col
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Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:08 am

With the success of the neo and plans to make 60 units per month, the present assembly plants in France, Germany and China will be maxed out at around 45-46 from memory.

The options I guess would be to expand any of the existing three plants or open a 4th plant elsewhere. Talk has been said of USA plant, which was originally planned for the tankers. The problem with the USA is that Airbus are still deemed to be the bad competition to Boeing who are highly regarded by the Government etc. This is a pity, as getting Airbus to assemble in USA would be a major coup for, and may actually help Boeing. Other than Alabama the support could be zip.

Another option would be to assemble in UK, a country with the know how to carry out assembly easily. There must be a number of sites capable of assembling 320's very easily.

Spreading the assembly plants seems like a smart idea, unions, holiday, competition between the sites = less exposure to negative production affects.

Any thoughts?
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:20 am

Had always assumed that this would be at the tanker plant in the US but uk assembly sounds like a plan the government would be very keen to help out and airbus already had several plants where it could be located.
 
stevenmeyer2005
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:37 am

Opening up new plants or expanding older plants would definitely be a great benefit to Airbus, however in my eyes I see a problem with part deliveries from their suppliers. The suppliers are already under pressure to keep up with the units being assembled right now.

Another factor would be that Airbus has 5 belugas right now, if they expand a plant or open a new plant I would assume that they would need a couple more belugas to transport parts since the 5 belugas now are being used daily already to transport parts between Spain, France, UK and Germany. Keep in mind that the belugas now do not only transfer A32X parts.


stevenmeyer2005
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zeke
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:45 am

Quoting col (Thread starter):

The options I guess would be to expand any of the existing three plants or open a 4th plant elsewhere. Talk has been said of USA plant, which was originally planned for the tankers.

I think that is still a good idea. At the moment, a lot of the components for Airbus aircraft come from the USA by surface, Airbus could add to their sealift capability to take assemblies from the USA one way, and in the other direct take A320 fuselages and wings in the other direction.

Quoting col (Thread starter):

Another option would be to assemble in UK, a country with the know how to carry out assembly easily. There must be a number of sites capable of assembling 320's very easily.

With the closure of a number of UK DoD bases in recent times, a number of them have fairly good sea access, it has all the ingredients of making another assembly line, sea access for parts in, and an airfield to launch the completed airframes.

Quoting col (Thread starter):

Spreading the assembly plants seems like a smart idea, unions, holiday, competition between the sites = less exposure to negative production affects.

I would not rule out something in DXB either, it would be the sort if industry they would try like to attract, good sea and air access, lots of open space. They do not allow unions, and an attractive tax base.

Quoting stevenmeyer2005 (Reply 2):
Opening up new plants or expanding older plants would definitely be a great benefit to Airbus, however in my eyes I see a problem with part deliveries from their suppliers. The suppliers are already under pressure to keep up with the units being assembled right now.

The FAL in China is all done by ship, I would think any further development would include more surface transport.
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breiz
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:55 am

As all you know, Airbus vented recently, by alleged mistake, the thoughts around a Super-Beluga in the guise of a modified A330.
I do not believe that a company of Airbus' stature would make such an innocent "mistake".
I see it as a tool to negotiate further assembly plants development. Either towards the European countries (you see we have the capability to fly parts to Mobile), or to boost the shelved Mobile solution.
Alternatively, I am just dreaming.
 
stevenmeyer2005
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:05 am

Quoting breiz (Reply 4):
As all you know, Airbus vented recently, by alleged mistake, the thoughts around a Super-Beluga in the guise of a modified A330.

The only benefit of an A330 beluga is that it would be longer because the A330 fuselage is based upon the A300 fuselage. Well of course the added weight it could carry and range. A development of this aircraft would take years and Airbus has its hands full with the A32X neos and A350s.
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parapente
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:19 am

re above.I am not so sure.We are not talking about tomorrow those orders and timescales are alrasdy tied up.If the 3 existing assembly plants cannot be expanded then they may well need a fourth and where better than the US - even if I am a Brit.2011 may be the year of the NEO but 2012? Don't bet on it they have only just got started - why do you think Boeing wanted to build "new"?
 
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breiz
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:20 am

Quoting stevenmeyer2005 (Reply 5):
A development of this aircraft would take years and Airbus has its hands full with the A32X neos and A350s.


The development may not be that long. As pointed-out earlier by others, the communality between the A300 and the A330 would make structural modifications straightforward. Systems are another issue.
But I agreed of course that Airbus has already plenty to deal with.
 
Centre
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:36 am

Quoting stevenmeyer2005 (Reply 5):
e only benefit of an A330 beluga is that it would be longer because the A330 fuselage is based upon the A300 fuselage. Well of course the added weight it could carry and range. A development of this aircraft would take years and Airbus has its hands full with the A32X neos and A350s.

There might be no need for more Belugas or further developments to it:

According to Airbus Power8 plan, back in 2007:
http://www.atlantic-times.com/archive_detail.php?recordID=797

Quote:
The new A350 will be assembled in Toulouse and will also get its interior outfitting at the main Airbus site. This is a significant change to the previous practice where aircraft are flown to Hamburg empty for interior outfitting. To make the change more acceptable for the German side within Airbus, Hamburg will add a third final assembly line for the A320 narrow-body family.

Toulouse will keep its A320 line but it will be capped at 14 aircraft per month. Everything beyond 14 will be built in Hamburg. Gallois of course says that this is a commitment given by his predecessor Philippe Camus when the A380 was launched six years ago.

So, there is a high possibility of a 3rd FAL in Hamburg, for a total of 5 FAL between Hamburg, Toulouse, and China.

That's quite sufficient if suppliers can support it.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:58 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Had always assumed that this would be at the tanker plant in the US but uk assembly sounds like a plan the government would be very keen to help out and airbus already had several plants where it could be located.

MME sounds like a good place to have a FAL to me      

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col
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:03 pm

I am actually talking about a plant being available from 2016/2017.

Quoting zeke (Reply 3):
would not rule out something in DXB either, it would be the sort if industry they would try like to attract, good sea and air access, lots of open space. They do not allow unions, and an attractive tax base.

That would be better served as an A380 Assembly plant, then they could just roll them down the street.

Quoting breiz (Reply 4):
you see we have the capability to fly parts to Mobile

My concern with Mobile is that Airbus got shafted by the US Government on a couple of ocassions now. They certainly showed their feelings to an Airbus plant versus helping Boeing. Other than Alabama, there was not really any support from any other State. They do not look upon the plant as creating jobs for American's, but taking jobs from WA. It drove me crazy, when you look at the reality of getting another manufacturer to assemble their planes in US. We could have made Tankers for every Air Force on the planet, plus maybe 330 PAX and 350's.
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 3):
I would not rule out something in DXB either, it would be the sort if industry they would try like to attract, good sea and air access, lots of open space. They do not allow unions, and an attractive tax base.

AUH more likely than DXB (although still unlikely).
If I remember correctly EADS signed a deal with Mubadala a couple of years ago.
 
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robffm2
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:04 pm

What about Brazil?
Weren't Bombardier and Airbus already working together in the past?
 
something
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 8):
Quote:
The new A350 will be assembled in Toulouse and will also get its interior outfitting at the main Airbus site. This is a significant change to the previous practice where aircraft are flown to Hamburg empty for interior outfitting. To make the change more acceptable for the German side within Airbus, Hamburg will add a third final assembly line for the A320 narrow-body family.

Toulouse will keep its A320 line but it will be capped at 14 aircraft per month. Everything beyond 14 will be built in Hamburg. Gallois of course says that this is a commitment given by his predecessor Philippe Camus when the A380 was launched six years ago.

So, there is a high possibility of a 3rd FAL in Hamburg, for a total of 5 FAL between Hamburg, Toulouse, and China.

You are a very attentive observer. There will be no other additional plant in the foreseeable future.
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par13del
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting col (Thread starter):
The problem with the USA is that Airbus are still deemed to be the bad competition to Boeing who are highly regarded by the Government etc.

The US government purchases hugh numbers of military items from foreign suppliers from a/c to missiles, to vehicles.

Quoting col (Reply 10):
My concern with Mobile is that Airbus got shafted by the US Government on a couple of ocassions now. They certainly showed their feelings to an Airbus plant versus helping Boeing.

Presently US Airways is listed as the largest single Airbus a/c operator in the world with around 232 a/c, that is a single carrier, when you add in UA, DL, B6, F9 and others the USA as a country is probably largest operator of Airbus a/c, and that has been accomplished without interference from Boeing, a FAL in the USA or any assistance by the US Government.
AA has now placed an order and the US government was nowhere to be seen or heard on anything related to the order, so why do you believe that the free market in the US as it relates to Airbus is somehow preventing them from penetrating a market which they presently have a large share or that they need a FAL to maintain their position or solicit orders?
 
r2rho
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting something (Reply 13):
There will be no other additional plant in the foreseeable future.

There is no immediate need for a new FAL The ramp up will take time. But I do see a need for it in a few years, if they go to rate 60. Which means they'll have to start thinking about sites soon.

TSN, while small, was built inspired on the XFW site, and has room for expansion. I could see that site growing and taking over some of the Asian market (and not just Chinese) in the mid-term. I don't think Airbus had a long-term goal of just 4 aircraft per month in mind when they set up shop there.

BFM is a major candidate, IMO. Airbus has long wanted to establish a larger presence in the US, it didn't work out with the tankers, so why not give it a try with the NEO?

Also, there is SVQ. It would be an unexpected move, but the A400M is assembled there, it is already integrated into the Airbus logistics network, and it wouldn't be too hard to build an A320 FAL there.

Quoting zeke (Reply 3):
The FAL in China is all done by ship, I would think any further development would include more surface transport.

Correct, and the A380 is also done by ship. Ship transport seems to be the future trend within Airbus, as much as we all love the Beluga. It is not a coincidence that a lot of their sites are at or near port facilities. I wouldn't rule out the A330-Beluga some day, but the bulk will be done by ship, IMO. That should help to narrow down the choices  
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
Airbus has long wanted to establish a larger presence in the US, it didn't work out with the tankers, so why not give it a try with the NEO?

If they really wanted a FAL in the US they did not and do not need the tanker or the NEO product to do so, the number of customers and a/c deployed in the US are large enough to justify a FAL on just replacements, Airbus is no different than the Japanese or Korean auto companies, if they want to build a FAL, the states would step up with property, tax breaks and incentives to get the job done. None of the foreign factories presently in the US was set up with the aid of the Federal government, the states in the US have taxing power on their own.
Take the A321NEO for example, the extra range and payload are mostly beneficial to the US transcon market than anywhere else in the world, the A321-100 was and is still fine for most other markets. The numbers of 757 for which the A321NEO is the best replacement is in the US, Europe and most other countries abandoned the 757 as they did not need the extra oomph.
The improved efficiency of the A321NEO is welcomed by all but if you do not need the extra range and payload its just more excess. The additional delay to the A321NEO was to provide additional range / payload, now if that is primarily targeted to the US market is it large enough to justify a FAL and what would be the benefit to Airbus? If they are moving to the Euro how much hedging in US Dollars do they need?
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:26 pm

as mentioned somewhere above, the long term strategy is to have long range in TLS and narrow body in HAM. Exception is the A380. As per current plans the A30X will be built exclusively in HAM, which is why I think if we will see a new FAL, it will be in HAM.
 
pwdalmech
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:41 am

I could see Airbus setting up an A320 FAL in Mobile, Alabama after they win another large order from a large US airline. I also see them moving the A330 FAL line to Mobile once the A350 goes into production.
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting pwdalmech (Reply 18):
I could see Airbus setting up an A320 FAL in Mobile, Alabama after they win another large order from a large US airline. I also see them moving the A330 FAL line to Mobile once the A350 goes into production.

I had similar thoughts, it took an order of around 150 frames to get the FAL in China built. I think they have enough orders from the US, and if you look at all potential order from North and South America, I think there is more than enough demand to justify opening up the production line.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:48 am

Quoting pwdalmech (Reply 18):
I could see Airbus setting up an A320 FAL in Mobile, Alabama after they win another large order from a large US airline.
Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
I think there is more than enough demand to justify opening up the production line.

I'm not sure the China example is really relevant to opening an assembly line in the US. The US carriers don't care where the plane is built (they're been ordering planes built in Canada, Brazil, and Europe for decades).

China's government is heavily involved in the aircraft purchasing process so I can see how they'd bargain a FAL into the order, but that just isn't how the US carriers would work. Given that it only takes ~6 hours to move the plane from Europe to the US there's nothing about a big US order that should spur Airbus to put a FAL in the US.

Airbus should put it where it makes business sense...that includes orders you might win (and orders you might lose), proxmity to existing resources and engineering, integration into the production system, etc., etc. If the 787 has taught anybody anything, it's that distributing your production system to widely is not conducive to high production rates.

Tom.
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:43 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 20):
Given that it only takes ~6 hours to move the plane from Europe to the US there's nothing about a big US order that should spur Airbus to put a FAL in the US.

Apart from putting more of the production costs in USD rather than EUR and the ability to use surface transport efficiently in both directions, and the ability to continue production through the Christmas period where things normally shut down in Europe.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:01 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
Apart from putting more of the production costs in USD rather than EUR and the ability to use surface transport efficiently in both directions, and the ability to continue production through the Christmas period where things normally shut down in Europe.

labour is less than 10% of the actual production cost, therefore it makes sense to buy parts in $$$ but not soooo much to pay wages in $$$, at least if you can offset that by saving somewhere else, e.g. transportation...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:20 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 3):
The FAL in China is all done by ship, I would think any further development would include more surface transport.
Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
Apart from putting more of the production costs in USD rather than EUR and the ability to use surface transport efficiently in both directions

Parts for the Chinese assembly line are ferried by barge from Finkenwerder/ to the container port in Hamburg whch is just a few kilometer upstream where they are loaded on regular container ships. A380 sections that move between XFW and TLS are transported by ship and the two plants on the Loire estuary and XFW would be the natural places for further extension.
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par13del
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
Apart from putting more of the production costs in USD rather than EUR and the ability to use surface transport efficiently in both directions, and the ability to continue production through the Christmas period where things normally shut down in Europe.

Which then flies in the face of the latest rumours that Airbus is considering switching from the USD to the EURO for their a/c pricing and sales. As you have always mentioned, a number of Airbus parts are already sourced from the USA, putting more in the US when a switch is being contemplated would seem weird, as for increasing production in the US, let's remember the bashing the American people recently got during their debt debate, I would think Airbus shareholders and supporters would think twice unless they were only blowing smoke.
As for the Christmas period, the entire company was / is built around those European practices, it has certainely not hurt Airbus in getting to where they are today so if it ain't broke, why fix it, would it not be better to attempt to change the European culture and have Europeans take less days off like the Americans, or is that something that cannot attempt.
 
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 14):
The US government purchases hugh numbers of military items from foreign suppliers from a/c to missiles, to vehicles.

The typical American voter doesn't know and doesn't even dream of this.

Quoting par13del (Reply 14):
Presently US Airways is listed as the largest single Airbus a/c operator in the world with around 232 a/c, that is a single carrier, when you add in UA, DL, B6, F9 and others the USA as a country is probably largest operator of Airbus a/c

The typical American passengers and voter doesn't know and probably doesn't even dream of this.
In addition, the typicall Amercian voter doesn't know or dream that Boeing's brand spanking new 787 is mostly built by China/Japan/S.Korea/Europe.
http://blogs.apics.org/ypst/wp-conte...0/104664-Boeing_787_DreamLiner.gif
In time of populist politics like the present, perception is king and those who make the most noise usually get more attention. That is why we don't have an A330 assembly line in Mobile.
 
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par13del
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:08 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
The typical American voter doesn't know and doesn't even dream of this.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
The typical American passengers and voter doesn't know and probably doesn't even dream of this.

Unfortunately, there are some folks who seem to think Americans care, perception and reality.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
That is why we don't have an A330 assembly line in Mobile.

I would say because you don't need it, other countries import finished goods from the US and the US does as well, no need for Airbus to shift jobs from Europe to the US to build tanker a/c.
Other than providing assembly type jobs, their is no transfer of technology to the USA, after all , if that were the case, GM and Ford quality would have increased decades ago when Japanene and European auto firms opened up factories.
Unlike a number of other countries, plant investment in the US is primarilly a commercial venture done by private companies and states looking for local jobs, their is no federal government involved making it a national venture that must benefit the nation.
 
r2rho
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
Apart from putting more of the production costs in USD rather than EUR and the ability to use surface transport efficiently in both directions,

Indeed, it would give them more room to play with production rates - depending on the exchange rate, they could shift assembly between US and EU to partially balance out exchange rate fluctuations.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 17):
As per current plans the A30X will be built exclusively in HAM, which is why I think if we will see a new FAL, it will be in HAM.

That's the plan, but by the time the A30X enters service around 2025-27, with a huge Indian & Chinese middle class wanting to fly, I doubt that a single FAL will be able to meet world demand.
In any case, I see a problem of physical space if they were to add a FAL to XFW. It would likely require claiming more land from the river or buying adjacent properties. For the same time, cost and legal battles needed to do that, they could have 3 FALs in China.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 24):
would it not be better to attempt to change the European culture and have Europeans take less days off like the Americans, or is that something that cannot attempt.

At least we have culture in Europe, one could answer. Now, it is not only the Europeans, we have, from Chinese New Year over Muslim, Jewish and Christian holidays to various public holidays all over the world really little time where all of the global workforce is putting things together at the same time. It is soimetoimes a nuisance, especially when dealing with Australia where everything seems to close down Dec 15 and opening up when Chinese New Year is over but, it works.

Simply becaise someone is working somewhere all the time and if it only are the managers keeping matters afloat. A company with global customers and operations, be that Airbus, Boeing or a freight forwarder, can deal with such matters and before Europeans get less days off, Americans will get more holidays.
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airbazar
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 26):
I would say because you don't need it, other countries import finished goods from the US and the US does as well, no need for Airbus to shift jobs from Europe to the US to build tanker a/c.

I'm pretty sure that winning the Air Force contract was dependent on building the tanker in the US.

Quoting par13del (Reply 26):
Unfortunately, there are some folks who seem to think Americans care, perception and reality.

I never said they don't care. I said they don't know.
But when EADS won the contract, Boeing made a huge fuss based on the A330 not being "American" when their own airplanes are as American as Airbuse's
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 27):
That's the plan, but by the time the A30X enters service around 2025-27, with a huge Indian & Chinese middle class wanting to fly, I doubt that a single FAL will be able to meet world demand.
In any case, I see a problem of physical space if they were to add a FAL to XFW. It would likely require claiming more land from the river or buying adjacent properties. For the same time, cost and legal battles needed to do that, they could have 3 FALs in China.

I don't expect the A30X to arrive before 2030 earliest.
Noone said "one" FAL, since Airbus currently has 4. Therefore I expect at least 3 in HAM in future either way.

I don't think new land is needed, there is still plenty left and the one that was gained from the Elbe can only be used for A380 production and nothing else.

Besides, what the BoM wants and what they can politically achieve are never the same. Mind you Airbus has very strong unions in both France and Germany and Sarkozy and Merkel will know how to avoid expanding the China FAL....
 
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par13del
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
I'm pretty sure that winning the Air Force contract was dependent on building the tanker in the US.

I believe Airbus offered that to get a strong local base of support, don't recall reading such a demand in the RFP.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
But when EADS won the contract, Boeing made a huge fuss based on the A330 not being "American" when their own airplanes are as American as Airbuse's

And Airbus made noise about the US content already in the A330, its what PR folk do, make noise. The GAO did not find errors in the EADS win because Boeing made noise, but because the Air Force screwed up the process.

The USA is already a large market to justify a FAL if they really want one, with 200+ a/c in US Airways inventory they will not be looking at them switching to Boeing when those a/c come up for replacement, same applies to UA and DL, and if AA survives to take delivery the same will apply.
The talk of a switch to the Euro seems to lower the need from a currency hedge standpoint, simply increasing production in the US while employment is an issue in Europe is another story, especially when the clients are commercial companies with little or no government affiliation.
 
realsim
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
Also, there is SVQ. It would be an unexpected move, but the A400M is assembled there, it is already integrated into the Airbus logistics network, and it wouldn't be too hard to build an A320 FAL there.

My personal opinion is that if a new FAL is built, it should be built in the UK or in Spain, as both countries are part of Airbus and don't have any civil FAL. As we, in Spain, have the A400M FAL in Sevilla, the UK should be preferent, but for sure any new Airbus expansion in Spain would be more than welcomed here due to our current economic situation...
 
col
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:28 pm

We don't have an assembly line in Mobile because the Airbus tanker was never going to win. The whole tanker debacle was a waste of taxpayers (myself included) money in the end. They should have just leased the 767's from the Jail birds back in the day, then they would probably be in service by now and we would have actually saved millions of bucks.

The required assembly site needs to be capable of assembling 15 to 20 units per month. I do not believe any of the existing sites can make up for this quantity? I have never been to Hamburg/Toulouse, but I have seen Tianjin and it is only a 4/month site from memory.

Quoting par13del (Reply 31):
The USA is already a large market to justify a FAL if they really want one, with 200+ a/c in US Airways inventory

Maybe we can get a line set up in Malaysia, Air Asia will be the biggest user in the future.. .
Well maybe after CZ, but they already have their line.
 
baroque
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
especially when dealing with Australia where everything seems to close down Dec 15 and opening up when Chinese New Year is over but, it works.

I don't dispute your comment, but which industry is that? It is not that way in mine. I just checked my "in" file and we received samples originating in Australia in 2010 on 17 Dec (so sent either 16 or 15 Dec), 23 Dec, 29 Dec and 4 Jan 2011. So the oil industry is a bit busy over Christmas. Actually we employ a Buddhist and he quite likes to work on 25 and 26 Dec - there is a reason but I have forgotten what it is.

If your comment referred to Melbourne cup in first week of November, now that I would have understood!!

And as for the European August vacation, a large box of material just arrived this morning from Germany, so they have not entirely retired to the Baltic beaches or wherever they are supposed to go.

Now if you want things done in Ramadan, that can be a problem in a dominantly Muslim country. Elsewhere, the 24/7/52 groups seems to be winning.

With QF possibly buying up to 200 32xs and other monster buys, the places for new lines is getting a bit out of hand.

I wonder if Cameron is able to see an opportunity or if he is too busy berating the mobs. As for a US line, the advantages are obvious, but will a US line stop Airbus being French when the time comes to criticise it? When the French did the Vente de la Louisiane they should have kept an override! That would have solved all their problems.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
I don't dispute your comment, but which industry is that? It is not that way in mine. I just checked my "in" file and we received samples originating in Australia in 2010 on 17 Dec (s

I exaggerated a bit on purpose. If things have to be done they will be done I myself flew donw under between Christmas and New Years a couple of years ago to finish a project there with the full attandance of all the Aussies involved.
There are always jobs which have to be done even when everybody else is on holidays. In Germany it slows down really nbetween Crhistmas and the first week of January. Much more than in August

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
And as for the European August vacation, a large box of material just arrived this morning from Germany, so they have not entirely retired to the Baltic beaches or wherever they are supposed to go.

Summer holidays are spread here between June and August as every state has different times. One of the reasons of our success, federalism. Hamburg had summer school vacation between June 27 and August 5 and Nether saxony, where many workers of the Finkenwerder Plant live, ülis Stade an Varel/Nordenham between July 7 and August 17. Now, it takes careful planning especially with a company like Airbus having a product with high demand and a global customer base. They may slow down production but workers with children will have preference during the school holidays while others take their holidays outdise that time frame. Unlike France and Italy we do not shut down in August.

As to the location of FAL, cost wise it would be an advantage to extend the present sites rather than opening a new site. There will be times when scaling down is inevitable and that will be much easier to do than closing down a FAL somewhere in the UK or Spain.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:05 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Had always assumed that this would be at the tanker plant in the US but uk assembly sounds like a plan the government would be very keen to help out and airbus already had several plants where it could be located.
 checkmark 

Quoting col (Thread starter):
Another option would be to assemble in UK, a country with the know how to carry out assembly easily. There must be a number of sites capable of assembling 320's very easily.

 checkmark 



...one obvious site springs to mind....and only 40 miles from Broughton....

http://i51.tinypic.com/w16y55.jpg

Save Woodford!!!


Rgds

[Edited 2011-08-22 01:09:30]
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
jlb
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:44 am

Does anyone have pictures of the sub assemblies loaded on containerships for the China assembly line?
 
baroque
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:03 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
And as for the European August vacation, a large box of material just arrived this morning from Germany, so they have not entirely retired to the Baltic beaches or wherever they are supposed to go.

Summer holidays are spread here between June and August as every state has different times. One of the reasons of our success, federalism. Hamburg had summer school vacation between June 27 and August 5 and Nether saxony,

Well the company that sent me that work, also sent some last month, and in Sept the person concerned will be in Porto. But will they be on holiday, no, they will be organizing a course I am giving and then they will be in the chair as President of an International meeting. And having done that task myself in the past, it is not a holiday! So that seems to be July Aug and Sept they are not on their hols!

I just think we need to get away from the stereotypes. Germans have no sense of humour. Ok, so who wrote Till Eulenspiegel and his merry pranks? Mozart had no sense of humour. The French take cheese with their whine, not you, but give us all a break from the stereotypes. One of the reasons that stereotypes are funny these days (and they really are funny) is that they are so rare.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 36):

Save Woodford!!!

   Bet you could get an enormous bloody fan under those wings!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:28 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Bet you could get an enormous bloody fan under those wings!!

yes, but one has to support the Brits for their special kind of humour which was at it:s best again recently in "Straight & Level" where they reported about the re-enactment of the first part of the 40s which ended with the sentence: But it would be another week at least before swatches of London were ablaze....
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r2rho
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:06 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 32):
Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
Also, there is SVQ. It would be an unexpected move, but the A400M is assembled there, it is already integrated into the Airbus logistics network, and it wouldn't be too hard to build an A320 FAL there.

My personal opinion is that if a new FAL is built, it should be built in the UK or in Spain, as both countries are part of Airbus and don't have any civil FAL. As we, in Spain, have the A400M FAL in Sevilla, the UK should be preferent, but for sure any new Airbus expansion in Spain would be more than welcomed here due to our current economic situation...

I threw out SVQ as an "exotic" option since it is often forgotten. Truth is, Spain has no true political power within EADS, so SVQ doesn't stand the best chance.

As for the UK, after 20 years of dismantling their industrial heritage, it would be pretty big news to see them actually "build something" again, I wish them luck (honestly).

IMO, if additional FALs beyond XFW and TLS are built, TSN and BFM are first in line. I'm not saying it's the best business choice or my personal preference, I'm just saying it's what I expect to happen.

You have to keep in mind that politics play a big role when choosing FAL sites. We a-netters may know better, but in the eyes of the public, and of the politicians who govern us, an airplane comes from the country where it is assembled, regardless of where the components are sourced. This is why local assembly is also a popular item in military export deals - it gives the impression that the aircraft is built "in-house", even though they're just putting kits together. Airbus is not saving money by assembling in China - the high logistic costs outweigh the lower labor cost. But it is a smart political move. And the next FAL, if built, will also be a political move.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:37 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 40):
As for the UK, after 20 years of dismantling their industrial heritage, it would be pretty big news to see them actually "build something" again, I wish them luck (honestly).

Maybe I'm just hoping because I'm from the UK and in my lifetime have witnessed the death of nearly all heavy industry and manufacturing:

Cars - Austin Rover went from the 5th biggest car maker in the world to nothing in 30 years
Aerospace - no comercial jets produced in the UK anymore
Shipbuildign - the few remaining yards kept alive by occasional military orders
Steel & Coal -....

I could go on.

My attention was drawn as Cameron has been aggressively promoting manufacturing industry (visiting the Mini plant and the like) and I'm sure there would be some support.

I live near Broughton so would love to see new A320s on their test flights (if Broughton was selected in the UK).
 
PanHAM
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 40):
But it is a smart political move. And the next FAL, if built, will also be a political move.

Isn't it rather a condition set by politics? These conditions - a participation of the local industry of the buying country - are normal procedure in military projects-, as you said. In commerical airliners, this can be a conditon only set by countries like China, certainly not in a EU country or the USA. Boeing is offering to build a new FAL and invites for competition. Airbus has done that when XFW needed extension and they have the space now which Boeing does not have at Renton. . Local potlics can sweeten the deal only to a certain extend, within EU regulations here, restricted sometimes by union regulations in the USA.

There is space in XFW for a further FAL and the delivery centre could handle another couple of aircraft per month. The infrastructure is there, much would have to be duplicated in Mobile. Fuselage sections would have to go by ship one way and finally, AB would have to compete with CHS for skilled labour wich may be cheaper than in Germany if the US$/€ relation stays at the present level but certainly more expensive than in China.
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MCO2BRS
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:06 pm

I would love to see an FAL at FZO, but we all know there is no chance of that happening  
 
airbazar
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 31):
I believe Airbus offered that to get a strong local base of support, don't recall reading such a demand in the RFP.

Of course it wasn't written in the RFP. That would probably violate all sorts of WTO rules   But for such a politically high profile deal, does it really matter whether it was written in black and white or not? EADS had no chance of winning the contract had they not agreed to build it here, IMHO.
 
r2rho
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 8):
So, there is a high possibility of a 3rd FAL in Hamburg, for a total of 5 FAL between Hamburg, Toulouse, and China.

As a matter of fact, the 3rd XFW FAL line delivered its first aircraft last week. Currently XFW produces 21 per month, to be ramped up to 25 with the 3rd line. That leaves 17 to be distributed among TLS (14?) and TSN (3?) to achieve 42 per month.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):
Isn't it rather a condition set by politics? These conditions - a participation of the local industry of the buying country - are normal procedure in military projects-, as you said. In commerical airliners, this can be a conditon only set by countries like China, certainly not in a EU country or the USA. Boeing is offering to build a new FAL and invites for competition. Airbus has done that when XFW needed extension and they have the space now which Boeing does not have at Renton. . Local potlics can sweeten the deal only to a certain extend, within EU regulations here, restricted sometimes by union regulations in the USA.

I agree that for commercial deals, there is no need to establish a FAL. I was just trying to say that, in order to win military projects in the future, a civil FAL could be built in the US to gain a foothold and thus a stronger negotiating position ( = claiming itself as an "American" company) for future military deals.
 
Centre
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:07 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 45):
As a matter of fact, the 3rd XFW FAL line delivered its first aircraft last week. Currently XFW produces 21 per month, to be ramped up to 25 with the 3rd line. That leaves 17 to be distributed among TLS (14?) and TSN (3?) to achieve 42 per month.

Thanks for the follow up  
This is part of the planned 42 planes per month by late 2012.

http://atwonline.com/eco-aviation/ne...ction-rate-42-month-late-2012-0518

Quote:
Airbus currently produces 36 a month, a rate which is scheduled to increase to 38 in August 2011 and to 40 in the first quarter of 2012.

if higher production is desired (60 planes/month), I expect the cap that's been put on the TLS FAL to be relaxed along with maximizing the production rate at XFW and TSN.
Remember that the 14/month for TLS is not a line capacity rather than the politics of distributing the production, A.K.a working force between EADS countries.
With such a massive production capability, can we say that 60/month by 2018-2020 is no issue for Airbus?
with such a production rate, and other than the data from both airplanes (which we don't have yet), the A320NEO will have an edge over the 737RE in terms of sooner availability, of course assuming similar backlogs  .
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:31 am

Quoting Centre (Reply 46):
With such a massive production capability, can we say that 60/month by 2018-2020 is no issue for Airbus?

I have no doubt Airbus could be up for it, but the bigger question is the suppliers, especially as many key suppliers deliver to both A and B and thus their capacity would have to increase from ~70 shipsets to >100 at least
 
n1786b
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:34 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 44):
Of course it wasn't written in the RFP. That would probably violate all sorts of WTO rules

The WTO does not have any authority over contracts dealing with "national security" aka defense contracts.

Quoting Centre (Reply 46):

if higher production is desired (60 planes/month), I expect the cap that's been put on the TLS FAL to be relaxed along with maximizing the production rate at XFW and TSN.
Remember that the 14/month for TLS is not a line capacity rather than the politics of distributing the production, A.K.a working force between EADS countries.
With such a massive production capability, can we say that 60/month by 2018-2020 is no issue for Airbus?

The only issue is the supply chain.
 
Centre
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RE: Airbus Assembly Lines - Narrow Body

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:40 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 47):
I have no doubt Airbus could be up for it, but the bigger question is the suppliers, especially as many key suppliers deliver to both A and B and thus their capacity would have to increase from ~70 shipsets to >100 at least
Quoting n1786b (Reply 48):
The only issue is the supply chain

42/month is already set for next year, I believe the number is true for both A & B?

Can't the suppliers be ready for 60 in 6-8 years from now?
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.