintenance hangar in Boston, Massachusetts;

• approximately 127,300 square foot maintenance hangar in Marquette, Michigan;

• approximately 23,000 square foot maintenance hangar in Springfield, Missouri;

• approximately 23,000 square foot maintenance hangar in San Juan, Puerto Rico;

• approximately 90,500 square foot maintenance hangar in Bentonville, Arkansas;

• approximately 77,700 square foot maintenance hangar in Columbus, Ohio;

• approximately 90,800 square foot maintenance hangar and an approximately 36,000 square foot office facility in Fort Worth, Texas; and

• approximately 232,400 square foot maintenance hangar in Abilene, Texas.

Following the spin-off, we will also lease from American additional maintenance hangar facilities located in New York, New York; Fort Worth, Texas; Los Angeles, California; Miami, Florida and Chicago, Illinois. Pursuant to the Transition Services Agreement, we will have the right to use approximately 40,000 square feet of office space, which will comprise our corporate headquarter facilities, located in Fort Worth, Texas.
 
william
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:59 pm

Actually good news for those tired of flying the older ATRs. The fact that prop flying will be up for bid so fast in 2012 says to me that AMR is wanting a different partner bringing in new aircraft on their own, and off the AMR books. AMR will just park the older ATRs in the desert. Maybe AMR is hoping whatever new carrier wins bring in some new Dash 8s, or newer ATRs .
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
According to the filing:

Thank you! My curiosity has been filled.
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norcal
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:08 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 15):
If the APA decides to continue their current tack of very restrictive scope and pay rules (lets not forget they won't even let AMR buy 787's), then that "leverage" is going to mean squat during a bankruptcy or to the guy in the welfare line handing out their checks.

Bankruptcy laws have changed, AMR can't just rewrite the scope section if the declare chapter 11. Further relaxing scope is a sure fire way to end up in the unemployment line for APA pilots. Case in point, United, they replaced their entire 737 fleet with E-170s and CRJ-700s and tossed 1400 pilots out on the street.

Is there a deal to be made? Absolutely, but don't expect to see anything larger than 70 seaters at Eagle or American Connection.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 14):
What would AMR offer that could get APA to relas the Scope Clause? How about an order of 100-seat jets, to be flown by mainline? The smallest planes that Airbus and Boeing could potentially deliver to AA are around 125 to 130 seats.

That could very well be the deal that gets it done, though I wouldn't expect to see any net growth at Eagle. Probably ERJs for CRJs on a 1:1 basis with 100 seaters going to AA.
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:09 pm

Too much noise about something IRRELEVANT since there are no buyers interested on American Eagle...anyway, customers will not even notice a change since there will be a long transition period to divest Eagle.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:17 pm

"Hardly - this is a great deal for the new entity. They aren't saddled with all those increasingly-worthless RJs, nor with the associated capitalized ownership costs - all of that 'burden' will stay with AMR."


What spin. Former Eagle pilot here and this is a bad day for Eagle.

The company is being spun off with a flimsy flying contract from AMR with numerous outs.

Here's the long story short:

AMR will be diversifying its regional flying in the next 5 years. Eagle (or whatever they will be called) will have to competer for a piece of this pie.

This is a position that this regional has never been in before . . . and it will be a HUGE adjustment.
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:23 pm

AA (APA) needs to be creative and find reasonable ways to relax its SCOPE clause, AA could easily fly many more markets w/smaller jets rather than relying on AE or even B6 codeshare to serve routes no longer profitable for "AA metal". SJU could easily become a focus city again; AA could fly some abandoned markets with smaller jets and make $. MIA also could have new routes too.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):

or AMR is putting the cart before the horse like they have done many, many times
787
77W
A320
737RE
DFW-China.

This, just like the 14 hour rule, is something the APA has no real reason why they should give it up unless AA wants to have its labor cost go up even more.


PS Doesn't the TWU scope also prevent large RJs at anyone other than MQ?

Quoting ckfred (Reply 14):

Hopefully the APA looks at how f'ed up Delta and United are and they and the new United hold the line. Then DPA starts kickin butt in 2012.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Alias1024
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:50 pm

Does it say what the official corporate name will be for the spun off carrier will be? With AMR retaining ownership of the American Eagle brand, I wonder if this is how they will get around the APA scope. Just apply the Eagle brand to all AMR regional flying.

If not, I don't see APA scope being a big issue anyway. As long as the cap on the number of aircraft over 50 seats remains the same, I don't see the motivation for APA to withhold signing off on a side letter to allow another regional to fly them.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 22):
Too much noise about something IRRELEVANT since there are no buyers interested on American Eagle

It is relevant, since this spin-off - not sale - is proceeding. AMR doesn't need to find a buyer to spin Eagle off to shareholders, nor do they need shareholder approval.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
What spin. Former Eagle pilot here and this is a bad day for Eagle.

The company is being spun off with a flimsy flying contract from AMR with numerous outs.

Oh absolutely - I don't think anyone realistically sees it any differently.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 23):
This is a position that this regional has never been in before . . . and it will be a HUGE adjustment.

Very true - Eagle has effectively had a monopoly or near-monopoly on AMR regional flying for over 20 years (since AMR bought up all the Eagle operators in the late 80s/early 90s). Eagle is entering a brave new world now where they are no longer going to get the no-bid, non-competitive regional capacity.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 26):
Does it say what the official corporate name will be for the spun off carrier will be? With AMR retaining ownership of the American Eagle brand, I wonder if this is how they will get around the APA scope. Just apply the Eagle brand to all AMR regional flying.

I do not believe the post-spin-off corporate name has been identified yet, but according to the filing, AMR will retain complete ownership over the American Eagle brand name.
 
brilondon
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 26):
Does it say what the official corporate name will be for the spun off carrier will be? With AMR retaining ownership of the American Eagle brand, I wonder if this is how they will get around the APA scope. Just apply the Eagle brand to all AMR regional flying.



What would be the point of selling and contracting American Eagle to fly the commuter flights and then use the American Eagle brand to fly the same routes and compete with the spin off. That just does not make sense unless there is a saving involved that way I just don't see.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
deltal1011man
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 24):

Why should they? No reason at all that AA can't fly 70+ seaters at the mainline level.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
I continue to hold out (possibly unfounded) hope of a 'grand bargain' between AMR and the APA involving regional flying.

That'd be nice.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 24):
AA (APA) needs to be creative and find reasonable ways to relax its SCOPE clause, AA could easily fly many more markets w/smaller jets rather than relying on AE or even B6 codeshare to serve routes no longer profitable for "AA metal". SJU could easily become a focus city again; AA could fly some abandoned markets with smaller jets and make $. MIA also could have new routes too.

If the 100 seaters were flown by someone other than mainline, the problem would be that instead of all those "new" flights, you'd see existing flights "downgraded" to the 100-seater. APA pilots would be out on the street, and that scenario simply won't happen. That's my take on it, anyways.

I'd love to see a 100-seater on the AA certificate flown by AA pilots, the 787 order firmed, a relaxed scope for 70 seat flying, etc. I'm not sure we'll see it, but it would be nice. I really want to see a healthy Big 3 - UA, DL, and AA.

-Dave
-Dave
 
MAH4546
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:36 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 5):
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 25):
or AMR is putting the cart before the horse like they have done many, many times

None of those are putting the cart before the horse.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 25):
This, just like the 14 hour rule, is something the APA has no real reason why they should give it up unless AA wants to have its labor cost go up even more.

APA is having no problem with DFWHKG.
a.
 
skyrat
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 1):
I wonder how AA Eagle employees feel about this...

I bet they feel quite a bit nervous. I know I would! But that's not a good question to ask on this board. I find most people that post on here could really careless about the employees of the airlines, just love them pretty shinny planes! Then you have the American public that could care less, as all they care about is their $100 plane ticket to Florida.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting skyrat (Reply 32):
But that's not a good question to ask on this board. I find most people that post on here could really careless about the employees of the airlines,

While I think there is some truth in that, it's pretty much that way anywhere other than an employee blogsite. I mean, I coudl think about any job I've ever had and after pondering it, I would come to the same conclusion - no one really cared about "me" as the employee. That's life.

I think most people on a.net "care" about people, but are disspassionate about it as an outsider. We tend to relate to it from a "running the business" or "seeing the aircraft" perspective, rather than a "pushing a cart" or "fixing a plane" perspective. Again, that's just the nature of the board and people's interest levels.

I also, in a small way, think that it's just the way the industry has gone. It's sad for the employees, but it's no different in many ways than many, many other jobs/industries out there.

-Dave
-Dave
 
deltal1011man
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:44 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
None of those are putting the cart before the horse.

er....yea it is. The way things are going with APA/APFA/TWU contract talks AA may end up with pretty 777-300ERs and no crew to fly them. (think Delta 777 version 2)

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
APA is having no problem with DFWHKG.

I would have thought you would have gotten out of the route *rumor* business after your epic fail last year.
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blink182
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:53 pm

I'm a little confused here--
If AMR owns the airplanes and the trademark "American Eagle," is MQ nothing more than a group of employees?   

Thanks for clearing this up.
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commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:11 pm

Quoting blink182 (Reply 35):
I'm a little confused here--
If AMR owns the airplanes and the trademark "American Eagle," is MQ nothing more than a group of employees?

Thanks for clearing this up.

Operationally, the new company will operate just like any airline that leases its aircraft - which is to say, for example, just like AA, which within a few years will be leasing the vast majority of its fleet. The only difference here versus, say, AA, will be that the 'new Eagle' will be leasing its aircraft from AMR, rather than from a pure leasing company like ILFC or GECAS. But, again, this is hardly unique - this is precisely how the regional operations are structured at several other U.S. network carriers.

In terms of the branding, this is just standard operating procedure. The network carrier always owns the brand - 'American' will always belong to 'American,' 'Delta' will always belong to 'Delta,' etc. The network carrier just licenses the brand name to the regional operator to use - thus we have American Eagle, Delta Connection, etc. Again - this is hardly unique - this is how every other network airline structures the branding of its regional flying.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 34):
I would have thought you would have gotten out of the route *rumor* business after your epic fail last year.

There was no "epic fail." It is not very surprising that AA/IAG decided to put aggressive European expansion on hold in this economy and instead elected to bulk up on existing routes. DFWHKG is looking increasingly likely, as is LAXPEK. If LAXPEK is happening, it should be announced around October with LAXMCI, LAXCOS and a few others. DFWHKG, if it goes ahead, I expect the announcement would be paired with the new long-haul product announcement, probably late winter 2012.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 34):
er....yea it is. The way things are going with APA/APFA/TWU contract talks AA may end up with pretty 777-300ERs and no crew to fly them. (think Delta 777 version 2)

Things are going amazingly well in the past few months, and both sides are now expecting a deal to be reached in a matter of months. You really think AA pilots are going to stop AA from expanding it's long haul fleet, which means more jobs and money for them? Keep dreaming.

[Edited 2011-08-11 13:41:36]

[Edited 2011-08-11 13:43:17]
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bearste
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37):
Things are going amazingly well in the past few months, and both sides are now expecting a deal to be reached in a matter of months. You really think AA pilots are going to stop AA from expanding it's long haul fleet, which means more jobs and money for them? Keep dreaming.

I re-joined the site just because of this one statement right here. You are kidding, right? I'm a pilot in the DFW area (hint, hint...) and you are so far off base regarding the negotiations and intent that it is categorized as really blatant misinformation. Amazingly well? Really?? What conference room are you in? More jobs? Money? Don't know what planet you get your information from, but it's not this one.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting bearste (Reply 38):
Things are going amazingly well in the past few months, and both sides are now expecting a deal to be reached in a matter of months. You really think AA pilots are going to stop AA from expanding it's long haul fleet, which means more jobs and money for them? Keep dreaming.

I re-joined the site just because of this one statement right here. You are kidding, right? I'm a pilot in the DFW area (hint, hint...) and you are so far off base regarding the negotiations and intent that it is categorized as really blatant misinformation. Amazingly well? Really?? What conference room are you in? More jobs? Money? Don't know what planet you get your information from, but it's not this one.

I'm not kidding whatsoever. All indications are that negotiations have been going well this summer, even as discussed on other online, employee-oriented forums. Looks like unions are finally waking up and finding a clue.

[Edited 2011-08-11 14:44:23]
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting bearste (Reply 38):
Amazingly well? Really??

From my perspective, if they are talking at all, things are going "amazingly well". Really.

-Dave
-Dave
 
MAH4546
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:58 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 40):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 40):
Quoting bearste (Reply 38):
Amazingly well? Really??

From my perspective, if they are talking at all, things are going "amazingly well". Really.

Seriously. It's hard to find a union in this country as uncooperative and unreasonable as the AA pilots, except maybe US Airways.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:27 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37):
If LAXPEK is happening, it should be announced around October with LAXMCI, LAXCOS and a few others

LAX-COS would be a blessing. I fly this route and UA takes full advantage of its monopoly on the route! Lets hope that they decide to do this! Is it me or is the AA Eagle building getting pretty crowded at LAX? How much more room do they have to add more?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:42 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 42):
LAX-COS would be a blessing. I fly this route and UA takes full advantage of its monopoly on the route! Lets hope that they decide to do this! Is it me or is the AA Eagle building getting pretty crowded at LAX? How much more room do they have to add more?

It is getting crowed, but the room is there for more flying. But the real determinate on expanding LAX flying again next spring is making LAX a CR7 base, which is rumored to happen. Although now with the spin off confirmed, I wonder how it will affect new proposed flying.
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F9Animal
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:01 am

Could this raise a red flag for customer service and ramp workers at AA? If Eagle is used as a major ground handling outfit, then Eagle could easily take over a ton of AA mainline stations. Thoughts?
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TUSAA
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:10 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
Could this raise a red flag for customer service and ramp workers at AA? If Eagle is used as a major ground handling outfit, then Eagle could easily take over a ton of AA mainline stations. Thoughts?

Exactly. One reason why the TWU represented ramp workers at AA have broken off talks with the company on a new contract. The TWU isn't going to agree to massive job losses. So, talks are not going as great as some on here claim.
 
F9Animal
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 45):
Exactly. One reason why the TWU represented ramp workers at AA have broken off talks with the company on a new contract. The TWU isn't going to agree to massive job losses. So, talks are not going as great as some on here claim.

Oh man, please tell me this is not happening.   I should have known that there were sinister deals in the making.  

I understand the need to save money at AA, but why do airlines ALWAYS take direct aim at the employees? It is not the employees that are bringing down any airline. It is poor management, and lack of direction. It really saddens me.
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Alias1024
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 28):

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 26):
Does it say what the official corporate name will be for the spun off carrier will be? With AMR retaining ownership of the American Eagle brand, I wonder if this is how they will get around the APA scope. Just apply the Eagle brand to all AMR regional flying.



What would be the point of selling and contracting American Eagle to fly the commuter flights and then use the American Eagle brand to fly the same routes and compete with the spin off. That just does not make sense unless there is a saving involved that way I just don't see

The point would be to save money by putting the flying out for competitive bidding in a few years. Either the spun-off entity will win that bid, or another airline will come along with a lower bid. Since AMR retains the rights to the American Eagle name, they can let any regional partner call their flights American Eagle, and it might even allow them to put the 70 seat flying out for bid, instead of just the 50 seat and less flying.
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commavia
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:48 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 46):
I understand the need to save money at AA, but why do airlines ALWAYS take direct aim at the employees?

Because people cost money! I'm not saying that to be cruel or crude - it's just reality - in any business, or indeed any organization (exhibit A: the U.S. government, exhibit B: the western world's entitlement systems collapsing in on themselves like dying stars). It may seem harsh - but it's just reality: people cost money - pure and simple - and thus it's just logical that businesses will seek to minimize that expense (usually one of the largest for any airline, for example) just like any other expense.

Not to mention - a large part of the reason why AMR - specifically - is seeking to contain labor costs is because they are competing with airlines that either have no unions and/or have used bankruptcy to extract substantial cost reductions from labor - from outsourcing flying to regional operators, outsourcing ground handling, outsourcing maintenance, laying off workers, etc. It's the classic example of moral hazard - if AA's competitors have done these things, how is AA expected not to?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 46):
It is not the employees that are bringing down any airline. It is poor management, and lack of direction.

Few things in life are that simple.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: AMR Details Eagle Spin-Off

Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 46):
It is not the employees that are bringing down any airline. It is poor management, and lack of direction.

Well, technically poor management and lack of direction would be the fault of employees. Now maybe not the employees you are referring to, but still employees.